Shortly after Hillary Clinton delivered a blistering broadside to his candidacy prior to the California primary, Donald Trump promised to answer with a speech of his own today, in which he vowed to attack “the Clintons” for various shady deals and sundry perfidy. But the Orlando massacre has shifted the context, and now Trump will devote a large portion of the speech to national security issues so he can make maximum hay off the tragedy in Florida in addition to assuaging his butt-hurt over Clinton’s San Diego speech.
My guess is we’ll see low-energy Teleprompter Trump today rather than the extemporaneous Trash-Talking Trump who appears at rallies. This is a planned speech that has a lot riding on it given yesterday’s events. But either way, the speech will likely contain assertions that Clinton should go to jail and calls for President Obama to resign for failing to utter the magic words “radical Islamic terrorism,” a phrase Trump has lately taken to capitalizing in formal statements as a signal of its talismanic properties.
Trash-Talking Trump lives on Twitter full time. Before the bodies were even removed from the nightclub where the shooting occurred, Trump was praising his own prescience in calling for a general ban on Muslims entering the United States, despite reports that the killer was born here. So he’ll likely double-down on that message, nonsensical as it is.
The mystery is what the media will make of Trump’s delivery: Will they herald a cleaned-up version of Trump’s oafish Twitter wanking as statesmanlike? Because no matter how many drafts the speechwriters produce or how strenuously the spin-meisters remonstrate, the Trumprompter speech will almost certainly focus on self-congratulations since, at its core, Trump’s candidacy is predicated on a single thing: his alleged greatness.
The truth is, there’s really only one Trump, whether reading from a pane installed next to a dais or using his stubby little thumbs to crow about himself on a smaller screen. To hell with the media; the real question is, will the American people find an extended end-zone dance among the shattered glass and pools of blood in the Orlando nightclub unseemly? I suspect they will, but we’ll see.
bystander
Just saw this great comment on Crooks & Liars:
“Show me the grave of a GOP politician and I’ll show you a urinal.”
Chris
Given that the main topic, Scary Brown People, is precisely the “issue” Trump ran on, I think we’ll see a very energized Trump.
Face
Change “people” to “press” and the answer is a resounding, deafening “no”. Or “not possible”. Or “ratings dictate otherwise”.
Betty Cracker
@Face: Much as I loathe the Beltway press, I disagree — at least outside the Murdoch properties. I could totally be wrong, but it seems there’s been a shift in coverage ever since Trump went after the press hammers-and-tongs in response to their hounding him about his non-existent (until shamed into it) contributions to veterans’ groups. They still aren’t doing their jobs, but they do seem more willing to be critical instead of allowing wave after wave of bullshit to wash over them unremarked. I guess we’ll see about that too after today’s speech, in addition to public reaction.
nonynony
Not really. They’ll do what it takes to prop him up and make sure that they can continue to deliver their horserace narrative. You can’t charge the outrageous election year summer season prices to the car and beer industries without justifying that people are watching, and the easiest way to make sure people are watching is to have a close race.
The press is going to make sure that Donald Trump remains a credible candidate until November even if they have to metaphorically tie ropes to his arms and re-enact “Weekend At Bernies” with his campaign.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Betty Cracker: If Trump promises FEMA camps, I could be swayed. Obama didn’t give us FEMA camps, I haz disappoint.
/snark
peach flavored shampoo
I have a more pragmatic question — how does one ban a religion? Does every applicant undergo a lie detector test? How does one prove a negative (that they’re not Islamic)?
Why the hell doesn’t the media ask these very simple, fundamental questions?
FlipYrWhig
There was a feeling at one point that terrorist attacks of any sort would benefit Republicans and Trump in particular, given his “brand” of hateful ignorance and intolerance, but IMHO Hillary Clinton isn’t going to have any problem being regarded as a kicker of terrorist ass OR as a consoler-in-chief.
Chris
@Face:
Back in the days of the Benghazi murders, the public, at least, seemed sufficiently disgusted with Mittens when he couldn’t even keep the glee off his face long enough to be off-stage and out of sight of the cameras.
But yeah, I definitely don’t remember the press helping. Obama PWNing the guy with “please proceed, governor,” on the other hand…
aimai
@Betty Cracker: Betty I love your “theory of the two Trumps” because its spot on. I, too, wonder whether the press will admit that there is only one Trump, and he is a disaster. We’ll see how this speech is received and that will be a clue to how the rest of the campaign is going to go. If we see them applaud him because he stays on message, regardless of the message, its going to be a long, ugly, campaign. If we see them (and the Republican party) forced to condemn him then I think things will go a bit better.
schrodinger's cat
I want the logistical details of Trump’s plans. How is he going to deport the 11 million undocumented and ban Muslims? I also want to know what happens to the Muslim citizens of the United States. The press needs to take what comes out of his mouth seriously and hold his feet to fire.
Not keep giggling like its a big joke. I am looking at you Gwen Ifill and Amy Walters.
Chris
@peach flavored shampoo:
It kind of helps that most of these people aren’t outright saying something as blatant as “we need to ban Islam.” It’s intentionally much more vague and slippery than that, consisting of things like “WHY WON’T PEOPLE TAKE THE FIGHT TO RADICAL ISLAM” where “take the fight” can mean absolutely anything. They can always backpeddle with “well, of course I’m not saying ban an entire religion…” or not even that, just saying “is that what I said? Where did I say that? Where do you liberal media types get these slanders?”
Hill Dweller
According to Benen over at Maddow’s blog, Trump was on Fox and the Today Show this morning saying Obama is a terrorist sympathizer, and let the attack happen.
germy
ABC News is doing their part in making HRC look corrupt
http://mediamatters.org/research/2016/06/11/conservative-media-run-faulty-abc-report-allege-hillary-clinton-sold-seat-intelligence-advisory/210871
I saw the “exposé” on Friday night. According to their breathless reporting, HRC is no better than her opponent. They rushed through the story, but the magic words “Citizens United” appeared at the end.
rikyrah
He won’t take questions.
Question 1: The shooter was an American-born citizen. How would any of your proposals have stopped him?
simple question.
cleek
fuck Trump.
he doesn’t deserve the attention, even if he is the GOP’s nominee. every goddamned day, all fucking day long: TRUMP! TRUMP! TRUMP!
NPR, TPM, BJ, MJ, Colbert and Trevor Noah won’t shut up about him. nothing else matters but Donald Fucknuts Trump.
schrodinger's cat
I want the logistical details of Trump’s plans. How is he going to deport the 11 million undocumented and ban Muslims? I also want to know what happens to the Muslim citizens of the United States. The press needs to take what comes out of his mouth seriously and hold his feet to fire.
Not keep giggling like its a big joke. I am looking at you Gwen Ifill and Amy Walters.
ETA: Fix the edit function, either let people edit their comments or remove the option. Don’t send every edited comment to moderation purgatory.
germy
@Hill Dweller:
It’s like the reader comments section of my local newspaper sprouted arms and legs and ran for president, and won the GOP nom.
BillinGlendaleCA
@aimai: I have no hope that the Republican establishment(Granny Starver and the Turtle) will condemn Trump, though some Republicans out of power(the Romneys and Bushs) will. The press will rub their whiskers but won’t ask any questions, like the one peach flavored shampoo raised above or that the asshole who killed the people in Orlando was born here.
Keith G
Very true. And, I think that is true of anyone working is a high profile environment. There is too much going on and it is all happening too rapidly for any deception to have a long shelf life. And then, add in the ego (narcissist) factor. Trump really likes who he is and probably sees no justification in changing.
germy
@schrodinger’s cat:
You noticed that, too? I thought I was the only one.
rikyrah
@Hill Dweller:
Trump suggests President Obama may be terrorist sympathizer
06/13/16 08:46 AM—UPDATED 06/13/16 09:02 AM
By Steve Benen
Yesterday, Donald Trump responded to the mass shooting in Orlando in indefensible ways. This morning, as Politico reported, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee actually managed to make matters slightly worse.
There isn’t much in the way of ambiguity here. As Politico’s Blake Hounshell summarized, “This morning, Trump implied President Obama is a terrorist sympathizer.”
Update: On NBC’s “Today,” Trump added, ”Well there are a lot of people that think maybe [the president] doesn’t want to get it.”
schrodinger's cat
@germy: The Snooze Hour is unbearable these days, I also don’t like their economics correspondent Paul Solman.
p.a.
@Betty Cracker: Yes, credit where due, except it would be nice if the pukes didn’t show backbone only when they are the smear target.
Shawn in Showme
Which Americans? The ones who live in and near major cities or the ones who live in Real Murican enclaves outside of them?
Vhh
@Hill Dweller: actually, US gun laws let the attack happen.
p.a.
@BillinGlendaleCA:
You’re just not visiting the proper ‘news sources’.
rikyrah
After Orlando massacre, Trump faces leadership test – and flunks
06/13/16 08:00 AM—UPDATED 06/13/16 08:10 AM
By Steve Benen
In the wake of the brutal murders in Orlando, President Obama delivered a somber address from the White House, asking Americans to consider what kind of country we want. The massacre, he said, is “a further reminder of how easy it is for someone to get their hands on a weapon that lets them shoot people in a school, or in a house of worship, or a movie theater, or in a nightclub. And we have to decide if that’s the kind of country we want to be. And to actively do nothing is a decision as well.”
His remarks followed a related, measured statement from Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. “This is a time to stand together and resolve to do everything we can to defend our communities and country,” she said.
And then there was Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, who seemed quite eager to talk about Donald Trump. MSNBC’s Benjy Sarlin reported:
Here’s a good general rule: if you learn about the slaughter of 49 innocent civilians, and the first three words you’re eager to share with the public are, “Appreciate the congrats,” perhaps a career in public service isn’t for you.
BillinGlendaleCA
@p.a.: I live in a cave, I guess I need to get out more.
rikyrah
@peach flavored shampoo:
Yes, a very simple question.
Debsite
This is so sad. The Obama/Clinton “solution” will be more weapons, more bombs, more drones, more survelliance, more violence. We created ISIS, the Taliban, and Al Qaeda in the first place.
The shooting was yet more blowback from imperialism.
Roger Moore
I suspect that most Americans will find it unseemly. However, there’s about 27% of the population who will be very eager to hear everything he says. A lot of them don’t give a damn about the people who died, think they deserve it, and are mostly upset that it was a dirty Muslim who killed them rather than a proper, upstanding Christian. Those are the people Trump is trying to reach.
BillinGlendaleCA
@rikyrah: Or to put it as my dad used to say, “Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back, Donald”.
RK
What else do you need to know about the man.
Mustang Bobby
To quote myself on Twitter yesterday, “He was an American-born homophobe. You know; your base.”
BillinGlendaleCA
@Roger Moore:
Why would he need to reach out the 27%, they’re his base.
different-church-lady
@Roger Moore:
It’s scary how close we came to having a same-day twofer from which to compare and contrast.
Roger Moore
@BillinGlendaleCA:
This isn’t about reaching out, it’s about keeping the base in a frenzy so they’ll donate money and be sure to vote. It’s also about keeping them praising Trump so he can get his daily dose of adoration.
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: Yeah, the president who waxed OBL and coordinated an effort to stop and turn back the ISIS advance is the girly terrorist sympathizer, not the feckless coward who let OBL get away at Tora Bora and reported that he “didn’t think about OBL much” when his utter impotence was exposed in the Iraq debacle. I hope Fuckface von Clownstick continues with this line of attack.
rikyrah
Debate over guns, terror watch list to begin anew
06/13/16 09:23 AM—UPDATED 06/13/16 09:30 AM
By Steve Benen
NBC News reported this morning, “How does a man investigated by the FBI for possible links to terrorism buy an assault-style weapon in America? Easily.”
In the case of Omar Mateen, the apparent gunman in the worst mass shooting in American history, the Floridian legally bought an AR-15-style weapon and a semiautomatic pistol recently, despite the fact that the FBI was aware of him and looked into him twice.
Information is still coming together as part of the investigation. There’s more than one terrorist watch list and we don’t yet know if the Orlando shooter was on any of them.
But the detail that’s newly relevant is that even if the gunman was on all of them – even if he couldn’t legally purchase a plane ticket anywhere in the United States – it wouldn’t have made a difference when he tried to purchase the weapons he used to murder 49 people.
rikyrah
@different-church-lady: +
And, wasn’t that by luck? by a traffic stop?
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@rikyrah: If it turns out this guy was on any list, Hillary will pillory the Refucklicans with this.
MattF
@Betty Cracker: I agree, there’s been a shift– the horserace narrative is being challenged. For example, I saw that Mr. Horserace himself, Chris Cillizza, noted that Trump’s visible lack of empathy about Orlando is problematic. Of course, Cillizza cited this as a political problem rather than as a moral or psychological problem. And omitted noting that having no empathy disqualifies Trump from membership in the human race– but it’s a start.
StringOnAStick
My right wing southern Baptist older sister has stated several times that “all gays should be shot”, I suspect that right now she’s doing the tut-tut in public and secretly rubbing her hands together with righteous glee and feeling like they deserved it. I avoid her like the plague she is. There are too many people like her and we simply must defeat them at the electoral level to have any hope if making such attitudes unacceptable in public speech.
Lolis
Trump gives men with small peni$es a bad name.
Lamh36
RK
Spoken like a true Christian.
Chris
@StringOnAStick:
My wingnut uncle managed the amazing trick of retweeting something yesterday that said “speaking as a gay person, the two scariest words in the world are ‘Allahu Akbar!'” –
And then retweeting something else saying “LGBT [note, ‘LGBT’ – not ‘LGBT liberals,’ not ‘the major LGBT rights organizations,’ not even ‘most LGBT,’ no qualifiers, just ‘LGBT’] refuse to recognize the threat of Islamism and will just sob about generalized victimhood and blame Christians, Bush, Trump, global warming, anything but the real enemy.”
Yes, literally right after retweeting a post from an “LGBT” member saying exactly what he wanted them to say.
The way these people relate to those they view as Undesirable is truly a sight to behold.
Bill
My guess is that at some point soon he’s going to call for – or at least strongly imply he wants – not just a ban on Muslims entering the country, but a ban on Muslims living here at all.
MattF
@Bill: Or internment camps. Because saying ‘concentration camps’ raises certain issues.
Lamh36
oh please…dude was already throwing out seekers after Trumo whomped him
Lamh36
I really wish these news org would update the stories they post like this..
Debsite
Either Trump or Clinton would continue our Endless War in the Middle East and bring more attacks like these on us.
schrodinger's cat
@Bill: Then let him come out and say it. Let him own all his awfulness in broad daylight.
Gin & Tonic
Interestingly, there’s a story on CNBC today about increasing volumes of short-selling against some gun manufacturers.
To those not versed in the lingo, this is an investment tactic predicated on a belief that the value of a stock will decline. So, in other words, more investors are betting that the gun manufacturers will lose value. Smith & Wesson is over 11% shorts right now, Sturm and Ruger is almost 7%.
Obviously the short-sellers could be wrong, but at least some money is betting they’re right.
Gin & Tonic
@Debsite: So obviously we should all stay home in November, or vote for Jill Stein, so we can hand the election to Donald Trump.
Betty Cracker
@Lamh36: Yep. He’s not keen on having a real job. (Many senators are hardworking, but not Lil’ Marco.) If the FlaDems don’t do something monumentally stupid like putting Alan Grayson up against him, I think Repeat Rubio would lose. His performance against Trump (won one county in his home state) shows the high regard in which Floridians hold him. He didn’t exactly cover himself in glory during his presidential run.
rikyrah
@Lamh36:
YEAH, because the Senate was just missing him….
uh huh
Emms
@Debsite: Oh shut up. Enough with the bullshit. Hillary Clinton was part of the administration that took down Osama bin Laden and clobbered the Taliban into the past century. She also worked with administrations all over the Middle East to help corral all the radical hate groups. To compare her with Trump makes you either an idiot or a troll.
Lamh36
rp
@germy: Frankly, Media Matters’ defense is pretty weak. It sure sounds like she gave the seat to a big donor who wasn’t especially qualified.
The better counterargument is “who the f*ck cares?” Big donor rewarded with high profile job is a dog bites man story.
Russ
@rikyrah:
I’d be happy to see him using a bigger shovel.
rikyrah
@Lamh36:
There is NO REASON for civilians should have WEAPONS OF DEATH LIKE THIS.
NONE.
The Thin Black Duke
Although I’m a cynical bastard, I have a feeling that other than the Trump supporters who like their toxic bigotry straight up with no chaser, this is going to blow up in his face. Besides being tone-deaf and callous, objectifying these butchered victims as a political strategy is not going to go over well. Please proceed Mr. Trump.
NotMax
@Betty Cracker
Thought the Lt. Gov. was running for the senate seat. Even vapid Rubio wouldn’t want to upset the rotten apple cart and sow rancor among the state political establishment, whom he’ll be in sore need of as window dressing when he announces a run for governor down the line.
Debsite
@Gin & Tonic:
This isn’t about Trump. This is about the active participation of people obstensibly on the left participating in the destruction of brown bodies.
We need a non-violent solution to ISIS. ISIS exists in the first place because of imperialism and capitalism, not because of Islam.
hovercraft
In his speech today he will use idiots like John Podhoretz who in today’s NY Post claims that Obama is blaming America not the terrorist.
Trump will save us all per Breitbart. These are the sources he will listen to. The article is titled The Left Has Chosen Islam Over Gays. I expect Trumps speeches to be peppered with this type of dribble, because that is who he is.
When someone shows you who they are believe them – Maya Angelou
rikyrah
Cruz sees Orlando massacre as possible wedge issue
06/13/16 10:09 AM
By Steve Benen
When President Obama addressed the massacre in Orlando yesterday, he took time to recognize “all our friends – our fellow Americans – who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender.” Hillary Clinton’s statement did the same, noting, “The gunman attacked an LGBT nightclub during Pride Month. To the LGBT community: please know that you have millions of allies across our country. I am one of them.”
Congressional Republicans, by and large, chose to overlook this relevant detail. GOP officials, including staunch opponents of gay rights, were eager to condemn the mass shooting, but most were silent on the fact that the gunman targeted not just Americans in general, but LGBT Americans in specific.
In an interesting twist, though, Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) was a notable exception. The right-wing Texan is a fierce opponent of expanding civil rights to the LGBT community, but note how his statement yesterday referenced the Orlando gunman’s targets.
donnah
@germy:
That’s the funniest damn thing I’ve read all day.
geg6
Caught Trump phoning in to the CBS Morning Show to talk to Charlie Rose and Gayle King about this earlier this morning. He ranted like a nut, literally. Could not even stop talking about him and his Muslim ban and how Obama and Hillary won’t give the magic incantation and how Obama probably is complicit. Gayle and Charlie kept trying to re-direct him and he simply just went on and on. Finally, Charlie just cut him off and went to commercial. I don’t understand why both of them seemed so gobsmacked by the shit the Hair Fuhrer was spewing. Do they not pay attention to what they report? Maybe Charlie forgets because he drinks so much or something, but there is no excuse like that for Gayle King.
Debsite
@hovercraft:
Of course, we are partly to blame. San Bernardono, Orlando…the violence the USA has done overseas is blowing back.
different-church-lady
@Debsite: And you’re going to continue the endless trolling of Balloon Juice.
Bex
@rikyrah: Will Trump ever utter the words “radical Christian terrorist(s)” when discussing people who kill people at Planned Parenthood clinics or doctors in their churches? Yes, I am wasting everybody’s time asking this question.
Mike in NC
Drumpf should let his freak flag fly and announce that he will make the leaders of the NRA and KKK cabinet positions in his administration, in order to Make America White Again.
Gin & Tonic
@Debsite: So who should I vote for?
Chris
@hovercraft:
That was never a question. It was always crystal-clear that the ban was supposed to be permanent – Trump was never going to remove it, and once it’s in place any president who removes it runs the risk of being tagged with the “you let our defenses down!” accusation and fully owning the next attack by a jihadist (whether or not it’s something that would’ve been stopped by a ban).
different-church-lady
@The Thin Black Duke:
Ah, so in other words, no change.
nonynony
@Gin & Tonic: Short term I suspect that they’re wrong. There’s going to be another explosion of guns and ammo sales in the wake of this shooting (as there always is after a mass shooting) because the nutters who make up the majority of bulk sales freak out that NOW is the time when the gubbmint is finally going to start confiscating stuff/putting gun manufacturers out of business and so they better stockpile more.
Longer term I suspect they’re still wrong because another Democrat in the Oval Office is only going to continue to spur sales to the nuts as they continue to believe that any day now the hated government is going to take their precious, precious guns away from them. Every push for gun control is basically an ad campaign for gun manufacturers.
The only way I could see their stock price dropping is if the stock itself becomes something nobody wants to invest in. Perhaps if the big pension funds start divesting themselves of gun manufacturers – but since many of those funds are public employee funds it would take an act of the state leg to do it. And only handful of states might have the legislatures who could actually be pressured to do it. I don’t see that happening any time in the near future either – not without a massive pressure campaign by citizens to do it and the folks interested in this are far more interested in actually finding ways to get guns out of the hands of killers than they are in making gun company CEOs suffer from their stock options turning sour on them.
Davis X. Machina
@Debsite: I’m not sure changing the mode of production is going to solve this.
The Albigensian Crusades, Saint Bartholomew’s Day, the Sack of Magdeburg, Drogheda and Portadown all antedate the rise of finance capitalism.
gene108
@schrodinger’s cat:
What happens, if someone converts to Islam?
Maybe comes to the U.S. as a non-Muslim, gets impressed by the Muslim religion and converts. Does he/she get automatically deported?
Also, when is President Obama going to impose Sharia Law on all Americans? He’s had over seven years and hasn’t even tried. I hate it when politicians break campaign promises.
The Thin Black Duke
@geg6: Ironically, I believe this is a situation where Hillary’s reputation as a warmonger is going to work in her favor. When we finally hear Hillary and Donald discuss foreign policy at their first debate, who in hell is going to trust the idiotic loudmouth with a ferret on his head to keep America safe?
hovercraft
Since Clinton has now said the magic words ‘radical islamic terrorism’ does that now make her qualified? I don’t think she should of, but it made David Ignatius and the rest of the morning Joe crew happy. Are there no serious people on my TV?
gene108
@rikyrah:
Simple answer: Time Machines
Go back in time, ban Muslims from entering. His parents could never immigrate here. Problem solved.
Debsite
@Davis X. Machina:
I’m not advocating returning to Feudalism so I haven’t a clue what your point is.
Cermet
The average thug voter will agree with the tRump since, regardless of the terrible tragedy they basically don’t like gays and secretly, would like to say this without supporting the shooter (I am NOT saying they agree with the slaughter! I don’t believe that for the majority of thugs.) So this is a tRump win/win and the media will parrot their talking points as ‘neutral’ reporters.
Bill
@schrodinger’s cat: I expect he will.
Gin & Tonic
@hovercraft:
No.
LAO
Admittedly, I was once stupid enough to believe in peak wingnut — but I also believed that there a bottom to Trump’s discourse. That at some point, his awfulness (which would remain awful) but level out. I was wrong. He is a bottomless cesspool of unending crap. Now, he is accusing the President of complicity in the Orlando attack. I do not know how I am going to make it through the next 5 months. The level of rage I feel is very difficult to sustain.
dr. bloor
@rikyrah: Cruz thinks he’s being clever here by setting up a false dichotomy, which, in truth, is about as clever as Cruz is capable of being.
rp
@hovercraft: I’m kind of glad she said it. Anything to get rid of that idiotic talking point.
rikyrah
@geg6:
I’ll say it again….
WHAT THE PHUQ IN LETTING HIM CALL INTO THESE SHOWS?
He’s not in Zambia. He’s in the USA. Get him on SKYPE if that’s all that’s available.
PHUCK OUTTA HERE WITH THE CALLING INTO SHOWS.
Chris
@rikyrah:
I have no doubt that they’ll try to do some of this kind of outreach. The problem is, since homosexuals to them are subhuman at worst and an utterly baffling lifestyle at best, they have no idea how to actually relate to the community as a whole – and they’re severely restricted in what they can do, in any event, by the fact that they can’t afford to be too friendly with gays or it’ll piss off their constituents.
Basically, the very best that comes out of this is the kind of tone-deaf awkwardness we saw when Rand Paul showed up at Howard and explained to black people that they should all vote for him because, 150 years ago, Abe Lincoln was a Republican.
hovercraft
@Chris:
The funny thing is that on the day he announced the ban I don’t remember him saying temporary. It was a ban on all muslins. Then when the backlash happened he said of course it would not include Americans and it would be temporary. Once again the media fails to hold his feet to the fire.
Wapiti
The BBC states that there were over 350 mass shootings in the US last year. Imagine Trump making every one of them about him. I weep for humanity.
NotMax
@gene108
His deranged supporters likely picturing Trump wielding a golden shovel to turn over the first clod of earth for the exhumation and deportation of Muhammad Ali’s body.
Chris
@LAO:
… and what he’s saying is almost entirely stuff that the right wing base either already believes or will talk themselves into believing within a few days of it being said, so there’s effectively no check on him except in general elections.
muddy
@rikyrah: He didn’t like the lighting in their studios. Said it wasn’t flattering to him. Boohoo. Pitch blackness would not be flattering to him, if we could yet hear his voice.
Betty Cracker
@rp: Me too. And contrary to wingnut talking points, it’s not the first time she’s ever uttered the phrase, and President Obama has also used the words when appropriate. Unlike ISIS stooge Trump, they understand context matters and that making it an Islam vs. the West fight is actually counterproductive.
nonynony
@rikyrah:
Why would you want to see his face? Hearing him speak is bad enough without seeing his mug.
Patricia Kayden
@schrodinger’s cat: Agreed. He’s just uttering empty platitudes to comfort the bigots who make up his base. I’ve yet to hear about an actual policy/plan to implement any of his promises. I wish the media would ask him about the process for refugees to even reach American shores, i.e., a long 5-year process where potential refugees are carefully vetted. The U.S. is not taking in hordes of refugees in any way similar to what is happening in Germany or other countries in Europe.
Debsite
Obama was bragging about assassinating the leader of the Taliban the other day and Clonton still trumpets the assassination of bin Laden and the disregard of Pakistani sovereignty as a plank of her campaign.
Violence begets violence…we can’t expect peace here if we practice violence against brown bodies abroad.
arsenal
@Debsite: I hope you pulled a hammy stretched for that ground ball (which ended up in the outfield despite your best efforts), ’cause you need 15 days on the DL. Or rather, WE need a break from your David Brooks-lite “Both sides do it!” whinging.
Look, I’ll tell you what you want to hear: YOU ARE LEFTIER AND PURER THAN ME. That’s the only purpose that screeds about Clinton being a warmonger serve, so I’ll just concede it right now. YOU’RE LEFTIER AND PURER THAN ME. But you’re also wrong.
Now, your aggrandizement out of the way, we can look at the facts. TRUMP responds to this tragedy with self-aggrandizement (no wonder you’re carrying water for him!), a ban on Muslims, a promise to “bomb the oil”, and accusations that President Obama and every Muslim in the U.S. is on a terrorism conspiracy. CLINTON responds with sympathy for the victims and gun control measures.
They are only “the same” if you don’t know what the word “same” means. Or the word “the”.
But look, I know that’s not the point. The point isn’t to talk about what’s actually going on here. The point is for you to feel superior. So, once again: YOU ARE LEFTIER AND PURER THAN ME.
Now, go away. Adults are talking.
D58826
@Debsite:
Would you care to offer a set of policy proposals to achieve this laudable end?
Poopyman
@LAO:
And I’m rooting for an aneurysm.
nonynony
@Betty Cracker:
The thing is, the talking point will not die just because it’s a lie. President Obama has used every phrase they accuse him of never using but it doesn’t matter – the talking point continues to be repeated by the faithful and will continue to be repeated by the faithful until he’s dead and buried in the distant future.
Patricia Kayden
@rikyrah: Cruz has been known to associate with Pastors who advocate the murder of gays because Jesus so ….
He needs to take several seats.
Debsite
@arsenal:
The rhetoric may be slightly more palatable, but Clinton will continue to commit this country to the destruction of brown Muslim bodies.
Gin & Tonic
@Debsite:
Thanks for making it clear who and what you are.
Mike R
@Debsite:
Bingo you have summed up your position
tinare
This video of President Obama from earlier this month talking to a gun store owner needs to go viral. In the course of discussing the fact that he is not trying to disarm law-abiding citizens, he discusses how he just was involved in a briefing in the Situation Room where they discussed U.S. citizens on the terrorist watchlist that he can put on the no-fly list, but that because of the NRA, he cannot prevent them from legally purchasing a gun.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/obama-to-gun-owners-im-not-looking-to-disarm-you/
Debsite
@Gin & Tonic:
What? I’m typing on an iPhone .
Patricia Kayden
@Debsite: Any President should commit this country to the destruction of terrorists — Muslims, Brown, White, Christian, etc. How in the world can you use peaceful methods to fight ISIS?
The Thin Black Duke
@Chris: And this is what makes me cautiously optimistic about Hillary’s chances in November. As has been mentioned before, Mitt Romney received over 65% of the white vote and he still lost. Therefore, even if Donald is able to come close to matching that percentage (which is highly unlikely), pissing off everybody else in the country is just not a winning political strategy, and a lot of people are probably going to feel better voting against the Donald than voting for Hillary this year. Hey, I’ll take it.
Debsite
@D58826:
International cooperation with all parties in the region, including Russia which has a real interest in peace and has been unfairly demonized by the corporate media. Negotiate, talk, bring in the UN, set up non-violence coordinating committees in Syria, encourage non-violent civil disobedience in areas controlled by ISIS (ex. Sit ins and boycotts).
Patricia Kayden
@Debsite: So we should let Osama Bin Laden, an admitted terrorist who killed thousands in this country, float off into the clouds? He shouldn’t be destroyed? Really? I’m as liberal, Progressive and Leftist as anyone else, but I have zero problems with killing terrorists. ZERO.
nonynony
@arsenal: This is the new identity of our resident troll. They’re not arguing in good faith, they’re trying to get people to engage. Getting someone angry at you is at least provoking an emotion, and if you can’t get emotional support in real life, well, then the imaginary emotional response from strangers on the internet will have to be enough.
You could literally replace every one of their posts with “Notice me! Pay attention to me! I need to be noticed! NOTICE ME!” and it would have the same content. Honestly you could replace every one of their posts with “I hate myself and wish someone would give me a hug” and they’d be more honest as about 90% of the trolls on the Internet are horrible, self-loathing people who have pushed everyone in their real lives away from them but still feel the need for human contact.
gene108
@rp:
Is it really that high profile a job? Sounds a lot like a Blue Ribbon panel of experts, rather than an actual day-to-day group at the State Department.
Somehow I don’t think the people on this group had to quit their day jobs to join.
muddy
@Poopyman: Only the truly fragile feel the need to project absolute strength.
Debsite
@Patricia Kayden:
Have we not committed terrorism in this country also? Remember when Madeline Albright said he deaths of millions of Iraqi children via sanctions was “worth it”? Was that not terrorism too?
MattF
@LAO: Trump is just saying out loud what various RWNJs have merely implied. The dogwhistle is dead. The good news is that Trump isn’t going to pivot to anything even remotely resembling sanity or empathy. And that is good news.
LAO
@Chris: Point taken and acknowledged. And I should not be surprised that the media is giving the Republican nominee a pass on accusing a sitting President of treason.
Debsite
@Patricia Kayden:
The Taliban offered to put bin Laden on trial after 9/11 if we could provide evidence. Bin Laden should have been given the benefit of a trial.
“Kill them all” is typical USian jingoism.
Do you consider Bush and Cheney terrorists? Would an Iraqi special forces unit have the right to invade US sovereignty and assassinate them? Why or why not?
Immanentize
@nonynony: I think that the shorting is about the realization that the gun market is pretty much maxed out here in the U.S. Gun sales are not coming from new owners, rather they are from repeat buyers. There was an increase in overall ownership after 9-11 and the push to arm women had some effect, but the margin now is in multiple gun ownership and there just isn’t that much room to go from five guns to ten. And there isn’t any growing world market, it is pretty stable and saturated, it seems. So I think the short is not about ups or downs in the US, but rather industry structures.
Poopyman
@muddy: Yep. See Cheney, Richard Bruce.
rp
@gene108: Also a good point. It’s an advisory board that meets every few weeks (I’m guessing). Who cares?
glory b
@rp: A few other sites said the same thing.
Those seats on advisory boards aren’t really jobs, just pieces of puffery and resume padding. Ambassadorships are more serious and no one even thinks about the fact that many of them are prizes for who raises the most money. That’s why the story didn’t really get any traction.
The Thin Black Duke
@Debsite: And no matter how you try to package it, it’s still the same old “both sides are the same” bullshit, and I ain’t buying it, sorry. But thanks for playing, and because you shouldn’t go home empty-handed, here’s a lovely consolation prize: Bupkis. O.K., I lied.
Ella in New Mexico
Worked Friday through Sunday night which means I entered into the dark hole that is the hospital. My internet connection on my phone is slow-to-dead in most places, so I mostly got just Fox News or CNN snippet reports on patient’sTV’s all day and any details brought in by coworkers or families. Which means I had no idea of the details and full extent of what happened in Orlando until last night and today.
Reading back over the weekend BJ threads, you see a snapshot of “normal until tragedy” that mirrors the life of the folks in that nightclub and now their families. Garden chat, adorable pets, tomato pie, an occasional soccer open thread. Then 50 innocent people slaughtered by one fucked-up, wife-beating angry rent-a-cop bastard who decides to phone in afterwards that he’s an ISIS sympathizer so now we’re supposed to forget the part about him getting his hands on an automatic assault rifle and massive amounts of ammo and focus instead on him being a “Islamic extremist terrorist” and ban Syrian toddlers from entering the country.
Then I saw this quote a couple of days back:
I have two questions: is Donald there right now, in Orlando, visiting the hospitals and holding the hands of the victims and their loved ones?
And if he isn’t, why isn’t the DNC circulating his previous quote juxtaposed with what exactly he is doing, all day every day?
Oh Dear Lord let the Democrats win so we can at least ban assault rifles.
Gin & Tonic
@Debsite:
What color is the sky in your world?
Immanentize
@LAO: Hi LAO!
Well, take solace from Elvis Costello:
This is hell, this is hell
I am sorry to tell you
It never gets better or worse
But you get used to it after a spell
For heaven is hell in reverse
Matt McIrvin
@Immanentize: There were huge spikes in gun sales to those repeat buyers associated with Obama running for President, and then again with Obama running for reelection, and some more after some of the major mass-shooting incidents. The market seems to be entirely driven by political anxiety. I don’t think it’s maxed out yet–these people are willing to buy 20, 30, 40 guns.
Debsite
@Gin & Tonic:
Would you have said the same thing to Gandhi or Martin Luther King? They faced opponents as savage as ISIS.
scav
@Gin & Tonic: Black as her heart — as we’re all doooommmeeeed dooooomed dooomed as fatally corrupt beings and ever have been so.
MattF
@Matt McIrvin: NYT article with gun sale data. I guess it’s a kind of hoarding.
glory b
@Immanentize: The same thing happens to lottery sales and cable television sign ups.
Eventually, all of the people who want to play the lottery will be playing it. I used to work for the PA Dept of Revenue in Harrisburg. The number crunchers said not to expand programs paid for by the lottery sales like the legislature wanted(in PA it funds senior citizen programs) because the amount of money wouldn’t just keep expanding, eventually it levels off.
The gun saturation point might be reached.
rikyrah
@MattF:
He’s not capable of it.
Roger Moore
@LAO:
Sure, but Democrats are claiming it’s the Republicans’ fault for blocking gun control legislation, so both sides do it.
glory b
@Matt McIrvin: But do they have the money?
lamh36
SHIT!!
I read the story about the text last night before they found out the son has been killed.
Even with the sadness, at this point, I’d rather hear about the victims than listen to the media seeming focus only on shooter & Trump
Ruckus
@peach flavored shampoo:
Asking us gets you no answers. You have to ask the media. They won’t answer you in any logical way of course because that’s outside their talking points (not on the script). But the answer is actually quite simple. Asking hard questions does 2 things that cut into the money.
1. Candidates may not spend any money with that source if they think the source is against them. Drumpf doesn’t seem to spend any of his limited money anyway so that’s really not the answer.
2. The horse race. It is obvious to anyone older than 2 and not on drugs that drumpf is a hard right conservative with a big mouth and no control (or actual plans for anything) whatsoever. If they say that in any way then the game of ratings is over. And that’s money. And that’s your answer. It’s always money. MONEY.
Shell
Figured anyone with a grain of self-awareness would abandon a hit-piece speech like Trump had planned today. So color me surprised that it seems he has. But Im sure he’ll manage to sneak in a few digs among the fear mongering. And Im also sure well still get the Clinton greatest scandals speech eventually.
Chris
@Ella in New Mexico:
To be fair, who the fuck would want him there? Especially in this community?
Not exactly the same thing, but as a dual citizen with France as my other country, the phony sympathy of American wingnuts in January and November 2015 for people they despise and never miss an opportunity to trash on the other 363 days of the year was the very last thing I wanted.
(Not that I’m suggesting Trump backed off because he was afraid of causing offense – although I can imagine him or his advisers anticipating that the victims’ families would tell him to fuck off, and not wanting to get that kind of bad media).
nonynony
@Gin & Tonic: It’s a tell. The person posting is messing with you.
Because only an idiot would not understand the difference between a violent militia that has no ties to the rest of the world and no need to respond to public pressure and a government that ostensibly represents a democracy and has to face global public opinion in how it deals with protesters. Which is how Ghandi was able to apply pressure to India and King was able to apply pressure to the US and how eventually Mandela was able to apply pressure to South Africa.
Only an idiot would think that non-violent protests would work against ISIS. That or a troll who is pretending to be leftier than thou because they know they can get more responses that way than by being a foaming-at-the-mouth rightwinger. And a left-wing troll is less likely to get booted off the site as long as they can maintain their persona and keep the racist/sexist/homophobic rants out of their discourse…
JMG
Roger Cohen of the Times essentially said the attack was because we didn’t go to war to overthrow Assad AND ISIS in Syria in 2011. God, I’d love for somebody to give that man a brown suit, an M-16, and directions to basic training.
Immanentize
@Matt McIrvin: The reason I think we are getting to pe`ak gun is that guns are really expensive. One of my students in Texas who became a criminal defense attorney “hung out his own shingle” as we say and figured out the best way to get paid for his work was to take his client’s guns either as payment or as collateral. i went over to visit him one day and he showed me what he called his “client bank” which was the front closet in his house. he had a friggin’ armory in there — assault rifles, very expensive laser sights, Glocks, Rugers, even some antique Colts. And he was representing people, mostly in DUI or agg. assault cases, who were working folk. Couldn’t really afford an attorney when they got in trouble — or a new truck when they needed it. Yet they could spend a few thousand on guns…. But they really couldn’t do it often.
J R in WV
@rikyrah:
Yes, of course, the guy who sent in the team that killed Osama is obviously a terrorist underground leader.
Transparently fraudulent bullshit, worse than his University!!
lamh36
Another story that needs an update. This is the story I linked to last night. The mom believed that her son was dead, but hadn’t heard any official confirmation.
I wish ABC had updated it before repostingit.
Soylent Green
@Debsite: Your dogma ate your homework.
dmsilev
@Debsite:
I just want to admire the utter inanity of this. Tell me, would you have supported sit-ins and boycotts against the Nazis as well?
rikyrah
How Marco Rubio hopes to avoid a debate over guns
06/13/16 10:56 AM
By Steve Benen
After learning of the massacre in Orlando, Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) traveled to the area and met with many of his constituents. The far-right lawmaker, who’s reportedly ready to abandon his promise not to seek a second term, had a quick response yesterday afternoon to an obvious question.
I’m pretty sure this is exactly backwards. There can be plenty of people with dangerous ideologies, but if they lack the tools necessary to commit mass murder, the threat to society is far less severe.
This point is not lost on the terrorists themselves. The Washington Post reported yesterday, “Terrorist groups have taken note of the widespread availability of assault rifles and other guns in the U.S. In 2011, al-Qaeda encouraged its followers to take advantage of lax guns laws, purchase assault-style weapons and use them to shoot people.”
Speaking in English, an al Qaeda spokesperson said in that 2011 video, “America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms. You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?”
By Rubio’s reasoning, all of this is irrelevant, and U.S. policymakers should pay it no mind.
Keith G
@Debsite:
Yes and no. It’s a bit like saying that the attack on Ft Sumter caused the Civil War. Reading books such as The History of the Medieval World: From the Conversion of Constantine to the First Crusade by: Susan Wise Bauer, makes it clear that the underlying religious based conflict that helps power ISIS has been causing sectarian bloodshed for 1,400 years. Now that the US fucked up and poured jet fuel on the already existing camp fire, I do not see how a non-violent solution ends this in the short term. I am not saying that the US must be involved in it, I just do not think that peace has a chance.
SiubhanDuinne
@Debsite:
@Debsite:
@Debsite:
It’s so sweet that your mommy took you shopping this weekend for a brand new nym.
hovercraft
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Perhaps you are already in a camp and don’t know it.
trollhattan
@SiubhanDuinne:
Is this BiP or another internet tradition I’m forgetting?
Keith G
@lamh36: You are stronger than me. I can not watch this and even though this is the start of my “weekend”, the TV will be off. I do dip in to an occasional quick scan. but it is too raw.
I lost it early when my Twitter feed popped with a photo of a text message. I am wrecked.
This is the Tweet. It is sad, so be warned.
chopper
@Debsite:
shut up, Doug.
Gin & Tonic
@trollhattan: Far too few words to be BiP.
hovercraft
@MattF:
That is the biggest problem with the press, it’s always how things will ‘play’ politically not what the facts are. Emphasis on he said he said is not informing the problem, it treats us like people in need of entertainment. News is exactly that if I want entertainment I have a million other options, news should inform.
hovercraft
What the f**k the murderer walked out of the store with the AR-15, but had to wait 3 days for the Glock ? WTF Florida ?
J R in WV
@Debsite:
False on the face of it.
Civil disobedience only works when the opponent wants or needs to appear civilized, not when they throw the disobedient off roofs, or burn them alive.
You can go now, you’re done here.
RK
@Keith G:
The Saudis promulgating and exporting wahhabism has contributed to the bonfire as well.
Miss Bianca
@lamh36: “Break heart, I prithee, break.”
Somehow I have a feeling it’s gonna be all Shakespeare quotes for me for a while. I don’t seem to have good words of my own, and the Bard’s seem to be the best for every occasion. Particularly when it comes to bad craziness like we are going thru’ now.
Eric U.
@rikyrah: I was reading a gun-humping site about fully auto guns. You can’t go to a gun show and buy a full-auto, because that would be illegal for the seller. But obviously, since the killer in Orlando had a semi-auto, it doesn’t really matter. I don’t know if he had modified it to shoot more than one round per trigger pull, but that’s not really essential to kill a lot of people. The gun-humper’s point was you don’t want to have full auto, because that ruins your aim. rolleyes
trollhattan
@Gin & Tonic:
Good point, although I’ve long wondered what would happen if his control key broke–post length down 80%?
Captain C
@Debsite:
This sounds like another semi-regular here. Maybe you two work together?
Can we assume you’re volunteering to train and otherwise help out onsite?
trollhattan
@Eric U.:
IIRC one of the San Bernardino rifles had been modded to full-auto, although the practical benefits seem dubious. The girl who plugged the range employee in Arizona with the Uzi understands.
RK
@hovercraft:
Ultimately, the fault lies not in the press but in ourselves.
les
@Debsite:
This is absolutely the stupidest fucking thing I’ve seen on the intertubes. Maybe ever. Do you think this will work because ISIS will get tired cutting off heads? Do you enjoy snuff films? It’s obvious you have no actual ideas, but proposing (other) people step up to be killed is reprehensible. Do you agree with MeMeMegan that we should train our preschoolers to rush gunmen, in a Sandy Hook situation? Crap, more pie comments coming; the ratio is getting awfully high.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Debsite:
All we’re missing is drum circles, giant puppets and the singing of Kum-Ba-Yah for somebody to shout “Pure Progressive Bingo”.
I’m certain that guys who beheaded a museum curator will be suitably swayed by such committees.
LULZ
Mike E
@chopper: dougj contains multitudes!
JPL
@J R in WV: Trump would question whether or not Osama was dead. The President is just hiding him.
Elie
@Immanentize:
Excellent point… And this presents real challenges to the gun manufacturers to keep up new sales. Lowering costs won’t make a difference and marketing to youth has limited potential…
ruemara
@Debsite: You should really bugger off now.
Aimai
@StringOnAStick: you dont think this maybe sobered her up? Id be curious to hear what she actually has to say now she got her wish.
D58826
@hovercraft: Since the magic words have been spoken is there a sign that they are working? The sky change color? ISIS come out in favor of gay marriage? Dick Chaney endorses Hillary? Or the terrorists just turn into pillars of salt? There has to be something so that the rthugs can say ‘see it worked and if only you had done it sooner’.
LAO
@Immanentize: Hey back at you! Thanks for the Costello.
NotMax
@trollhattan
The real Debs (Eugene V.) is undoubtedly aghast at the usurpation of his name.
rikyrah
For Hamilton Fans, TONY Award Winner Leslie Odom, Jr., has been doing this series on Broadway.com, called Aaron Burr, Sir- backstage at Broadway.com. He’s up to episode 4. You never know who will show up in his episodes. This week, he was like, ‘ we’re at this eatery, and I’m going to see Josh.’
To myself…does he mean Josh Groban?
Yes, he does.
One week, Shonda Rhimes showed up.
I’ve been watching the clips on youtube.
Little Sonny's Bubbie
@nonynony:
Exactly. Nothing has changed since 2012 except the GOP candidate has gone from being not very good to downright awful, but the press sees him as a mighty source of clicks.
Chris
@D58826:
It should be remembered that before the magical words were “radical Islam,” the magical word was “terrorism.” Obama hadn’t used the word “terrorism” in response to the Benghazi attack, and that was a national scandal. Then, shockingly, it turned out that Obama had used the word “terrorism.” (Hardly for the first time). And the Marquis de Mittens had egg all over his face. So they stopped bringing that up. And then, pretty soon, the same attack came back, only with a different set of magic words. Now it’s “radical Islam.”
There isn’t actually a point to any of it. It’s bog-standard heads-you-lose, tails-I-win politicking.
rikyrah
The debate over ‘Islamic terrorism’ goes off the rails
06/13/16 12:46 PM
By Steve Benen
In a way, it’s incredibly difficult to satirize the far-right line on counter-terrorism because, in reality, the conservative rhetoric is already pretty laughable.
President Obama has launched strikes that have killed the head of al Qaeda, the head of the Taliban, the head of ISIS in Libya, a senior leader of al-Shabaab in Somalia, the al Qaeda operative in charge of suicide bombings and operations involving explosives, among many, many others. In The Atlantic, in which Jeffrey Goldberg, hardly a liberal, wrote, “Obama has become the greatest terrorist hunter in the history of the presidency.”
It’s against this backdrop, the joke goes, that Republicans say, “Sure, but Obama doesn’t call it ‘Islamic terrorism.’ Counter-terrorism successes are fine, but what really matters is word choice.”
Except, the joke has become real. Here was Donald Trump, the Republican Party’s presumptive presidential candidate, on Twitter yesterday:
Though others weren’t quite so clownish, Trump wasn’t alone. Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) whined, “As a matter of rigid ideology, far too many Democrats – from Barack Obama to Hillary Clinton – will refuse to utter the words ‘radical Islamic terrorism.’” Republican media personalities echoed the same line.
arsenal
@Debsite: YES, YES, YOU ARE QUITE LEFTY AND PURE. There is no need for evidence for your position. There is no need for you to refute the evidence that disproves your position (which is good, because stammering, “Well, well, well, their different policies, that’s just MORE PALATABLE RHETORIC!” doesn’t really do the job). YOU ARE THE LEFTIEST OF ALL, SO LEFTY THAT ONLY FICTION CAN CAPTURE YOUR PURITY.
arsenal
@arsenal: But wait! A CHALLENGER APPROACHES!
Because I’m pretty sure that what you’re saying is nothing more than “more palatable rhetoric”, and you, too, are just as committed as Donald Trump to war on Islam without end, forever and ever. I have just as many facts to support this as you did. I can mindlessly dismiss the counter-evidence just as easily as you can. Because now that people’s stated policy positions don’t matter, YOUR STATED POLICY POSITIONS DON’T MATTER. You are just as bad as Trump. And both of you should pipe down so the adults can handle this.
Origuy
@Debsite: Gandhi and MLK Jr. were facing the British Army and American police. As bad as things were, they weren’t beheading children and forced-marrying women as a matter of policy. Comparing them with ISIS tells me you haven’t a clue.
Aimai
@Debsite: not really. No.
Uncle Cosmo
@SiubhanDuinne: You mean “Boobies in Putinland” wasn’t good enough? Howwows!