Philip Sandifer at Tardis Eruditorium sent me scurrying to watch Mr Bowie on Top of the Pops. Those eyes, those lips, those hips, all mine again for three more minutes, with little Micky Ronson sidling into shot just like he sidled through the bedroom door that wet Sunday afternoon in David’s suite in the Dorchester, giving Bowie that same little smile. Those boys knew how to treat a woman.
Anyway, I’m a little late in posting a Doctor Who thread, but this week’s episode made me deliriously happy. A perfect 48 minutes of tight, finely imagined and intricate television which, as an added bonus, has the “Doctor Who was better when it was filmed in black and white and made sense and why don’t they write it the way I want them to?” brigade out in force in the geekier corners of the internet.
How has Steven Moffat ruined your life this week?
zzyzx
I posted a long explanation of the episode in a few places; cliff notes is to think of Mels as a time spiral, not a time loop. It’s Back to the Future, not the usual someone did X because they remembered doing it…
The longer version is at: http://thezzyzx.livejournal.com/1157420.html#cutid1
Yes, livejournal. I needed a place to put it and I had that lying around. Facebook wouldn’t let me avoid posting spoilers.
Cris (without an H)
Fantastic. My five-year-old’s new pajamas are covered with glow-in-the-dark stars, so in the darkened bathroom I called him “Starman.” Then sang him the song. He was amazed that such a song exists. My little future Ziggy Stardust fan.
cleek
am i a bad nerd because i find Dr Who boring, silly and cheesy ?
R-Jud
@cleek: No. It’s a kid’s show, fer cryin’ out loud.
k2isnothome
@cleek: No. What makes us feel happy inside varies by nerd, though I think your choice of adjectives is a little over-wrought.
jacy
The six-year-old has designed his Halloween costume.In his words, “I’ll be a TARDIS, and when you open the doors, a Dalek pops out, and when you open the Dalek, a little squiggly alien pops out.”
I have serious doubts that mom and dad have the engineering acumen necessary to create this.
Wag
Dr Who never really made sense, at least once Tom What’s-his-name brought a certain Pythonesque flair to the role. I like it that way
Nemesis
let all the children boogeh.
Time to bust out my Ziggy SACD.
Bruuuuce
@zzyzx: Piffle. Mels is a paradox, named after herself and appearing with absolutely no valid basis. (Yes, I read your LJ entry. I don’t buy it.) Also, too, if she shot Plastic Doctor at an earlier point in her personal timeline (while wearing a spacesuit, in s06e01), shouldn’t she have been relieved of the compulsion to kill him in s06e08?
To me, this is yet another case of Moffatt’s preference for drama over story (including continuity). It was a fun romp, and explains why River died permanently in the Library (which had come into question when we knew she could regenerate), but not, I think, an especially good ep.
@cleek: Yep. But you can redeem yourself by loving Real Genius.
cleek
any gemologists/lapidaries out there?
anyone know if there’s any reason at all why an 11ct triangular-cut green tourmaline (loose) would cost $6000 ?
or, is this jeweler just high?
Steeplejack
@cleek:
No, there are different breeds and degrees of nerddom.
I like Dr. Who, but I’m not a fanatic. I discovered the Tom Baker episodes in the ’80s when some Atlanta PBS station played them late at night on the weekend. At first I was like WTF?! But once I got up to speed I started liking them, and the cheesiness was part of the attraction.
The “rebooted” series (from 2005 on) is pretty good, and the production values are much better, of course. No more monsters made out of tinfoil and Jell-O.
SonjasPanties
I think I understood what was going on which was mostly Alex Kingston having as much fun as she’s had since Moll Flanders except for how River could turn herself into a child although Romana once tried on a series of bodies as an excuse for bringing back Lalla Ward so maybe it’s a Time Lady (which is a term I just made up because Time Lordette didn’t sound right) thing and I don’t get why it was such a big deal to have killed the Doctor since it happened about 11 other times but it did seem odd that nobody showed up to let Hitler out of the pantry.
honus
the video reminded me of when Mick came to west virginia and I taught him those Pure Prairie League songs he put on his first album
some guy
wow, a link from Giggles the Clown. who knew Giggles would really hit the big time one day?
cleek
@cleek:
(no, i’m not buying it. was just wondering if there’s any reason a stone like that could cost that much. makes me think the jeweler might be a little overpriced…)
Jay in Oregon
He hasn’t done a second season of Sherlock yet.
Erin
Bruuuuuuuuce,
No, no, you have it backwards. The astronaut shooting the Doctor happened later in her personal timeline than the events of Let’s Kill Hitler. Remember, we saw the “birth” of River Song in the latest episode; therefore everything else in River’s regeneration life happened later than that in her personal timeline.
Also, everyone everywhere is ASSUMING that River Song is the person in the astronaut suit. Yes, this is what Moffat wants you to believe, but I personally am absolutely convinced that it is NOT River Song in the spacesuit. So I wouldn’t say something does or doesn’t make sense until after this season is all done.
Finally, I’m also reading all over the place that the Doctor that was shot in the first episode of the current season is a Plastic Doctor. This isn’t possible. He is shot by the astronaut and you see him starting to regenerate. Then he is shot while in regeneration. If it was a Plastic Doctor you wouldn’t see the regeneration. Whatever’s going on, Plastic doesn’t enter into it.
My theory? It’s the Doctor in the spacesuit. No, I don’t know how. But that’s my guess.
– Erin
mikej
I was a geek when I was younger (a shock i know)and all my little geek friends loved tom baker as the dr. I couldn’t stand the show at all. I’ve loved the reboot. Could do without the alien dude though and just have a Martha Jones and Amy Pond show.
trollhattan
@cleek:
Dr. Who’s lasting gift to us is the “Syd and Nancy” scene were the boys are running around like Daleks shouting “Exterminate, exterminate” in shakey voices.
I could never achieve the necessary baked level in college to appreciate its low budget B/W charms and haven’t since acquired the habit.
O/T “Rescue Me” is revving up to what’s likely to be quite the finale. Talk about underappreciated gems.
joeyess
I don’t know about Steven Moffat, but this pissed me off…..
(original spelling errors left intact for obvious reasons)
Read the whole piece. It’s a classic Pantloadesque article, complete with Nazi/Stalin/Mao/Atheist references.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. They’re coming for people like me. This is how it begins: Fringe lunatics spew their nonsense, talk radio hears the whistle, Fox Nooz runs with it on their morning Teh Crazy Rollout Show in the form of a question – Should Atheists be allowed to vote? – and before you know it, we’re having a national debate. I will resist these cretins with extreme prejudice.
trollhattan
“Where” not “were.” Edit function no workie–FYWP
twiffer
doctor who made me so happy this week, that i nearly forgot how bitter i was about the summer-long wait.
one of the funniest eps. in awhile and a good watch, despite being a table setter.
i’ve heard some mention of the show being “too complicated”. perhaps it is, for stupid people. to me, it is well acted, well written and full of mystery, suspense, horror, humor and adventure. what more could you ask or want of sci-fi, or any genre?
twiffer
@Erin: ganger doctor is not plastic, like the autons. the flesh was actual, living flesh. it scanned his dna and replicated him. as the doctor said, his ganger was him. there is no reason it couldn’t regenerate, as that is a biological function of the time lords, and the ganger is a biological copy. consider the ganger that wound up with a brain clot (or tumor, i forget exactly)…why copy that unless the flesh copied everything about a person?
i’m also not convinced river used up all her regens…why she wouldn’t have in the library was actually covered (she takes the doctor’s place because she knows he won’t be able to regen), and…rule 1 (the doctor lies).
Paul in KY
@cleek: Definitely cheesy, IMO. When I first started watching it, I thought it was one of the made-for-kids sitcom shows they would show on Sat. morning. Didn’t think it was an actual, supposed to be for adults, drama.
Production values are generally just North of ‘Lost in Space’.
MH
@Erin
I’m not sure if duplicating the Doctor would include duplicating the energy needed for regeneration. But even if it doesn’t, we did just see someone receive an awfully large quantity of regeneration energy from someone else this episode. (After all, who says that the Doctor we were watching in Let’s Kill Hitler was the original Doctor, and not an autonomous duplicate?)
Also it’s worth noting, in favor of the duplicate-Doctor theory, that in The Impossible Astronaut the Doctor who gets killed doesn’t appear to have a TARDIS.
Bruuuuce
@Erin: It’s not River Song in the spacesuit, though; it’s Melody Pond (if I’m getting this correct). More, it’s Melody when she’s 11 or so years old, and then regenerates at the end of that ep (in the alley). As Twiffer notes @23, the Plastic Doctor (as I’m calling him) is really flesh, and a near-perfect copy of the Doctor, so should be able to regenerate — or at least, we can believe he can start the process (any imperfections in duplication may cause flaws in completing it, but that’s irrelevant because he doesn’t get the chance).
The main reason I believe he’s the duplicate is that he’s 200 years older than the Doctor as we know him — and later, the Doctor claims to be his “correct” age. That being the case (and also, the “younger” Doctor acting more like the Doctor as we know him), the best explanation is that the dead Doctor is a duplicate (and we’ve been handed one on a silver platter this season).
zzyzx
The fact that it was handed on a silver platter is why I refuse to believe they’d go that route to resolve the Doctor’s death. Too too too easy/
twiffer
@Bruuuuce: other hints about duplicate doctors…river’s “that’s a whole other birthday…” comment. now, we are supposed to assume ganger doctor melted when they sonic’d crazy ganger-jen/j-horror monster. but, while rule 1 is “the doctor lies”, rule 0 is “moffat lies”.
here is what i am certain of:
1. moffat has this story arc, if not fully fleshed out, well-sketched and outlined since river appeared in the library. he leaves a tasty trail of bread-crumbs for us, but we typically only see them on a re-watch.
2. amy is scottish
3. rory is being nicely developed. and is badass at need (frankly, the truest kind of badass, i think)
and that’s about it, for certainty. i don’t think we’ll get a full resolution at season’s end. i expect closure along the lines of what happened with the cracks in time (though, probably without another reboot of the universe)…we find something out and it leads to a host of additional questions. but i’m not certain. i’m not certain of anything.
i like that. i like sci-fi, horror, humor, adventure and mystery and wondering just what is going to happen next. moffat’s run has delivered in spades. best thing on the tube right now, for me.
twiffer
@zzyzx: it is also possible that moffat intends to helm the show only as long as smith is the doctor. and so the doctor does actually die. it still gives 200 years of smith’s doctor. and then whomever takes the show over after they leave can figure out how to explain it away. [grin]
Amir Khalid
Since this is an open thread …
Where is Randinho? When will he be back to talk about real football? I really need him to say something about the Manchester United-Arsenal game. How does a Champion’s league level club side manage to lose 8-2? Is it a wake-up call for Arsene Wenger, or will he sleep on until he gets tossed out of his job-for-life?
Bruuuuce
@twiffer: What I’ve heard (and can’t find right now) is that while Smith is signed for another year, neither Karen Gillan nor Arthur Darvill is confirmed as returning. So it appears we will have to endure Moffatt for another series of drama trumping quality. (Can’t we just dump him and let Neil Gaiman write the whole series? That’d be brilliant.)
kdaug
@Bruuuuce:
It’s a moral imperative.
Erin
I just can’t buy the “Dead Doctor is a duplicate”, even though that does seem to be the most popular theory right now. I know we’ve been handed one on a silver platter already; that’s why I think it CAN’T be happening here, because it’s just too obvious.
Also it was young Melody Pond in the spacesuit when we saw her during Nixon’s administration. That doesn’t mean it was Melody Pond in the spacesuit on April 22, 2011.
I think what I’m getting at is that the whole “Astronaut shoots the Doctor” is something that we know virtually nothing about. We saw it at a distance. There was a conversation we didn’t hear. We’re making a whole lot of assumptions, none of which might come true.
Finally, I think I also have a theory as to why the Silence and the eye-patch woman hate the Doctor. Remember when Mels twice said in class that disasters happened because “The Doctor wasn’t there to save them”? I wonder if that’s all part of it. If maybe the idea of a “war” is because there’s some group of people incredibly pissed off at the Doctor that he doesn’t save everyone (after all, he has a time machine) or perhaps that the Doctor didn’t save their particular civilization. Perhaps the Doctor’s sins are not sins of commission, but rather of omission.
– Erin
A Random Lurker Temporarily Decloaked
@Bruuuuce: Wrong — Karen confirmed at Comic Con that she’d be returning for at least some of series seven, and since then, Arthur has confirmed he is as well. Some folks have speculated that they’d be on in a more limited fashion (like Martha in series 4), but I’m not sure how much credence I give that at this point.
Moonbatman
DENIERS !!!!1!!
THE SCIENCE IS SETTLED!!!1!
Elusive subatomic particle may not exist after all
twiffer
non-doctor related, saw this on cnn:
and naturally assumed “the whisperer in the dark” will be playing out in reality over the next few months.
JoJo
I don’t have any interest whatsoever in Amy, Rory or River, so I’ve given up on DW until Steven Moffat leaves.
TenguPhule
Anyone who considers DR. Who a kids show need only watch the Weeping Angels episode “Blink” to be convinced otherwise.
Comrade Mary
NOBODY puts Hitler in the cupboard!
(Well, Rory did, which is why I love him and this hot mess of an episode.)
A Random Lurker Temporarily Decloaked
@TenguPhule: You realize that Moffet (ie, the writer of said episode and current showrunner) has said he considers it a kids show that adults enjoy as well?
The problem is that most people think “kids show” necessarily means crap, when it doesn’t have to.
I think “Blink” is an amazing episode, one of the better episodes of any show in general, but it doesn’t demonstrate that Doctor Who isn’t a kids show — it demonstrates that kids shows can be truly excellent.
twiffer
@A Random Lurker Temporarily Decloaked: sure kid’s shows can be excellent. doctor who is not for children. sure, it was originally conceived as an educational children’s show. doesn’t mean it still is. doesn’t matter that moffat said it’s a kid’s show; moffat lies. often and gleefully.
blink is fantastic horror. sure, kids can dig horror, so it might not be the best example. would you consider the doctor going to great lengths to prove the flesh gangers are people (sentient beings who, despite sharing memories, etc. are worthy of life), then, essentially, murdering the amy ganger, to be targeted at children?
while it doesn’t matter…it matters. like it or not, there is a stigma attached to “children’s shows”. they are not to be taken seriously. like it or not, nearly all science fiction gets tarred with this stigma; it is for “children” and thus not to be taken seriously. well, fuck that. sci-fi is, perhaps, the most inventive and open genre for exploring society, culture, human relations, philosophy and any “serious” question one might have. doctor who is fraught with sexual tension, questions of morality (such as constant lingering guilt and doubt over committing genocide), questions of mortality, questions of the roles and responsibilities of life in the universe…these are all firmly in the nebulous realm of “adult themes”. the monsters don’t cancel that out.
A Random Lurker Temporarily Decloaked
@twiffer: You mentioned that there is a stigma attached to children’s shows, and that it’s also attached to sci-fi. I reject that sci-fi has the stigma because it is considered for kids — I believe it has it for other reasons, and also because people sometimes think it’s for kids.
& I think exploring the issues doesn’t make it something that children don’t appreciate or understand, and I don’t think it means that it isn’t primarily target at children. Avatar: the Last Airbender was definitely targeted at children, and also explored some fairly complex and morally ambiguous issues.
I think that the stigma is going to be attached to sci-fi and related genres for a very long time. If anything, it seems more likely the in-roads will be made the other way, by persuading people that media aimed at kids can be worthwhile. People have already begun to think this way, to some extent, with things like Harry Potter.
So I think instead of trying to convince people that Who isn’t a kids show (which, since you can have perfectly legitimate debates about that, means you won’t have much luck unless they’re already a fan, or just won’t ever care), the goal should be to convince people that being aimed partially (or even mostly) at kids doesn’t mean it can’t have value and be quite complex. I think it’s quite likely that battle will be won before the battle to convince most people to take sci-fi seriously, and that it’s an integral part of winning that latter battle.
virag
really? i liked moffat’s writing for doctor who, especially the eccleston vehicle empty child/doctor dances, but his showrunning has somehow sucked all the life out of the show for me. it’s like, who cares? something about moffat and matt smith just make it lifeless. alex kingston is really chewing the scenery, though.