It is a tragedy that four American citizens — Scott and Jean Adam, Phyllis Macay and Robert A. Riggle — died at the hands of Somali pirates. It will be a greater tragedy if the natural instinct to “do something” in retaliation for their deaths sparks more deaths. This is what I meant to say in my original post, and if I’d left it there, we’d all have been better off.
Back in 1898, during the McKinley Administration, when journalism as we know it was being invented, the U.S.S. Maine blew up in Havana harbor. In those days Cuba was Spain’s property, but Spain was on its last legs as “an imperial power”, and the relatively young and supposedly unsophisticated United States had sent the Maine to keep an eye on the “minor” Cuban rebellion taking place in what could be considered, under the Monroe Doctrine, America’s back yard. Although the cause of the Maine‘s sinking remains a mystery to this day, the media barons of 1898 “knew” that Spain was somehow responsible, and due to be punished. William Randolph Hearst is supposed to have told the reporters he dispatched to Cuba “You furnish the pictures, I’ll furnish the war.”
The ensuing Spanish-American War and America’s subsequent acquisition from Spain of “our” first overseas territories in Puerto Rico, Guam & the Philippines had its detractors (Mark Twain wrote ‘The War Prayer’ in response to pro-Philippine war editorializing). But they unquestionably established America as a global power. And McKinley’s “muscular, pro-active foreign policy” remains a favorite of modern American neocons.
113 years later, it could be argued that America has assumed what was then Spain’s status as a global enterprise pushed to the breaking point by imperial overreach and internal economic division. But we still take great pride in our status as The Last Superpower, capable of diverting multiple warships — “the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise , the guided-missile cruiser USS Leyte Gulf and the guided-missile destroyers USS Sterett and USS Bulkeley” — to monitor an American vessel seized by Somali pirates. The Americans on board the Quest had every right to travel where they chose, and the American government absolutely had a responsibility to attempt to protect its citizens under whatever circumstances. Piracy is a crime, as is murder, whatever the possible geopolitical extenuating circumstances.
When I first read about the deaths of these four Americans, my thoughts (fingers) jumped too quickly from the tragedy itself to its possible consequences as liable to be encouraged by The Other Side. Tribalism is a besetting error among political bloggers, and I am far from immune to its lure.
The many commentors whose good opinion I respect who were appalled by my first post (and that many I don’t that were delighted) convinced me that I should publish an apology. Consider this my apology, and the best explanation I can offer.
hilts
Well, better late than never.
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
Good on you AL.
General Stuck
My own motto is, If you are trying to create an ideological nexus, make sure it is sound, with a minimum of working parts, and doesn’t over reach, and never include the recent murders of anyone. Shit happens and we all step in it. say oops, sorry, until it happens again, and it always does when you write something down for public consumption, then rinse and repeat. No harm, no foul, no pain, no gain. or something.
shortstop
Wow. You just can’t stop yourself, huh?
Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people)
This incident is the first time I’ve heard of Somali pirates killing their hostages (the pirates are usually all about the ransom money so they keep their hostages alive). It makes no sense and I wonder what happened. I hope it isn’t the start of a new trend with the pirates. My heart goes out to the families of the dead.
Morbo
@shortstop: Take those brackets away and leave the sentence be. She’s saying that the people who took her side of the argument convinced her that it probably wasn’t the right side.
The Dangerman
I think all sides recognize, correctly, that Somalia is a shithole and we had/have no business there.
About the only thing that can be done is identify the Pirate Motherships in international waters and do what it takes to neutralize them.
Splitting Image
A much appreciated clarification. Thanks.
Huego
Well done, AL.
guachi
I think it was incredible overkill to send four warships to save one little boat.
On the other hand, it does provide real-life training for a navy that has almost zero chance of being seriously tested. And on the high seas, the only protection anyone has is that which a country’s navy can project.
SiubhanDuinne
Thank you, Anne Laurie. That was not only gracious, it was informative :-)
Nicely done.
Cathie from Canada
There but for the grace of God go us all — its way too easy these days to put up a quick post or tweet or email or comment that doesn’t really say what we wanted to say — or, worse yet, says something stupid or short-sighted.
The humourist Peg Bracken once noted that when we do something resoundingly dumb, our one consolation is that at least we can serve as a bad example for everyone else.
General Stuck
@Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people):
They are maybe pissed at the long sentence given one of their comrades in the states. And these idiots are not professional, and most of them are teenagers with automatic weapons likely wired up from chewing khat all day. Anything could have set them off, or nothing.
MikeJ
@guachi: They weren’t sent to save one little boat. They were sent to save American citizens. I have no problem with the number of ships sent.
Arclite
Anne Laurie, I am in Hawaii, and up late. It is strange to me to see you post at this time, (almost 1AM your time) and yet post again at midnight or 1AM my time (5 or 6 AM your time). Do you never sleep?
shortstop
@Morbo:
If I take the brackets away, it isn’t a sentence and requires much rereading before its intent can be mined. But yes, you’re right. I originally thought she was complaining about people whose opinions she didn’t respect being delighted that she’d dropped the ball so badly. That assessment seems to be wrong and I retract it with apologies.
sfinny
I understand your feelings, in that ‘What were they thinking?’ was one my first thoughts on hearing the news. But the moments between thought and written word are sometimes too quick for reflection. Your first post seems initial, while this one seems reflected upon.
All said, I am still amazed that we are dealing with such deadly piracy. Didn’t we go to the shores of Tripoli to deal with that years ago? {sarcasm meant about Tripoli}
ETA: damn edit went wrong, tried again.
Nalbar
I had no problem at all with the original post.
.
Arundel
At least to me, you don’t have to apologize, Anne Laurie. It’s the immediacy of blogging that makes it dynamic, it’s why we keep re-visiting our favorite sites as events unfold throughout a day. (And Lordy is it just me or do things seem to be unfolding all over the place at an accelerated pace?)
Can’t say I’m behind the idea of this tragedy being a causus belli for ulterior purpose. But I can utterly relate to thinking aloud online, wondering, then re-considering. It’s part of the conversation of the Internet, to put out an intriguing or controversial idea one had, see what people say, go from there. You didn’t fail at blogging, I think you sent out an idea and got a conversation going. It was utterly in good faith, don’t beat yourself up about it.
Anne Laurie
@Arclite: Since I’m not employed for money right now, I’ve drifted into a nightowl pattern that serendipitously allows me to cover the late night shift. If you’re old or a tv addict, you might remember the little signature caricature at the end of every Carol Burnett show, the charlady busily sweeping up the day’s detritus…
aliasofwestgate
@Anne Laurie: I’m not old but i remember that! /grin/ But it was either on rerun or i was up late as a kidlet when it was still on in the 80s. All i know is that i remember it, and i’m only 33. (not so much tv addict as having the geek audio memory that remembers everything, and i always loved the Carol Burnett Show’s ending credits theme)
Great image to use ^_^
Another Commenter at Balloon Juice (fka Bella Q)
@Anne Laurie: But I’m neither old, nor a TV addict (hell, I have adamantly not owned a TV since 1999), and I remember her. Oh, wait.
Nice post, AL. I knew what you meant earlier, though, and was not appalled.
HE Pennypacker, Wealthy Industrialist
Anne, thanks so much for that link to the War Prayer. Many years ago I saw some enactment of that on TV, and though it said it was based on Mark Twain I could never find the text (these were pre-internet days alas). And I always wondered where I could find the text of that speech. It was so impactful — when the actor said “Amen!” he was screaming it at the congregation. It said so much to me about the dissonance between what accepted religion says about peace but willfully ignores about war.
M. Bouffant
I just wondered why Jesus didn’t protect these people who were so busy shoving/cramming/ramming his silly book down the throats of the rest of the world.
eemom
@Nalbar:
I didn’t either, and I defended it. Guess that makes me disrespectable. Oh well.
Groupthink rules, here as everywhere else.
El Cid
The US didn’t go to war in Cuba to fight Spain. It went there to fight Cubans.
The US went in to defeat the Cuban forces who had fought off the Spanish, as it was the perfect time to take the island from the weakened local forces and it was easy enough to send the nearly defeated Spanish away.
I’m sorry, I mean, the US got involved to protect US citizens who were there.
Cubans had finally won their independence after multiple wars over the last of the 19th century, just in time for the US to steal it from them. After all, Cuba was located in a fantastic place and had all sorts of resources the US could take. US leaders has said this over and over and over and over and over. “Ripe fruit” and all.
And what power would want another place in the Caribbean where slave and peasant and criole and even allied Spanish could fight as equals and intend to govern themselves? (I.e., other than Haiti, now crushed by France’s extortion of payback?)
They were just convenient playthings for the US and pro-imperialist propagandists to use to decry Spanish cruelty and gain support for taking the island. Perhaps US officials and Hearst could have made up stories about how the Spanish were throwing babies out of incubators.
Hearst didn’t create the desire for war: but he did create the popular pressure for immediacy. McKinley disn’t even want to go along with all the other rich and powerful business and political interests in taking the island. Hearst used already existing American fascination with these comparatively tiny and badly armed (hey, we did enforce an embargo against people here trying to send the Cubans arms) native force defeated hundreds of thousands of Spanish troops. It was a great story of plucky simple people facing terrible odds.
Political and economic leaders in the US weren’t going to sit by for long and let black and criole Cuba defeat a European power and govern such a desired bit of real estate, particularly so close to Florida.
The US invaded and took Cuba by attacking Cuban forces — not by fighting the Spanish. And at the perfect time, too.
Yutsano
@El Cid:
IIRC a large deposit of undersea (but still relatively easily accessible) oil was recently discovered in Cuban territorial waters. Chavez was salivating to assist in its exploitation, but the US said no way senor. We’ve always been pretty damn good at fucking the Cubans.
@AL: we are all human. You learn, you adapt, you get a good podiatrist if necessary (mine is on speed dial), and you move forward. But a good mea culpa never hurts.
El Cid
@eemom: I never care what any gaggle of commenters think. Admittedly, at some point I might lose interest. Well, that happens anyway. But if someone, say, disagrees with my insistence that a big part of this story is that you don’t simply live by the way you think the world ought be and disregard clear patterns and warnings of danger, that’s too bad, and they’re not one tiny bit more moral than me for noting that aspect. I’ve known people who live in areas near guerrilla or death squad or frequently murderous military activity. They’ve either lost people close to them or are a step away from someone who has. They have lots of opinions and views on the whole situation, including the consequences of outsiders wandering in. If there were an answer to be found [merely] in counter-insurgency or police escalation [fantasizing for a moment that these forces weren’t destructive and dangerous in themselves], they’d be happy for it. But there apparently isn’t, so it ends up being a complicated subject, and by philosophy or brute practicality begin favoring approaches which address a big context. As we might drily say, “the sociological origins,” or as they might say, “the only things that will really help.”
eemom
oh look, here’s a twofer!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/health/policy/23health.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
This is the latest decision upholding the ACA, in a lawsuit filed by “the American Center for Law and Justice, a conservative Christian legal group.”
Now, we can haz BOTH (1) a whole new bunch of stupid posts laying odds on which Supreme Court justices will cast their ballots for Republican or Democrat……AND (2) a celebration of the total “American citizen” awesomeness of some wealthy Christian Yacht Club members whose death is vastly more tragic than any of the uncounted others that happened in that part of the world this week.
Mary G
Thank God. I was afraid you would be offended and leave us without pet rescue stories!
I figured out what you were talking about after looking at your links but I do appreciate this post.
I had the same reaction – OMG they’re going to start another damn war over this! I live north of Camp Pendleton and I feel like I have spent my life watching wars grind up good men. In the 60s my friends’ nice fun happy dads went off to Vietnam and some didn’t come back at all and most of those who did come back were mentally or physically broken.
Now some of these guys are going back to Iraq and Afghanistan four and five times. It’s hell on their families. I just want it to stop. We are wasting some of America’s best men and women for no good reason at all.
ranger3
This is why I stopped blogging.
El Cid
@Yutsano: Venezuela finally managed to reach Cuba with a fiber-optic cable system so that Cuba can have modern communications with the outside world not blocked by or begged from the US. Venezuela paid for it, and it’s not exactly popular within Venezuela.
Cuba is one of Chavez’ motivations which goes far beyond material interest. His appreciation for Fidel, whose leadership was so crucial to Chavez during the coup, is real.
Cuba, though, needs money. And even if Venezuela were involved in developing Cuba’s likely offshore reserves, it wouldn’t be doing it directly anyway. It’s companies from Spain and Italy and so forth which are doing the exploring and likely drilling.
Chavez has never trusted PDVSA (the state oil company) since the oil strike against him which nearly destroyed the economy. Hence its mostly political rather than business control. The Cuban government is filled with pretty sharp people. They notice that.
I’m not an oil industry expert or even close watcher. I just don’t see a Cuba-Venezuela partnership in developing the potentially huge offshore oil reserves for Cuba given the need for cash (with Venezuela, Cuba barters, a good deal but, it’s not cash) and the fact that this wouldn’t be Venezuela’s project but some Western (or Chinese) project with Cuba.
freelancer
Today’s been wonky and schizophrenic. Call it the perils of unintended consequences.
Yutsano
@El Cid:
And we have leverage over Spain and Italy to keep them from getting too involved in Cuba economically to be much help with, well, anything. We still haven’t punished them enough for daring to throw out our boy Bautista and setting up a Communist state right next door. How DARE they thwart the Monroe Doctrine so! I’m amazed we didn’t just nuke them off the planet when we could, the fallout for Florida notwithstanding.
China, though, could sweep in and do whatever the fuck it wanted. But it only sets up oil client states for its own domestic consumption.
@freelancer: I was just in the car for seven hours through rush hour traffic (not even in my home city!) and a moody kitten. Your wonkiness is duly noted.
freelancer
@Yutsano:
I ain’t wonky, I’m just a wiseass. Sucks about the traffic, but hopefully the kitty gives you some respite.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: I was waiting for you. You still around? Glad to know that you and Lexie survived the jaunt back home.
Ronc99
I don’t think an apology was required Anne. I absolutely loved your response.
As a Navy veteran, I must say it is NOT the military’s job to protect or rescue all these idiotic Americans traveling all around the world, especially dangerous places where these people were murdered. My fellow Americans need to WTFU!
Let’s face it, the media wouldn’t have given this story much play if they hadn’t been prostelyzing. Oh I read the comments on Anne’s last post and all that got angry at her blog, make me ILL. Bunch of snit-tards!
Okay, these Americans were peddling Bibles in pirate infested waters, which is stupid. So the typical Fox News nation reaction is supposed to be one of revenge or guilt? Why do I mention Fox News, because all of you who got upset over the blog remind me of your average Fox News viewer. Led by emotions, instead of reality.
I am so grateful that Anne and Angry Black Lady are blogging on this site. I very much enjoy their opinions. And to all of you who continue to bash Jane Hamsher and Digby? You ain’t worthy, so piss off!
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: I’m still about. The drive kinda wore me out, but Lexie at least is settling in. And she is indeed strong in the desire to become a momma. Fortunately she never got outside while at the ranch.
asiangrrlMN
@Yutsano: You hope! Mebbe she sneaked out whilst you were slumbering at night. Heh.
gnomedad
@General Stuck:
Well put.
Thanks for this, AL. Now if you were on the Dark Side, you’d have wailed about us violating your First Amendment rights and trying to ZOMG SILENCE YOU!
asiangrrlMN
FYWPWAVRPFRITGDE!
@Yutsano: Now that I know you’re fine, I gotta crash. Night!
Yutsano
@asiangrrlMN: Unpossible. I had the door and window shut the whole time. She never made it past the doors without being caged.
And I’ve heard of dog being a co-pilot, but cat is mine. I let her out in the car on the drive home. She promptly settled on my leg and chilled.
Zuzu's Petals
As to those dismissing these people as ignorant redstate Bible thumpers, the fact is that all were retired professionals (producer, dentist, veternarian, financial consultant). The Adamses were Catholics, and attended a church in Santa Monica, not exactly yer typical Falwell stomping grounds. The other two people were evidently once a couple but now traveled as friends, and sound like delightful folks.
As to the reason they chose this route, here’s the account from the group they had sailed with for a time:
Arclite
@Anne Laurie: *sigh* I am employed for money, but here I am working at midnight, having started at 8AM. I am thankful for my job, so I can provide for my family (I am the only working one currently), but sometimes the hours can be quite long. I hope you find employment soon, if that is your goal.
Mjaum
Given the US military’s track record with hostage rescue, what would you all say are the chances that the americans on board the boat were still alive when the shooting started?
MikeJ
@Mjaum: The US military did a great job of rescuing the crewmen from MV Maersk Alabama.
Keith G
@Zuzu’s Petals: Nonetheless, a bunch of wealthy hobbiests decided to make a dangerous pursuit even more dangerous.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/video/module.html?s=news01s484dq106e
Meanwhile, over eight children are killed by gunfire every day in the US and yet hilts and Huego express no outrage.
http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/protect-children-not-guns-report-2009.html
Alex S.
I have the gloomy opinion that IF (big if) Obama were to pursue a war of his own choice, it would be against Venezuela.
bob h
Anyone who takes a private yacht into those waters is out of his mind to begin with.
Kejia
Bless you. My initial reaction was similar to yours and I had to sternly remind myself to keep mouth shut and fingers off keyboard. As nasty as some of the comments were, I think it became a useful and occasionally cathartic discussion.
(Aside: We’ve yet to hear an apology on Washpo from Charles Lane for putting his words into Gabby Giffords’ mouth. Now there’s a failure!)
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
I’m picking a nit here, but no they didn’t and no it doesn’t.
MikeJ
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: They did have every right to travel in international waters, and the US has fought time and time again to protect its citizens on the seas. The War of 1812, the war against the Barbary corsairs, etc.
The line in the USMC song about the shores of Tripoli? That’s from fighting pirates.
Keith G
Now that I am fully awake, let me add one more thing:
A.L., you did not fail at blogging (except then you typed that silly title above). The best purpose of blogs like B-J, is to inspire discussions that allow for for the exploration of diverse opinions.
That you did.
And think of all the extra learning that happened as commenters scoured links to suss out details. Hell, there was even an on-going cartography debate. And, I now know more about those unfortunate souls than I would have without your intervention.
We now live in a world where too many folk immediately call for apologies when confronted with information they do not like. How sad.
Davebo
There’s a reason they call it a carrier group. In fact, I’m certain there was at least one attack submarine sent as well.
I had the same notion when I first read about the response, but you don’t peel a destroyer away from a carrier group. Send one, send them all.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
@MikeJ: Sorry, international waters wasn’t stated in the excerpt. If she’s referring to a specific route, I stand corrected.
As for the U.S.’s responsibility to protect citizens, no. The fact that it HAS, doesn’t translate into MUST. Even if pirates are involved.
lonesomerobot
@Zuzu’s Petals: They had another choice, which was to stay in the safety of the convoy they were with before they set out alone in waters where piracy is known to occur.
lonesomerobot
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: They had every right to be stupid and sail alone through waters where piracy is known to occur.
lonesomerobot
I asked it to Huego in John’s thread yesterday (he never answered): Anyone here want to sail these waters alone, given what you know about the threat of piracy there?
Or does the idea just sound stupid? Because it sure does to me.
JPL
Anne, I always enjoy your posts even if I don’t agree.
BTW..GMA is going to show a dogie on a treadmill. The dog looks a little like Rosie at first glance. Do we know where the blog boss is?
Emma
Everyone — and I mean everyone, even (or especially) the self-righteous — has moments like these. Oddly enough, I understood what you meant, rather than what you said.
celticdragonchick
@MikeJ:
Same here.
Skippy-san
If we do not go in and do something, this will not be the last time Americans get killed.Once word spreads that Americans are easy targets you can kill with impunity, the laws of nature will take its course.
Gloves should come off at long last. No more talking things to oblivion. Time to act. Time to put down a marker. These were Americans sailing in international waters-they had a right to do so.
We have the intel, the forces, and the training to do what needs to be done – a punitive expedition; preferably from the air and sea.
We have a track record of thousands of years of the written word of successful anti-piracy campaigns. Most involve two parallel efforts – (1) impact the economics that encourage it, (2) Kill the pirates when you find them, destroy their bases, homes, ships, and other support facilities.
Another thing we know is that we need to make the punishment severe for any killing of Americans. and/or taking of your nation’s property. I fear with all the other distractions Obama will not do anything-when the need is clear.
celticdragonchick
@Mjaum:
Spiffed that a little bit…
Doug Hill
@shortstop:
Did you see the crazy stuff the commenter Tim wrote agreeing with the first post?
celticdragonchick
@Skippy-san:
Hate to tell you, but we have already been in Somalia once before, and it didn’t go well for anybody involved. It may be possible to do searches on the high sea of suspected “mother ships” that are facilitating piracy, but it is next to impossible to stop and search every fishing boat leaving Somalia.
soonergrunt
Nicely done. Thank you.
stuckinred
What are you talking about?
soonergrunt
@Felanius Kootea (formerly Salt and freshly ground black people): It seems to me, after reading a report which quoted an interview from a pirate leader who claimed to be in touch with the pirates at the time the events transpired, that something happened to convince the pirates that attack by US forces was immediately immanent, so they killed the hostages.
Now, the nearest US ship was about 600 yards away, so sniping and machine-guns are out as a viable option. The Maersk Alabama incident was resolved by snipers at 70 meters.
They would’ve seen any small boats approaching them, and the report didn’t mention that. They thought they were under fire.
That, and the reports from the US Navy that the pirates fired at them with small arms and rpgs, followed by more gunfire on the sailboat (the killing of the hostages, most likely) leads me to BELIEVE that what transpired was that either one of the hostages tried to attack a pirate and got shot, or one of the pirates had an accidental discharge of his rifle. This MAY have caused the pirates to believe that they were under attack, and they responded by killing the hostages.
I do not know any more than anyone else here, but given all the variables, it seems to me to be the most likely case.
I may be completely wrong.
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: I think he means governments in general, not the US. Pirates have always been seen as outlaws, as in outside the law. Historically, they have been considered the enemies of all countries.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s a hell of a wide-ranging “we”, especially for a “Pirate Looks at 65” kinda guy!
Omnes Omnibus
@stuckinred: I am guessing that you are more of a metaphorical pirate though.
shortstop
@Doug Hill: I didn’t even read that comment thread until after I saw this one; I’d skimmed AL’s original post and thought no good could come of visiting that thread. But yes, I did eventually see it, and read Morbo’s comment, and that’s why I apologized immediately here for my wrongful characterization of AL’s sentence above.
soonergrunt
@Skippy-san:
Be my guest, buddy. You can start here.
Tim
@Keith G:
A-freaking-MEN
AL, sorry to see you felt you owed an apology of any kind to the delicate flowers here, calling for your head from their fainting couches. A clarification, a further explication? That would be cool, I suppose, but all this apologizing for thinking and debating and throwing out your initial thoughts is bullshit.
The edge is coming off this place fast.
stuckinred
@Omnes Omnibus: These days fo sho!
soonergrunt
Tell it!
Tim
@Doug Hill:
See…this is where the BJ Kool Kids completely show their hand. I did NOT at any point state that I AGREED or DISAGREED with the first post. But your hard on for outrage got in the way of you even noticing that little fact.
What I DID do was support AL’s privilege as a FP-er with credibility to write what she feels and thinks without being told to STFU and APOLOGIZE by self righteous mind reading geniuses like you.
Tim
@Skippy-san:
Don’t tell me: You work for the Military Industrial Complex, right?
soonergrunt
@Tim: How, exactly does that privilege to write whatever she feels and thinks exempt her from being told that on that particular post, she was wrong? People tell John Cole that here and it’s his site.
You’re one of those sad little fractions of a man that waits until the leader says something and then you pip up with a ‘right on, boss!’ Real paragon of intellectual freedom, you are. The type of guy who hides in the bathroom at work with your feet up on the toilet and then slips notes on the overheard conversations under the boss’ door.
Paul in KY
I’m sure someone has already pointed this out, but the Maine’s sinking is not a ‘mystery to this day’. It is apparent from the wreckage that there was a coal bunker explosion. The explosion occured within the ship, as the warped hull plates show. The coal bunker was mostly empty, which is when there was the highest chance of coal dust combusting.
Other than that, it was a nice post.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
What in living hell are you going on about…?
Tuttle
…capable of diverting multiple warships—“the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise , the guided-missile cruiser USS Leyte Gulf and the guided-missile destroyers USS Sterett and USS Bulkeley”—to monitor an American vessel seized by Somali pirates.
Where did you read that they were “diverted”? The article simply says “involved”.
Carrier Strike Group 12, consisting of the Enterprise, the Leyte Gulf and the Bulkeley (among others), and Destroyer Squadron 9, of which the Sterett is a member, are both deployed to the 5th Fleet which covers the Persian Gulf, Red Sea and Indian Ocean.
Info is, for obvious reasons, spotty. But it looks like CSG-12 was just arriving in theatre (it deployed from Norfolk in mid January) and that DESRON-9 is on active anti-piracy patrol in the area.
Tim
Is that what you freaks were doing in that thread last night? Just calmly, politely, respectuflly disagreeing with AL?
Bullshit. Personal and professional insults, calls for banning, wailing about hurt feelings and delicate, offended sensibilities were the norm, and you are one of the worst.
All of it just another way for you to say “STFU, how dare you write anything I disagree with, and if you do, I will attribute the WORST possible motivations,” etc. ad infinitum.
You all were jerking off all over your self righteousness again. Just as you’re doing now.
I was sad to see AL capitulate, though I figured it was coming. AS this blog ages, it is beginning to constrict, losing its earlier edge of anarchy; succumbing to internal politics.
As small thinkers like you intensify your fantasy that BJ is your “community,” you continue to exclude and shun and abuse those who dare to think and write opinions that fall outside the parameters of what I guess you see as YOUR neighborhood or something, and thus drive them away.
But after you’ve driven away everyone willing to energetically disagree with the BJ groupthink, who will write the posts that get your self-regarding digital penises and clitorises all pumped up with outrage?
Hawes
OT FYI: The USS Maine’s explosion and sinking isn’t really a mystery. They put the powder magazine next to the boiler room. No word on whether or not is was a no-bid Halliburton contract or not. Admiral Rickover pretty much placed the blame on design flaw.
As far as pirates go, yes, it’s tragic that these people died doing good works. It’s a tragic world, isn’t it? Somalia as a whole is one big sucking tragedy.
You’re right that this could be used as a war drum for the neo-cons to beat upon, but luckily the news is busy elsewhere and these four people can just be bereaved family members and friends and not totems for bloodthirsty exceptionalists.
eemom
@Zuzu’s Petals:
I didn’t dismiss them as “ignorant redstate Bible thumpers.” I said I don’t like proseletyzers, and I don’t like proselytizers even when they are “retired professionals,” Catholics, “delightful folks”, and hipsters from Santa Monica.
“Ignorant red-state Bible thumpers” aren’t usually rich enough to spend their lives sailing around the Indian Ocean in yachts, so there’s that, also.
All in all, the implication of your post is pretty nauseating. Maybe there’s something to the Teatards ranting about “elitism,” after all.
Mjaum
@celticdragonchick:
That’s not a nice way to characterize the US navy. More accurate in form than content, I hope.
But the question still stands.
Smurfhole
@eemom:
Who were they proselytizing to in the middle of the ocean again?
It’s only okay to blame the victim when we don’t like the victim’s religious views. If someone on Red State posted that a Muslim or an atheist deserved to get kidnapped and shot on the high seas by virtue of committing the horrendous crime of happening to be there, it would piss you off to no end. But it’s okay to do that when it’s a Christian, isn’t it?
Zuzu's Petals
@Keith G:
Nonetheless, you don’t know all the facts. But that evidently won’t stop you from making cheap pronouncements. Go for the gusto!
Zuzu's Petals
@eemom:
I’m not sure I even saw your post, but you go right ahead and make it all about you. That would be a surprise.
Stefan
I think it was incredible overkill to send four warships to save one little boat.
Obviously you are a trained naval sailor with much experience in combat operations on the high seas. How many ships and of what class would you have sent? Please be specific and show your work.
soonergrunt
@Tim: You really are the sad little fraction of a man I see you as.
Where did I say anything to or about Anne Laurie in that thread other than once saying that she was wrong and I thought it was beneath her? I do recall calling out Southern Beale’s bullshit passive-aggressive “maybe I shouldn’t say this” weaselly post. That’s the point where you announced you had an issue with me. Well, if you’re all about the right be weaselly and passive-aggressive, then you’re not worth the effort to type out the phrase “go fuck yourself you weaselly passive-aggressive shitbird.”
In John’s “I Disagree” thread, I said that grown ups apologize.
I don’t know what went up your ass sideways, and I don’t particularly care. You strike me as pretending to be one of those people who thinks that people can say whatever they want without being held responsible for it. I say pretending because your initial post, and every post after that has been one giant sustained front-pager knob-slobbing. Conversations are two way streets, and it’s not censorship to tell someone they were wrong or just plain out of line. But you leap to the defense of (and only of) the front pager who stepped in the rhetorical shit yesterday to protect her against the conversation she started. You, being the prissy little teacher’s pet bitch that you are, didn’t say word one to the other front pager who called it in the original thread, nor did you call out John when he posted a thread on that subject last night.
In the mean time, my only response to Anne Laurie in this thread was “Nicely done. Thank you.”
You should think about what Anne Laurie said in the top of this thread:
I may or may not be one of the first group, but you damn sure are one of the second.
virag
you had no reason to apologize. being a jeebus-tard can be deadly.
Joe from Reality
This is hilarious and sad. You were shamed into stating that the lives of 4 Americans are more important that the lives of thousands of Somalis.
You weren’t arguing that missionaries should be murdered. You were rightly picking up on the fact that the military is using the fear of piracy to justify its presence in the region.
What you didn’t point out and what is equally relevant is that the U.S. war on Somali killed tens of thousands of people and created the conditions that lead to piracy. Plus, the U.S.’s aggressive tactics also probably lead to these people’s deaths.
Your critics don’t care about the tens of thousands of dead Somalis-in fact, they probably support the illegal wars and murders. It’s hypocritical.
American lives are not worth more than Somali lives. Anyone that is offended should preface any comments by lamenting the fact the U.S. killed so many Somalis and of course none of them do.
Skippy-san
@73 soonergrunt. I served 29 years in the United States Navy and would gladly go back on active duty if required. I paid my dues and served my country, thank you very much.
@93 Yes-the lives of Americans are worth a lot more than any number of Somalians. I do not apologize for that sentiment.
Joe from Reality
I’m waiting for the apology from America for waging a secret and illegal war on Somalia.
Tens of thousands of people were killed and the only stable government Somalia has had in the last two decades was destroyed and now it is a lawless region. Where is the apology? Hell, most won’t even acknowledge the U.S. crimes.
Sounds like these 4 people will get “justice”. The mighty U.S. military shot the pirates up and captured the rest.
How about some justice now for Somalia? How about reparations for our war crimes? How about prosecuting those responsible for the illegal U.S. war against Somalia?
What’s that good liberals? You’re only outraged when an innocent white Christian dies?
Joe from Reality
@93 Yes-the lives of Americans are worth a lot more than any number of Somalians. I do not apologize for that sentiment.
Thank you for your honesty you monster.
Ironically, I bet the Christian victims (assuming they were devout Catholics) respected life more than those that want to avenge their deaths.
You literally are defending the right to murder tens of thousands of people. The sad thing is this is the attitude our entire country has taken–this recent illegal war has been excised from our consciousness.
Vince CA
I don’t believe an apology is required or even necessary. I disagree with John Cole and his analogy. Walking through the streets of a city with laws has a completely different level of expectation of justice than traveling in pirate-invested lawless lands.
I also don’t believe that the US needed to deploy the full might of its naval power to protect a small non-commercial yacht actively flirting with disaster. I have enough problems with folks in the US thinking we should be the world police, and now the rest of the world is going to think that we are the world police. No good comes of this How long before other naval powers start deploying their own fleets to pirate-invested waters to secure their own economic interests?
Also, I personally think the couple (but not their crew) got exactly what they wanted: martyrdom. It’s been nearly impossible to get oneself properly martyred as a xtian since late antiquity, and these spirited evangelists forged a new path for others to follow and show their true devotion to christ. Well done.
Joe from Reality
Skippy-san,
I suppose Italy should summarily execute the C.I.A. agents that kidnapped and tortured people from Italy, no? Italy needs to teach these criminals a lesson. It’s the law of nature–if they aren’t crushed they will simply act with impunity. Their bases, their friends, their family, and their homes need to be absolutely destroyed to teach them a lesson.
And, actually, same thing with Somalia. They are victims of an illegal war. They should teach their criminal aggressors a lesson by summarily executing any American, eh?
And actually, as low of a standard as it is, the pirates seem to be more honorable than the Americans. At least they appear to be more motivated by protecting their waters and getting payments, not by revenge or domination. America simply killed tens of thousands of people because it didn’t like the government the people in that country chose for themselves. So once again, the U.S. actions are the most primal and bloodthirsty, but as always, we play the eternal victim. We, the most powerful nation on Earth and the one most ready to use violence, is a victim of Somalia–not the other way around.
How disgusting that the author is shamed into putting American life on a pedestal while everyone covers up the brutal and sick crimes of America.
I am ashamed to be an American. What a sick country.
eemom
@Zuzu’s Petals:
Evidently the fact that they were delightful, professional, rich Catholics from Santa Monica, instead of ignorant rednecks, is the only fact YOU need to know to lament their deaths.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
what are you going on about again?
I stand by my general gist: commenters such as you thrive on telling your opponents to “shut the fuck up, how dare you?”
eemom
@Joe from Reality:
Seconded.
Also, click on “Skippy-san’s” name and behold his blog. Kind of tells you all you need to know about where he’s coming from.
Tim
@Skippy-san:
SO GO ALREADY. What a cheap dodge. Why should you wait until you are “required?” Where’s your patriotism? Why haven’t you re-upped out of your own awesome sense of duty to American and its endless war machine? Why wouldn’t you continue to serve instead of sucking the socialist teet on your generous military retirement?
You didn’t “serve your country.” You served the corpratists and warmongers who run it. .
Can you provide some clarification/explication on this topic? How and in what way is an American life “worth more” than a Somali’s?
soonergrunt
@Joe from Reality:
Please emigrate, then. I hear that Somalia needs people with some kind of skills. You might have what they need, and you certainly seem to have a deep seated affection for the people and the place.
Zuzu's Petals
@eemom:
Non sequiturs being your strong suit and all.
soonergrunt
@Tim: Well, since you seem to be too dumb to live and haven’t figured it out from the plain language of the last post, I’m calling you an ass kissing teacher’s pet who would only ‘stand up’ for somebody like a Front Pager on this blog who doesn’t need to be ‘stood up for,’ and certainly wouldn’t call out somebody like another Front Pager on this blog, who from time to time might need to be stood up to.
I’m saying that you’re a sorry-ass, pathetic shit-stain of a human being who is just self-aware enough to realize that you are the quintessential kiss-up/kick-down kind of guy. You may or may not be decent enough to hate yourself for being that. I wouldn’t know, but I’m not counting on it.
Keith G
@Zuzu’s Petals: Show (with links)me where I went wrongon the facts and I will acknowledge your help in my enlightenment and make any appropriate apologies. I meant it.
Zuzu's Petals
@Keith G:
My point was that none of us really knows all the facts, and I for one would rather refrain from making those sorts of pronouncements without knowing more. And sorry, but I thought your second paragraph was just a plain cheapshot.
My opinion.
Tim
@soonergrunt:
ha ha ha…you’re an idiot. I’ve been kicking Cole in the shins regularly for five years here, you fool. I’m regularly denounced as a troll for doing so. If you paid attention to anyone’s comments but your own you’d know that.
I won’t address the remainder of this comment, which is the usual vile insults your type resorts to when challenged.
Skippy-san
I knew that would get a rise out of you folks. The facts are these:
1) The right of freedom to of navigation and right of transit are accepted by all civilized nations. The yacht was in international waters. If in international waters, then international law of the sea (and the treaties, etc that compose that) may apply. While the United States is not a party to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, it is a signatory to the predecessor to that Convention – the 1958 Convention on the Law of the Sea. Article 15 of the 1958 Convention
The U.S. would have been within its rights to kill all the pirates as they came into sight.
Remember that these pirates, who now range across the Indian Ocean, claim justification for their acts because of illegal fishing and dumping in Somali waters, neither of which the 4 Americans were involved with.
These people are criminals and what passes for a government in Somalia are providing them sanctuary. Unlike Iraq-they have taken an armed provocation agains the United States throught the vehicle of an attack on its citizenry. We have the legal right to respond with force to eliminate the threat.
As for my Naval Service-I was responded to what I perceived was a taunt from soonergrunt that I was some sort of a GOP chicken-hawk. I’m not-but the law prohibits me from returning to active duty short of a Presidential recall. Blame it on DOPMA.
Oh, and thanks for visiting my blog. I’ll be sure to remember you all kindly in my next post. :-)
soonergrunt
Uh, huh. Suuuuuure you have.
You’re a funny guy. I like your distorted sense of self for what it does for you. Helps you get through the days that you realize that you’re really just kind of sad and pathetic.
You hardly ever comment around here that I can see, so you must be doing it all by email.
yeah. That’s the ticket!
El Cid
@Skippy-san: No doubt. And it still is irresponsible for a vessel to enter such dangerous waters. Just as it is foolish for travelers to decide to visit Colombian areas infested with unlawfully armed and murderous groups such as the guerrillas.
There’s a huge difference between planning on the way things ought be and how a hypothetical US response could be and planning based on existing realities.
[And as noted above, these assumptions regarded the yacht’s activities are based entirely on press reports and therefore could be entirely wrong and inapplicable to such discussions. I doubt that, but it’s possible.]
El Cid
This is a set of assumptions which are entirely questionable.
It reminds me of the absolute arrogance and idiocy of the US’ decision — against all warnings of those vastly more experienced in those matters — to try to stabilize Somalia’s warlord battles and interruptions of aid by targeting the warlord Mohammed Farah Aideed.
I don’t give a shit who fantasized that if only we’d been there longer and if Clinton hadn’t ‘hollowed out the military’ (i.e., continuing the drawdown & base closings initiated under Bush Sr. after the USSR’s collapse) and if the media hadn’t been traitors and shown the American pilot dragged through the streets and so forth.
The notion that this decision would be presumed correct if made by the US navy is a weak one.
For example, the pirates’ homes and bases are interwoven with the same for non-pirate residents. It may sound all tuff guy to suggest the US move in and blow them all out of the water, but I think it’s unlikely they would, and I think they wouldn’t look forward to the international relations consequences.
It doesn’t seem likely to me that a clear and cleanly performed option for shutting down these wildly chaotic sets of smallboat pirates would be being avoided by the US Navy because of political reason, or because of the unpatriotic whinings of librul ay-leets on blog comments such as these.
After all, this is a situation where real money is involved in shipping. The US Navy (and its command by the President and SecDef and so forth) is not listening to Starbucks-sipping wimps, but to the multi-multi-billion dollar industries shuttling products through there.
On the other hand, it’s always cheap to say that some military objective is ‘no problem’ and that it only requires enough steely resolve and abandoned constraints and heavy machinery and action teams to take care of it.
Skippy-san
@111 El Cid.
I beg to differ. If the shipping companies would agree to it-we could convoy vessels through these waters, while at the same time finding and targeting their staging areas and re-supply points. Yes we would not get all of them-but convoying works. The US has proved that during the re-flag and the tanker war. The shipping companies don’t agree to it because it hikes their fuel costs.
I’d also question your first premise about Somalia in 1990’s versus now. Its two different propositions-but at least the Navy was more properly sized then than it is now. We are having to pursue this effort with one armed tied behind our back because the forces involved are not under a common ROE and common chain of command.
If we do nothing the problem is not going to stop-it is going to get worse. I agree with you about the prudence of traveling through the waters in yacht-and I think there are NOTMARS that discourage this-but at the same time there are not a lot of alternatives save for going the long way around Africa.