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You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / EgyptAir Flight MS804 Update

EgyptAir Flight MS804 Update

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Despite reports that wreckage from EgyptAir flight MS 804 had been found, the plane is still missing. The airline is reporting that the wreckage that has been recovered is not from their missing aircraft. While it will be impossible to know exactly what happened until wreckage, including the flight recorders, is found, speculation has already begun that it was an act of terrorism. More specifically it has become part of the presidential primary back and forth between Secretary Clinton and Donald Trump. What I find interesting about this is that none of the groups that one would expect to have made claims of a successful terrorist attack have done so yet. There is one erroneous report from a news agency I’ve never heard of claiming that an Islamic State’s news agency has claimed responsibility. It sources this to the Islamic State’s news agency, but provides no links to their statement.  The only place that this unsourced report has been referenced is at the notoriously unreliable Gateway Pundit, where its already been updated to indicate that this has not been verified on the Islamic State’s news agency’s twitter feed. The link to that twitter feed goes to an account suspended page.

Whether or not this one seeming erroneous report proves out as true or not, the lack of claims of responsibility are very interesting. There are complete update timelines at both the Guardian and BBC articles I’ve linked to above if you’re looking for updates from responsible news media outlets. The updates provide information on what is known now, such as the behavior of the plane based on its radar returns, prior to the crash. As soon as more detailed information comes out, we’ll update. Please remember that as is the case with every type of incident like this, information is moving quickly between multiple sources involved with the search and investigation, and anything reported within the first 72-96 hours may or may not turn out to be accurate.

Consider the comments an open thread to talk about whatever.

Reader Interactions

251Comments

  3. 3.

    redshirt

    @Adam L Silverman: Well, technically I believe the Island had a gravitational effect so it’s not completely mistaken to refer to it as a black hole, since once you got caught in its field you couldn’t get out.

  4. 4.

    Gin & Tonic

    I commented on a thread this morning, that a friend, a journalist based in eastern Europe and central Asia, noted that the first claims that this was terrorism came from the Russian Foreign Ministry and from Donald Trump.

  6. 6.

    Ultraviolet Thunder

    66 lives almost certainly all lost. I’m just going to deal with that for a while before I let the media fold another tragedy into the election horse race.

  8. 8.

    Gin & Tonic

    @redshirt: The Trump-Putin connection does not have to be implied, it can be read in the bio of Paul Manafort. No, this was more about jumping the gun with few (or no) facts.

  9. 9.

    Mike J

    Airbus released a statement. Frame blah blah blah, sold to Egyptair on this date,etc. We’ll provide any assistance we can.

    Airbus will make further factual information available as soon as the details have been confirmed and cleared by the authorities for release.

  11. 11.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Gin & Tonic: I saw that. I have a speculative theory as to why we haven’t seen any of the usual suspects take responsibility yet if it was an act of terrorism.
    This is Complete Speculation!!!!!!
    I think it is just as likely, if it is terrorism, to have been an anti-immigrant/anti-refugee/anti-EU extremist. This would completely trip up the Russian state controlled media narrative as its been widely reported that the funding for the different nationalist and anti-EU movements and parties in the EU countries is coming from the Russians.
    This is Complete Speculation!!!!!!

    Again, I have no idea what actually happened and no one will until the the wreckage and black boxes are found.

  19. 19.

    Mike J

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The Trump-Putin connection does not have to be implied, it can be read in the bio of Paul Manafort.

    Since Tad Devine worked on the same campaign, you could talk about the Trump-Sanders-Putin connection.

  22. 22.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @redshirt: If you are incapable of understanding why a person might think that the loss of 66 lives is a significant thing without having it explained to you, explaining it won’t help.

  23. 23.

    redshirt

    @Omnes Omnibus: That’s what I thought. Gosh, I wonder how many people died on America’s roads today? Heck, I wonder how many died worldwide in car accidents today? Should I be mourning them as well? Or is it only accidents the MSM chooses to focus on I need to sympathize with?

  25. 25.

    lamh36

    if this was a terror attack, and any Americans were killed it’s gonna be interesting to seethe election ramifications

    reasonable folks I think would see this and think ain’t NO WAY we want someone like Donald Trump to handle this…smh.

    Prayers for the families

  29. 29.

    ? Martin

    We’re now how many years into the investigation over why Susan Rice slightly overspoke regarding the motivation behind the Benghazi attack, but Donald Trump definitively stating that this was terrorism, with no information whatsoever will of course be okey-dokey, because reasons.

  31. 31.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    As soon as I saw reports that wreckage was found and saw a map of where the wreckage was, and where the plane disappeared, it was clear to me that the wreckage wasn’t of MS804. It was too far away, and it was too soon to actually find pieces.

    AW&ST makes the point that Egypt was trying desperately to get tourism back up after the previous incident.

    The disappearance of EgyptAir Flight MS 804 over the Mediterranean Sea early May 19 came as Egypt had begun making progress in shoring up international travel to the country.

    A push to increase tourism to Egypt followed the suspected inflight bombing of a Russian-operated Metrojet Airbus A321 shortly after its Oct. 31, 2015, departure from Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt.

    […]

    On May 15, Andrea Baran, France’s ambassador to Cairo, met Civil Aviation Minister Sharif Fathi of Egypt to discuss marketing programs that would promote French tourism to Egypt. They also discussed how the two countries could coordinate security at Egyptian airports, according to information on the Egyptian Ministry of Civil Aviation’s website.

    […]

    There is no information about the possible cause or causes of EgyptAir MS 804’s disappearance, or whether airport security in Paris or elsewhere was a factor. According to transponder data from Flightradar24, the A320 was cruising at 37,000 ft. at a typical airspeed, maintaining a steady south-southeasterly heading, when it abruptly stopped transmitting position data at 2:33 a.m. Cairo time.

    Greek controllers said the EgyptAir pilots were “jocund” over the radio when cleared to fly to the next waypoint at 1:48 a.m. Cairo time, responding, “Thank you,” in Greek.

    When the Greek controllers called the A320 to transfer the flight to Cairo control about 45 min. later, the pilots did not answer. Several minutes later, the aircraft’s transponder signal disappeared. Search-and-rescue operations were activated at 2:45 a.m. Cairo time, less than 15 min. after the signal was lost.

    It fits the pattern…

    :-(

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  37. 37.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    If we’re going with complete speculation, then let me go with complete speculation: Check the desert between Alexandria and Tobruk.

  38. 38.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: I don’t either. He’s probably one of the SHIELD Agents or Hydra Operatives. Or he could’ve been one of Batroc’s mercenaries.

    Funny story, he was on last season’s NCIS finale and this season’s opener (2 part cliffhanger). I told my Mom that it was my former graduate assistant’s brother and she said: “tell her he did a great job”. So I sent her a text that Mom said your brother did a great job on NCIS. She then asked what role did her brother play. I texted back: “a terrorist”. She texted back “great”.

  44. 44.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @redshirt:

    Any man’s death diminishes me,
    Because I am involved in mankind,
    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
    It tolls for thee.

  46. 46.

    raven

    @Gin & Tonic: It’s sooo different than our normal November trip. The water is 74 and I was able to go out to the second trough repeatedly. I do this when the water is 60 and the air as low as 40 so this was terrific.

  48. 48.

    Betty Cracker

    Weird. It’s like Rachel Maddow has Balloon Juice on her TelePrompTer…

  49. 49.

    redshirt

    @SiubhanDuinne: I agree 100%. Let me know the next time we collectively mourn a ferry overturning in Bangladesh or a Boko Haram raid in Africa or any of the individual thousands who died today in car accidents.

    Life is precious. Every life. But we only pay attention to those deaths the media thinks we should. It’s pathetic.

  52. 52.

    Raven Onthill

    It’s also interesting that there were no distress calls, and yet the plane was, as far as I know, in reach of ground radio for its entire trip. I am left wondering if a missile was used, or the entire cabin crew was killed quickly, perhaps by a bomb.

  54. 54.

    raven

    @Major Major Major Major: Here’s the evidence! Oh yea, it was pretty crowded but I set up in my normal spot. I fished for about 30 minutes being very mindful of the people in the water and where my shit was. A woman came up to me and started to complain and telling me to move. I actually was pretty calm and just told her I wasn’t going anywhere and if she didn’t like it she needed to call the cops.She and her friend hung around for a while and then split and 20 minutes later the beach patrol came uo in his truck. I walked over and said hey to the dude. We shit the shit for a minute and he said a woman had called and they told her I was totally within my rights and he thanked me for paying attention to the swimmers. THEN I caught the fish and that is why I was fishing where I was.

  57. 57.

    trollhattan

    I’ll cast my vote via Occam and presume a bomb was smuggled on by a ground crew person at an earlier stop, not in France.

  60. 60.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Raven Onthill: Most likely not a surface to air missile. None of the terrorist movements, or armed/terrorist wings of political movements, in the region have the capability to hit anything at that altitude. And if it had been a missile the signature would have shown up on radar.

  61. 61.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: Amazing what happens when the character isn’t a throw away written for laughs. I know someone who does savat. Did aikido with him for a while. You do not want to be anywhere in range if he starts kicking.

  62. 62.

    Betty Cracker

    @Adam L Silverman: She was talking about Bill Weld, then the missing plane, then the fact that no terrorist groups were claiming responsibility, etc. Not really that much of a coincidence, I guess — it just struck me because as I was catching up on the threads, she was yammering about the same topics in the background.

  65. 65.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @redshirt:

    Well, when I hear about them, I do mourn them. You are right, we never hear about the many who die in traffic accidents or drug overdoses or even gunshot wounds for the most part, unless they are in our back yard. It’s the nature of news that the bigger, more spectacular, more mysterious or shocking events will get the most coverage. I don’t complain about it, it’s the way it is. But I try to remind myself that hundreds of people I’ve never heard of die every day. I’m not in the least religious, but in this I do see some value in regular liturgical prayers for the dead.

    Donne’s message of connectedness has always resonated.

  66. 66.

    raven

    @Linnaeus: Snapper is a bottom fish and I’ll have to see what happens Sunday on my boat trip. Redfish are surf and bay fishes.

  69. 69.

    trollhattan

    Somebody should tell the hummingbirds jousting over the porch feeder that in theory, eight could feed at once, not just one. Sheesh, so grouchy.

  74. 74.

    NotMax

    Firmly convinced (as if there was any lingering doubt) that Trump and circumspection have never been on the same continent, much less the same room.

  75. 75.

    Gin & Tonic

    @redshirt: 150,000 people died today, more or less. I didn’t know any of them. Can I grieve for any one of them without grieving for every one of them?

  77. 77.

    pseudonymous in nc

    If we’re speculating, then the Germanwings 9525 scenario — crew member takes down plane — has to show up at some point. That’s how planes mostly crash these days: they get taken down by bad actors.

  78. 78.

    redshirt

    @SiubhanDuinne: Agreed again. It just pisses me off when our media focuses on one event at the expense of dozens of other events. Simple example: Terrorism is literally a minuscule risk to most Americans, but because of the media, there is a substantial portion of the population terrified of it. Whereas car accidents or obesity related health problems or gun violence or name another subject kills way more people and it’s barely covered.

    It’s outright propaganda and even BJer’s fall for it.

  79. 79.

    Mike J

    @NotMax:

    Trump and circumspection have never been on the same continent, much less the same room.

    Isn’t that what they play at graduation?

  80. 80.

    eclare

    @redshirt: Or how many people die every day from suicide bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the entire Middle East. But one plane gets all of the attention. Kind of like the bombing in Beirut that killed over 40 and got NO msm attention before the Paris bombings. Not saying the plane should get none, but let’s acknowledge that other attacks also deserve coverage.

  81. 81.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: Its the French art of foot fighting. There is a similar (sort of Asian one) called Ban Do. If you read the comic books carefully, Batroc is listed as a practitioner of Savat. If I’m recalling correctly, the original writing of the Nighthawk character had him as a master of it, but since I don’t read a lot of Marvel (that wasn’t X-Men), I may have Nighthawk confused with another character.

    The protest movie Billy Jack’s titular character, Billy Jack, was a “foot fighter”. I’m pretty sure it was Savat.

  83. 83.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Betty Cracker:

    Why wouldn’t she? We’re where it’s at. The BJ hive mind processes a lot of helpful relevant information every day, and it’s where I’ve come for years to help me to learn new things and think things through. We all appreciate a good argument argued in good faith, and so does Rachel.

  85. 85.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @raven:

    I’ve looked at many of your photos of the Bhodi/Bohdi/Bodhi, but I don’t think I ever realized until this pic what incredibly long tall legs he has.

  87. 87.

    pseudonymous in nc

    @trollhattan:

    Somebody should tell the hummingbirds jousting over the porch feeder that in theory, eight could feed at once, not just one.

    In theory, hummingbirds could become less territorial about food sources that have been finite and ephemeral throughout their evolutionary history, but na ga happen any time soon.

    I have three feeders on different sides of the house, so that no single bird can monitor them all at once.

  89. 89.

    NotMax

    @raven

    Bet you’ve seen the flick.Not my usual type of choice, but the universal thumbs up enough for me to put into Netflix queue.

    Any comment/review of Kilo Two Bravo?

    Watched WW2 (based on a true story) flick Into the White earlier this week and can recommend that, with but a few quibbles about pacing and focus.

  90. 90.

    Adam L Silverman

    @redshirt: I can’t speak for the other FPers, but in my case I only have so much time to write posts. So while I’m usually tracking on a lot of what you’re referring to, I just don’t have the time to cover all of it. Or by the time I do, we’re so far past the event happening that it seems a bit pointless.

  91. 91.

    Major Major Major Major

    And who by fire, who by water,
    who in the sunshine, who in the night time,
    who by high ordeal, who by common trial,
    who in your merry merry month of may,
    who by very slow decay,
    and who shall I say is calling?
    And who in her lonely slip, who by barbiturate,
    who in these realms of love, who by something blunt,
    and who by avalanche, who by powder,
    who for his greed, who for his hunger,
    and who shall I say is calling?

    And who by brave assent, who by accident,
    who in solitude, who in this mirror,
    who by his lady’s command, who by his own hand,
    who in mortal chains, who in power,
    and who shall I say is calling?

    I find that Leonard Cohen has a lot of good things to say whenever I contemplate death.

  92. 92.

    dr. bloor

    @redshirt:

    Gosh, I wonder how many people died on America’s roads today? Heck, I wonder how many died worldwide in car accidents today? Should I be mourning them as well? Or is it only accidents the MSM chooses to focus on I need to sympathize with?

    If you could find out I’d appreciate it. Lost had quite a few recurring, background characters that never got lines. I’m interested in learning about them.

    You’re not exactly covering yourself in glory this evening.

  93. 93.

    Dork

    CantBe News Network told me today the wreckage found were lifevests and such. Are there really that many random lifevests floating around the Med to be this confusing, or was the discovery of vests just bullshit?

  94. 94.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    @Adam L Silverman: Eh, my feeling was that if they can’t find wreckage in the Med this soon, it CFIT’d into the desert. But then there’s a far greater than non-zero chance that someone along the coast would’ve seen it and reported it by now as well, so.

  98. 98.

    ? Martin

    @Dork:

    Are there really that many random lifevests floating around the Med to be this confusing, or was the discovery of vests just bullshit?

    Given the roughly million refugees that have gone to Europe from north africa and the eastern Med? Yeah, pretty sure there are that many.

  100. 100.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Dork: Draw a triangle between any three points. Then go and pull the Lloyd’s directory for losses in that area. There isn’t one Devil’s Triangle, because they are everywhere. All sorts of stuff goes missing and disappears all the time. It doesn’t even have to be over water. At one point there were several hundred jumbo jets missing in just Africa – as in the continent. Some where clearly stolen and being hidden, but a lot just crashed. Same thing happens with ships all the time.

  101. 101.

    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet

    @Dork: Amnesty.org:

    The Mediterranean has been a holiday destination for decades. In recent years, however, it has acquired new fame as the world’s deadliest sea crossing.

    In October 2013, off the Italian island of Lampedusa more than 500 people drowned attempting the journey to Europe from the North African coast. In 2014, around 3,500 people are known to have drowned attempting the same journey; and in one incident in April 2015 more than 800 people lost their lives.

    So far this year, the death toll has climbed at an even faster rate than over the same period in 2015.

    It’s not at all surprising that lifejackets are easy to find in the Mediterranean.

    :-(

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  104. 104.

    NotMax

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Still awaiting your reasoned, insideresque assessment of the report (and both its redactions and its conclusions) on the hospital bombing in Afghanistan.

  106. 106.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Dork: Given the frequency with which various ships carrying migrants sink in the region, I’m guessing you could find a bunch…

  107. 107.

    Linnaeus

    @raven:

    Ah, thanks for the correction – when you said “red” I thought you meant a snapper. I don’t do ocean fishing, so I’ve learned something new.

  108. 108.

    redshirt

    @NotMax: For example, the US bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Afghanistan was far more tragic then a plane crash. And yet, our media barely covered it, compared to this current plane crash.

  109. 109.

    Adam L Silverman

    @NotMax: I haven’t forgotten. I had two projects to complete, TDY last week, and a follow on from that that I have to finish by Monday close of business. Then I should be able to dive into several hundred pages of report.

  110. 110.

    pseudonymous in nc

    @Dork:

    Are there really that many random lifevests floating around the Med to be this confusing

    With the number of refugee boats in the Med of late, I can imagine that yes, there are random lifevests, though only from the refugee boats where they actually have lifevests.

  112. 112.

    NotMax

    @redshirt

    And this is somehow surprising because?

    Civilian transport crashes (plane, train, bus, ferry) always garner breathless saturation coverage.

  114. 114.

    debbie

    @redshirt:

    Could be the media you’re listening to. The BBC’s “The World” spent more than a few minutes on the bombing.

  115. 115.

    redshirt

    @NotMax: Domestic only. For some reason plane crashes get international coverage, while we in America care not for boats sinking, trains crashing, or terrible truck accidents in other countries.

  119. 119.

    chopper

    @redshirt:

    so do you have like a website or something with rules about what specific order in which we should attend to tragedies? I’d like to know going forward.

  121. 121.

    Matt McIrvin

    @lamh36:

    reasonable folks I think would see this and think ain’t NO WAY we want someone like Donald Trump to handle this…smh.

    But we need a majority.

  122. 122.

    MomSense

    I really should be sleeping right now but decided to wade into the comments section at boo’s place Voter fraud, conspiracy, and unfavorability numbers – oh my.

  123. 123.

    redshirt

    @chopper: Well, clearly any American who dies overseas is number 1. Americans dying in our own cities is like 34th or so. Americans dying in jail is like 64th. Plane crashes in general are probably 3rd or 4th.

  124. 124.

    raven

    @Linnaeus: Not at all. Redfish used to be trash fish until Paul invented Blackened Redfish. Florida just put a one fish a day limit on top of the 17-28 inch slot for keepers.

  126. 126.

    NotMax

    @redshirt

    Partially that’s a factor of how rare and unusual civilian plane crashes have become.

    Can recall seeing people turn away from the gate and refuse to board if the plane was a de Havilland Comet.

    The Comet was involved in 26 hull-loss accidents, including 13 fatal crashes which resulted in 426 fatalities.

    (One lesson learned from that ill-fated design is the reason commercial planes now have windows with rounded corners.)

  127. 127.

    NotMax

    @raven

    The fickleness of fish cuisine. Couldn’t give away Patagonian toothfish until it was arbitrarily renamed Chilean sea bass for market.

    Tilapia was a garbage fish, too, more often thrown back than bothering with ’em. Now it’s a ‘hot’ item.

  131. 131.

    MomSense

    @NotMax:

    My son gets to cook with some serious fish. Last week he texted me a picture of a 100 lb halibut that had been caught just two hours before being plopped on his table at work to prepare.

  137. 137.

    trollhattan

    @schrodinger’s cat:
    You don’t have a teenage girl, I speculate. :-) I do, and Paige is letter-perfect. What the actress does with pacing and facial expressions is beyond her years.

  139. 139.

    Chocko_Rocko

    Under the circumstances, it’s not too late for the American Family Association to take credit. #ThinkOfTheChildren

  140. 140.

    chopper

    @redshirt:

    serious, you got a list? I mean if we’re bitching people out for being sad about a plane crash we should have a goddamn list.

  142. 142.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @redshirt:

    Well, I can hardly blame the media for not reporting on every single death in the world. Death is part of life and therefore, mostly, not newsworthy. It doesn’t mean that we can’t pause to take note that thousands of our fellow humans — most or none of whom we know — have died.

    But I would also say that we should give a moment’s thought to rejoicing that there are thousands of new human beings joining us every day in this strange adventure, and welcome them.

  143. 143.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman: Read through some of them. I was sickened. The “Make America Great Again” superimposed on a concentration camp gate one was particularly odious.

  144. 144.

    The Dangerman

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    This should get wider attention; these are Trump’s supporters.

    And we know this how? You have heard of ratfucking, I assume.

    Not to say that there aren’t a disproportionate number of Trump supporters that are flaming assholes, but something of this nature needs to be taken with a little caution.

  145. 145.

    ? Martin

    @NotMax:

    plane was a de Havilland Comet.

    But good lord the engines on that plane looked like they were from the future.

  146. 146.

    Fair Economist

    @raven:

    Seagrove, between Panama City and Destin on 30a.

    Hunh, small world syndrome. A couple that lived a few houses down from us when I was growing up, good friends of my parents, retired there.

  147. 147.

    NotMax

    @MomSense

    Restaurants and supermarket here label all sorts of things “butterfish.”

    In the know locals properly call it diarrhea fish (particularly the ones in Japanese restaurants, which can be escolar, a fish that will keep you from straying very far from a rest room).

  148. 148.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @The Dangerman: Julia Ioffe publishes something unflattering to Trump and gets a similar treatment. Weisman does the same and it happens to him. I’ll go with Occam’s razor. If you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it.

  149. 149.

    seaboogie

    @redshirt:

    Or is it only accidents the MSM chooses to focus on I need to sympathize with?

    JFK Jr, wife and SIL died when his plane went down just a couple of days after my husband died of a heart attack, so I had a keen appreciation at that time, of personal mourning v. public mourning. However it is that experience of personal loss that makes me empathize with the families and friends of those who lose their lives in events that are widely publicized. Also, the wound of my loss was not opened anew due to news updates, so it was possible for me to mourn privately and not fear turning on the television or read the papers – and now – internet news.

  154. 154.

    Amaranthine RBG

    redshirt:

    Exactly right.

    “Oh my god, I saw on Facebook that X people just died. I haz a sad.”

    If you dare shrug your shoulders, it’s “What a horrible monster you are. Unlike you, I CARE.”

    Then 20 minutes later, “OMG Look what Kim Kardashian wore …”

    2,600 people died in America today.

  155. 155.

    The Dangerman

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    If you have evidence to the contrary…

    ….I’d be far wealthier.

    I don’t believe all the stuff about Bill Clinton raping women (RF’ing)…

    …and I don’t believe anonymous tweets that smell of rodentia copulation.

  162. 162.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @danielx:

    Were you here when Dear Leader Glenn Greenwald showed up in the comments? Those threads went on for days. General Stuck was around for those.

  165. 165.

    NotMax

    @danielx

    Fairly sure some threads have gone to 800+.

    Seem to recall one such case when it was something like 12 hours until a fresh thread went up.

  166. 166.

    Miss Bianca

    @redshirt: ouch. Is it really a matter for dispute whether or not it’s sad that 66 lives were lost at a pop? No matter what else has been going on in the world?

  167. 167.

    seaboogie

    @Amaranthine RBG: Some people are attached to drama, and the internets provide them with an endless stream of juice – and we are not exactly immune to that here in Juiceville. Taking the time out of your busy day to voice a “meh, whatevs” at a tragedy that affects many lives is pretty cold.

  173. 173.

    Miss Bianca

    @Adam L Silverman: ooohh…I think “harbinger of the zeitgeist” would be a nice rotating tag. Nicer, I think, than “fuck fuck fuck skull fuck a kitten fuck fuck.” But then, I’m pretentious that way.

    @trollhattan: they’re that way. Do you have rufuouses? Because they are tiny little territorial feather-brained dickheads. Just sayin’.

  183. 183.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Miss Bianca: I have many caches. In unusual places…

    I’m almost tempted to do a post on what Omnes provided the link too. My only concern is that the idiots that did that to Wiseman’s twitter feed would show up here in the comments. And I don’t know about you, I do not want to have to spend my time moderating that crap.

  184. 184.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Miss Bianca: I am actually a little upset with beloved commenter Valdivia for pointing this out to me. Not stuff I want to see. Nevertheless, It is stuff we all should know about.

  185. 185.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    published a piece on Melania Trump

    Pretty sure I have mentioned this previously, but …

    You can’t spell MEGALOMANIA without MELANIA.

  187. 187.

    seaboogie

    @seaboogie:@Amaranthine RBG:

    One more point about a plane crash: unless it was a bomb that caused it or some other reason for sudden depressurization, it takes a little while for a plane to hurtle from the sky to where it lands and the passengers are all conscious of their shared impending doom. I assume you’ve flown before. I used to fly quite a lot, and without a companion. Once had massive wind-shear on landing, and the stranger next to me probably still has my fingernail marks in his thigh. Another time the landing gear blew on take-off (in Vancouver which is an over-water takeoff), and the pilot was able to stop just before the end of the runway. It was clear what had happened as the gear blew, and I didn’t understand why the pilot sounded so shaken when he got on the intercom. Only hours later, did I get it.

    One last thing: the manifest with the passenger and crew count is called “Souls on board”. I always think of that when I see a plane flying overhead.

  190. 190.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Trump is a portal to a very dark place, and he’s amassing his orc army. That shits fucked up and bullshit. We’re all going to have to work together to prove to everyone we’re better than this, and get behind the liberal Democrat.

  191. 191.

    Miss Bianca

    @Adam L Silverman: It ain’t my job to do that, thankfully, and truly I’m a little trepidatious about wading into the cesspool, but I think I shall – on the same grounds that I read thru’ every single damn comment on your letter to that gun site, altho’ I winced and paced up and down and had furious air arguments while I did so. I hate it when the rocks are kicked over and I see the grubs writhing with obscene vigor underneath, but…I’d rather know, that this shit is out there, than not.

  194. 194.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman: Please give it some consideration. I have some more background on why I think it might be worth it to do so, but I cannot offer it here. E-mail me if you want that extra info.

  196. 196.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Miss Bianca: It’s a pretty consistent pattern. For a while there was an (ostensibly) Trumpster troll over on Lawyers, Guns and Money who started following up to every commenter with a Jewish-sounding name with antisemitic insults and telling them to “smell the Zyklon-B”. He could have been a false flag, but there are an awful lot of these people and they are amazingly tireless. And the guy has gotten all the endorsements from places like Stormfront and the various Klan organizations, so it’s not as if this association is a secret.

  197. 197.

    seaboogie

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I do not want to have to spend my time moderating that crap.

    No, you really don’t. It would be like whack-a-mole with the ban-hammer – on fast-forward.

  199. 199.

    Howard Beale IV

    Isn’t anyone the least bit curious why this happened over the Med as opposed to over the land?

  201. 201.

    Miss Bianca

    @Omnes Omnibus: Ugh. Well, I had a lovely dinner with some very nice neighbors and now after all that I feel like I’m going to puke.

    This fucking country.

  203. 203.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Yup.

    It so happens that a good friend is currently engaged in a European tour of the various death camps where his grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins perished (his parents, quite miraculously, escaped). Martin is posting daily on Facebook, and his descriptions are bone-chilling. I’m not in the mood to read the filth of some of these NYT commenters.

  208. 208.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: You’ve got my email address, push it to me. The one we corresponded on before. I’m going to go back through that twitter timeline right now.

  209. 209.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SiubhanDuinne: I read it because I was asked to do so. I was also asked to publicize it here because it matters. I seldom offer advice, but I think you should read, at least, some of it. Know what we are fighting.

  210. 210.

    Miss Bianca

    @Omnes Omnibus: I know, but seriously, I DON’T GET IT. You’d think people would die of shame before they’d write such things. But they’re proud of themselves. They feel *justified*. Just like those assholes who threatened the Nevada Democratic Chairwoman. It’s like…what? A game to them? This guy isn’t even real as far as they’re concerned, he’s just some capital-J Jew. Some sick fantasy figure.

    I mean, we throw elbows around here sometimes, and some borderline outrageous shit gets said, but *this*…*that*…I’m not even coherent.

  213. 213.

    seaboogie

    @SiubhanDuinne: It might be helpful to direct your friend to Krishna Das (of Kirtan chant fame) who has done a few visits to both Auschwitz and Wounded Knee in his “Bearing Witness” retreats. There is not a good link to sum it all up, but it is worth exploring to find the bits and pieces. I like KD because he is kind of a crusty Jewish guy from Long Island who is a depressive and he is pretty blunt, but also with a very compassionate heart.

  215. 215.

    chopper

    @Miss Bianca:

    as i said before, something about the internet convinces ignorant people that they’re well and truly anonymous. it’s crazy, they end up saying just the absolute worst fucking things and then holy shit, i didn’t realize people would be able to find out it’s me!

  216. 216.

    West of the Cascades

    Did anybody notice that the area where the plane left the radar screens is only about 300 miles east of BENGHAZI???

    A coincidence? I think not.

    How is it that the RWNJ publications haven’t picked up on this obvious connection yet?

  218. 218.

    The Dangerman

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-:

    Dave Neiwart can also give you a crash course on this.

    As I said in my original posting this evening, I’m quite certain Trump has a disproportionate number of assholes supporting him…

    …but my point remains. Some things need to be taken with caution as opposed to being declaratory.

  220. 220.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Miss Bianca: German Jews saw themselves as Germans who happened to be Jewish, just like others we Catholics and Lutherans. Look what happened. I am not saying that will happen here, but too many factors seem to align for me to not worry. OTOH, I think HRC is a far better infighter than the German SDP was.

  222. 222.

    NotMax

    Hey-o! “Don’t trust anybody over 30.” Wild in the Streets on TCM at 1:15 a.m. Eastern.

  223. 223.

    seaboogie

    @Miss Bianca:

    altho’ I winced and paced up and down and had furious air arguments while I did so.

    You are my sister from another mister!

  224. 224.

    smith

    @Miss Bianca:

    Just like those assholes who threatened the Nevada Democratic Chairwoman.

    When Gawker tracked down a number of those assholes (the geniuses had left the messages using their real phones with the numbers unmasked) and interviewed them as to what they were thinking, one said he was simply playing a character to make a point. I think people have become so used to interacting via the internet, and especially via videogames, they have developed a sense of reality that’s a couple steps removed from the real thing. Just as you don’t really die when you “die” playing a videogame, you don’t do any real violence when making threats at a distance. That’s not you doing that — it’s your avatar.

  228. 228.

    Miss Bianca

    @Omnes Omnibus: I am just sad. I remember a friend of mine whose relatives were Lubovitchers (her branch of the family wasn’t, but that’s another story) who were anti-Zionists. They thought it had been misguided to focus on the idea of the Promised Land being in one specific place – historical Israel – and their argument was that, if there was a Holy Land for the Jews at all, it was America. That America was really *the* place on Earth where Jews were free to be Jews. Because – in theory, at least – America was the place were any immigrant was free to become American, and still be who they were.

    That’s what makes me crazy about shit like this. Because *I want to believe in that America*. Because however fucked up we may be, however badly we fucked the native peoples here by coming here – which is a whole other topic – THAT America is the one worth fighting for. The America *these* assholes want? “America for me, and not for thee”? *That* America isn’t worth shit to me. *That* America is the one I would flee. But the *other* America…our better selves, our greater soul…

    THAT’S WHAT THE STAKES ARE in this election. And I get pissed at people who are cavalier about it – “burn shit down”. And then I get mad at myself for getting pissed at them – because, rightly or wrongly, I have way more in common with some of them than with assholes like the ones who represent in that feed. Fuck the fucking fuckers.

    Hmmm…I guess that’s what you were getting at, eh? OK – I’ve worked myself up into a state, now it’s time for Star Trek…

  230. 230.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Betty Cracker:

    I believe the Tunch thread exceeded 1K.

    I think you’re right. And I never ever want to go through that kind of grief and outrage and sadness again. Still get emo whenever I think of that day.

  231. 231.

    Adam L Silverman

    @efgoldman: I said during the first round that San Jose and Saint Louis would be the two teams to beat in the West. Now it looks like of those two, San Jose is the team to beat.

  233. 233.

    Anne Laurie

    @danielx:

    645 comments in earlier thread…is that a BJ record?

    Nah. Some of the Obama-vs-Hillary threads in 2008 broke 800, IIRC. One thread around this time in 2010 when I got crosswise with ABL came close to that number. Dear-to-the-commentariat “hot” topics inspire the wanton death of many pixels.

    I suspect, now that the FYWP is slightly less liable to break under heavy loads, we may well cross the thousand-comment threshold during the presidential conventions this year!

  234. 234.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Miss Bianca: Yes, I really do believe that this is the point of this election. Don’t worry about working yourself up. I was planning on going to bed early until my friend pointed this out to me and I became angry and sick to my stomach at the same time.

  238. 238.

    Anne Laurie

    @The Dangerman:

    Not to say that there aren’t a disproportionate number of Trump supporters that are flaming assholes, but something of this nature needs to be taken with a little caution.

    Always. But I read a small part of the twitter response to Julia Ioffe’s mostly anodyne profile of Melania Trump; there’s a lot of “good patriotic American” Trump supporters who are explicitly anti-Jew as well as the smaller group that belong to Stormfront. And a scarey number of them assume this is normal, that those of us who haven’t been brainwashed by ‘the media’ would cheer them on if we weren’t scared of retaliation.

  240. 240.

    dww44

    @pseudonymous in nc: That’s what I tried a few years ago, but it didn’t really work. My local bird store owner and his employees told me the way to make hummers share was to hang several together and the competition would abate. They had pictures other customers had given them showing all these humming birds sharing feeders hanging nicely in a row.

    For me, it seems to reduce the competition to own a feeder but doesn’t completely eliminate the inclination for individual hummers to lay claim to all of them.

  241. 241.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Anne Laurie: Sorry about stepping on your open thread, but once I decided to follow up on Omnes suggestion, I decided to put it up right away.

  243. 243.

    Anne Laurie

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    OTOH, I think HRC is a far better infighter than the German SDP was.

    Well, that’s the ‘value’ of institutional sexism; HRC knows from many years of personal experience that, push comes to shove, she’s not really One of The Right Class. Just as Barack Obama knew that, chips being down, his being a highly-educated member of the professional class, someone in the top 10% income-wise, meant less to a lot of voters than the color of his skin.

  244. 244.

    dww44

    @MomSense: Boo’s had some excellent posts of late, now that he has cast his vote for Bernie in his state’s primary and moved on to acceptance of Hillary, but his commenters have not. I cannot handle the comment threads there any more. Avoiding them for the duration.

  245. 245.

    Anne Laurie

    @smith:

    I think people have become so used to interacting via the internet, and especially via videogames, they have developed a sense of reality that’s a couple steps removed from the real thing. Just as you don’t really die when you “die” playing a videogame, you don’t do any real violence when making threats at a distance. That’s not you doing that — it’s your avatar.

    I read an article like that — maybe the same one? — at Rolling Stone. The men who got called back (and it was all members of the XY gender, for some reason) really don’t seem to have assimilated that sending death threats spiced with obscenities to public officials wasn’t just the same as talking smack to randos on their favorite MORG.

    It’s a truism that half of all people are below average, but sometimes it seems like social media is dragging the curve in the wrong direction!

  248. 248.

    chopper

    @Anne Laurie:

    hell, when tunch died the thread pretty quickly broke a thousand. damn, i miss that cat.

    ETA: of course betty got there first.

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