Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

The words do not have to be perfect.

It’s not hopeless, and we’re not helpless.

If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.

How can republicans represent us when they don’t trust women?

Dead end MAGA boomers crying about Talyor Swift being a Dem is my kind of music. Turn it up.

If West Virginia and San Francisco had a love child.

with the Kraken taking a plea, the Cheese stands alone.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Republicans got rid of McCarthy. Democrats chose not to save him.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

It’s a good piece. click on over. but then come back!!

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Can we lighten up on the doomsday scenarios?

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Republicans don’t lie to be believed, they lie to be repeated.

I’m just a talker, trying to find a channel!

Be a traveling stable for those who can’t find room at the inn.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.

Accountability, motherfuckers.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2017 / Friday Morning Open Thread: How Low Can the GOP Go?

Friday Morning Open Thread: How Low Can the GOP Go?

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(Mike Luckovich via GoComics.com)
.

I know: How deep is down? Per Politico, they’re stuck either way:

GOP leaders desperately want Roy Moore off the ballot. But they have neither the legal nor the political leverage to force the defiant ex-judge out of the race…

But some absentee ballots have already been sent to voters, which appears to make it impossible to install someone in place of Moore on the Republican Party line…

Apart from the legal considerations, Moore owes no loyalty to Republican leaders in Washington, who backed another candidate in the primary and spent millions of super PAC dollars to defeat him while Moore won the nomination on an anti-McConnell platform.…

Though Republicans have begun looking into options to replace Moore, Alabama law requires the candidate roster on the ballot to be set 74 days before an election. If Moore does withdraw, however, any votes cast for him would not count.

Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-Alaska) and other Republicans have suggested that GOP Sen. Luther Strange, the appointed senator who lost to Moore in the special primary, could put himself forward as a write-in candidate. State law bars a candidate who lost in a primary from appearing on the general election ballot as an independent, but it does not appear to forbid a write-in campaign…

Earlier in the day, White House legislative affairs director Marc Short said on CNN that “there’s no path forward” for Moore if the allegations were true… Short raised the possibility of legal action to get a new candidate in the race if Moore drops out.

“Remember that the president supported Luther Strange in that primary,” Short said. “I think what’ll happen is that there’s options for write-in candidates and there’s also options for lawsuits I think will arise about [the] path forward. But I don’t think we should begin going down that pathway until we give Roy Moore the chance to defend himself and defend his character.”…

Mr. Pierce. at Esquire:

… I may be entirely too cynical but I think, if Moore has the sand for it, he will follow this up with an explanation of how he had sinned, as all fallen humans do, but that Jesus has forgiven him and washed him in the blood of the Lamb, and now it’s time for him to bring his redeemed hindquarters to godless Washington to show the heathen the path to glory that he’s been blessed to follow. That might work…

As a devout Cynic my own self, I wonder: When exactly did Moore turn into a rabid public Bible-humper? Just as some ex-drunks become raging teetotalers, convinced that no human could possibly enjoy the occasional alcoholic beverage without sinking into helpless addiction, there are more than a few “reformed” sexual criminals who re-focus their addicts’ energies on their particular version of Holy Writ. Mere speculation — barring further reports of his behavior during the last thirty years — but ‘Judge Roy’ would not be the first aging predator who seized upon the Bible as the best defense for him, and by his restrictive logic everyone else, against the temptations of the flesh.


.

He’ll have his GOP defenders, regardless:

The Washington Post, continuing their assault, “The GOP’s Roy Moore and Steve Bannon nightmare just came into focus”:

… [I]f Moore’s political career has shown us anything, it’s that he is more than happy to take a stand against anybody who tries to tell him what to do. This is a guy who has made not one but two principled stands that effectively forced his removal from the state Supreme Court. It wouldn’t be surprising to see him try to fight this, especially after President Trump withstood numerous sexual harassment and assault allegations on his road to the presidency. Put plainly: It’s hard to rule anything out in the Trump Era — even a Moore victory.

But if Moore doesn’t win and Democrat Doug Jones does, Republicans’ effective Senate majority will have declined from 52-48 to 51-49. That gives them almost no margin for error in passing legislation.

It would also make the GOP’s Senate majority significantly more vulnerable next year. Given that Vice President Pence breaks ties in the Senate, Democrats need to pick up three seats and hold all their seats (many of them in red states) to win back the chamber. But they only had two obvious pickup opportunities: In Arizona and in Nevada. If Democrats can win in Alabama, those two pickups might suffice. The math and their path to a majority will be significantly clearer…

Reader Interactions

328Comments

  1. 1.

    PsiFighter37

    I still think Moore wins. It’s fucking Alabama…they need to prove they’re better than this after the decades of fuckwittery they’ve put themselves through.

  3. 3.

    satby

    So, given the constant projection by right wingers, it seems we can expect news of a child porn-sex trafficking ring run by Republicans out of a pizza parlor soon?

  4. 4.

    Zach

    Religious right already sold their souls going from Trump, who’s guilty of perving on minors in addition to his history of amorality without apology when it comes to family values stuff. Moore’s accused of no more than Trump was accused of with equal credibility, and he’s actually got some bible-thumping credibility. He’ll have no problem at all UNLESS his accusers continue to confront him publicly and he does something really really stupid to compound his mistakes.

  7. 7.

    OzarkHillbilly

    I gleefully await the swearing in of a pedophile to the Senate. Thankyou GOP. Thankyou Ala-fucking-bama. After Obama we get this.

  9. 9.

    akryan

    I think this election, like just about every other one comes down to turnout. hispanics and blacks make up almost 40% of the population. they vote democrat with huge margins. If you can get them to the polls (granted the voter suppression they face is high) and get suburban white women to break, then the democrat has a chance. a chance. of course this whole thing might just motivate the rural republican base as well. it’s crazy.

  10. 10.

    raven

    @satby: It’s ANOTHER Veterans Day (observed) that I have to take annual leave. This may be the last if I actually retire next year.

  13. 13.

    hellslittlestangel

    Roy Moore follows Biblical law, not crappy, inferior US law. I expect the next bombshell revelation will be that he owns slaves.

  15. 15.

    satby

    @raven: I am enjoying my reduced schedule so much I’m retiring for reals next year. Looking forward to starting that Photoshop course I paid for but never had time to do.

  16. 16.

    raven

    @satby: My bride is bailing in May after 27 years at the health department. She’ll only be 60 so she’s probably going to do something else (they are already talking to her about being a consultant). I’m 68 today so I guess it’s getting to be time.

  17. 17.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Zach: I don’t get the “He didn’t do anything Trump didn’t do”thing.
    Officer of the court
    Minor under state law
    Deception
    Removed his pants
    Put her hand on his junk

    Trump groped adult women, walked in on naked girls, and fantasizes about his daughter. Scummy but not quite the same.

  18. 18.

    satby

    @Starfish: who knows? I used to read Marcy Wheeler and Jane Hamsher regularly when TBogg was at their place, but they jumped the shark years ago (around ’08, what happened then?) and I honestly forgot about them both.

  19. 19.

    Baud

    @Starfish: Weird. I don’t see any reason to focus on the dossier. The dossier can lead to evidence, but it is not evidence in itself. By why get so worked up about it?

  23. 23.

    p.a.

    Good morning!

    So per one of the posted tweets a Dem victory in Alabama could rest on the white female Republican vote. In Alabama. Sure hope there are other paths…

  28. 28.

    CarolDuhart

    Trumps accusers were at least adults who were in showbiz too, so some folks gave him a bit of a pass, believing that Hollywood is immoral anyway. But 14 year olds? 14 year olds are innocent kids. And how low does Moore go with this? 12 year olds? Barely pubescent? And you know there was more than four girls if he was hanging around the courthouse and coaching a girl’s team. Is keeping the seat so important that they risk constant revelations that he was hanging around middle school girls?

  33. 33.

    Tokyokie

    Alabama has had a Democratic governor this century. Granted, the Bush Justice Department railroaded him to prison, but that’s more recently than Texas, for instance.

  37. 37.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @satby: When she said she was planning on going to Boston in early November, I told her that it’d be cold. Did she listen to dear ol’ dad, NO. She is a SoCal girl so the cold hits hard.

    ETA: She did go out for lobster last night.

  38. 38.

    msdc

    @Zach:

    He’ll have no problem at all UNLESS his accusers continue to confront him publicly and he does something really really stupid to compound his mistakes.

    You can always count on Roy Moore doing something really stupid to compound his mistakes.

  39. 39.

    sm*t cl*de

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I gleefully await the swearing in of a pedophile to the Senate.

    Just when you thought the party could get no worse than Bush with No Child Left Behind, they embrace the new slogan of No Child’s Behind Left.

  44. 44.

    satby

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: how to dress like a Chicagoan for winter:

    Below 0F (-18C): You’re still fully dressed for winter. And it’s the full kit–long underwear top and bottom, hat/scarf/gloves, thick sweater, the warm socks, the warm boots, and the puffy parka pulled out from the back of the closet.
    0F to 10F (-18C to -12C): Why needs a parka today? This is regular winter coat weather.
    10F to 20F (-12C to -7C): That thick sweater has now been traded in for a thinner one, and that hat/scarf/gloves combo is starting to feel annoying today, too.
    20F to 32F (-7C to 0C): This is warm weather for a Chicago winter. That hat/scarf/gloves combo is away in your bag, not on your actual head/neck/hands. Your coat is zipped open at the top. You don’t care how windy it is or if it’s snowing, you’re staying zipped open, dammit. You’ve ditched the long johns. You leave your coat in the closet at work and walk outside to Chipotle (or to smoke) in your inside clothes. Local frat guys are starting to break out their flip flops and pledges can be seen in tee shirts on the CTA (albeit shivering.)
    32F to 50F (0C to 10C): The entire City of Chicago just switched to a spring jacket.
    50F to 60F (10C to 16C): Sweaters and jeans. Shorts and hoodies. Let the backyard barbecues begin.
    60F and up (16C and up): Summer.

  49. 49.

    Tenar Arha

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Yep. First frost night before last. Supposed to get down into the 20’s tonight. (If they haven’t figured it out yet, the trick to dealing with low temperatures & wind in Boston is long underwear ?)

    ETA oops, and a good length coat that covers your butt)

  54. 54.

    Betty Cracker

    @msdc: True. Before the pedophilia scandal broke, Moore’s strategy was to shut up and lay low, which is remarkably astute — probably a suggestion by the national party. I don’t see how he just pretends this pedo thing isn’t happening, though. He’s got to come out and address it, right? Who knows. Maybe there really are no rules anymore.

    I’ve got scads of relatives in AL and have spent a lot of time there. I’m thoroughly familiar with the wingnut Bible-humper mindset. But I gotta admit I’m rather shocked they’ll defend a goddamned pedophile. That’s what shook me when reading the coverage — not that they’re mumbling about “fake news,” but that they’re straight-up making excuses for a child molester.

  56. 56.

    NonyNony

    From Barro –

    but a republican needs to win huge with white women to win statewide in Alabama.

    Hoping for conservative white women to do the right thing in the face of maybe getting a Democrat elected is a fool’s game. Most of them are as big of pieces of garbage as their male counterparts.

    I guess if he needs to really win big with white women overall there could be some hope that moderately right-leaning white women in Alabama stay home in disgust. But I’m not going to count on it – they seem to have turned out to vote for Trump and were happy to do it.

    If there is an impact from this, it will be flipping some of the apathetic non-voters into being voters so they can vote against the God-bothering pervert. I’m hoping there are enough of them to matter, because Roy Moore in the Senate is just too awful to deal with on top of everything else.

  57. 57.

    Bruce K

    Since a Republican Party card seems to be good enough to counterbalance accusations of treason, it wouldn’t surprise me that it’d give someone a free pass against accusations of pederasty (provided they were politically useful; Hastert didn’t get brought to justice until he was no longer in power, after all).

    The only question in my mind is where the tipping point is going to be – will this be the straw that breaks the camel’s back, as it were? Honestly, I can’t say I’d be surprised either way at this point.

  58. 58.

    SFAW

    @satby:

    oh,hell! It’s 43° in Boston. That’s T-shirt weather.

    That’s the warmest it’ll be today. Supposed to drop into the 30s (or lower?) by this afternoon. Not a deep freeze, but not a balmy Fall day, either.

  59. 59.

    debit

    @Tenar Arha: It was 18F yesterday morning when Ellie didn’t come in for breakfast, so I went to look for her in my PJs and bare feet. I feel like I’m doing winter wrong.

  65. 65.

    TriassicSands

    @Betty Cracker:

    But, Betty, they don’t see themselves as defending a pedophile. In the fantasyland they now inhabit, there is no evidence that they would ever accept as credible. Photos? Photoshopped. Video? Doctored. Witnesses? Liars. It’s all a conspiracy by people and organizations the average Republican Alabaman hates or, at a minimum, doesn’t trust.

  66. 66.

    debit

    @NonyNony: I agree it’s awful to contemplate him as a senator, but then for the next six years everything he says and does is hung on the neck of the entire GOP. And that might also be enough to outrage lazy voters into actually showing up for midterms.

  72. 72.

    TriassicSands

    @raven:

    Oh, raven, you kids are always trolling for birthday presents.

    Oh, well. Happy Birthday, now that you’ve reached the half-way point in your life.
    (The immortality pill is just around the corner — 136 will be nothing special. Sadly, the extra decades of your life will be experienced as an old person and not as a 30-year-old. That’s always seemed to me like a flaw in the idea of extending people’s lives. Not the only flaw, but a big one.)

  74. 74.

    randy khan

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t see how he just pretends this pedo thing isn’t happening, though. He’s got to come out and address it, right? Who knows. Maybe there really are no rules anymore.

    He has addressed it – it’s all lies fomented by the Democrat Party, (Privately, I suspect he’s blaming McConnell, too.) The question (and I don’t have any idea what the answer will be) is whether that will be sufficient. So far it’s worked with the Alabama party leadership.

  75. 75.

    Chyron HR

    You guys are all going to feel pretty silly when Applejinx arrives and explains that Republican eagerness to vote for a child molester proves that there’s something wrong with Democrats.

  76. 76.

    Betty Cracker

    @TriassicSands: Denial that it happened is nuts considering how well-sourced the story is, but what I find far more disturbing is how many folks in AL accept the premise of the allegations and make excuses. Here are quotes by elected officials in AL:

    “Zachariah and Elizabeth for instance. Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist,” [Alabama State Auditor Jim] Ziegler said. “Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

    After a long pause, Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he’d vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl. “I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn’t want to vote for Doug,” he says. “I’m not saying I support what he did.”

    “It was 40 years ago,” Alabama Marion County GOP chair David Hall tells me. “I really don’t see the relevance of it. He was 32. She was supposedly 14. She’s not saying that anything happened other than they kissed.”

    Fucking psychos and degenerates, the entire lot of them.

  79. 79.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    I look at Strom Thurmond as the model of genteel Southern men: yammering on about race and sexual morality while banging the young women of color that were working for shit wages as household staff. Moore is in that same category.

    Of course, that useless piece of shit Jesus Christ(spit) already “done fergived” them for their rulebreaking, so it’s all good.

    Southern morality is based in hypocrisy, greed and cowardice.

  80. 80.

    Betty Cracker

    @randy khan: AFAIK, Moore hasn’t come out in front of the cameras and made a statement denying the allegations or answered media questions about it.

  81. 81.

    MattF

    @Betty Cracker: But… but… Mary and Joseph! It’s biblical! And, y’know, it is.

    ETA: I’m pleased to note that googling ‘Mary and Joseph’ brings up a page of news about Roy Moore.

  83. 83.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @randy khan:

    If you want to know who would refuse to prosecute Klan members and leaders for Klan violence, and who would vote to acquit Klan members and Klan leaders for Klan violence, look at those statements by Alabama GOP leaders.

  86. 86.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @MattF:

    Joseph is the world’s most pathetic cuckold. Scared teen girl avoided her honor killing by coming up with a ridiculous lie, and the dumbass bought it.

  90. 90.

    Baud

    Politico reports on the latest developments of the Leopards Eating People’s Faces Party

    After spending nine months indulging President Donald Trump’s desire to renegotiate NAFTA, agricultural groups representing farmers in Trump-supporting states across the heartland are now moving aggressively to save an agreement they consider crucial to their industry.

    The once-powerful agricultural lobby was somewhat muted in its warnings about losing a significant portion of the $17.9 billion worth of agricultural products exported last year to Mexico, the U.S.’ third-largest trading partner, believing that the Trump administration would reach a settlement on other aspects of NAFTA while leaving agricultural trade alone.

  91. 91.

    TriassicSands

    @Betty Cracker: @Betty Cracker:

    Making excuses is just another form of denial. The wife whose husband beats excuses him because… (fill in the blank; the possibilities are virtually endless) is in denial. Denying the act took place is just the most rudimentary form of denial.

    As easy as it might be to make a joke about Alabamans, I won’t, because they are a part of the very real threat to the future viability of this country. I fear that if you populated all 50 states with average Republican Alambamans, this would be a below average third world country. Well below average.

  92. 92.

    Adria McDowell

    @raven: Happy Birthday!!

    Happy Veteran’s Day to my fellow veterans. May none of us end our lives by our own hands in the year to come.

    And fuck Roy Moore and his supporters.

  94. 94.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Baud:

    I have to say – up to now, Roy’s political career has basically involved “lone wolf-lone microphone” kinds of offices. He’s never had to square off against a nimble rhetoretician. It would be funny to see him rise up in the senate, spew mouthfuls of stupid shit to stunned silence, followed by guffaws and an evisceration by Gillibrand, Franken, et al.

    Nobody has gotten a chance to do that kind of pushback on his personal brand of ignorance.

  95. 95.

    Cermet

    @TriassicSands: Further, as these hypocritical bible thumper’s say, this is exactly what was done to Marry, the jesus mother person. If it is good enough for god’s mother, why not any 14 year old girl? This is our country’s real religious right – power = money no matter the cost; money is their only god.

  101. 101.

    Lurking Canadian

    @Gin & Tonic: It is -11C here today. I think on the Farenheit scale that’s…12?

    That’s just ridiculous. -11C is a cold day in February. It has no business in November. Stupid Arctic Vortex is drunk again.

  102. 102.

    debbie

    If the allegations against Moore are proven to be more than allegations, they need to be used as a club to mercilessly beat Moore and the Evangelicals who support him back to the Dark Age, which is where they’ve always belonged.

  106. 106.

    TriassicSands

    I’ve been fortunate — not entirely by accident — to have spent the last 40 years living in states with mostly Democratic governors and legislators. I’ve spent the last 22 in Washington State and I was overjoyed this week when the Democrats once again took control of the state senate, giving Democrats control of both legislative houses and the governor’s office. Given that experience, I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for passionate Democrats/liberals/progressives (whatever label you choose) to live in a state dominated by people like Roy Moore or in Betty C’s case, Rick Scott. My worst nightmare (among many) would be living in Texas, where I know there are millions of like-minded lefties, but they are drowned out completely by vile right wingers.

    I feel for all the people in such situations. But it’s important for them to live where they do, because time and demographic changes could conceivably flip some of those states. It can’t happen soon enough.

    Although I chose the states I’ve lived in, their political makeup was not the primary reason for my choosing them. Of course, forty years ago it didn’t seem as important. The GOP had only just begun its descent into being completely evil.

  110. 110.

    bemused senior

    When I heard the Moore story, I knew it would not bother older Republicans in Alabama. In small town Texas where I grew up, I saw a 14 year old classmate get married to an older teen (pregnancy), and many whispered about cases of “slutty girls” who were young teens having relationships with adult men. I am 69 as of today. So I fear many people won’t see what Moore did as reprehensible.

  113. 113.

    bjacques

    Rudy Ray Moore is a better role model than Judge Roy Moore (The Law South Of The Age Of Consent).

  114. 114.

    Betty Cracker

    @Baud: I’ve thrown Jones a few quatloos too and will likely do so again. I’m not sure what the party’s strategy should be in this appalling situation. On the one hand, it seems like an all-out effort to support Jones makes sense because even if he doesn’t win, a high-profile campaign would hang Moore around the GOP’s neck like a flaming tire. On the other hand, Ala-gott-damn-bama. Attention from out-of-state Democrats could make it more likely that the mouth-breathers would turn out to support Moore.

  119. 119.

    JMG

    @Betty Cracker: I think the current national Democratic strategy for Jones is to send money and technical assistance but otherwise to keep out. Biden made an appearance for him. He’s about the least controversial national Dem. I wouldn’t expect any others. What national Democrats probably will do is toast the toes of GOP Senators in DC on the case. And even then, the press corps will do that job for them.

  120. 120.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker: Agree. I don’t think there’s any clear approach. I get annoyed when people say the DNC needs to make a splash about supporting Jones. The DNC doesn’t need to put on a show for us. I figure Jones will communicate what he thinks will work best.

  121. 121.

    jonas

    I agree electing a Dem senator in Alabama is going to be an uphill battle, but a couple of reasons not to completely despair. The race was already pretty close. Some polls had Jones pretty much neck-and-neck with Moore and these allegations aren’t going to help. If Dems, esp. African Americans, are energized to turn out like they were in VA and enough R voters just sort of throw their hands up in disgust and stay home, we have a shot.

  124. 124.

    TriassicSands

    @Baud:

    And, as you undoubtedly know, Democrats don’t even bother to challenge for many offices in the deeply red states.

    @Betty Cracker:

    Attention from out-of-state Democrats could make it more likely that the mouth-breathers would turn out to support Moore.

    That is a good point. In states like Alabama, I’d guess the more the Democrats can make their campaign appear to be an in-state affair the better. There’s probably some general truth to that idea, too. Nobody wants people from out of state to come in and influence their elections. Although apparently the red staters today don’t mind another country doing it.

  126. 126.

    Barry

    @CarolDuhart: “Trumps accusers were at least adults who were in showbiz too, so some folks gave him a bit of a pass, believing that Hollywood is immoral anyway. But 14 year olds? 14 year olds are innocent kids. And how low does Moore go with this? 12 year olds? Barely pubescent? And you know there was more than four girls if he was hanging around the courthouse and coaching a girl’s team. Is keeping the seat so important that they risk constant revelations that he was hanging around middle school girls?”

    They are OK with this, and will support him no matter how many accusers come forward. Sexual crimes and predation are core right-wing beliefs.

    The only way that I could see this causing a problem would be if one of the (future) accusers was the wife of a currently powerful man in Alabama. And even then, the message would be ‘hands off my woman’.

  129. 129.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    The percentage of Alabamans who cheered the jailing of Wiener, mocked Weinstein, wailed about Clinton/Lewinsky and yammered on endlessly about “Hollyweird” and are now defending Moore is depressingly high.

  131. 131.

    WereBear

    Roy Moore is every dandruff-flecked, breathing-hard, creepy guy who looked me over lecherously in my Deep South teenhood. Because they could. When women aren’t seen as people, who cares if they are children or adults?

  136. 136.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Hypocrisy is a character trait which Republicans cherish.

    There is zero evidence that any of the women coming forward about Moore are Democrats or otherwise anti-Republican. In fact the main accuser states that she voted for Trump. There is no upside to her for coming out and I’m sure she’ll now be subjected to death threats and harassment.

  139. 139.

    satby

    Amazon just reminded me that in 2011 this was the date of the first snow. I took a picture, so it must have followed an unseasonably warm spell.

  140. 140.

    germy

    @WereBear: I found it deeply disturbing seeing him wave that gun around during his speech a few weeks ago.

    Makes me wonder if he’ll take the Budd Dwyer route if reality closes in too tightly.

  142. 142.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Bobby Thomson: I

    don’t get the “He didn’t do anything Trump didn’t do”thing.
    Officer of the court
    Minor under state law
    Deception
    Removed his pants
    Put her hand on his junk

    As other’s pointed out the Bible botherors will just claim it’s inferrior secular law. You ask me that argument should be mocked and it hammered “Render on to Caeser” it don’t work that way.

  143. 143.

    Citizen Scientist

    I’m not hopeful that this news will sway a lot of Alabama Repubs, but I dropped some more cash into Doug Jones’ ActBlue account today.

  145. 145.

    Yarrow

    Roy Moore and Doug Jones were tied in the polls with BEFORE this latest story broke. That alone is amazing for Alabama. I expect that while some people will decide this is a witch hunt and break for Moore, a lot of others will not. He was already not good enough to be well ahead of Jones, which any half-reasonable Republican candidate would be in Alabama.

    This story about Moore is breaking into a different cultural environment. The Weinstein story broke the dam and now it’s becoming clear how widespread sexual assault and misconduct is in a huge variety of fields. The list of men who are assault women is long. The girls in the Moore story are now women and, as I remarked yesterday, they have gone from being flattered by the attention when they were young and having mothers tell them they were lucky to be “dating” Moore, to now, as adult women, realizing it was wrong and feeling they need to speak out. That is a HUGE change. If they can change, so can other women in Alabama.

    The environment that supported assault is shifting and things are happening fairly quickly. I don’t think we can know what this story will do to Moore. A year ago I would have said it would do nothing to his race in Alabama. Now, I am much less sure of that. I think a lot of women will not be able to vote for him.

  147. 147.

    HeleninEire

    @Baud: LOL. I read those first words as “I have a sliver of dope.” And my first thought was “What could possibly be better than Baud? Yeah, stoned Baud.”

  148. 148.

    stinger

    Happy Birthday to raven and bemused senior! Happy Veterans’ Day (observed) to vets and our families! Happy Friday to everyone!

    I have been so despairing for the past year. This week has been heartening. Doug Jones has been doing really well in the polls — $$$ and GOTV could do it!

  149. 149.

    Barbara

    How low can they go? Let’s just say that it’s lower than you or I could imagine. They are now using the Christmas Nativity narrative to excuse diddling a 14 year old girl by an adult man who was a public official at the time. It certainly gives added meaning to all those places in the South that sue for the right to place a Christmas Creche on public property. “If diddling was okay for Mary it’s okay for any other underage virgin!”

  152. 152.

    Elizabelle

    @Yarrow: I hope you are right. I get tired of all the doomsayers here.

    @ raven: Happy Birthday! Hope it’s a good one.

    @ bemused senior: And you — Happy birthday too.

    To all other jackals: Happy Friday. Stay warm, if you are in the target of the polar air. Central Virginia expecting its first hard freeze tonight.

  153. 153.

    Jeffro

    Looking forward to sending my RWNJ relatives these latest GOP defenses of Moore…after I’ve changed “Republican” to “Democrat” and “Moore” to “Jones”, just to see if the dissonance cracks them out of their Fox-trances for even a millisecond…

    On another note, it’s never a bad time to say ‘fuck you, David Brooks’. Even when he starts out right, his both-sides bullshit in the service of making Republicans look less horrible always shines through:

    The Existing Democratic Majority

    We could be seeing the creation of a new Democratic heartland, exurbia, and this alignment could hang around for a while. The stain Trump leaves on the G.O.P. will take some time to wash away. But this is bigger than Trump; it’s an alignment caused by the fundamental reality of the populist movement.

    But does this mean Democratic dominance is baked in the cake? Here I would say, not so fast. It’s worth remembering that the Democrats don’t quite deserve this victory.

    ‘fuck you, David Brooks’

    It didn’t come about because of some masterly Democratic strategy. The Democrats won because the Republicans decided to shrink their coalition.

    And it’s worth looking around the world and noting that center-left parties are in decline across Europe and beyond. These parties have lost touch with working class voters and are finding they can’t simply replace them with a mixture of identity politics and faculty lounge populism. What we’re seeing around the world is not the rise of left-wing dominance but the decline of major parties and the fragmentation of political parties across the board.

    The crucial question going forward is what will the Democrats do? Will they make places like Loudon County their heartland, or will they amputate themselves the way the Republicans did, and retreat back to the cities?

    Fuck. You., David Brooks

    Here’s how you can tell which way the Democrats are going. If they talk mostly about oligarchy and rich financiers, they are retreating to their base. But if they talk about mobility — geographic mobility, economic and social mobility, intellectual and spiritual mobility, they are talking the language of the suburbs. And if they have practical plans to enhance universal mobility, the age of Democratic dominance will be at hand.

    FUUUCK YOU, Brooksie. We SHOULD be talking about oligarchy and rich financiers…AND about mobility…AND about ‘suburban’ concerns like good schools and affordable college. We’re Democrats – we can walk and chew gum and still pray that you slip and fall right onto a rusty, running chainsaw.

    Jesus what a douche…

  154. 154.

    Immanentize

    @raven:
    Here’s to another successful trip around our friend, the sun! Happy birthday and here’hoping that when your next one rolls around, there will be a Democratic Congress!

  155. 155.

    Capri

    Roy Moore winning in Alabama is worse for the GOP as a whole than if he lost. The entire thing is creepy AF and it further brands the party as one full of abusers and crooks who will justify anything in the name of clinging onto power.

  156. 156.

    debit

    @Capri: Truly. “Republican, eh? Are you the Russian loving traitor kind of Republican, or the pedophile loving kind of Republican?”

  157. 157.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Yarrow:

    Roy Moore and Doug Jones were tied in the polls with BEFORE this latest story broke.

    Well, not really. There was one Fox News poll in mid-October that showed them tied that Doug Jones’ campaign touted to the heavens. No other poll has been anywhere near that, and there really haven’t been any recent polls at all, so it’s hard to gauge what effect this business is having.

  159. 159.

    Immanentize

    If I had the time and the access — and lived in Alabama — I would surely be scouring every Roy Moore prosecution that involved rape or sexual assault or child molestation (or best of all, all three) for his closing arguments in those cases. He may have even written an opinion or two on the subject?

  160. 160.

    Yarrow

    @Jeffro: From the article:

    It’s worth remembering that the Democrats don’t quite deserve this victory.

    WTF?????

    As for the oligarchy and rich financiers stuff, he is wrong again. Mueller’s probe is going to find a lot bad activity by those guys. There’s a reason Bob Mercer suddenly sold his company to his daughter and it just because he wanted to retire. Our American oligarchs and their partnering with their Russian counterparts isn’t going to go over well with those doing the investigating.

  165. 165.

    germy

    @Matt McIrvin:

    There was one Fox News poll in mid-October that showed them tied that Doug Jones’ campaign touted to the heavens.

    Is it possible Fox’s goal with these outliers is to motivate the base?

  166. 166.

    Barry

    @Betty Cracker: “That’s what shook me when reading the coverage — not that they’re mumbling about “fake news,” but that they’re straight-up making excuses for a child molester.”

    Jonah Goldberg, of all people, pointed out that the Alabama Right’s first response was not to deny, but to accept and support anyway.

  167. 167.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Jeffro: “Exurbia as Democratic heartland” is ridiculous anyway. Compare the vote margins in Loudoun to Arlington, Richmond and Norfolk. End of argument.

  169. 169.

    jonas

    @Yarrow:

    The girls in the Moore story are now women and, as I remarked yesterday, they have gone from being flattered by the attention when they were young and having mothers tell them they were lucky to be “dating” Moore, to now, as adult women, realizing it was wrong

    Aside from the skeezy molesting, this part of the story simply left me gobsmacked: in 1970’s Alabama, a 30something old guy could come and hit on your teenaged (or younger!) daughter and take her out on dates and the parents were *totally okay* with that? I have a fourteen year-old daughter and if some dude just ten years younger than her own dad showed up on our doorstep to say he thought she was cute and wanted to take her out for a “drive” somewhere, I don’t need to tell you what I’d do. Hopefully the cops would show up before my wife got to him.

    Sheez, and these people wonder why the rest of the country sometimes “looks down on them.”

  170. 170.

    Felonius Monk

    @raven:

    I’m 68 today so I guess it’s getting to be time.

    You are still just a young pup. Happy Birthday, raven.

  172. 172.

    bjacques

    I’d say the GOP have cornered the market on spiritual mobility. Mel’s Hole is too shallow for the depths of depravity they’ll plumb.

    Many of Judge Short Eyes’ apologists love to remind us how outraged they are that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) had a 9-year-old wife. It’s nice to know they have standards.

  173. 173.

    LurkerNoLonger

    I’m going to add a little positivity to this thread. Moore is going to lose. There are certain things, like child molestation, that people find abhorrent, no matter what state they live in.

  175. 175.

    germy

    @jonas:

    the parents were *totally okay* with that?

    I noticed in the courtroom “courtship” anecdote, after Roy got her phone number and called her for a “date” he parked two blocks away from her parents’ house and she had to walk to his car.

    Why not ring the front doorbell, say hi to the Mom, sit in the living room and chat with Dad until his “date” comes downstairs in her prom dress?

  177. 177.

    germy

    @LurkerNoLonger: He stays in the race? He doesn’t seem like a quitter to me.

    Or does he get ejected (I wonder if they’re grooming a replacement?) or does everyone write in Luther Strange?

  179. 179.

    schrodingers_cat

    @LurkerNoLonger: I don’t know whether he is going to win or lose but I find the assumption that Jones has already lost before the election has even taken place, self defeating. The probability of Jones’ win has increased with these revelations, although it is still quite low.

  180. 180.

    Jeffro

    @schrodingers_cat: @Yarrow: @Matt McIrvin: It continues to amaze me how #NeverTrumpers (even late-blooming ones like Scarborough) still have this deep and abiding fear of a Democratic wave. They see it coming, but they want it kept to an absolute minimum, just enough to somehow kick Trumpov out of their party but not have any policy or political consequences for “mainstream” Republicans.

    Sorry NTs but it don’t work that way. Y’all should have spoken up a lot louder and affirmed that there are worse things than losing elections. Like tacitly standing behind the utterly unfit, uniquely incompetent, p____-grabber.

    Plus, what exactly is there to be afraid of? Every time Dems take over, the economy gets back on its feet, the environment gets cleaner, and we can all go off our anxiety meds for 4 or 8 years.

  181. 181.

    Lyrebird

    @jonas:
    1. What @germy said, and
    2. skeezy predators in every state are called “predators” in part bc of how they go after vulnerable youngsters. Even really good people can become lousy, neglectful parents when they’re preoccupied with getting divorced. That Moore found his marks AT CUSTODY HEARINGS makes me more angry than I can say.

  184. 184.

    Immanentize

    @germy: I think the telling thing about the molestation story was that Moore hit in the teen in Court where her Mother was appearing in a custody matter. I have been a juvenile public defender and I know that scene very well. The ‘custody matter’ probably meant a child support hearing, which also suggests some version of poverty in the family. So that fucker was hitting on the daughter of a woman without means and probably just trying to keep it all together. He was unsurprisingly certain no one would give a shit even if they found out. He probably bragged about it over beers.

  190. 190.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Barry: Moore is probably the Harvey Weinstein of AL Republican party. Everybody knew but nobody wanted to do anything about it.

  191. 191.

    Citizen Alan

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    In fairness to Joseph, that interpretation assumes that ANY part of the Nativity story is accurate. If you reject the idea that Jesus was the Son of God, why can’t you just take the next logical step and assume that Jesus was probably the son of Joseph and the whole Virgin Birth thing was tacked on later in order to make the story of Jesus’s birth comport with preexisting prophecies and competing mystery religions?

  192. 192.

    Betty Cracker

    @jonas: As I mentioned above, I’ve got tons of family in AL and used to spend a lot of time there (summers with my grandparents, hanging out with aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.). This included the era when Moore molested that child. A 30-something man hitting on teenagers would NOT have been considered normal by Alabama kin, redneck wingnut jackholes that some of them were/are. They’d have run him off at gunpoint.

  193. 193.

    LurkerNoLonger

    @germy: A Strange write-in vote could split the Moore vote, which allows Doug Jones to win. Stranger things have happened.

  194. 194.

    Brachiator

    Seems that some people in Alabama claim they don’t even know about the Moore story. Somebody needs to make sure that conservative web sites and Facebook get the message.

  195. 195.

    Lyrebird

    @Betty Cracker: Any of your relatives politically inclined? Someone needs to run against this State Rep, whether in a primary or in a general election. He’s saying (link is to RawStory above) the women should be prosecuted for not coming forward earlier. Gee, maybe they did not come forward before precisely because of shitb_gs like you, buddy! (the state rep not you)

    Actually, I know some very sweet people with ostomy bags, and who have [various anatomical appendages], what is a word bad enough for that witness-intimidating creep?

  197. 197.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I find the assumption that Jones has already lost before the election has even taken place, self defeating.

    Obviously, you’ve never been to Ala-fucking-bama. ;-)

  198. 198.

    Matt McIrvin

    @jonas: What I keep thinking of is the way that in old Robert Heinlein stories, there was a strange recurring preoccupation with young girls getting “about husband-high” (a phrase he actually uses more than once). It’s a thing in the patriarchal heartland culture that he came out of, and he never shed it.

  199. 199.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Immanentize: What strikes me about all those suddenly-concerned Republicans saying “if it is true, he should step aside” is nobody, and I mean nobody, is asking them “OK, what would you accept as evidence of truth?” Because I suspect the true answer is “nothing” and they are just trying to play it both ways. The allegation was about events of 40 years ago when Moore and the girl were alone. There won’t be video, so what, precisely, would lead McConnell to believe the woman over Moore?

  203. 203.

    Immanentize

    @Gin & Tonic:
    That is a good question. There is believing and public acceptance of the fact. I think, given how quick the GOP folks were to say, “if true” that they already believe it and maybe know more about it than they are saying. Like maybe old Jeff Sessions shared a thing or two about old Roy Moore….

    That said, whether they ever publicly accept the evidence is entirely a political calculation for these moral, upstanding gentlemen.

  204. 204.

    Gin & Tonic

    Mitt Romney on Twitter:

    Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside.

    This may have no effect on the Moore-Jones race, but tell me some winds haven’t shifted.

  205. 205.

    Jeffro

    @germy: We already have that? If you mean a more steeply progressive income tax…I can’t see it happening. The top rate is already 39.6%, I believe. Hard to see the center-center party pushing for more.

  206. 206.

    Immanentize

    @Gin & Tonic: That is what I am talking about. Political calculation versus belief. I think Moore can lose as there will be no-voters and write in votes. I think that if he dropped out, Strange could win a write-in campaign.

    ETA See, Murkowski 2010; Thurmond 1954.

  207. 207.

    Davebo

    According to the stupidest man on the internet this is all an establishment GOP hit job against Moore!

    It’s “The Walton’s eat their young” playing live.

  208. 208.

    Barbara

    @Matt McIrvin: Well, the margins in Loudoun were pretty eye-popping to me. Few jurisdictions will match Arlington, Alexandria, Charlottesville, Richmond and Norfolk in sheer lopsidedness for Democrats, but Fairfax — a huge, diverse county — was at 67% for Northam, and Loudoun was not far behind at 60. I can remember when no Democrat could ever get elected outside the beltway. I can remember thinking that no Democrat would ever get elected statewide. I can remember when we were grateful to have a Republican like Warner who was not completely cray cray. I’ve lived here for the better part of 40 years. Things really have changed. Making exurban communities better places to live seems like a worthwhile goal to me, among many other worthwhile goals.

  209. 209.

    Betty Cracker

    @Lyrebird: I don’t have much to do with them these days, not since my granny died a couple of years ago. The one aunt who’s on Facebook is a frothing wingnut, but I hardly ever go on Facebook, so I seldom see her rants. If she posts anything about supporting Moore, I’ll tell her she’s a revolting pedophile apologist, unfriend her and never speak to her again.

  210. 210.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Alabama, get away, get away

    Jake Tapper‏Verified account @ jaketapper
    Alabama State Rep: legal action should be considered against Moore’s accusers.

    “The idea that accusations like this would stop his campaign is ludicrous. If this was a habit, like you’ve read with Bill Cosby and millions of dollars paid to settle cases and years of witnesses, that would be one thing,” Henry said. “You cannot tell me there hasn’t been an opportunity through the years to make these accusations with as many times as he’s (Moore) run (for office) and been in the news.
    “If they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to exist for 40 years. I think someone should prosecute and go after them. You can’t be a victim 40 years later, in my opinion,” Henry said.

  211. 211.

    schrodingers_cat

    @OzarkHillbilly: I may not know Bama, but BC does. According to her read of her relatives an upset seems possible, although the probability of such an upset is not very high.

    ETA: If Moore wins, as is more likely he will eclipse Steve King and Goemhert (sp?) as the most embarrassing R Congress critter. So that’s the silver lining.

  212. 212.

    debit

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    “If they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to exist for 40 years. I think someone should prosecute and go after them. You can’t be a victim 40 years later, in my opinion,” Henry said.

    Right. Because there was no chance there’d be this kind of backlash back then, either. It’s people like him that make me really wish Hell actually existed.

  217. 217.

    Calouste

    @Immanentize: I can’t remember where I read it, might have been DKos, but Moore wrote two solos dissents in cases of rape of a minor where he sided with the rapist.

  218. 218.

    WereBear

    @TriassicSands: Although I chose the states I’ve lived in, their political makeup was not the primary reason for my choosing them. Of course, forty years ago it didn’t seem as important. The GOP had only just begun its descent into being completely evil.

    I chose the state I have been my entire adult life solely for political considerations.

    I fled the South because I’d had enough of that kind of crap, and yes, the past few decades have been excruciating because they started boiling out of their cage and infesting the rest of the country. But living in the NE gave me some protection, and still does.

  219. 219.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Gin & Tonic: Mittens is a Mormon and I know it just infuriates Mormons to no end how the way Evangelicals castigate Mormons as sex crazed perverts. I guess the Mormons have a point, for all the stealth polygamy the Mormons are not the ones found dead in two wet suits

  224. 224.

    Betty Cracker

    @schrodingers_cat: I did not mean to imply an upset is possible. I honestly have no idea. I was just adding anecdata to counter the notion that it would have been considered NORMAL in 1970s Alabama for a 30-something dude to pursue a teenager.

  225. 225.

    MattF

    @Immanentize: I guess it’s important to note that Moore losing would be a Good Thing. An additional lunatic Senator would be bad for McConnell and sorta entertaining, but a DEMOCRATIC Senator from Alabama would make McConnell’s life a great deal harder.

  226. 226.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    “If they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to exist for 40 years. I think someone should prosecute and go after them. You can’t be a victim 40 years later, in my opinion,” Henry said.

    That’s because 40 years ago it was The Great Hits of the Bronze Age Patriarchy. or did the good Representative not notice the victim’s mother was eager for Moore to knock her daughter up so he would have to make the daughter and honest woman and marry her? Times have changed, we’re more civilized and now we call child raping perverts the child raping perverts they are.

  227. 227.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Betty Cracker:

    I did not mean to imply an upset is possible. I honestly have no idea. I was just adding anecdata to counter the notion that it would have been considered NORMAL in 1970s Alabama for a 30-something dude to pursue a teenager.

    No I got that. If a fair number of people find Moore disgusting he could lose, was my conclusion. But really, I have no idea what’s going to happen but neither does anyone else.

  228. 228.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes because going after the victims of Moore will not intimidate other women from coming forward in other sexual harassment cases. And because going after Moore’s victims won’t send a clear message to women that they should just shut up about harassment or they’ll be subjected to costly retaliatory lawsuits.

  230. 230.

    Corner Stone

    @MattF:

    but a DEMOCRATIC Senator from Alabama would make McConnell’s life a great deal harder.

    I disagree. If Jones does win this race then he will be a much more pliable vote than Moore is going to be. I think the term for this seat is up in two years, so Jones will be immediately campaigning again. And the next go round AL will choose an R candidate that is just as hateful as Moore so Jones will have his work cut out for him.
    It’s really kind of a shit job if you think about it.

  234. 234.

    Gelfling 545

    @raven: And a joyous natal day to you. Retire. It’s the best. My goal was to make them pay out that pension for as long as possible. It allowed me to take some interesting part time & temp jobs, too.

  235. 235.

    tybee

    @rp: my favorite line from that link:

    “Either Southerners will start improving themselves, or they’ll be sold to middle-class Asians as pets.”

  236. 236.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Corner Stone: if Moore does hang on and Jones squeaks it out, we should prepare ourselves for, probably, a vote for trump’s judges at the very least. But maybe he’ll decide he’s one and done and let his Manchiny freak-flag fly

  237. 237.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @schrodingers_cat: I have spent quite a bit of time in Alabama. Anything is possible, maybe the sun will even rise in the west. The only way I see Jones winning is if Strange launches a credible write in campaign and they split the vote. I could always be wrong, it has happened once or twice in the past. ;-)

  238. 238.

    Another Scott

    @Immanentize: AL.com has a (general) list:

    “[M]inor children will be detrimentally affected by the present lifestyle” – Moore in a 1990s divorce case as he ruled against a woman who had a lesbian affair, according to CNN

    Judge Moore just looooves him some children…

    :-/

    Moore is a monster and obviously has been for decades. I think that the good people of Alabama will refuse to follow him on the road to perdition, but it is likely to be uncomfortably close.

    Here’s hoping that DougJ pull off the win. As many here have noted, if we can’t whole-heartedly support someone who successfully prosecuted KKK members for the murders of four young girls in an infamous 1963 church bombing, who exactly are we waiting for? I just donated again.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  239. 239.

    Betty Cracker

    @Gin & Tonic: I’d like to believe some winds have shifted too, but I remember Romney laying out a detailed case for why Trump was unfit and being ignored. We’ll find out if pedophilia is a bridge too far soon enough, I guess.

  241. 241.

    MattF

    @Corner Stone: I agree that ‘Democratic Senator from Alabama’ is not a job that an ambitious politician would want, but so what? The cliches that win is a win and worse is not better happen to be true.

  242. 242.

    Yarrow

    @OzarkHillbilly: If Moore wins he’ll be in the Senate until he decides not to run again or dies. He’ll be the incumbent in the next election. We’ll also be paying for his gold-plated benefits.

  243. 243.

    Felonius Monk

    @tybee: I preferred this one:

    “The South is gonna rise up, just as soon as we get together and get all our shit back in one sock.

  244. 244.

    satby

    @Jeffro:

    Plus, what exactly is there to be afraid of? Every time Dems take over, the economy gets back on its feet, the environment gets cleaner, and we can all go off our anxiety meds for 4 or 8 years.

    They’re afraid that someday the Republican con game will quit working.

  245. 245.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Here’s the thing for me – 14 isn’t a child, but an adolescent who we protect from sexual oppression by adults because they’re subject to manipulation, and they aren’t yet mature enough to make consistently good choices for their future. I’m in my mid-50s, and came from the progressive parts of the city where teens weren’t bound up in religion based restrictions on sexual activity. We were all pretty well secularized, even the Catholic girls were on the pill, nobody cared about an abortion if one was needed and casual sexual activity among peers close in age wasn’t such a big deal.

    I can say for sure that among girls of my acquaintance from 13 to 18, a guy like Roy Moore would have been run off at first creep, since age-appropriate partners were around. They were strong in personality, and wanted to be with people they wanted to be with, not some pathetic tool. Plus, every damned one of those girls had brothers, friends like brothers, and friends with benefits who would have been happy to take after a guy like Moore with a baseball bat.

  247. 247.

    Cheryl Rofer

  251. 251.

    Humboldtblue

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    One of the tweets I read on the sidebar put it pretty well and highlights a difference in culture between the fundies and everyone else.

    Kathryn Brightbill ✒ @KEBrightbill

    We should probably talk about how there is a segment of evangelicalism and homeschool culture where the only thing Roy Moore did wrong was initiating sexual contact outside of marriage. 14 year old girls courting adult men isn’t entirely uncommon.

    And you make a good point about the age too, it’s age on consent range noting the move from child to adolescent and we use a different term for sexual attraction to that age — hebephilia.

  254. 254.

    rikyrah

    Farmers move to defy Trump on NAFTA

    Source: Politico

    After trusting that the president would have their backs, many agricultural advocates now feel a sense of betrayal.

    By ADAM BEHSUDI 11/09/2017 10:24 PM EST

    After spending nine months indulging President Donald Trump’s desire to renegotiate NAFTA, agricultural groups representing farmers in Trump-supporting states across the heartland are now moving aggressively to save an agreement they consider crucial to their industry.

    The once-powerful agricultural lobby was somewhat muted in its warnings about losing a significant portion of the $17.9 billion worth of agricultural products exported last year to Mexico, the U.S.’ third-largest trading partner, believing that the Trump administration would reach a settlement on other aspects of NAFTA while leaving agricultural trade alone.

    Now, with Trump threatening to issue a formal intent to withdraw from the deal, farming groups say it’s clearer than ever that their pleas to save the pact are barely registering with a president intent on its destruction. “I’ve come to believe this administration is determined to end NAFTA,” said Gordon Stoner, a fourth-generation Montana wheat farmer who leads the National Association of Wheat Growers.

    The fearful tone now coming from many of the nation’s farm groups has only amplified as America’s agriculture sector confronts the loss of its main profit driver — foreign exports. Many are now mobilizing behind the scenes to stave off what most believe would be a disaster for American farmers

    .

  255. 255.

    rikyrah

    Air Force failed three times to stop Texas church shooter from purchasing guns: report

    Source: The Hill

    BY JULIA MANCHESTER – 11/10/17 09:31 AM EST

    The Air Force missed three opportunities to prevent Texas church shooter Devin Kelley from purchasing firearms in recent years, according to a report from Reuters.

    The military branch missed two opportunities to stop Kelley from buying guns after he was accused of violence in 2012, according to officials and military documents obtained by the publication.

    Kelley had been court-martialed in 2012 for assaulting his wife and stepson, including cracking the infant’s skull. Authorities also missed a third chance to put an alert on Kelly when a Pentagon probe of cases did not include him.

    The report comes after the Air Force revealed on Monday it had failed to enter Kelly’s domestic violence conviction in a federal database used for background checks on gun sales.

    http://thehill.com/policy/defense/359766-air-force-failed-three-times-to-stop-texas-church-shooter-from-purchasing-guns

  260. 260.

    rikyrah

    erica orden‏Verified account @eorden

    New: Mueller is investigating alleged plot by Mike Flynn to kidnap a target of Erdogan living in the U.S. and deliver him to Turkey in exchange for $15 million:

  261. 261.

    Another Scott

    @schrodingers_cat: Never’s a very long time. ;-) . 2 planets have retrograde motion and for them the Sun rises in the “west”. Some sort of collision with the Earth that messes up the on-axis spin to reverse the rotation axis isn’t impossible, though it is very unlikely in our lifetimes.

    /pedant

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  262. 262.

    Corner Stone

    @MattF: A win is a win, and I hope Jones wins. My point was clearly that IMO Jones will make McConnell’s life easier than a Senator Moore would.

  264. 264.

    Barbara

    @rikyrah: Did they miss his repeated thundering denunciations of NAFTA as the worst trade deal ever negotiated when they considered who to vote for? This is like the farmers in Ohio and North Carolina weeping about not being able to bring in the harvest because they couldn’t get temporary workers as they had in the past. This actually isn’t theater but real life. I probably care more about what happens to these people than Trump does, but my concern is rapidly dwindling in the face of repeated evidence of willingness to vote mostly to stick a finger in my eye — regardless whether that same vote causes an earthquake beneath their own feet. I will survive the eye pain. Will they survive the earthquake?

  266. 266.

    Brachiator

    @rikyrah:

    After spending nine months indulging President Donald Trump’s desire to renegotiate NAFTA, agricultural groups representing farmers in Trump-supporting states across the heartland are now moving aggressively to save an agreement they consider crucial to their industry.

    The sad thing is that while various clusters of Trump supporters are starting to wise up, overall they still believe that he is the MAGA magic man who is going to fix everything. This is truly the Art of the Con.

    But the clock is ticking and Trump’s lies may finally catch up to him.

  267. 267.

    geg6

    Today is Friday, right?

    Anyone else interested in all the sudden talk about Michael Flynn and Junior? It seems to have ticked up quite a bit in the last day or two.

  274. 274.

    Barbara

    @geg6: There seem to be people who think that this is a not too veiled plea for Trump to pardon Flynn or his son. Anyone who has ever worked on a criminal case that involves family members could tell you that one way to get cooperation from the mastermind is to make it clear that it’s you, or it’s you plus your family, your choice. In most of these cases, the family member who is the ringleader accepts responsibility. But not always.

  277. 277.

    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes

    @Humboldtblue:

    And you make a good point about the age too, it’s age on consent range noting the move from child to adolescent and we use a different term for sexual attraction to that age — hebephilia.

    On dependency, neglect and abuse dockets, we see lots of cases with sexually active adolescents aged 12-16. Here in Louisville, the main complaint is in a lack of control vis-a-vis excessive activity with peers, yet out in the state, a fair amount of that sexual activity occurs with step-parents, uncles and cousins. In those cases, certain patterns assert themselves – usually grooming from about 9 to 11 or 12, then escalating levels of sexual contact. The vast majority of the rural cases I deal with involve white people. I suspect that a lot of the rural problem is rooted in local culture and ignorance.

  278. 278.

    Barbara

    @Yarrow: You know, I think that’s letting them off too easily. The reality is these people are cowards who did not even try to persuade their friends and neighbors what Trump’s rhetoric would mean for them if he acted on it.

  280. 280.

    rikyrah

    Red state lawmakers find blue state piggy bank

    Source: The Hill

    BY JESSIE HELLMANN – 11/10/17 06:06 AM EST

    Red states are using blue states as their new piggy bank in the GOP Congress.

    On big legislative issues such as tax reform and ObamaCare repeal, Republicans in the Senate have sought to redistribute federal funds from New York, New Jersey and other blue states dominated by Democrats to the red states in the South, Midwest and Great Plains that are mostly represented by the GOP.

    The most recent example is a GOP tax plan that would limit local and state sales, income and property tax deductions — which would hurt suburban taxpayers in blue states with high property taxes.

    Republicans are doing away with the deduction because they need to lower the cost of their tax bill, which reduces the corporate tax rate to 20 percent. It just so happens that the major deduction getting the axe delivers big benefits to blue-state taxpayers.

    http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/359669-red-state-lawmakers-find-blue-state-piggy-bank

  281. 281.

    Yarrow

    @Baud: Okay. Sorry I missed it. I read the first part of the thread early this morning, which was awhile ago now. This thread has been going a long time. I can’t edit my comment to give you credit so I guess this will have to do. Everyone, Baud got there first.

  282. 282.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Barbara: One of the attorneys (Weissman?) who joined Mueller’s team to some fanfare got Enron’s CFO to roll by indicting said CFO’s wife.

  285. 285.

    Robert Sneddon

    @Barbara:

    Did they miss his repeated thundering denunciations of NAFTA as the worst trade deal ever negotiated when they considered who to vote for?

    In Britain the fishing communities such as Grimsby voted solidly for Brexit, for Britain to leave the EU which they claimed was stifling their business with quotas and allowing other EU nations to fish in British waters etc. etc. Now they have woken up to the fact Britain exports 75% of its catch to the EU and come Brexit Day those exports into the EU markets will have import tariffs and customs clearances and paperwork and inspections and all the sort of things they didn’t have to face as part of the EU and they want the government to do something to make it easy for them to sell into the EU.

  287. 287.

    Humboldtblue

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    The vast majority of the rural cases I deal with involve white people. I suspect that a lot of the rural problem is rooted in local culture and ignorance.

    Having moved to a remote and rural and very white region I thought maybe the child abuse/sexual abuse/child porn news was big because of our small population and not because of frequency. Turns out that there is a lot of it and it’s almost always committed against a child who knows the abuser.

  290. 290.

    Lyrebird

    @Immanentize: Yes, someone posted two excerpts last night on Twitter & someone linked that here. You are SO right – In at least one case, Moore was bringing up the underage girl’s history, saying that should be used to evaluate the perp’s case. (girl’s age was 12 or 14) GRRRRR

    Here’s hoping some like-minded folks in Ala. do what you said!

  291. 291.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: They are magnetic. The earth’s orbit around the sun and its rotation around its axis (that causes days and nights) is not going to change no matter where on the earth, you are. I mean in reality, its the earth that’s moving and not the sun*.

    Comparatively speaking of course. (mass of the sun >> mass of the earth)

  293. 293.

    Shana

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: My older daughter, raised almost from birth in Virginia, went to Chicago for college. She called me one January morning as she was walking to class and said “One of my eyelids is frozen shut. Why didn’t you tell me how cold it gets here?” We did, of course, having lived our whole lives in the Midwest until we moved to Virginia, but if you’ve never experienced it, it’s hard to imagine it. We still laugh about that conversation.

  295. 295.

    Matt McIrvin

    @germy: Maybe, but my impression is that in recent years Fox’s election polls haven’t been particularly cooked at all (compared to, say, Rasmussen). Probably just a statistical fluctuation.

  298. 298.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Baud: East, west or the direction in which the sun rises has more to do with our frame of reference and how we chose to define the relative motions of the sun and the earth, than the actual motion itself.

  299. 299.

    Robert Sneddon

    @schrodingers_cat: The British Empire is a couple of generations in the past[1], something for the history books, like how racism doesn’t exist in America any more after the first black President was elected.

    There were a few Brexit crazies who yammered on about the benefits of trading with the Commonwealth (the loose grouping of nations of the Empire who considered it worthwhile to maintain some form of connection with each other after they broke with Britain) now that we were going to be free of the shackles of Brussels but they were roundly mocked. The Commonwealth nations liked the ability to trade with the UK using a special “historical” status negotiated when Britain joined back in the 1970s (cane sugar imports from Jamaica, for example) as that gave them easier access to the larger EU marketplace and they’re generally pissed off about it, however they usually have their own direct arrangements in place for most exports to the EU and won’t really notice when we do leave.

    [1] I’m old enough to remember when Hong Kong became a self-governing state which meant there was no Empire east of Aden in the Middle East.

  300. 300.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I suspect well-intentioned internauts can help Senator Lee with this request as they see fit…

    Axios‏Verified account
    Sen. Mike Lee has asked Roy Moore’s campaign to stop using Lee’s image.

  301. 301.

    Sherparick

    @Brachiator: That hardcore does not care or expect him to keep material promises. They love him for bringing the hammer down on Brown foreign immigrants, calling Black people (most recently Black NFL players) names, & making liberals & hippies cry. Also confirming that they are picked on & right to feel sorry for themselves & treat other people like shit.

  303. 303.

    J R in WV

    @raven:

    Actually tomorrow is Armistice Day, remembering the 11th minute of the 11th hour of the 11th day of November, the last moment of the Great War in 1918. Today is a holiday of being off work for some, federal and state workers mostly.

    Got an early call from the machining corp reworking a new part for my brush-hog drive shaft, in which a shear bolt sheared the last time I tried to mow the bottoms. The shearing bolt deformed the sleeve of the drive shaft where it was connected to the gear box of the mower, so I ordered a new part from the parts list that came with, at the dealer that sold it all to me.

    When the new part ($151) came in, the sleeve intended to slide over the shaft of e mower was TOO SMALL, even with a big hammer. So I got a caliper to measure both parts and went to the local big machining company with a page of measurements. Turns out the shaft is 36mm and the sleeve is some Fqed up English size, smaller than the shaft.

    They informed me early this morning that they had bored out the sleeve, hopefully to be just over the 36mm size of the shaft. They charge $69/hour for machining, so should cost around that much. Will run other errands after picking up the part. Installing tomorrow. There’s a clutch assembly on the mower end of the drive shaft, so that should slip rather than the shear bolt breaking.

    I have to assume there was too much friction in the clutch pack. No torque numbers for the spring loaded bolts that hold the clutch together, I know how many threads were showing and will put that much twist on each of the 8 bolts, then back off a little bit. I’m not a mechanic, but I at least have a clue.

    Hope there is a big news dump as I’m driving around, at home most of my real news is found here, out driving I listen to NPR or POTUS on SiriusXM, which if big news drops will be interesting shows.

  304. 304.

    Matt McIrvin

    @LurkerNoLonger:

    There are certain things, like child molestation, that people find abhorrent, no matter what state they live in.

    There’s still a large segment of US culture–Roy Moore’s segment, more or less–that doesn’t see this as child molestation. Grown men marrying young teenagers is fine to them, and if he didn’t have sex with her outside of marriage or do something without her dad’s permission, no harm no foul.

  307. 307.

    WaterGirl

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    “The idea that accusations like this would stop his campaign is ludicrous. If this was a habit, like you’ve read with Bill Cosby and millions of dollars paid to settle cases and years of witnesses, that would be one thing,” Henry said.

    This is the point on Law & Order where all the other women who have been keeping silent come forward.

    Let’s hope real life imitates art. (or Law & Order, at least)

  308. 308.

    bemused

    Looks like two seats will be open in Minnesota. Rep Tony Cornish (R) and Senator Dan Schoen (D) busted for sexual abuse.

  309. 309.

    J R in WV

    @MattF:

    That whole story, all those Alabama red-necks are forgetting that she was the VIRGIN MARY and Joseph, NOT the molested or raped Mary. That’s the point of the whole story after all…

    Every time I think there’s no way the Republican party can’t go lower, they dive right through the previous floor into new and more vile news. Despicable is as Rs do.

  312. 312.

    rikyrah

    @satby:
    People who don’t live in cold weather don’t get the fundamental difference between 15 and 25 degrees. It’s literally night and day. 25 degrees means regular winter coat.

    15 means Eskimo coat and gear.

  316. 316.

    Cheryl Rofer

    @schrodingers_cat:

    There may be more. I’m not watching closely.

  317. 317.

    Humboldtblue

    This cannot be who we are.

    Oh you blinkered motherfucker, this is who you are and this is the nice part of who you are. The real nasty shit will be found at the Uber-Christian frat house your colleagues have been running for the past 25 years. Guarantee some rapey rapey shit has gone down there on a regular basis.

  322. 322.

    Ruckus

    How low can the gop go?
    You know that sea bed that whale shit finally gets to? Lower than that. You know that geological region where oil is found? Lower. You know the center of the earth, the hot part, the part that some would call hell? Now we are getting close.

  323. 323.

    geg6

    @Barbara:

    I totally understand all of that but this story has really ramped up the last day or so, with details that cannot be coming from Flynn or his allies because it doesn’t do him any favors. Something is happening.

  324. 324.

    (((CassandraLeo)))

    @Bobby Thomson: This is technically true, as Trump didn’t allegedly rape a fourteen-year-old; he allegedly raped a thirteen-year-old (and there was a witness who backed up the accuser’s statements in court). I’m puzzled at how thoroughly that case disappeared down the memory hole.

    In any case, for practical purposes, there isn’t much difference between the two.

  325. 325.

    cokane

    R’s will stick by Moore too because of the Senate balance, dropping to 51 votes makes folks like Collins, Murkowski all the more powerful, something the mainstream of the party cannot suffer. Nothing is more important than beating libs.

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