. . . Dutch Men’s National Team Coach Bert van Marwijk comes to his senses:
Dutch coach Bert van Marwijk on Wednesday justified his decision to drop Nigel de Jong over his leg-breaking challenge on Hatem Ben Arfa by saying the defensive midfielder had over-stepped the line.
“Nigel really went too far,” van Marwijk told the ANP agency.
He’s realizing this now? After de Jong fractured Stuart Holden’s leg in a friendly in March of this year and after he cleated Xabi Alonso in the World Cup Championship game? While I’m glad that someone is doing something about de Jong, talk about being a dollar short and a day late . . .
If de Jong doesn’t make an appearance in Euro 2012, perhaps he can hone his skills playing pick up games with Bolivian President Evo Morales.
beltane
Now, now, no one has ever accused the Dutch of being impulsive decision-makers.
SiubhanDuinne
@Randy! Hai!
BGinCHI
The thug Van Bommel is nearly as bad, but of course daddy in law ain’t gonna suspend him.
I used to root for the Dutch, but I really don’t like the way they play now.
burnspbesq
Is it possible to be a Yankee fan and a Liverpool supporter, or does that now cause one’s head to spontaneously combust?
Randinho
@burnspbesq: LOL
Randinho
@BGinCHI: Agreed, albeit sadly so.
BGinCHI
Randy, please reassure me that my beloved Liverpool are going to pull out of their nosedive.
The big rumor is that the Red Sox owners are going to acquire the club and get the dreadful Hicks (asshole!) out of the picture.
I also don’t understand why newly promoted St Pauli don’t have any stein-toting frauleins on their side.
mark boggs
I saw the play against Ben Arfa and didn’t think it was overly malicious, just a hard challenge. Compared to the chest-cleating in the World Cup it was extremely mild. But having watched the Dutch play, especially in the final against Spain, I thought that kind of play was systemic with the squad, not just idiosyncratic of one player.
And having watched the replay during the telecast of the Man City – Newcastle game it was pretty apparent that Ben Arfa’s leg was broken, but the commentator kept insisting that it didn’t really look that bad. Not sure what he was watching.
BGinCHI
@burnspbesq: Burns, the Blackpool match was daggers. Daggers!
I’m going to have to have the wife zip-tie my hands during matches if this keeps up.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@BGinCHI: Germans aren’t nearly as much fun as their advertising would lead you to believe.
BGinCHI
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): You know, I’m starting to think advertising might be promising more than it delivers.
I still can’t get these mail-order glasses to see through anyone’s clothes.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@BGinCHI: Any German who is fun is actually Dutch, but they might hurt you.
BGinCHI
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): Let’s compromise. Belgium has great beer, great cycling (cyclocross), and the world’s best fries.
Alternate scenario: show me on the doll where Germany/Netherlands touched you.
MikeJ
@BGinCHI: I lurve the Vlaamse frites stand at Schipol.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@BGinCHI: I can’t think of anything worse to call someone than a Belgian.
BGinCHI
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): Mitt Romney?
BGinCHI
@MikeJ: If I was Bill Gates I’d fly in there a couple days a week, get said fries, a Duvel or whatever was available, and then fly home.
Which probably explains why he has all that money and I don’t.
Yutsano
@BGinCHI: Oh now that’s just hitting below the belt good sir.
And Seattle haz another championship team. For the second year in a row. But it’s American pro soccer so it doesn’t count I know.
Andy K
So when, exactly, did the Dutch start admiring the ’70s Oakland Raiders?
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@BGinCHI: But everyone knows that there’s no such thing as a real Mitt Romney.
BGinCHI
@That’s Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN): If the Battle of the Bulge was fought in Belgium, what’s the battle being fought in Mitt Romney?
MikeJ
@BGinCHI: There actually used to be a vlaamse frites stand in Seattle, but the philistines here let it go out of business.
If I had Bill Gate’s wealth, I , like you, would have blown an inordinate amount on getting good fries, but I would have kept a local business afloat. I would have blown the remainder on women and drink, which, like you, explains why I don’t have his money.
That's Master of Accountancy to You, Pal (JMN)
@BGinCHI: I think it’s the War of the Austrian Succession, but I’m not sure.
cmorenc
@Mark Boggs
Um…NO! This is a textbook example of “Serious Foul Play”, and not even close to any sort of fair challenge.
– De Jong comes in sliding studs up to the ball
– moving DIRECTLY into the opponent’s legs
– with excessive speed and force in that direction.
De Jong should have received a red card for this foul.
This is also a texbook example of why “just because a tackler makes contact with ball first” does NOT thereby necessarily make it a fair challenge. [A different, but related example is the infamous “La Plancha” tackle where the perp’s studs-up foot goes into and over the ball and into the opponent’s ankle or shin]. “Ball first” in a slide-tackle challenge is prerequisite element for a fair challenge, but not a sufficient one to make the challenge fair.
I’ve refereed soccer at competitive levels for nearly fourteen years now (granted not at the international level) and this tackle is an example of inexcusable thuggery that deserves not just a red card, but an extended suspension from international play, given De Jong’s history of serial serious foul play incidents which actually severely injured or risked severe injury to opponents. I have no partisan attachment to either of the teams involved here, or to the national team attachments of either player involved.
burnspbesq
@BGinCHI:
But Belgian football is so bad that Sacha Kljestan starts for the best team in the country.
burnspbesq
@Yutsano:
“And Seattle haz another championship team. For the second year in a row. But it’s American pro soccer so it doesn’t count I know.”
It’s just the cup, dude. Win the league and we’ll talk.
Yutsano
@burnspbesq: Hell we’ll take it. Any good news for a sports team around here is a welcome respite. Plus the Sounders make attendance records consistently here. They play in the same stadium as the Seahawks, they very nearly sell out every single match. We lurves our sociaIist futbol here.
Robert Sneddon
A chopper is an absolute requirement for any competitive team, mainly because the other side will have one to intimidate your team with. The trick is to get a GOOD chopper on the books.
Nobby Stiles, now there was a maestro of the art. He could break someone’s leg with a sliding tackle, get the ball out to one of his forwards and the replay would show he was never within five yards of the poor sucker getting stretchered off the field. Modern choppers are clumsy brutes by comparison.
Paula
@burnspbesq:
I was wondering about that …
Sorry. Good luck dealing …
Anyone see St. Pauli’s new keg-seats? Ugly.
burnspbesq
@cmorenc:
As a former player, I respectfully disagree. If you’re not going all out to win every 50/50 ball, you shouldn’t be out there. Every player assumes the risk of that kind of injury, and you can’t judge the tackle with hindsight. As a keeper, I learned at an early age how to protect myself (the judicious use of the elbows to clear space is a skill that carried over from basketball).
Intent to injure and hard challenges within the spirit of the game are different things, and must be treated differently.
.
Van Marwijk can fuck off, too. Who can forget his classy display as he petulantly ripped his second-place medal off as soon as he descended from the platform, not to mention his whining and bitching about how the referee cost the Dutch the game.
cmorenc
@burnspbesq:
The first two sentences are valid, with the qualifications that these propositions do not license players to commit serious foul play, and neither does the fact that soccer is a physical, contact sport in which injury is an inherent risk license players to commit serious foul play.
As to the third sentence, the following clip of the De Jong/Afra incident, which is from a better angle than another clip you may have seen of it, irrefutably proves that yes indeed you can judge that this was an inexcusable piece of thuggery, in hindsight.
I know no competent referees who wouldn’t have immediately red-carded a tackle such as that, unless their view of the incident was somehow obstructed (which was apparently the case with this incident). You’d certainly fail an assessment as a referee missing such a “moment of truth” as this one, absent strong extenuating circumstances.
I’m simply flabbergasted that you think this is at all any kind of fair challenge for the ball. STUDS UP, dude, directly toward the opponent’s leg.
Sarcastro
Germans aren’t nearly as much fun as their advertising would lead you to believe.
You guys need to check out the kult kulture at St Pauli. They’re actually a lot more fun than you’d be lead to believe. And if there is any such thing as a left-wing for-profit sporting organization, St Pauli is it. Their owner is an out homosexual, their fans are raving anarchists and communists, they – along with Celtic and Barca – spearheaded the anti-fascist movement in football, and their stadium is a block away from that infamous strip of sin and depravity; The Reeperbahn. Yea, where The Beatles got their start.
And we are aware of just what a “St Pauli girl” is right? St. Pauli is the red-light district of Hamburg …
mark boggs
cmorenc:
I’m not an official, and as you’ve stated your pedigree, you obviously are. But have you watched your own clip (which was the same clip they showed repeatedly during the actual telecast that I watched)? Where are DeJong’s studs up? He actually slides into Ben Arfa’s leg with his right shin right as Ben Arfa is planting his left leg. This is when it breaks.
I’m no fan of DeJong and we’ll never truly know other than speculating based on DeJong’s track record what his intentions were during that tackle, but this idea that the play, running at full speed (and honestly, they should use replay to determine the severity of these challenges, post-game) was such a black and white issue of a malicious challenge, deserving a red card seems a bit of monday morning quarterbacking, regardless of your refereeing CV.
Sarcastro
STUDS UP, dude, directly toward the opponent’s leg.
Did De Jong go over the ball? No, he came right through it. Did his lead foot strike Ben Arfa’s leg at the calf or above? No, it hit his foot. Did De Jong hit the ball before hitting Ben Arfa? Yes, clearly.
At this point, before De Jong’s trailing leg comes through Ben Arfa’s planted leg, it was a flawlessly executed tackle. Studs were down (the call is “studs UP” not “studs FIRST” and De Jong’s foot was parallel to the ground and no more than an inch or two off the pitch) and the ball was struck before the opponent.
Now, when De Jong’s right shin comes through Ben Arfa’s left leg it’s quite conceivably – and probably – a reckless challenge. De Jong simply came in too hard. But he did not come in studs up nor did he come in aiming for the leg.
Yellow card in my book. And probably would have been in Germany or the Netherlands. Probably a red in Spain or Italy. I’m guessing in France they would have called the foul but no card. No call in England. Sounds about right to me.
cmorenc
mark boggs &Sarcastro:
Look at 0:03 into the clip.
1) De Jong’s feet have left the ground, with studs on his extended tackling leg pointed DIRECTLY toward Afra’s feet and legs located immediately the other side of the ball.
2) it is IRRELEVANT that De Jong’s leg is aimed toward the ball or that he gets “ball first” – BECAUSE Afra’s legs were directly, immediately the other side of the ball when De Jong launched himself off the ground for the tackle.
3) De Jong has launched himself with velocity + force + straight studs-pointed-at-opponent’s leg that this kind of tackle is INHERENTLY dangerous, qualifying as a “jumping at” type of foul even before any contact is made.
4) NOR is it relevant that De Jong’s extended leg is down near ground level – it’s still aimed FORCEFULLY, WITH SPEED where it will inevitably plow into one or both of Afra’s feet and legs on the follow-through on the ball.
WADR, you two simply don’t have a clue about the crucial difference between this type of thuggish serious foul play and a fair slide tackle coming in early enough and laterally enough that after the tackler gets to the ball first, the opponent may well trip over the outstretched leg and take a tumble to the ground, but isn’t unfairly dangerous. Nor do you apparently have any good sense of when coming in with studs exposed is dangerous. THIS DEFINITELY IS!
I GUARANTEE that in the post-game assessment the referee crew for this game underwent, it would NOT have been an acceptable answer for the center referee to attempt to justify a no-call because he thought this was merely a “flawlessly executed slide tackle”, a “hard but fair challenge”. If he did so, for certain it would be a long time before he got any further assignments at anywhere near this level. I guarantee the CR’s attempted mea culpa is more along the lines of “my view was obstructed at a critical moment, and so was that of my AR…”
Seedee Vee
“De Jong was not penalised for the challenge.” — That SHOULD say it all, but no. The haters are out.
Go play video game soccer if you can’t stand injuries to athletes. If you need to see soccer, there are millions of children playing in youth leagues throughout the land. Even there, you’ll see injuries, though. Let the men and women play the sport like athletes. They are not frail little flowers.
Alonso walked into that foot at the WC. Both men had eyes on the ball. The Netherlands got mugged and robbed at the WC, that was why the medals were discarded.
mark boggs
cmorenc:
Has anybody ever slide tackled while their feet were still “on” the ground? I’m not sure how it’s possible given that, with their feet on the ground, and their body sliding, their ankles would break.
And you’ll forgive me if I’m unimpressed with your certainty about the maliciousness of the tackle or the incompetence of the officials. Playing and watching a fair amount of soccer, I’m impressed the officials do as well as they do given that they are not omniscient nor are they omnipresent. Do they still fuck up and get it wrong? Yep. But not terribly often given those restraints.
And I’m willing to bet if Ben Arfa’s leg had not been planted and he merely fell rather than breaking his leg, this would have been just another tackle. But it seems apparent that you alone hold the definitive answer on the motives of the player, the particulars of every tackle at real speed, and the competency of the officials. Congratulations.
Randy Paul
@Seedee Vee:
Alonso walked into that foot at the WC. Both men had eyes on the ball. The Netherlands got mugged and robbed at the WC, that was why the medals were discarded.
Horseshit. Alonso had headed the ball away in the direction of Iniesta and Xavi.
De Jong is a cheap shot artist with no place in this sport.
Seedee Vee
@Randy Paul:
How is my comment incorrect?
.
The idiot who complains that serious injuries are just a part of the game is now complaining that minor refereeing errors are an inexcusable blemish. You can rationalize all you want, Seedee Vee, but Arjen Robben had two one-on-one chances with Casillas and blew them both. You really think a few niggling calls that could have possibly gone the other way would have made the difference instead?
Besides, Howard Webb himself said after seeing the replays that he should have ejected de Jong, so if anything, the crybaby Dutch and their apologists should be grateful that they didn’t spend the game from the thirtieth minute on with only ten men, in which case Spain would have won even more handily. And speaking of Robben, what do you think that sack of shit would have made of getting a tae kwon do kick to the chest? They’d have had to throw a net over him to stop him from flopping around like a fish out of water. The Dutch played like shit and deserved to lose.
.
It is hilarious to see that other thug Van Bommel defending de Jong for being a “sweet guy” at heart. I remember a Bundesliga game from last season where Van Bommel viciously clotheslined a guy in the back of the head in an off-the-ball foul, just for the hell of it, only to get his stupid ass sent off twenty minutes in when the referee unexpectedly caught it out of the corner of his eye. Birds of a feather…
Randinho
@Seedee Vee: Because if they both had their eye on the ball,de Jong would not have had a need to go for a ball that Alonso had headed away a full second later.
@.: Amen.
Randinho
Seedee Vee,
Now I remember who you are. I deleted your last comment. I won’t tolerate someone who taunts me and is too much of a coward to use his real name.
Randinho
As long as you keep insulting I’ll keep deleting. If it keeps up, I’ll contact the site owner to see about possibly banning you. Govern yourself accordingly.
EmmATX
Randinho, good to see you back! I got (re)hooked on soccer during the World Cup, in part because of your fabulous posts here, and since then I’ve been to a few games of my local team (the Aztex), and have been following the US and Spanish NTs and Real Madrid (as best I can, without having cable…)
I know supporting Real is like being a Yankees fan, but I can’t help it – I watched them with my host family in Spain 10 years ago, when wee Iker was a baby, just starting out with the first team… :)
Dutch Van Dutchman
Rnd,
Y rll hv sm thn skn.
Cnsrshp s th lst rfg f pr rgmnt.
[Insulting comment disemvoweled]