Honestly, I can not figure out why reasonably intelligent liberals are debating with Bil Kristol about Obama’s minister and whether or not Obama was actually ina pew on the day his minister said something. This is the kind of debate about minutae retrograde morons like Dan Riehl want to have, because they can frame the debate in the following way:
The reality is, Jeremiah Wright shaped Obama’s religious philosophy. By Obama’s own statements we know his religious philosophy drives his political philosophy. What else is there to know?
At best, Obama is a cynical politician who used a religion to win broader appeal throughout South Chicago. At worst, he’s a racist – viewing the entire American experience primarily in shades of black and white.
As a sign of the end times, I am in full agreement with Amanda Marcotte:
Why the fuck do I know Obama’s minister’s name?! No, really. Why? I don’t know John McCain’s minister’s name. (But he does have a “spiritual guide”.) I don’t know Hillary Clinton’s minister’s name? I don’t know John Edwards’ minister’s name. I don’t know Mitt Romney’s minister’s name, and Romney was in a church that is actually out of the mainstream and “raised questions”. I don’t know George Bush’s minister’s name, but I know that whoever he is probably thinks I’m going to burn in hell for all eternity for the sin of being a feminist atheist.
Nothing that Rev. Jeremiah Wright said from the pulpit is, in an objective sense, any worse than damning the majority of the population to hell, which is a bare minimum requirement for the religious right assholes in this country that we’re supposed to show such great respect for because it’s their beliefs and they’re religious.
Assholes like, for example, Jimmie at the Sundries Shack. Here Jimmie, good Christian that he is, smears every congregant at Trinity:
You know what I don’t see there? I don’t see one single thing about winning people to Jesus. I don’t see anything there about preaching the Bible and leading people to the saving knowledge of Jesus’ immeasurable sacrifice for them. I see nothing there about salvation or atonement. I see nothing there that comes anywhere close to the Great Commission that Jesus Christ gave to all believers, everywhere.
All across the country, large portions of the Republican party weekly attend church services that believe in the wildest of things, and I don’t think I need to run down the list of James Dobson’s beliefs.
As I have said before, what strikes me the most about these attacks on Obama’s church is the brazenness of it all, but I guess it really shouldn’t. This is, after all, the same crew who chants “Support the troops” at every opportunity, but the moment someone in uniform says something that could even remotely interpreted as disagreeing with George Bush, they are immediately villified, ruined, and tossed aside.
But for some reason, I thought religion would be different, but we now see that it is not. According to modern Republican orthodoxy, it matters not that you are a Christian, church-going, tax-paying adult who believes in God and believes in helping his fellow man and engages in widespread charity for those who are not well off. No, according to the new rules, you have to be the right kind of Christian, and all you have to do is have a minister who wears a flag lapel pin and shares your hatred for the gay and has a fetish for the fetus. Watch out, Christians. You need to believe in God, act in a Christian manner, AND have the right kind of counter-tops. You have been warned.
That, to me, is the real story. Not the fact that Bill Kristol couldn’t fact check his ass with both hands.
*** Update ***
Hillary supporter and apparent fanatic patriot Paul Lukasiak lets me know it is all about America, not religion:
john, when will you realize that its not about religion, its about “God Damn America”. No one would care if Obama attended a church that was gay-positive, supportive of abortion rights, etc. Hell, Wright could have said just about anything about Bush, and it wouldn’t have been an issue. Its when he starts attacking the country itself that people sit up and take notice.
Fine. How about this:
Why should God Bless America? I don’t know, maybe the media should start asking prominent Republicans how they feel about the issue?
I am so sick and tired of people and their damned religions. For someone who really does not care about religion at all, this entire debate is absolutely maddening. I think all of you are funny, with your arguments about water into wine, coming back from the dead, virgin birth, funny underpants, arguments about circumcision, not eating meat on Friday and pork being unclean, the immorality of the gay, etc. Having to hear someone is not politically viable because they don’t adhere to the letter of one sect’s brand of fantasy is enough to make me want to throw up. you all can practice whatever you want, I don’t care what you think, but I am sick and tired of hearing about it. Really.
Foxhunter
Be careful John, the use of a phrase such as ‘hatred for the gay and fetish for the fetus’ makes you sound like Randi Rhodes. She’s been using the fetus fetish analogy for sometime now….
Good luck with the ear ache.
Incertus
Nah. It’s never been enough just to be a believer for these folks. It’s the same sort of “logic” that leads them to believe that getting rid of the wall between church and state would be a good thing for them, because God would never let a different religion actually gain power, and if He did, it would be only to test the faith of the true believers. See how that works?
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
OK, simple question:
If dying for one’s sake was an immeasurable sacrifice, why don’t we have 4000-and-counting new religions coming out with the saviors dying for us in Iraq every day?
I don’t see any single thing about them in the sermons from the land of the Hawks.
Matt Mc
To be the “right” kind of Republican Christian, you also have to believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth 6000 years ago and that all science is part of a massive Jewish conspiracy. But of course, Obama’s preacher is REALLY crazy.
Zifnab
Fixed. Huckabee got completely trashed for being “too” Christian during the primaries. McCain – some 8 years back – regularly bashed the Dobson/Falwell/Robertson crowd and when Romney/Guilianni was the presumptive wingnut pick, no one was allowed to forget McCain’s previous transgressions.
At this point, its about credibility. Conservatives are so wrong, so often, that its easier to just take a right wing meme and argue, “This didn’t even actually happen” than argue the philosophical merits of choosing a President based on his religious councilors. In terms of nuance and rhetoric, it is so much simpler to just look Bill Kristol in the eye and declare him ten-times a liar. The guy already has a reputation as a liar. His philosophy is so alien and toxic, you can’t begin to relate to it. And arguing historical facts give you delightful Dan Riehl-style hedged statements like “Did He, Or Didn’t He? And Does It Really Matter?” – which imply that Obama is guilty by association even when he isn’t guilty by association.
If Obama wasn’t in church on July 22, we should be able to leverage that into a direct attack on right wing credibility (which, for some reason, is still standing in some circles). Let the wingnuts get all nuanced and insightful. The liberals can argue from the rock of the reality-based community.
Jen
I kind of think the point is, WhyTF hasn’t the NYT corrected the freakin’ column yet? Like or not, people assign importance to things, regardless of whether or not we think it’s reasonable to do so.
Have you ever asked someone not particularly interested in politics why they voted a particular way? It’s a horrifying experience. A certain percentage of the population is always going to be moronic and ignorant, but we can at least attempt not to enable them in their ignorance and stupidity by not printing things that are objectively false.
Broken
Not only his pastor’s name, but everything said pastor has uttered in the last 3 decades condensed into 15 seconds.
El Cid
Obama’s Crazy Preacher versus Republican Great Depression 2: The Reaganing.
Bring. It. On.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Fixed.
This has always been the case; don’t play coy like you weren’t aware.
Also, this applies to the Left as well. You don’t pass the Concerned Selfless-But-Rich White Liberal test, you’re an articulate pipe-dream with a speech.
Zifnab
Yeah, that is also worth noting. “Obama’s Preacher Says Something Crazy” can’t hold a media candel against “Oh shit! Stocks are tanking and we’re in a recession!”
Reality strikes again.
Sloegin
Could be worse. Obama might have got an expensive haircut once. Or served in Vietnam and had an exemplary record. Or been a peanut farmer with a strange brother.
Honestly, the idiotic ‘message’ that gets crafted around a candidate by the media, there’s just no defense against it.
Scary black man, and the next Evita Peron versus war hero maverick white guy. What can you do?
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
The NYT has long since stopped trying, like the rest of the media. They’ve realized, after countless studies to enhance their revenue that they’re a business like everyone else and fact-checking is boring and unprofitable.
Unprofitable, until every newspaper forgets what that means, then suddenly notices us “educated folk” are willing to pay a pretty penny to journalists that have their shit together. Then someone like the NYT will come out with a “new” fact-checking section like it’s a revelation from God himself.
Bill Kristol is just another step backwards towards the Dark Ages.
4tehlulz
Fixed.
Also,
The paper that gave us Whitewater and Judith Miller? Apologize? el-oh-el
Jen
But, it’s like, all over the interwebs, including countdown clocks on just how long it’s going to take them to fix it. Free of charge!
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Conventional Wisdom says that parties sitting in recession are always replaced.
Conventional Wisdom says you don’t putz around Mesopotamia with a bunch of White Christians.
So, it would appear that chapter got overlooked for this new century, so I wouldn’t long the Democrats just yet.
myiq2xu
Flashback:
and
I guess it does depend on whose
oxpony is being gored.Pb
Why would they? I assume they haven’t corrected the column for the same reason that they hired Bill Kristol in the first place. This is what he does, and this is what they pay him to do. If they wanted reality-based commentary, they could have hired, say, Glenn Greenwald. They obviously don’t. Screw them.
Svensker
Fox News on this morning (why do I do it? why? why?) and it was all Obama and The Preacher all the time. They had the nerve to have on their house Catholic priest who said that Wright wasn’t a very good Christian because it didn’t sound very Christian to polarize and be angry. WTF? On Fox? Of course, we’ve seen so many criticisms of Hagee, and Parsloe, and Robertson on Fox, ya know?
My head is going to explode. I hate these people with a burning hate. It’s times like these when you realize how hard it is to truly walk the walk as a Quaker.
I hope Obama goes on offense soon. This crap is really pissing me off.
John Cole
WTF are you talking about?
Answer me this- were Geraldine Ferraro’s comments a net positive or net negative for the Clinton campaign?
Punchy
Honestly, that’s all that matters. If you dog our Pres, you’re not a Christian. Period.
Peter
You stick to this argument and try and sell it come November.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Dude, Hillary’s not even involved in this discussion. Hillary’s not behind this retarded “ZOMG teh blak preacha”.
Keep your girl out of this. She needs to learn how not to fight with the other kids during recess.
myiq2xu
Remember the scene in Private Parts (with Paul Giamatti as “Pig Vomit”) where they look at polls that show that people who hate Howard Stern listen to him more than people who like him?
When Bloody Bill Kristol says something outrageously stoopid, you can bet his NYT’s page hits go up.
Chubbs
The End is near. I’m pretty close to just saying F-it. I can’t take this crap anymore. We get what we deserve when we elect these people and it looks like we are going to get it good.
Let’s stay in Iraq for the next 100 years,bomb Iran,have our economy go in the toilet and give more tax breaks while our infrastructure rots….that’s all better than having a black man be President, right?
Dennis - SGMM
A week or so ago I heard one of the talking heads on MSNBC gushing about McCain. “What a warrior,” was one of the inanities. Look; in ’71-’72 I carried an M60A1 machine gun that I used to shoot the fuck out of people. I was a warrior, no doubt about it. Now I’m just an old white guy – and so is McCain.
jenniebee
That isn’t it at all. The “right” kind of Christian is one who is led by that faith to conservative ideology. Thus, the faith of conservatives in good standing ideologically needs no investigation, as its fruit is proof of the correctness of the seed. And the faith of every person whose conservative credentials lie somewhere between suspect and non-existent is automatically discredited (too odd, not odd enough, and possibly fraudulently held – pick your poison) because if their faith was sound, they would be conservatives. QED.
myiq2xu
Really? Ezra Klien had a different opinion:
Of course he had no facts to back that up.
Incertus
If the Republicans want to get into a contest of “whose preacher is crazier?” I’m all for it. The public will be begging for an atheist before it’s all over.
Z
This is all about the scary black man comin’ ta getcha meme. It isn’t really about religion.
ThymeZone
Marcotte is quite right.
Most of the churn over this story has been unwarranted. The voters don’t care much about it, and it has largely faded from the cabletrons pimp parade. Obama has handled it gracefully and calmly, and nobody in official opposition (say, McCain or Clinton campaigns) wants to go anywhere near it.
Those people who find minister minutiae important are going to think this is important, but they aren’t likely to be our voters anyway, so fuck them. They’re the kind of people who think war is patriotism and killing for Jesus is a good idea. Seriously, just fuck them.
As for the blog churn? Waste of time. Obama speaks for himself quite adequately and the bolgatorium is irrlevant here.
In fact, I would go so far as to put it this way: If the blog world doesn’t learn how to talk about more important things than this, then it will become just marginalized and irrelevant totally. Talking about shit like this is how you become marginal and ignored.
You know, just in case you weren’t paying attention.
ThymeZone
Flame alert: The “you” in my prior post is generic, it is not aimed at anyone in particular, except maybe for lukasiak and myiq. Sort of.
Zifnab
So Erza Klein was pulling shit out of his ass? What does this have to do with the current thread?
MJ
We know his name becuase Obama had him prominently displayed on his web site. Obama had him as part of his campaign till recently stepped down. Did any of the others do these things?
You folks joked about how fast Hillary removed Spitzer from her web site. Have you noticed that Jeremiah Wright has been expunged from Obama’s web site?
It looks like MUPs tossed a shoe.
I am waiting for the Karl Rowe conspiracy theory to pop up. Rowe had Obama attacked as being a Muslim so Obama would counter with his Christian pastor and his 20 year membership to that church. Now that the strong ties with the pastor have been established lets show what a nut job this guy really is. Brilliant!
p.lukasiak
john, when will you realize that its not about religion, its about “God Damn America”. No one would care if Obama attended a church that was gay-positive, supportive of abortion rights, etc. Hell, Wright could have said just about anything about Bush, and it wouldn’t have been an issue. Its when he starts attacking the country itself that people sit up and take notice.
tim
I’d guess Rev. Wright and his flock do INDEED “hate the gay.” Black evangelicals are pretty unanimous in there horror of hot man on man action and those who indulge. Can’t wait til his sermons on that topic emerge.
This is fun.
ThymeZone
Gee, I don’t know. Did any of the others have to establish that they went to a christian church, or put up with rumors that they might be Muslim?
Christ on a shishkabob. Get serious.
Zifnab
Wow. Do you take your strong shot of delusion with cream or sugar?
Cyrus
To be fair, Bush is a Methodist, but I don’t think they even want him.
Also, this is OT, but on the other hand I’m surprised I didn’t see anyone else mention it. Do you know what yesterday was the anniversary of? The 40-year anniversary, to be more specific.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
myiq. You’re on John Cole’s blog. Not Ezra Klein’s.
If I were involved in Ezra’s opinions, I’d be over there. And if John were involved, he’d link.
When you’re involving other inflammatory people all by yourself, you’re being a troll. Stoppit. We’re aware of your functioning nervous system. No use hiding it.
ThymeZone
Well, then the rightwing fucks can’t have it both ways.
They can’t pretend that BushCheney are the country, and that it’s unpatriotic to criticise them and then expect people to make that distinction.
The distinction does exist. Just as the distinction between what somebody says to you, and what you believe, exists.
If want to know what you believe, I will ask you, not your fucking minister.
empty
Paul, there was a context to that “God Damn America” quote. I heard it as an exhortation to do right otherwise we are damned. Not that I care much for being damned but it seems much more reasonable that we be damned for killing people and not taking care of our less fortunate brethren than be damned for not beating up gays.
ThymeZone
Oh really? I suppose you have a spreadsheet for this nonsense?
The fact is, nobody really cares about the Wright thing, either.
MJ
MUP is on the shish kabob and it’s all a vast ring wing conspiracy because it would never occur to you that Obama is just another pandering politician. He’s not change he’s just good packaging that is slowing getting unwrapped.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Indeed.
Those sermons are going to come out.
And then Obama’s going to say “Black people need to embrace gays without question, and my pastor is dead wrong on this issue”.
And then the media are going to stammer: “But… but… NOH! You’re supposed to hedge! You’re supposed to believe what we say you believe! And you CAN’T EVER admit you know bad people!!”
And the media will get confused.
And then there will be a black-on-gay discussion in the media (so they can hide their shame)
And then a small bit of progress will be made.
And that’s how catharsis works. You defeat bad things by facing them. That’s why Hillary supposedly facing crypto-sexist attacks would be a _good_ thing, and complaining about them a _bad_ thing.
Cyrus
I’m well aware that Wright might drag down Obama’s “electability” (oooh, goody, we can choose another John Kerry then), but as far as what Wright actually said, it’s within my Overton Window.
And you know, my last comment was off-topic when I wrote it, but now that the discussion has turned to the “God damn America” quote, it seems totally relevant.
Ted
Folks, it’s not that myiq2xu wants to bring up and defend Hillary even when the discussion has nothing to do with her at all, it’s that he’s being paid to by her campaign.
It’s either that, or he’s obsessed. He can pick which is more charitable.
ThymeZone
You took the words right out of my mouth. Along with my upper plate, could I have that back. Seriously, I posted that last week. But you are exactly right.
Let’s have a Wright v Hagee contest, let’s have it large.
One candidate takes an endorsement from Hagee and panders to his flock to get votes. The other guy quietly goes to a noisy church and listens and keeps his own counsel.
Is Wright crazier than Hagee? Yeah, let’s have that match. Let’s have it 24 hours a day until November.
Paul L.
SOP with Ezra Klein.
All informed progressives know that Karl Rove used CGI to created the video.
Fight the swiftboating Jeremiah Wright and Barack Obama.
ThymeZone
Okay, and you’re an anonymous handle who can’t write an English sentence.
We’re at an impasse.
Nikki
That will happen only if the media is willing to play along and, right now, it appears they’re only willing to display Wright’s “crazy.”
Martin
Don’t think there aren’t people pointing out the hypocrisy.
And for those that doubt that Wright is moderate, here’s what moderate black preacher doesn’t look like.
The meta of this is intensely fascinating. On the Clinton side, the hillaryis44 people slipped off the edge of rationality quite early on, but now I’m seeing diaries at mydd suggesting they’ve upgraded from highly-enthusiastic Clinton supporters to ones that are searching for anything to support their cause. I was shocked to see this on the Rec list: “Updated: Donna Brazile is lying about Wright’s moderateness”. From the title, it could be a reasonable diary, but digging through the comments there’s a implied sense that no black person can be accepted as an impartial critic of either Obama or Wright along with further impugning of Wright based on the content of his sermon. I’m surprised to see it playing out so clearly at a place like mydd.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
I see you haven’t met my acquaintance, the Right Wing. They’re big fans of attacking the country. Nobody ever dares criticize them.
MJ
Well then this is not really a problem for Obama is it? John should have used this thread for bear blogging since it is a non isssue. When was his last beer post? I think MUP could use a cold brew at this point.
gypsy howell
Fixd.
Zifnab
Cheers to that.
Ted
Oh, please, will you S.T.F.U!
Probably every Republican candidate for president in recent history has attended a church at some point in their life where the pastor declared that this country is Goin’ to hayel!! Infested with SIYIN!! Followin’ the DEVIL!!
I fail to see a damn bit of difference between that garbage and what Wright has screeched. People don’t bat an eye when white evangelical “ministers” trash the country for whatever reason. When it’s a screaming black guy, they “sit up and take notice”.
When will these retarded people shut up?
ThymeZone
Nope, and I have been saying basically that since last week.
A read of the cable outlets over the weekend showed the story to be fading, and getting pretty mild pundit action.
Obama’s own words on the subject will carry the day.
I’m not worried about it.
MJ
Did your parents name you Thyme? Is your last time Zone? You can’t even get the link in your anonymous name to work as a link to your lame blog.
myiq2xu
That explains all the comments on this thread.
cbear
Fixed.
Buy into gooper memes much?
TenguPhule
Dick Cheney Sez: Iraq was a *SUCCESSFUL ENDEAVOR*.
The Onion called. They’re complaining about plagerism.
Freedom hurts.
Why hasn’t this man been executed yet?
myiq2xu
It’s a pseudonym. His real name is ppgaz.
Svensker
Pat Robertson, Hagee, Dobson, never attack America? How about Dinesh D’Souza and The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and its Responsibility for 9/11? That’s not “attacking” America? Or, it’s only “attacking America” if you say negative things about conservatives. But when you claim that liberals caused 9/11, or that gays caused Katrina, that’s perfectly fine.
But, then, listening to Wright, and toning down his rhetoric a bit in my head — I am a WASP, after all — what he said seems pretty much OK to me.
Since we are not allowed to have a conversation about why this country was attacked on 9/11 — except to say it was “they hate us for our freedom” or “they hate us cuz we’re liberal fags” — this is toxic topic.
Sasha
This sounds like an invitation to plumb into the background of any religious figure connected with the Clinton and McCain campaigns.
I’ll bring the popcorn.
caustics
I was about to call myiq a thrill-seeking contrarian, but perma-bear sounds so much nicer.
TenguPhule
This country is long overdue for a good asskicking.
myiq2xu
The patriotism of conservatives is assumed. The patriotism of liberals and progressives must be proven, over and over.
It’s a propaganda victory of the GOP dating back to the Truman administration.
ThymeZone
Actually, Herb. I picked the actual herb I liked, later.
My “lame blog” is just a blind, and I think it says so right there on the lame blog. Doesn’t it? Didn’t you read all of it?
If you had studied my biography and three-year history here and two zillion posts, you’d know these things already.
And you’re still dead wrong about the Obama thing.
But, you knew that already.
Billy K
I have rarely agreed with someone so completely as I do with John today.
No religious test, bitches.
ThymeZone
Heh.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Hey dude, welcome back.
So, would you like to help us out a bit by affirming for us that Obama is acceptable in his levels of patriotism? It would help us out greatly that a supporter of another devoted public servant such as Hillary can be rest assured that Mr. Obama is working for the betterment of this country.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
And some of day, I can sleep understooding that Me will have experience in the English
ThymeZone
You know, I can’t fathom how anyone can call my blog “lame” with material like that.
Let’s get serious around here, please.
Zifnab
This country gets its ass handed to it on a regular basis. We’re just too dumb to admit it.
quickdraw
Obama’s learning the hard way why most democrats have chosen not to make faith part of their platform. It has nothing to do with “reaching across the aisle,” it has to do with shit like this.
When John Kerry ran, the right started rumors that he’d been excommunicated.
Hillary may be immune from church-specific mudslinging, but that’s at least partly because ‘church-going’ doesn’t fit in with the coathanger-wielding Feminazi label the religious right’s already slapped on her. Also, Methodists are boring.
myiq2xu
Sufferin’ sycophants!
Punchy
Yes. Because he will turn to Public Enemy to write the new Pliz’edge of Allegience, Boooyz!, call his Cabinet “his wrecking crew”, and just to throw a bone to the moderates, he’ll mandate no man dates. Also, the color black will added to the flag, and the price of bling will be gov’t subsidized.
Clearly we need Clinton instead.
The Other Steve
Paul,
Why is it so wrong for to ask that all Americans to be proud of America?
myiq2xu
I have no doubt he a loyal and patriotic citizen of the Scary Dark People’s Islamofascist Caliphate.
/end snark
cbear
R you Daniel Boone? Did you kill a bar?
Where you want me send money?
Paul L.
Why do I know the name of John Edwards’ nitwit ex-blogger
Because they wrote/said something really embarrassing to their candidate?
empty
Ouch!
MJ
How could anybody know all that when you haven’t fixed the link to your blog in your fake name. LOL
You should change your fake name from ThymeZone to
Chip Diller. You remember Chip from Animal House played by Kevin Bacon? At the end of the movie he’s saying: “Remain calm. All is well!”
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
I would (jokingly) say Hillary is a loyal and patriotic citizen of the Post-Menopausal Soccer-Mom Book Club, but I fear Sojourner would be hiding in my closet with a garrote and a mission.
Mike P
The Times just issued a correction of the Kristol column:
Kristol
Bubblegum Tate
As always, Mark Noonan is trying to win the Stupid Olympics on this issue.
Also as always, it gets better in the comments. Here’s the list of important questions one member insists simply must be asked (check out the final question for some quality Gooper comedy):
They really think they’ve got a serious “Gotcha!” moment here. It’d be sad if it weren’t so damn funny.
bootlegger
People have known about the Crazy Black Preacher for quite some time. The Chattering Classes ignored it until the video came out. Couple that with Blondie’s supporters working the refs, and BAM, suddenly we have us a controversy and the Chattering Classes can prove they don’t love BHO by chattering about his Crazy Black Preacher.
Of course if the reality of a presidential election as seen through the electronic eye were even remotely objective, we would all see that the Crazy Black Preacher was giving a sermon about not killing and taking care of others, The Commandments don’t you know, and that he was saying the same thing a thousand Crazy White Preachers had already said.
But alas, the election so far is about the Chattering Classes and their endless self-reflection: “Why were the polls wrong?” ” Everyone (accept me) counted Hilary/McCain out.” ” The media is giving Obama a pass.” ” Why are we talking about this again?” And so on.
This will fade and BHO’s opponents have no reason to keep it up given that A) the Crazy White Preachers outnumber the Crazy Black Preachers, and B) Many of our darker-skinned citizens go to churches with pastors just like this one and they will be pissed if BHO is sunk because of it.
myiq2xu
If so, I bet you won’t have the balls to say something like that again.
MJ
Finally Herby fixed the link to his blog. I won’t hold my breath waiting for a thank you for pointing it out to him.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
I might, but they’d be in a jar marinating in some formaldehyde.
Ed Drone
CNN right now:
Notice what’s missing? No Wright, no wrong. It’s a Right-whinger talking point, that Obama’s preacher “damned America” (without pointing out that he damned an America that represses his people, an America that belongs to the rich, an America that Jesus himself would condemn). It’s not on actual news cycles, and it’s going away, Kristol and Limpballs and Fox Noise notwithstanding.
So, how about the Stock Market? Has it hit bottom yet? And what about this crazy weather? Think it’s related to global warming?
In other words, let’s move on, folks. Just move along, nothing to see here.
(But keep the links to Rod Pasley and Hagee and Dobson and all handy; come the real campaign, the topic will arise again, and the media might actually pay attention when it’s about a candidate that actually sought the backing of those weirdos).
Ed
rawshark
Why are the people who yell about others hating America trying so hard to change America? If you love it why are you trying to turn it into something else?
Tsulagi
Good post.
Don’t know Marcotte, but what’s in the blockquote she got exactly right.
Haven’t really been following this thing of Obama being evil/guilty/whatever of knowing the “wrong” guy who believes in sky fairies.
So “God Damn America” are the offending words from the minister? I dunno, he might be right in a way. Some of my ancestors were here 2,000 years ago. Being God, He could have just as easily knocked up one of them with the baby Jesus. No, he picks some chick in the Middle East obviously showing who He favors. Clearly, God must hate America.
HyperIon
a couple of things:
1. wrt Cole’s question
we do not yet know . certainly the short term effect was negative. but you’re the one that used to bemoan the rush to judgment. now you seem to lead it.
2. after multiple attempts to goggle something i posted here when the MUP first entered the starting gate, i give up. to paraphrase: it will interesting to see the attacks on Obama’s church.
patriotism and religion…two BIG button pushers for a lot of folks in this country. two big chances to turn off the brain and react with OUTRAGE! in other words, the perfect internet topic.
west coast
Hey John,
Did pastor Wright say anything remarkably different from what Abraham Lincoln proclaimed in his Second Inaugural:
Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces; but let us judge not that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has his own purposes. “Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!” If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope–fervently do we pray–that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether”
Sounds awfully damning to me….
Zifnab
Shorter MJ: Thwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwp! And other deep thoughts.
myiq2xu
ROFLMAO!
If they did, they wouldn’t get invited to any more BBQ’s at McCain’s “rustic cabin” (with the pool and pool house)
JF
Wait a second… how the hell is Wright saying “God Damn America” any different from Falwell or Dobson saying that America is going to hell because of abortion and Katrina was God’s attack on America for abortion (one of these clowns even said the hurricane kind of looked like a fetus) and an attack on New Orleans because of gay parades?
Isn’t it, you know, pretty much EXACTLY THE SAME THING? Except every old white Republican bends over to sniff Falwell’s ass and Dobson’s ass (Falwell is dead, but they still do it).
This is Rove tactics at its best. It really is. And just like in 2004 and 2000 the media is going along with it.
MJ
Zifnab you just assume that nobody pointed out to Herby his link didn’t work. What a bastard! That’s not in the spirit of MUP either.
rawshark
The problem is that there is a large portion of the populace who actually listen to their preacher. Who actually believe that they should adhere to what is said in church. I’m pretty sure this is why we separated chruch and state and its why some want to unite them.
Alan
I agree that it has more to do with the “God damn America” statement. But what was Wright ranting about? IIRC, it was three strikes your out laws. Which can be devastating to poor urban families because of the idiotic war on drugs. Why not discuss that?
Zifnab
I think you misread my post. Read it again.
AkaDad
Pastor Wright patriotically served our country as a Marine. Can we please stop bashing our heroes?
Zifnab
Whoa, whoa, slow down there partner. You’re treading dangerously close into the forbidden territory we refer to around here as “the issues”. And if there’s one thing our media avoids like the plague, its the actual policy discussion put forward by our leaders.
cs
I was raised in a fundie Baptist household, where mum made me go to services 3 days a week and even though I’m now atheist/agnostic/could-care-less, I still go to Mum’s church 2 or 3 times a year as an easy way of making her happy.
And, over the years, I have heard various ministers call for divine judgement and destruction of America in a vast multitude of ways. Even before 9/11, they thought we were going down for allowing women to wear pants, because Three’s Company was on the air (I kid you not…), because we weren’t stoning homosexuals anymore. And after 9/11, I heard Mum’s minister echo what Falwell/Robertson said, and then he threw in Harry Potter too. Any country that would make Harry Potter a bestseller deserved the attack because they’ve lost sight of God and have become pig-fucking pagans.
In short, we were and are doomed. And God wasn’t going to spare the Christians. Oh no. We were going to suffer because we allowed sinners to run amok. Especially gay people. They shouldn’t be tolerated at all, much less allowed integration into polite society. Either they repent and start screwing the right gender in the bonds of holy matrimony or they should be stoned, burned, or exiled. Because, in America where God has given us freedom, this is how we should act.
So Rev. Wright has got nothing new and is almost making sense compared to this group of people who are the only reliable base of the Republicans.
borehole
I love how these guys always have “spiritual advisors” whose views they don’t agree with. So what’s that credulous bigot helping you out with, exactly? The Princeton Review?
Of course it’s a stupid double-standard, and at least Wright was condemning actual bad things (nuking Japanese civilians etc.) instead of the usual white-evangelical-asshole laundry list, but the very concept of a spiritual advisor is just. Such. Bullshit.
If you’re going to put somebody in that position, get a mechanic or something. They’re well-respected, they’ve got plenty of wisdom and life experience, and the icing on the cake is, cars actually exist.
ThymeZone
So, your goal here today was to point out that my link had a comma where a dot belonged?
You sir are one gnarly dude!
You have made quite the first impression here, your insights are valuable, and many want to subscribe to your listserv.
Kudos! Huzzahs!
ThymeZone
I made it more topical.
RSA
Funny how it’s okay for some evangelists (and Fox commentators) to call for the destruction of some of America, like San Francisco and New Orleans and New York City, but not the important parts, like Kansas and Wyoming.
JR
If I were a black man in America I’d be damning this country on occasion too. Hell, if I was a black man living (or who used to live) in NOLA I’d probably be starting a new Black Panthers chapter by now. They always leave out the fact that the ‘good’ pastors are white and the ‘bad’ pastors, well, aren’t.
JR
p.s. what RSA said.
ThymeZone
That was then, this is now. I really don’t think that the rightwing nutbase is going to be motivated to go out and vote this year on the basis of that kind of nonsense.
The economy alone is going to make the Dem a prohibitive favorite. Iraq, just about ditto. The incompetance in government, ditto ditto ditto. McCain the Corpse, ditto. The Surge Is Working message? Please, give us a break.
All of that, versus Obama had a loud preacher who said goofy things?
I made a bet with DougJ that Obama v McCain won’t get McCain 35% of the popular vote. I have no worries that I was wrong.
Ninerdave
MJ, what is your obsession with TZ’s “pseudo-blog”?
Krista
Hm. We’ve had cat blogging, and dog blogging, but I don’t recall if we’ve ever had bear blogging. Are we talking about bears of the teddy, dead ‘n’ stuffed, or live variety?
Or is it “bear” blogging you seek, as in blogging about large hirsute gay males? I don’t think that’s John’s cup of tea (or bowl of Hola Fruta), but I’m sure you could find what you seek out there on the intertrons — you simply need to look.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Let’s just note that these White Super-christ-y motherfuckers that advocate the torture of terrist ghey atheists also frequently denounce the actual bad things like dropping of nukes and reckless anti-environmentalism. They mean well; they just don’t understand where the line between Right and Wrong is.
We only hear about the psychotic plans for mass murder because that’s what gets them on CNN. Nobody gives two shits about a White pastor in Florida saying “we should protect the Everglades, it’s a part of our home”.
El Cid
Although I don’t know the name of John Edwards’ pastor, I am quite sure that if the pastor had ever worked in a mill, I would have heard about it.
Caidence (fmr. Chris)
Before I dig into that, I’ll ask:
Knowing that the Rightwing Nutbase is comprised of nothing BUT motivation, what will they be planning on doing? Because I see no reason for them to change what’s worked for the last two Presidential elections, nor to change what is powerful enough to put a sock puppet into the White House.
ThymeZone
I’m afraid that he has fallen victim to its secret powers to confound the unwary and turn their brains to cream of wheat.
Mwuhahahahahaha! Another victim!
{ mad demonic cackling — then, burping }
Krista
I hope the victim wasn’t injured too badly. If so, I’m certain he can be cured.
MJ
That was one of them. I’m just a good samaritan that has been misunderstood.
This ain’t my first rodeo Herby. I have to get some work done. You keep the snark up and I’ll check in with you later perhaps.
I read and understood it just fine but thanks for the consideration.
ThymeZone
Oh my god, this gets better and better.
ThymeZone
This ain’t your first rodeo?
And you didn’t know the Rule of the Intertrons?
“I’ve been misunderstood” means “I don’t know how to make myself understood.”
Your first day here, and you are already whining? I see a great future for you, really.
If I were you I would stay off the broncs and the bulls and start with the barrel racing.
myiq2xu
Looks like TZ has a cyber-stalker.
myiq2xu
Bare blogging?
(Only on extremely casual Fridays)
ThymeZone
After he stares at my lame blog some more, he will develop crippling hemorrhoids. Insanity will soon follow.
Poor bastard.
Krista
Or we could have bare bear blogging, when Sully guest-blogs sans clothing. Wouldn’t that be festive?
b. hussein canuckistani
That’s why physicians have to swear “First – do no ham”.
Your serve.
Well, it’s better than arguing about who has the stupider pastor.
myiq2xu
I guess I’ll be skipping lunch today.
borehole
If by “festive” you mean AAAAAAAAIIIEEEEE
myiq2xu
There is an old Alfred Hitchcock story where a woman murders her police officer husband by bludgeoning him with a frozen leg of lamb.
She then bakes it in the oven and his detective buddies end up eating the murder weapon.
Krista
Looks like a spiral of violence to me.
myiq2xu
Krista wins this thread.
Martin
A medley of America damning.
Martin
I think Ezra is wrong on that. I know the media has been sitting on that video for some time now. Give the media credit for one thing – they know how to collect information even if they sometimes don’t know fuck-all about how to prioritize, analyze and draw conclusions from it.
The problem is how can the media release that information without appearing horribly biased? Hannity and conservative radio have been banging on this for a few months now, but MSM wouldn’t touch it because it is too toxic (few things are too toxic for Hannity.) Toss in guys like Turner banging on the story and you can see why the MSM would be shy:
If they had video of Clinton and McCains pastors, then they could do it as a ‘let’s meet the candidate’s spiritual advisors’ and if the whole thing is one-sided then so be it. But no such video appears to be available from Clinton and McCain.
Let’s take the cynical view (which is my view, admittedly) that the Clinton camp wanted to see that video get out there. How would they do it? They can either come up with the video of Clinton’s advisor themselves – something which she cannot do since the first rule of The Fellowship is nobody talks about The Fellowship. She could hope that McCain does it for her, which I think we can all agree isn’t in his best interest either. Or she could have some other event serve as a catalyst for it – something that the video could serve to reinforce or refute. I present Ferraro’s “Racism works in two different directions. I really think they’re attacking me because I’m white. How’s that?” as a rather unvarnished effort to serve as that catalyst. If the media wanted to explore whether Obama was calling her a racist because she’s white, what other evidence would they present? Well, they already had the video, so in absence of more research and in the interest of getting at the front of a story, they run the video, and if Ferraro’s claims were true, I couldn’t fault them too much for jumping at it. But Obama’s camp never said Ferraro was a racist. Some bloggers may have, but shit, we say all kinds of fucked up things so why single that out? Ferraro painted herself as being the victim of a racial attack because it served to get the video out, and that’s exactly what happened.
I know that miq and maybe paul would argue that there is no evidence that there was intent there, but you really can’t honestly argue that there wasn’t causation there. And for someone who has played this hand before and been in politics for decades, I find it completely implausible that Ferraro wouldn’t have recognized the outcome of this. I also have a hard time accepting that Clinton wouldn’t either and so far nobody has given a plausible explanation for her slow response to the story when she has repeatedly pointed out how quickly she would act if one of her staff stepped out of line.
RH Potfry
Honestly, where would you guys be without equivocation? It’s like arguing with a toddler.
Martin
Spot on. Wow, a defense and half-defense of miq from me. The troll must be wearing off.
w vincentz
Must confess…I didn’t read every comment on this thread, but I’m sure everyone did their best, but…
HOLY MOSES IN A HOY TUB!!!! Let the waters divide already!
You mean…like for real???
These folks don’t know about Carolina Bar-b-que? Or baby backs?
SHIT!! These folks don’t know what they’re missin’!!
S.W. Anderson
“I can not figure out why reasonably intelligent liberals are debating with Bil Kristol about Obama’s minister and . . .”
Rick Taylor
This is the same right wing who managed to slime John Kerry has being an opportunist who didn’t deserve his purple heart. I was amazed when that got traction; it arguably caused him to loose the presidential election. The attacks on Obama’s minister are no more ridiculous than that was. Very little shocks me anymore.
Thepanzer
I don’t know which is worse, the attention paid by the MSM to this or the fact that it’s ZOMG! controversial to say things like “America is run by rich white people.” Really? After rich white men have been running the country for over 200 hundred years it’s considered heretical to mention it in public?
This got me thinking about what it means to be an American and live here as an American. What does it say about us that stating true facts in public will not only not win elections but quite likely keep you from being elected? Worse yet what does it say that you have a greater chance of being elected by saying that Christianity’s goal is to destroy Islam, that muslims are evil, and that Iran will usher in the anti-christ and the end-times (my lunatic far-right religious parents hit me with that last one recently) than by saying spreading democracy at gunpoint is a bad idea?
I find myself thinking more and more that maybe it’s time to start looking for a new home. The things I used to believe America stands for is a travesty. Six months ago I started reviewing immigration laws and citizenship laws for moving to Canada. I’ve been toying with the idea ever since but the giant pain in the ass it would be to completely relocate, get employed, etc has kept it on the back-burner. Now I’m waiting to see what happens after the election. If a dem gets in power, gets rid of the unilateral policies, gets rid of the domestic spying, gets rid of the neocon foriegn policy crazies, etc then I think I’ll stay. If on the other hand the surveillance state grows, torture continues to be our new pet fetish, and pre-emptive war takes precedence on civil liberties then maybe it’s time to leave.
What the fuck has happened to our country? I never would have believed in 2000 what we would become by 2008. I still can’t believe how fast we’ve gone to crazy town. When a former US military officer starts contemplating moving to fucking Canada because he can no longer recognize the country he spent 9 years protecting, WTF is going on?
RSA
Based on a short by Roald Dahl: “Lamb to the slaughter”, if I recall correctly.
quickdraw
Not to mention that Kerry was a Taxachusetts Dem with the personality of a wet shoe. I may still be pissed off at anyone who voted for a second term of Chimpy, but let’s face it. It wasn’t a huge challenge to derail that campaign.
I’m just not that surprised that they “went there” with Obama. They always go there. Religion is like Calvinball with that crowd. They make up the rules as they go along.
Neo
Why Are Reverend Wright Videos Disappearing from YouTube?
ThymeZone
I like a good juicy murder mystery.
Asti
Religion is a bane, t’was ever so.
Beej
Marcotte is dead-on right this time. Why the bloody hell do I have to know anything about Obama’s minister? Or Clinton’s? Or McCain’s?
What’s next? Is the press and/or youtube now going to look into the candidate’s reading habits? What they watch on TV? The kinds of movies they enjoy? The sexual positions they prefer?
No? Why not? If a minister that whose sermons a candidate listens to once in a while and whose company the candidate enjoys occasionally has that much power to influence the thinking of said candidate, how much more important are the things listed above? Aren’t they much more likely to influence the candidates?
And, oh yes, shouldn’t someone be monitoring what the candidates look at when the search they internet? Why isn’t that being done? Good grief people, just think of the veritable multitudes of bad influences these candidates may have been exposed to online! My God, they may even have read Balloon Juice!!!!!!!!
markwilliams
Evangelical Christians believe that one day soon Jesus will return to earth, pull a gleaming, silver sword out of his throat and proceed to slaughter approximately 2.5 billion people who are contrary to the Evangelical faith (that’s the amount of blood it would take to fill the Jezreel Valley to a depth of 4 1/2 feet deep and create a 200 mile river of blood). Those who would be saved amount to approximately 144,000 believers. The heathens lucky enough to avoid immediate slaughter a lake of everlasting fire after being judged by Jesus perched upon a silver throne while interviewing those of questionable character. Evangelicals do not specify if Jesus uses a devine checklist or handles each case indivually. There is no mention of how pre-judgement people are handled who die of old age while waiting in line for Jesus to interview them.
This is a radical personality change from the Jesus we know from the Bible. Why exactly Jesus turns into a blood-thristy psychopath is a human invention, which evangelicals belive was revealed by a divinely inspired Irishman.
Assuming that many of the victims of this genocide are American citizens, there is no question that evangelicals support the use of weapons of mass destruction being used against their fellow countrymen. In fact, they are excited for the rapture to happen and pray for the day they sit in their white, silk robes cheering Jesus as he inflicts everlasting pain upon the masses.
Jews have the option of converting to Evangelical Christianity or meeting the same fate.
Odd that Rev. Wright is being criticized with such vigor. Whatever he believes is mild compared to the genocide Evangelicals so enthusiastically embrace. As for the children, I’d much prefer them being exposed to the teaching of Rev. Wright than the homicidal manics preaching Evangelical Christianity.