I am done blogging about Terri Schiavo, because it is clear that those who want to keep her alive are going to pay no attention to the medical experts who have diagnosed her, to her medical history, to the courts and their NUMEROUS rulings that have been upheld, to the evidence of her desire to die if she ever got in this situation, and to the wishes of her husband.
All of those are inconsequential when God is your copilot and you are charging hard towards a “Culture of Life,” whatever the hell that means. At any rate, there appears to be a subset of those who are part of Terri’s fight who are divorced from reality. When I quipped in the comments section that I was the last conservative, this was the response:
Yeah, you’re the last conservative, John. Don’t throw your shoulder while you’re patting yourself on the back, or your wife may decide that your quality of life has degraded to the point that you need to be starved to death.
You can’t debate that type of stupid, at least not honestly. Terri Schiavo is someone whose cerebral cortex was destroyed through hypoxic brain damage, receiving no oxygen for 15 minutes, resulting in the cerebral cortex atrophying to pulp and being replaced with cerebral fluid, leaving her bed bound with normal waking/sleeping hours. She is in a persistent vegetative state, with no concept of anything, since that aspect of her brain has been destroyed and will never be recreated through God or magic. She has only autonomic reactions, she can not swallow, and she is, other than the physical resemblence, not Terri Schiavo anymore.
When someone believes Terri Schiavo’s condition is the same thing as a ‘thrown shoulder,’ you are dealing with people who are living in an alternate reality. Really- it would do you just as well to debate Terri.
Patrick
Lets break this down to two different questions.
#1, is she in a persistent vegetative state now? Exams from different doctors have come to different conclusions. At this point, a court-ordered CT & MRI would help to determine the future. She may, in fact, be beyond salvage but should be allowed a more dignified death than starvation.
#2, should her loving husband, who denied physical therapy back in the 90’s when she was apparently still salvageable, who has tried as often as he could to end her life so he could get on with his next wife and their 1.5 kids (one already on the hoof, one more on the way) – have anything to say about what is in her best interests? No.
Scott Chaffin
Why can’t you debate it, bright boy? You keep talking rule of law, the supremacy of the courts, the science of the doctors, and most of all, the high holiness of the legal institution of marriage. Seems there is tons of room for debate that has nothing to do with Medicare, Christians, or any other red herring you want to throw into the mix.
Yeah, it’s hyperbole, which should be obvious to one as brilliant as you. Where’s the line *you* want to draw on the issue of euthanasia? Here, at 15 years of drooling unresponsiveness? Less? More? Why not let her live until her brain totally jellifies and everything does in fact shut down? Why not off her the second she became unresponsive? Should we just fire all the paramedics and EMTs? Or the long-term hospice-care type of people?
Yeah, we’re all stupid. You’re the one hiding behind court rulings and appelate laws and legal institutions, John, even though you’re constantly self-identifying as a conservative. So throw some of that magnificent conservative brain power at the obviously hyperbolic point being made, instead of generating more derogatory crap.
John Cole
Why can’t you debate it, bright boy? You keep talking rule of law, the supremacy of the courts, the science of the doctors, and most of all, the high holiness of the legal institution of marriage.
What, precisely, do you wish to debate, since the rule of law, medical science, the opinions of her doctors, and the wishes of her husband are not enough for you. Again- what do you want to debate?
Yeah, it’s hyperbole, which should be obvious to one as brilliant as you. Where’s the line *you* want to draw on the issue of euthanasia? Here, at 15 years of drooling unresponsiveness? Less? More? Why not let her live until her brain totally jellifies and everything does in fact shut down? Why not off her the second she became unresponsive? Should we just fire all the paramedics and EMTs? Or the long-term hospice-care type of people?
I’ll file this under hyperbole, too. I would suggest that there is a slight difference between fifteen years of nonresponsive existence in a persistent vegetative state and firing all paramedics and emt’s. I am experienceing no cognitive dissonance being in favor of one and not the other.
Yeah, we’re all stupid.
I don’t think youy are stupid by nature, as I read you occasionally. Your analogy was, however, exceptionally stupid.
You’re the one hiding behind court rulings and appelate laws and legal institutions, John, even though you’re constantly self-identifying as a conservative.
Interesting- I was unaware of the concept that as a conservative, I must be against courst and the rule of law. I was also unaware I was hiding behind them- I thougbht I was siding with them, as they have been exhaustive, extensive, and CONCLUSIVE, as well as having the benefit of adhering to already existing law.
So throw some of that magnificent conservative brain power at the obviously hyperbolic point being made, instead of generating more derogatory crap.
I don;t know what your point is, other than some stupid reference to a slippery slope. If you think I am in favor of euthanizing people who have thrown out their shoulder, I take but what I said earlier- you are stupid.
Kimmitt
The final lesson here: Write a goddamn living will.
ron
THERE… IS… NO… MONEY… LEFT…
she has life insurance
John Cole
She has no life insurance. Are you guys just making this shit up as you go along?
Scott Chaffin
I don’t know what your point is, other than some stupid reference to a slippery slope.
Jesus, but you’re obtuse. As a self-identified conservative, I would think that slippery-slope arguments would hold some intellectual interest. It’s crystal clear that you believe this is a stand-alone case with no bearing on anything else, anywhere, ever. I’m tempted to call that stupid, but I’ll go with ‘disinterested’, and wait for the fallout to impinge on your Egghead Fortress of Solitude.
John Cole
Actually, slippery slope arguments do pique my curiosity- as they are all logical fallacies and thus not really even an argument.
If you are telling me that the reason Mrs. Schiavo should be kept alive in perpetuity because of a slippery slope, you have de facto ceded the merits of the case. Mrs. Schiavo doesn’t need to be kept alive because her life is worth living, but because of non-existent future ramifications.
Now, in my book, that is obtuse. Do you have anything to add to this other than name-calling?
willyb
John:
I’m still trying to understand why you are spending so much intellectual capital on this issue. What is the harm of letting Terri Schiavo’s parents care for her? If she is in a persistent vegetative state, it would be consistent with your line of reasoning to conclude that Terri Schiavo (such as she is today) would have no position on whether she lived or died. The Terri Schiavo that had a position on this issue is gone.
I believe that the courts and the state should respect a person
Kimmitt
She has no life insurance. Are you guys just making this shit up as you go along?
Oh yes, yes they are. Bounce on over to RedState, but make sure you haven’t eaten much recently.
The Terri Schiavo that had a position on this issue is gone.
Good point — we should never respect the wishes of the deceased, as they are too dead to care. Reinstate the estate tax! Everyone’s an organ donor now!
Bob Smith
willyb – She told her husband she did not want to live in this type of situation. If my wife told me she did not want to live like that, and her parents wanted to stop me from carrying out MY WIFE’S wishes, I would fight them to the end as well.
This perverve side show being waged over this makes me sick.
Scott Chaffin
You might not like slippery slopes, but how do you feel about unintended consequences?
I’m telling you there is no compelling reason to kill someone laying in a hospital bed who only needs food and water to survive. There is no document authorizing it, legal, written, or otherwise. That alone should stay the hand of the executioner in the age of the Living Will.
I’m telling you that spousal privilege doesn’t trump the inalienable right to life, no matter how many judges or experts might say that it does.
I’m telling you that you don’t have the right to define life up or down to a particular level of utility, cognizance or coherence. That weas the point of the blown shoulder hyperbole.
I’m gonna call you one more name: bureaucrat. This is what bureaucrats do. “All the options have been exhausted that are defined in the handbook, so that’s that. Let’s move along, shall we?”
Anyhoo, it’s clear in my mind where you stand.
John Cole
I am not trying to define life- you are. I am merely allowing Terry Schiavo and Michael Schiavo to make their own decisions and to live by them.
When you and the rest of the comapssion fascists are done- none of us will be safe from your desires to protect whatever you have defined as ‘life.’ Talk about unintended consequences.
willyb
“She told her husband she did not want to live in this type of situation. If my wife told me she did not want to live like that, and her parents wanted to stop me from carrying out MY WIFE’S wishes, I would fight them to the end as well.
This perverve side show being waged over this makes me sick.”
How do you know this??? You do not. We have the word of her “husband”. How do you know she didn’t change her mind later on?
The Terri Schiavo that had a position on this issue is gone.
Good point — we should never respect the wishes of the deceased, as they are too dead to care. Reinstate the estate tax! Everyone’s an organ donor now!
This reaction to my point is ridiculous. I NEVER said never. I said we should honor properly documented wishes. There is a difference.
John Cole
Willyb- Actually, we know this from the COURT TESTIMONY that you all think is pointless.
You might actually read it, considering it is relevant to the discussion.
willyb
John Cole:
At the bottom of page 4 of 10 of the document you referenced in your link: “There are no written declarations by Terri Schiavo as to her intention with regard to this issue.”
This issue has been decided by a Judge, and not necessarily in accordance with the wishes of Terri Schiavo.
John Cole
No one is disputing there are no written declarations. No one ever has.
Go look up ‘strawman.’
Jeebus.
willyb
I don’t concede that you can easily refute my argument. Since the wishes of Terri Schiavo are the issue, how do you conclude that she wanted to her feeding tubes removed given her present circumstances? The judge reached this conclusion based on indirect information. Terri Schiavo never directly said what she wanted done given her present circumstances.
I ask again, what harm is being done by turning her care over to her parents? Based on your view of her mental capabilities, she certainly doesn
John Cole
The harm is that it defies the wishes of Terry and Michael Schiavo.
BumperStickerist
Hi John,
Based on the reasoning you supply here, could you go back and reexamine *every* *fucking* *thing* *you* *wrote* *about* *John* *Kerry* *and* *his* *Vietnam* *Service* —
The official record shows that Kerry served honorably.
Apparently, that’s enough.
Move on.
BumperStickerist
ps. once you get past the ‘eyeroll’ aspect you’ll realize the two situations are more similar than you, at first, think. Because, hey!, if it’s part of the official record, it must be true!!
Scott Chaffin
You’re not trying to define life? Bullshit — what the hell is this? and she is, other than the physical resemblence, not Terri Schiavo anymore. You keep pulling that out like it’s relevant. And I can get more if you want them. So what exactly is the point you’re making with that conclusion, if it’s not defining life?
The harm is that it defies the wishes of Terry and Michael Schiavo.
Now who’s the collectivist? You either respect the individual or you don’t. You do not, in this case. You’re relying on hearsay from an interested party with a financial interest at stake in the outcome. That alone should set your allegedly conservative alarm bells to ringing.
John Cole
I am not sure what you want me to take back. I wrote he was a bona fide military hero. More than once.
Your point?
John Cole
Now who’s the collectivist? You either respect the individual or you don’t. You do not, in this case. You’re relying on hearsay from an interested party with a financial interest at stake in the outcome. That alone should set your allegedly conservative alarm bells to ringing.
Respecting the wishes of Terry Schiavo makes me a collectivist?
And THERE IS NO FUCKING FINANCIAL INCENTIVE. Quit spreading those filthy lies, it’s fucking disgusting.
John Cole
From Terri’s parents website:
“MYTH: This is just a family battle over money.
FACT: In 1992, Terri was awarded nearly one million dollars by a malpractice jury and an out-of-court malpractice settlement which was designated for future medical expenses. Of these funds, less than $50,000 remains today. The financial records revealing how Terri
Oliver
John, ready to jump on our side yet? :)
Scott Chaffin
Uh, yeah, John…it does. Let’s remove the financial incentive bit to make this fair. Your argument is that a verbal agreement between two parties is sufficient to end the life of one of those parties.
One, the agreement is pure hearsay.
Two, the second party is not in a position to agree or disagree.
Now, you say that the unwritten, unverifiable agreement between those two parties overrides what is generally agreed, by Americans, to be an inalienable right of the individual (unless you want to continue to redefine what “life” is). So yes — you are a collectivist. In this sense…the ones with the power overrule, fuck that, can KILL, the ones without it.
Shut up, Oliver — go talk about the media or tits something equally inconsequential.
willyb
Respecting the wishes of Terry Schiavo makes me a collectivist?
Sorry John, but you are respecting the wishes of a judge. You have already conceded that there was no written declaration. How do you know what she wanted just prior to slipping into her current state??? Because her “husband” said that’s what she wanted?
Ernest Brown
Well, Ollie, since he takes the word of a perjeror over her own flesh and blood who love her, I guess he has.
The point is, what is going on with the refusal to have an autopsy and insistence on immediate cremation by Schiavo?
That alone would set off alarm bells in the head of anyone with a minimum of basic common sense. (yes, Ollie, that leaves out Cole and you)
If the goal is “death with dignity,” then, in order that Terri not die in vain, not to mention putting any ‘nonsense’ about Mr. Schiavo’s responsibility to rest, there SHOULD be an autopsy. Likewise, in order for the family to move forward and recognize that she’s gone, a funeral is in order.
The fact that Schiavo has wanted to kill her off since he lied about intending to take care of her during the malpractice trial, and to incinerate her corpse to stop any possible exhumation that might bring up forensic medical evidence, indicates to thinking people who respect justice that something is corrupt in Florida.
Oliver
GOP = facts hurt brain. You guys have finally gone off the rails.
willyb
GOP = facts hurt brain. You guys have finally gone off the rails.
I would think you would want to protect the mentally impaired…
TJ Jackson
There is no evidence of this woman’s wishes regarding her condition. We have the putative word of a putative spouse who has moved on to a new “spouse” and whose motivation appears to be money.
I hope your kids don’t decide thaqt one day you really didn’t wish to get water or food due to dementia or other condition. On the other hand I understand the military has decided to move the Gitmo detainees to Judge Greer’s jurisdiction so that the same methods may be employed on the detainees.
Shana Barrow
You guys are hilarious (barring Oliver and Mr. Cole, that is). Cole is suddenly not a Republican because he disagrees with your opinion on the Schiavo case? For Christ’s sake, stop taking yourselves so seriously.
BumperStickerist
Well … of all the people on the planet I think Oliver is the among the most starvation proof.
That said, John, your cites are from Jan/Feb ’04 … without going into a whole ‘Compare/ Contrast’ Jot vs. Tittle summary, a quick look through your treatment of the Swift Vets as their story ran their course *should* mimic your treatment of Terri’s parents …
People tend to leave ‘Foolish’ off the ‘Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds’ … and there’s no requirement for you to be consistent in your treatment. Rather, I think the two cases would show that your opinions change as you learn facts and consider evidence.
At the moment, imo, you’re in an Ollie-like state with regard to this.
fwiw – Ace’s posts of the past day or so summarize a lot points I would choose to bring.
Cheers.
John Cole
Bumper- I understand the point you are trying to make, but it just is stupid.
Trying to compare conversations Mr. Schiavo and others had with Terri regarding her desires to be ketpt alive on life support and other extraordinary means to multiple recoolections of incidents that occurred under fire is, well, stupid.
Scott Chaffin
There you go…it’s all stupid. Good to see we’re back to where we started. I recommend that you not blog on this subject anymore.
No, Shana, John is not a conservative on this issue. I personally didn’t say Republican…maybe someone else did. Maybe Ollie did.
Shana Barrow
I recommend that you not comment on this blog anymore if all you’re going to do is call Cole names because he doesn’t agree with you, Chaffin.
Doesn’t matter who said it. You’re acting like a moonbat. Next you WILL be questioning Cole’s membership in the Republican Party simply because he doesn’t fall in line with the general Republican consensus on the Schiavo case. Get a grip.
John Cole
Alright, Mr. Chaffin.
Explain to me how numerous different recollections of combat, experienced under fire, is the same thing as peaceful conversations Terry Schiavo had with her husband and others.
Please enighten us all.
Ernest Brown
BumperStickerist,
You’re exactly right. Ace and his commentators have done a great job articulating the ins and outs of this case.
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/072152.php
Ernest Brown
This is also a good post on the subject by Christopher Johnson:
http://mcj.bloghorn.com/1571#Comments
Nelson Muntz
Ha Ha.
Scott Chaffin
Not my contention, chief…call it stupid, if you want.
Shana, it kinda does matter who said it, since you’re the one complaining about it. But I’ll have you know that you’re using a slippery-slope argument, and those are not approved of here.
John Cole
Not my contention, chief…call it stupid, if you want.
As I, in the past two days, have come to recognize you as an authority on all things stupid, I will take your advice into consideration.
Shana Barrow
But I’ll have you know that you’re using a slippery-slope argument, and those are not approved of here.
Aye, and you’re the one who’s acting like an over-emotional prick about this, Chaffin, especially with your ad hominem attacks and strawmen, thus proving my point. So apparently logic doesn’t really matter in your case, because all that goes out the window when “compassionate conservatism” is what matters. Gimme a fucking break.
Tranny
nice blog and good post