"Scots have given it 110%," says @AlbertoNardelli pic.twitter.com/xpYsX8wfoB
— James Ball (@jamesrbuk) September 18, 2014
It’s official, per the Guardian, as of about 1:30am EDT:
Alex Salmond, Scotland’s first minister, is speaking now.
He thanks Scotland for 1.6m votes for independence.
There will be a majority for no, he says…
Scotland has decided “at this stage” not to become an independent country.
He accepts that, he says. And he calls on all people in Scotland to accept that too.
Salmond says the turnout of 86% has been a triumph for democratic politics.
And letting 16 and 17-year-olds vote has been a triumph, he says. No one will every again dispute their right to take part in elections.
He says, in accordance with clause 30 of the Edinburgh agreement, he will accept the result and work with London in the best interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK.
The unionist parties made promise, he says. They promised the second reading of a Scotland bill by 27 March. The Scots will expect that promise to be honoured, he says…
Prime Minister David Cameron is supposed to be speaking shortly, but nothing out of his mouth at this stage is liable to have much
relationship to the truth impact over the long term.
97% turnout in Scotland. The US couldn't get that level of civic participation if we gave everyone a free stuffed crust pizza for voting.
— MacNeil Jaehnert (@macjaeh) September 18, 2014
(Okay, the final numbers seem to be closer to 86%… but the voting percentage in American presidential elections haven’t broken 60% since 1968.)
Reposted from below:
“I hate bloody Scotland and all the c*nts from it.”
The 97% number refers to the share of eligible voters who registered to vote. In many areas of Scotland this is supposed to have been the highest voter turnout since the introduction of universal suffrage.
Well thank funk for that. It’s bad enough living in a Britain with a Tory dominated Coalition Government. Sans Scotland we would have had the real thing with no real prospect of ousting them without electoral changes.
Villago Delenda Est
Cameron is still such a fucking jackhole. The Tories would be wise to toss his ass…he very nearly cost them Scotland.
Still, I think this vote reflects the uncertainty about going it alone, and allows Spain to breathe a sigh of relief that a precedent hasn’t been set for Catalonia.
Good for the Scots. A “yes” vote would have been a disaster for the US, the UK and for Scotland. I was thrilled to see the turnout though. I sure wish the US could do that.
What the fuck do you mean Scotland won’t be free? Of course Scotland is free. Ir’s moronic and insulting to the majority of Scots who voted not to trash their country.
A Humble Lurker
Maybe I’m wrong but I think it’s a repurposed quote from somewhere.
As an Englishman, pleased the “Yes” vote was under 50% but over 40%. This means the promise of “Devo Max” by the main UK parties will have to be addressed. This may end up in the process changing the UK constitution for the better. A perfect opportunity to deal with the anachronism of an unelected second chamber if greater federalism in the UK results.
Sticky times for Cameron ahead with his more backward backbenchers and even cabinet members.
@mikej: Just (mis)quoting the Scottish ballad I linked early Thursday morning, didn’t mean to offend the ‘No Thanks’ coalition voters.
Major Major Major Major
Been learning how to crochet.
Tried a new method. Still learning. I think the new method must explain how those two green threads got into this otherwise blue and white thing i made, and couldn’t possibly have anything to do with anything involving recent international politics or my feelings thereby.
It’s moronic and offensive to equate a vote for independence with “trashing” our country, but we got pretty used to that from the Better Together campaign.
And people who say we were abandoning the rest of the UK to Tory domination are just plain wrong. There have only been 2 Labour governments (short-lived ones too) which depended on Scottish votes. For example, Tony Blair won outright majorities of English seats. If England wants better politicians, then fucking elect them!
So all you happy people breathe a sigh of relief – we will come and die in your next pointless war I’m sure :(
Major Major Major Major
@Singular: Hear hear.
ETA: Agreed. The best way to get rid of the Tories is to stop fucking voting for them. And the Scots weren’t the ones doing that.
Or tell me jokes! keta tells a good one in comments. I’m not sure this one I heard Tom Conti tell in Whose Life Is It, Anyway? is supposed to be about Scots, but what the hell: Two Scots are in Vatican City, thirsty. They go into a trattoria, order two pints of ale. They are informed there’s no ale, no lager either. “Well,” says one, “what’s yer Pope drink?” Benedictine, he is told. “Right,” says the other Scot, “two pints of Benedictine.” In short order the two men are legless. “So this is what yer Pope drinks?” says one; “Christ, no wonder they’re always carryin’ him about in a fookin’ chair then.”
Glad the Scots as a whole made this decision. I could not figure how separation would be a long term good with them having a smaller population than greater Houston and limited horizons for type of diverse and egalitarian economy needed in a modern state of any size.
Maybe at least for a while, the south will get over itself and stop treating the north as simply a butt for its jokes.
where is William Wallace and Robert the Bruce when we really need them?
Will Scotland ne’er be free?
I so wanted to sing Scots Wha Hae not it is Scots Nae Hae.
According to the Treaty of Edinbugh Northhampton Scotland is recognized by England as fully independant and that should be the case now
Thats what happens when you leave the administration of elections to parochial interests (the States). I would submit to you that ‘voter apathy’ is not a bug, but a feature of the administration of American electoral politics. When you allow the prohibition of voting for life if a person has been convicted of a felony and then proceed to wage a 4 decade “war on drugs” and “crime” in general that results in the highest global incarceration rate, I gotta figure some of you policy makers aren’t interested in what The Voters think.
@Villago Delenda Est:
I just heard a clip of Cameron saying he would negotiate with Scotland. Has he already gone back on his word? I thought he was making concrete promises all last week.
“and then” he said nervously orbiting the two marbles in his left hand “there were the voter registration incidents. Where I proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, and with geometric logic…”
If the former Confederacy somehow had a referendum on secession (a binding one would not be constitutionally possible, but suppose it were), I guarantee there would be turnout like nothing we’ve seen before. Though there would also be particularly energetic efforts to keep certain people from voting.
I’m trying to figure out any Scot grievances beyond raw, whiny white butthurt tribalism, but am drawing a blank.
If you’re participating fully in the electoral process, eligible fully to participate in local and national government, have the ability to participate at all levels of the national and local defense structure AND receive a roughly equitable allocation of resources for services and infrastructure, then what the fuck are you whining about? And it isn’t as if there isn’t a long tradition of Scot participation.
White people engaging in tribalism tends to turn bad for everyone not in the tribe.
SNP couldn’t even win a rigged election, what with that shitty trick of bringing the idiot passions of 16 year olds aboard.
The best part — aside from the fact that it was settled peacefully and democratically — is that we won’t be plagued with endless clips from Braveheart any more.
It’s the fuck off to Salmond, and deserved.
@debbie: All three of the major UK (Westminster) parties committed themselves to devolving greater powers to the Scottish Parliament during the campaign. In practical poltical terms it will be impossible for Cameron to renege on that. the other two Westminster parties are committed to doing it, and they could theoretically bring down the government over it. More seriously, if no further powers were devolved, the SNP would feel perfectly entitled to hold another referendum, and the very conspicuous show of bad faith on the Conservatives part would ensure a “Yes” vote, as the referendum makes abundantly clear.
As I indicated above Cameron is going to be between a rock and a hard place with his backbenchers, but if the Union has a long term future, there is no alternative to working out a form of “Devo Max” as promised by the three main Westminster parties (maximum devolution) where virtually everything except defence and foreign policy is worked out at the intra-national level. This was the negotiation Cameron was talking about.
This is quite an exciting development in the Politics of the entire United Kingdom as the constitutional status quo is untenable. The future suggests a much greater degree of federation.
@Botsplainer: Trident missiles, poll tax, bedroom tax. That’s what the fuck they’re whining about.
And David Cameron, in negotiations, traded enfranchising 16 and 17 year olds for removing the option of Devo Max from the ballot question. So, not a shitty trick.
The thing is, there’s no evidence that the 16-17 year olds voted any differently than the general population. Every Scots politician I heard on the BBC last night was saying the energy their participation gave to the process meant that all sides would be recommending that they voted in the next UK General election. In fact, the most enthusiastic advocate I heard for this was one of the main leaders of the “No” campaign.
Celtic Uprising Postponed needn’t worry. Cameron’s difficulties have only just started…
Do you think the Yeses might have won if they had been more specific in how things would work in an independent Scotland?
One of my pet peeves is the “Establishment” “disgust” at the relatively low turn-outs in American elections, when after all a great deal of that is by the design of the very same establishment (the whole point of the new Republican Voter ID laws is to make harder for students, working people, very old people, and poor people to vote and make the electorate as white and upper middle class baby boomer as possible). Most countries either hold their elections on Sunday (when few work) or like Scotland yesterday, have very long hours (7:00 AM to 10:00 PM). So it is relatively easy for working people to vote. It is also ahistorical since large parts of the population were not allowed to vote for much of American history (all white males had the vote by the 1830s, African -American males (in theory) by 1868, women in 1919 (that is 51% right there). The and of course there were all the local laws (poll taxes and literacy tests) to make sure only the right people voted. In the 1948 election, Truman’s famous upset win, only 53% of voting age eligible population voted (again, primarily because in lots of States voting while Black was something that was both difficult and dangerous to do).
I liked how Westminster was going to simply fund the pensions and do the right thing on infrastructure and services, while the sub facilities at Faslane would be turned into a school of social work or some stupid shit like that. The Yes Site should be left in place forever as an example of propaganda done badly.
All puppies and rainbows and unicorns and fairies, about what you’d expect from an aggregate effort of greens, socialists and rabid nationalists. All that was missing was a drum circle and giant puppet parade.
The problem is it wouldn’t have worked, and Salmond knew it which is why he appealed to hearts and not heads.
They hit peak oil about 10 years ago, and to claim their economy could survive on dwindling reserves was plain bollocks.
@Botsplainer: You can fuck off. Trolling is just fine if it’s funny, but if you’re not trolling, you know nothing about the issues, the politics or the whole fucking situation, and are a… what’s the word?… douche?
Yes! They can be taught!
Seriously, well put, and I do have to believe it’s a feature, not a bug. On the other hand, given the number of people who could vote but choose not to, it’s no great wonder that….
I was out drinking with an acquaintance some years back, and got into a political discussion. He came out with the old throwaway line “don’t vote, it only encourages them”, and I remarked that for someone who was ostensibly a smart guy, he’d just come out with the stupidest single comment I’d ever heard. He took serious offense, for reasons that I’m at a total loss to explain.
@debbie: That’s really difficult to say. I think the vagueness about how the currency issue was going to be resolved probably didn’t help. If the SNP really fear bad faith from the Westminster parties, it might pay them to set some great minds on the problem now, just in case.
The meaning of the referendum is very difficult to parse as it’s clear that some places which elect SNP MPs, MSPs and MEPs in majorities didn’t vote for independence. However, even in areas that the traditional parties, esp labour are strong, very large numbers did vote for Independence.
@John S.: Peak oil? Less than half the CURRENT reserves have been extracted. New fields are opening up all the time, drilling techniques are improving. Some are off-limits because we have some of your nukes in the way too!
Heaven forbid that anyone would place a value on fair-sized OIL RESERVES? I mean don’t nations invade other nations over this? Didn’t we help you kill brownish people last time round so oil companies + Halliburton could get fatter?
Were you actually in Scotland during any of this election, or are you just parroting memes from the media (mainly the Daily Mail, by the sound of it)?
This vote has seen the greatest political engagement witnessed in my time on earth, abnd the Yes vote went well beyond “rabid nationalists.” These people include my friends, my neighbors. Given the heat and the misinformation doing the rounds, it’s amazing how revelatory and good-natured the whole process has been.
So Westminster is going to do the right thing on pensions? What’s your retirement age at the moment? What will it be in five years’ time? The Uk government itself had to point out that pensions in Scotland were not under threat in the face of No campaign scaremongering, which you seem to still be clinging to.
So services are being maintained. How’d that bedroom tax pan out? How many people in your area now have to rely on food banks? How’s that privatisation of the NHS working for you?
So none of the UK infrastructure is crumbling through lack of investment except in the overheated south east of England?
BTW, Faslane was slated as the base for the Scottish Navy, once the small detail of removing its rUK subs and nukes was thrashed out (yeah, right …).
What color is the sky in your world? Because I’d like to recognize it so I can avoid it.
It is difficult to parse. The simplest and clearest metric I’ve seen is that areas of high social deprivation went Yes, those not similarly afflicted to the same extent went No.
Oh boo, fuckity, hoo. So which are you? A tribalist, apt to stomp the shit out of the rights of ethnic and religious minorities at a moment’s notice (because that’s what Scot diasporans in the US tend to do), or are you an earnest left theoretician, full of utopian ideals?
It isn’t as if Scots haven’t been enthusiastic partners (and beneficiaries as well) with the English in expanding empire and extracting wealth around the world for the past 300 years.
My thesis on Scottish independence didn’t submit or got lost, and I know you all cant wait to read it so I’ll summarise…
1) The SNP wanted 3 questions on the ballot, one being “devolution-max”. The Tories knew that this would probably win, and they also thought they would slaughter a straight-up vote, so they blocked it. In the closing stages of the campaign, they were falling over themselves to hand out devo-max, which they have already started walking back and weaselling out of.
2) Through the most epic mismanagement ever, they turned a 70-30 vote into a 55-45 result. Lots of PR people, government aides and journalists should lose their jobs, because we should not reward stooped.
3) Scotland is a relatively rich, diverse country. Everyone who knows anything accepts that we could be a success as a nation.
4) I’m pretty sure that most of you guys voted for the politics of hope rather than fear last time round. Oh, and he was .. err .. not white! What a leap into the unknown! Were all your hopes realised? Probably not. Did things get better? Yes.
5) The situations are nothing like the same, I know. But your nation fought a war of independence for the right to self-determination, and you want us to stay cosy for 2 reasons – for the sake of togetherness and security (noble) and through sheer naked self-interest (base).
I apologize for being shrill, but I’ve been up all night and I’m allowing myself a day to feel sore before I move on. Most of you do not have a clue what it has been like here. We have been bombarded with messages which basically say we are worth shit and piss, but we are still loved. I feel like I’ve been kicked in the balls.
Any indication of the vote also being a referendum on Cameron’s love of austerity? I’d love to see this vote as also being about Cameron, but this may just be wishful thinking.
“So which are you? A tribalist, apt to stomp the shit out of the rights of ethnic and religious minorities at a moment’s notice (because that’s what Scot diasporans in the US tend to do), or are you an earnest left theoretician, full of utopian ideals?”
Okay I’ll shut up and go stomp some minorities ;)
… while being handed a hastily purchased remaindered service station bouquet that’s down to its last petal?
@Singular: You are not shrill at all. In fact. in reply to the nasty, ugly, uninformed vehemence above, you’ve been quite polite.
Hopefully Scotland lives to fight again another day :)
@YAFB: Thank you, seriously, that’s the first proper laugh I’ve had today :)
Thank you for your information. Over here in the Midwest, the coverage was largely kilts, bars, and subtitles for those “whacky” accents.
As a rule, I support independence, but the economy issue had me worried, especially when the banks were threatening to pull out of Scotland. They are beginning to sound as hateful as the banks over here.
@mikej: It’s an allusion, and one not meant seriously.
@Major Major Major Major:
No quarreling with that.
I think there are as many reads on this as there are pundits at the moment (not least because a lot of them are as exhausted as the populace and a bit punchy by this stage). But Cameron’s poularity in Scotland is about as bad as any Tory leader since Thatcher, and many No voters will have had to hold their noses hard as they voted.
You could see it as a referendum on all sorts of things other than/as well as independence, but basically it boils down to being a vote against the status quo, whatever dimension you choose.
To ensure a win (in effect, a vote for the status quo dressed up as promises of change), the No camp had to break “purdah” (the agreement that no policy initiatives would be announced in the immediate run-up to the vote), to trot out Labour and other hoary old apparatchiks like Gordon Brown to promise, in effect, that the Tories aren’t as bad as all that, honest, we can do a deal with them offering all sorts of goodies and they’ll stand by it once they’ve got what they want, and no, they won’t really carry on dismantling the NHS and stripping public services etc. Then the other side of their mouths will be singing a different tune for a different audience soon enough.
As it happens, this referendum and its aftermath will have lasting knock-on effects that are unlikely to favor Labour in Scotland or the UK. It’s excited an appetite to look afresh at the constiutional settlement of the whole UK, with revision of Scottish funding and the arrangements for representation and funding in the English, Welsh and Northern Irish regions. It plays into the rising English nationalism within the Tory party and beyond, and will mesh unpleasantly with the mooted referendum on EU membership.
I could be wrong, but I think Salmond and the SNP will emerge relatively unscathed, and may well see their stock rise.
Your spittle-flecked rant is indicative of the point I was making. When you have the facts, you pound the facts. When you don’t have the facts, you pound the table.
Clearly, the majority of Scots when into the polls and decided to use their heads rather than their hearts. The facts just didn’t add up.
Good for Scotland. Salmond’s government would have been a fucking disaster.
Here’s the SNP’s Five Point Plan for Trashing your Own Country:
1. Erect a brand new barrier between you and your biggest trade partner
2. Scare your largest companies into moving to London
3. Pin your long-term budget hopes on free-falling oil revenues
4. Adopt a currency you don’t control
5. Threaten to default on your debt
Scotland would have been asking for a bailout within five years.
Don’t we have enough of our own shit?
Cry hippie, cry.
At least you didn’t shriek the useless left shibboleth of “war to steal oil”. It’s actually “war to assuage the trembly xenophobic right wing racist desire of Israelis in expanding a version of Eretz Israel without calling it that”. The oil price instability that results from commodity speculators manipulating data and pretending a great disruption due to war conditions is just a bonus profit incentive.
Was it this guy?
Yeah. ‘Cause that whole “Turn on, Tune in, Drop out” thing worked so well for us back in the ’60s.
“Oh boo, fuckity, hoo. So which are you? A tribalist, apt to stomp the shit out of the rights of ethnic and religious minorities at a moment’s notice ”
The most upset “Yes” person on the beeb panel I watched last night was a Sikh Glaswegian in a pale blue turban, and the shots of “Yes” campaign reactions showed that there were no shortage of minority supporters for the “Yes” campaign. In fact, the diversity of people on show in both camps was marked. I am as wary of the grimmer side of nationalism as you are, but I think you’re barking up the wrong tree in the Scottish case.
I do agree with Mustang Bobby about Braveheart, though…
Second the motion about the Braveheart clips – you know all you need to know about that movie when you know it’s one of Newt Gingrich’s total faves.
But yeah, amazingly, a vote for secession and not one round fired (at least so far).
Villago Delenda Est
@raven: Oh, no. We need to get involved in shit on the other side of the pond!
And would have been held forth as an example of the failure of turning leftward for decades to come by US right wing pundits.
Villago Delenda Est
@danielx: Given how fast and loose Braveheart was with history, and given Mel Gibson’s epic douchcanoeship overall, yes.
As compared to Ireland’s “Celtic Tiger” begging for a bail-out after their no-regulation, free-enterprise ventures?
Gordon Brown and Tony Blair: In a league of their own.
Scots in Scotland must be better people than Scots who wound up in the American South and Appalachian areas, then.
Notice how you don’t generally hear a lot of connection between condition and cause on that one?
Feature, not bug.
@Villago Delenda Est:
He had two really good movies. Mad Max and Lethal Weapon.
I don’t remember enough about Anzacs (or if he was in Gallipoli) for an opinion.
@debbie: I put a lot of hard thought into my decision, even at the last moment at the polling station I was shitting myself, for my economic security, for my 3-year old daughter’s future.
But I just felt that there was a kindof moral obligation to give it a try. I think there is money in Scotland, and I want that money for our schools and our nurseries and our hospitals, I don’t want a fucking tax break. These are things that the SNP have successfully defended, first as a minority then as a majority government.
We have no tuition fees, we have free travel for seniors, free prescriptions. Our NHS is not slowly becoming a creeping hell-hole of private contractors and reduced staffing levels. My wife is a nurse, all her friends are nurses, they are so impressive in their dedication, I’m a bit scared of them :) My 77 mother recently “beat” Oesophageal cancer. She had the best healthcare I’ve ever seen, for nothing more than a slightly higher tax rate. Make no mistake, the Tories despise the NHS, and I don’t give a shit what Cameron says about his son Ivan. My heart went out to him, and I don’t think he’s a genuinely bad guy, but he has to appease his base…
They call Scotland the most subsidised country in the UK. Rubbish, we get about £1000 more per head than England, Wales gets about the same, and Northern Ireland gets a whopping 9.5K per head. They do this to keep us happy with our crumbling inner-cities, our horrible child poverty, our shocking alcohol problem and our bullshit sectarian divide. While crossing half the globe to kill people of different colour or religion.
My dad worships America. I mean he was evacuated in WW2 and grew up getting bombed, he talked about the fear and resolve and the sheer gratitude towards America for coming and FUCKING SAVING US! Which you did, but you saved the people, not the damn government. Scotland will always be your friend, an independent Scotland would have been a good friend, maybe better than the current UK lapdog.
Now the SNP are doing this in part for political reasons, I have a very smart+cynical friend who always called them “The Scottish Tories”, but I have started to believe they actually mean some of what they say. Any chance at any kind of new politics should be grasped, because we all know where this road leads?
Sorry, but I did hear quite a lot about that connection.
My bet would be that the prize would actually go to the Country of Wall Street.
I did and you did, because we’re news and policy junkies and the stories that did get written interested us. Nine out of 10 people you ask on the street here? Not so much.
@John S.: I didn’t feel like I had come out with a “spittle-flecked rant” but fair enough, I do feel strongly about this.
And with all due respect, I’ve not heard you come out with a single fact so far. So we have our opinions – the difference is it’s more than an intellectual exercise for me.
Years ago, when Labour was still Labour (pre-Kinnock, never mind Blair), I was very active in my constituency party. On the stump, “Tartan Tories” was a common jibe about the SNP. Once Salmond re-took the leadership after a dalliance with right-of-centrism, they moved sharply left-of center and have been there since, effectively stealing Labour’s old unwanted clothes. There’s no doubt that in certain regions the SNP still attracts votes from those of a more rightwing persuasion by local candidates watering down the platform and telling them some of what they want to hear, but they have to swallow hard to stomach the social initiatives the national party enacts.
Ironically, you could say this about the “Yes” campaign as well.
Wishes and facts are two distinct things.
You can lead a raddled old donkey to water, but you evidently can’t make him read or listen.
Not voting has been ‘cool’ in America for a long time. Just like being a political ‘Independent’. Cynicism will always be hip. But it takes more than being smart or ironic to make the situation better. It takes some work and participation. Ceding the field to the assholes only makes it okay in peoples eyes to be an asshole.
@YAFB: Yes the “Tartan Tories”, that was it!
The sticking point for my friend was that an independent Scotland would immediately lower corporation tax to minus 5% to attract investment while shitting on the workers. Now, they would lower corporation tax a bit probably, but Westminster are doing just fine with that anyway. Anyway, I’m pretty sure he voted YES yesterday in the end.
Anyway, a snooze is in order for me. At least when I wake up there won’t be more than the standard uncertainty in my future. I’ll just feel that an opportunity has been missed. I do believe in democracy, and the nation has decided. Although the people with the money and the media (and don’t even go there commenters, unless you have been watching the BBC and reading UK dailies for the last 3 weeks) have won :)
Nice pic… http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/19/1411118046193/Pro-independence-supporte-011.jpg
They had an 86% turnout…can’t say folks didn’t vote.
Can I say that I love that it was paper ballot
I don’t think it’s pure hype to say the country won’t be the same again.
Whether voter engagement will be sustained is something we’ll have to wait and see (there obviously won’t be 90%-ish turnouts again in the near future, if ever), but a lot of people have taken the opportunity to talk politics, to educate themselves and each other about the issues, and they’ll have a number of object lessons about what politicians will tell them to secure their votes, and not at all least, how craven and small-minded the media can be (seriously, the coverage has been parlous for the most part, and people have had to explore face-to-face and social media contacts to get a clearer idea of what’s going on).
If the Yes camp (not just the SNP, but the Greens, for instance) can’t capitalize on that, I’ll be surprised.
It looks like the rest of the UK’s about to embark on a similar discussion. A bullshit visor would be a good investment at this point.
I hope to God the English get the bit between their teeth and ask for secession themselves. Right now the Scots can vote on English issues but the English can’t vote on Scot issues. Screw that sideways.
On the other hand, if the Scots can get it together and pick up some allies they can kick the Tories in the teeth.
Ah. Decisions, decisions.
And people who say we were abandoning the rest of the UK to Tory domination are just plain wrong.
Ah, no, check your figures. Over the last six decades or so it’s been rare for Labour to hit 50% or more of seats in England and Wales. The Tory advantage isn’t that big, but it is there, and it’s baked into the cake of electoral boundries. It’s not impossible for Labour to form a Government without Scotish seats, but it would be very, very difficult.
Yes, Blair won a majority of English seats, but that was in a period when the Tories were about as electorally toxic as it’s possible for a Party to be and they were reduced to their absolute bare minimum base vote. Unfortunately Blair’s own colossal toxicity has done a lot to give Cameron’s Tories a nice, big buffer between them and the memories of Thatcher’s Britain, and with the British media’s hard-right drumbeat of hate for foreigners, minorities and the poor carving open room for the even further right UKIP I’d much rather keep Scotland and her MPs inside the Union as a bulwark against them.
Selfish, maybe, but a majority of Scots have voted to give me what I want, for which I’m very grateful.
That’s because you’re an ignoramus.
Uh, not idea why the above is in bold. And I can’t edit. You get the gist.
@Botsplainer: Gallipoli is a great movie and Mel Gibson was very good in it.
POTUS elections not breaking 60% isn’t even the worst of it in the US. Local elections, which arguably are more important to average people’s lives generally only get 20-30% turnout of eligible voters. Sad and pathetic. But non-voters often have a lot to say about politics and politicians – universally how bad the system is and politicians are. Clearly such non-voters are the biggest Jack-Holes around. If they’re not going to vote, they should STFU because no one gives a crap what they think.
I understand it’s an emotional issue for you and a lot of people. My point of fact – based on Debbie’s question – is that Salmond stuck to the emotional case, and clearly that resonated with a lot of folks.
I suspect he did not make the intellectual case of really explaining how an independent Scotland would stand on its own because he didn’t have a strong case to make.
@Tony J: I’ve been looking at this lately but an ideologically biased but factually correct summary:
Dammit my faculties are shot…
Mike in NC
I visited the SSBN facility at Faslane about 25 years ago. There was a large contingent of anti-nuclear protesters outside the base in tents and trailers (caravans). We were told they were basically a permanent fixture, not an infrequent thing.
@Mike in NC:
I may have waved at you!
@Mike in NC: Yeah we really don’t like the nukes, dirty hippies that we are. Or a lot of us don’t. The others, the ones that LOVE the nukes, well you probably wouldn’t enjoy having a pint with them ;)
@Keith G: Norway has lower population than Scotland and has done just fine since separation from Sweden.
@kc: yep. Pretty much.
@Major Major Major Major:
I don’t want to alarm you, but you appear to have learned how to weave, not how to crochet. Weaving is a helluva lot of fun, though — you can move up to one of these if you’re enjoying it.
(If you were crocheting, your result would have looked something more like this.)
Well, well. Not entirely surprised but I didn’t see this coming and still don’t think it was necessary. Looks like nobody’ll have Alex Salmond to kick around any more:
My money’s on Nicola Sturgeon to replace him.
@Botsplainer: The Scots that were in the Appalachians were mostly illiterates who had to flee the “Clearances”. Modern Scots are fully educated and cosmpolitan, and there have also been generations of immigrants as well to make things more liberal.
One thing I’ve noticed in this week of attention (thanks Twitter) is that once again, we’ve been re-introduced to peoples that have usually been smothered under the MSM propaganda, and usually negatively-and found out they were fully modern and ready to be modern.
Scotland had Reaganomics full tilt-without a Democratic Congress to mitigate the worst effects. Think of the reaction when Maggie Thatcher finally went to her just punishment-and you see why so many Scots voted for independence.
I have no opinion either way, but the currency and division of sovereign debt questions are the ones I’d want solid answers to before I vote ‘yes’ to independence if I were a Scot.
Never mind having Spain object to EU membership for an independent Scotland.
My money’s on the Country of Hollywood.
Ask not what your country can do for you
Ask what your country can do for Warner Bros
@YAFB: I know it will probably be Nicola Sturgeon but there’s a part of me that would love for it to be Houmza Yousaf for the entirely US-centric selfish purpose of watching American right wing heads explode ;).
The over 55’s voted ‘No’ quite heavily (about 30-60 + undecided) compared to younger people according to the polls, so in 20 years or so there might be a majority for independence. ‘Yes’ had a majority in every age group under 45.
No comment on that — but I do want to add one thing: Young Flora McDonald, who famously helped young Charlie escape “over the sea to Skye,” herself escaped over the sea to North Carolina, where her husband fought on behalf of the Crown in the American Revolution. Having thus proved their loyalty, I think they went back over the sea afterwards.
The results ended up about where I thought they would. Over 40 percent but under 50 for “aye”.
Most people are reluctant to make huge, sweeping changes unless a situation has become intolerable.
However, there were enough votes for independence that it can’t be dismissed as a fringe position.
I probably have a very strange perspective on this, speaking as an anglophone Canadian of Scottish extraction (two grandparents born there, and the rest of the ancestry is pretty solidly Scottish, although from way back)…I’m actually happy with the “No” vote, because I saw a lot of similarities between the SNP campaign and the Bloc Quebecois separatistes, in terms of what I might call faulty logistics and unwarranted assumptions. The separatistes maintained that they were going to continue to use the Canadian dollar and postal system, and wanted free and uncompensated access to infrastructure paid for with tax dollars, and I see some parallels there with the SNP.
Good on the SNP for not blaming their electoral loss on “the [big-city] ethnic vote,” which in Quebec politics parlance is extremely unsubtle code for “Jews,” as a Bloquiste did. Of course, you don’t also have the problems of negotiating land borders and treaty settlements with local indigines, which complicates things further.
All I know is I have a really bad Bloc hangover this morning.
@Calouste: the over-55s will always be with us. I was a member of the SNP for a couple of years when back in the 1970s. I voted No yesterday as an over-55.
The one small thing I take from this referendum is that the 16 and 17-year olds turned out to vote given the chance and from what I’ve heard they did a good job of figuring out for themselves how they should vote, Yes or No. I’d really like to see the franchise for other elections opened up to them.
Wow, they must think they’re in Wisconsin!
@Botsplainer: One might do better thinking more in terms of individual behavior and less in terms of ethnic or racial stereotypes.
Yes, over 55s will always exist, but generations change. Once the last of the nostalgics leave this earth, replaced by more skeptical generations-less backwards looking generations-independence looks like a lock.
My advice to independence seekers: regroup, re-organize, analyze weak spots, create more long-lasting local media and connections, and work, work, work. Nothing worth having comes cheap or easy-this is the lesson. But the sentiment is out there for those who want it to happen.
It still comes down to US voters and specifically, working class and poor WHITE voters who continually vote against their self interest.
I have been watching the Roosevelts on PBS. It struck me how much during the depression that poor whites supported very aggressive social legislation and government intervention. In later years, however, Nixon then Saint Ronnie were able to convince these poor white fools that their interests and the interests of working class brown and black people were different and got these poor fools to consistently turn back every good piece of help for ALL of us. This won’t change until whites are a minority of the electorate and they will go fighting every step, sadly. Corporate interests have magnified the wedge of course, getting poor whites to support favorable regulations or deregulation in the name of “freedom” and the gun lobby also.
This is why we can’t have nice things in the US
Heh. I know what you mean. If he’s got the talent, he’ll continue to rise. Maybe Deputy First Minister?
One of the stars of the Yes campaign was out gay and general good egg (used to know his mother and him when he was a young teen – he’s a chip off the old block, she was cool) Green Party leader Patrick Harvie, who gained respect from all parties (and called out George Galloway in person onstage for his excusing of alleged rape as a matter of “sexual etiquette”), so I hope he’ll take a more prominent role in future (I’ve been known to vote Green in the lists from time to time; in fact, my first ever Westminster vote was for the old Ecology Party that became the Greens), which might make a few heads explode too.
I can think of a few male old hands in the SNP that I wouldn’t be keen on becoming the face of the party/government, so ink me in for Nicola right now.