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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / An analysis of the circumstances surrounding the aborted Trump-Taliban meeting at Camp David

An analysis of the circumstances surrounding the aborted Trump-Taliban meeting at Camp David

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Here are Trump’s tweets on the matter:

Unbeknownst to almost everyone, the major Taliban leaders and, separately, the President of Afghanistan, were going to secretly meet with me at Camp David on Sunday. They were coming to the United States tonight. Unfortunately, in order to build false leverage, they admitted to..

….an attack in Kabul that killed one of our great great soldiers, and 11 other people. I immediately cancelled the meeting and called off peace negotiations. What kind of people would kill so many in order to seemingly strengthen their bargaining position? They didn’t, they….

….only made it worse! If they cannot agree to a ceasefire during these very important peace talks, and would even kill 12 innocent people, then they probably don’t have the power to negotiate a meaningful agreement anyway. How many more decades are they willing to fight?

Then, as the body of the “great great soldier”* who was recently killed in a Taliban attack arrived at Dover, Trump tweeted a cat video mocking CNN’s role in SharpieGate and a clip of Fox News personality “Judge Jeanine” braying angrily at a studio camera about “Leakin’ Lyin’ James Comey.”

After careful analysis of these events, my response is as follows: What the fucking FUCK?

The end.

*His name was Sergeant 1st Class Elis Barreto Ortiz, and he was 34 years old. He was from Puerto Rico.

Reader Interactions

152Comments

  1. 1.

    JPL

    Many details of the scrapped Camp David meeting were unclear on Saturday night. The senior Trump administration official said that the decision to cancel the meeting had been made on Thursday, but that Mr. Trump had delayed his announcement. On Friday, Afghan officials confirmed that Mr. Ghani postponed a planned meeting in Washington. One person familiar with the diplomacy said that the plan for a Taliban visit to Washington had not been under discussion until about a week ago. (Taliban representatives have not yet confirmed that they ever planned to attend such a meeting.

    From the NYTimes

    You didn’t cancel the meeting, I canceled the meeting.

  2. 2.

    Cheryl Rofer

    Good analysis, Betty! Perhaps all that needs to be said, although this New York Times article has more. Reading between the lines gives even more.

    A quick analysis of the Times article suggests that Trump is becoming desperate for a foreign-policy win.

    With the president himself showing more engagement in the talks in recent weeks after boiling criticism of a deal that was finalized “in principle,” the Trump administration had set in motion a daring gambit: Fly the insurgents’ leaders and the Afghan leader, Ashraf Ghani, to American soil.

    This sounds very much like a Trump reality show gambit. Which his underlings then have to try to make happen. Which pisses off the principals, who have thought they were doing something else.

    And then everything collapses.

    THE END

    It’s not clear whether this will replace #Sharpiegate in Trump’s tweets. There are too many ways this is embarrassing for him and too few ways he can twist it to make it “really” a win.

  3. 3.

    Aleta

    “What kind of people would kill so many in order to seemingly strengthen their bargaining position?”

    Republicans. And anyone who supports CBP and ICE policies and the T admin.

  4. 4.

    Yutsano

    In order for the Taliban contingent to arrive today they would have had to have left yesterday. So did they get stopped on the ground in the only functioning international airport in Afghanistan? Were they already in the air? And how does something like that not get noticed by Afghan journalists and such? It’s not like Taliban leaders have right of freedom of movement. As with all things in this administration, nothing about this passes the test of smell.

  5. 5.

    JPL

    Another NYTimes article

    KABUL, Afghanistan — Even as President Trump blamed a recent Taliban attack for his decision to call off nearly yearlong negotiations with the insurgents, officials suggested on Sunday it had more to do with the Taliban’s resistance to the American terms for a peace deal, and a rushed plan for a Camp David summit meeting.

    I’d happily provide links, but for some reason my tablet won’t let me. hmm that never happens with Washington Post links.

  6. 6.

    feebog

    He was hoping for a photo op wherein he could claim a deal was clinched. It was obvious that wasn’t going to happen. So pull the plug.

  7. 7.

    Another Scott

    As of 15 minutes ago, he was twattering about The Wall. Back to his greatest hits…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  8. 8.

    JPL

    @Yutsano: It’s not clear that there was going to be a meeting and IMO that is why trump was tweeting. He was probably concerned that the word would get out that his great plan blew up in his face.

  10. 10.

    Betty Cracker

    @Cheryl Rofer: I think it’s safe to filter every Trump action through the “reality TV show” lens. He was likely aiming for a “win” he could produce with a flourish on 9/11, and it blew up as you described.

  11. 11.

    debbie

    Trump’s recalled Zalmay Khalilzad to D.C. Look for him to be “retired” in the near future. I’m beginning to think John Bolton is behind all of this.

  14. 14.

    trollhattan

    Whither Jared, Bringer of Peace?

    Beginning to think this administration might possibly not have a plan here.

  15. 15.

    debbie

    @Betty Cracker:

    he could produce with a flourish on 9/11, and it blew up as you described

    Pun intended or not, how stupid would someone have to be to think it was a good idea meeting with the enabler of 9/11 on 9/11?

  16. 16.

    Amir Khalid

    Was this proposed secret meeting real in the first place? If it was, and then didn’t come to pass, Trump shouldn’t be talking about it in public so as not to jinx the prospects for a future meeting. Nor should he trash-talk the people he was going to meet with; that usually makes people less receptive to anything the American side says, meeting or no.
    WTFF, indeed.

  17. 17.

    Another Scott

    @JPL: I thought that GoFundMe was going to take care of the cost. Was I misinformed???!!?

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  18. 18.

    Patricia Kayden

    “one of our great great soldiers” who I could care less about since it’s all about me.

  21. 21.

    dmsilev

    @debbie:

    Pun intended or not, how stupid would someone have to be to think it was a good idea meeting with the enabler of 9/11 on 9/11?

    Picture, if you will, a man stupid enough to mark up a weather map with a Sharpie and then spend a week trying to claim that it was genuine. That stupid.

  23. 23.

    lumpkin

    I think the whole purpose of that tweet was so trump could show off his new big word: “unbeknownst”.

  24. 24.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Amir Khalid: Trump isn’t normal and his is not a normal presidency. He could care less about foreign relations or diplomacy. I see that Pompeo is on tv supporting Trump’s silliness so **shrugs**. Democrats can add this to their impeachment proceedings.

  26. 26.

    sukabi

    @JPL: nobody cancelled the meeting. There was no meeting. Drumpf was losing the great sharpie war over Dorian and needed the subject changed.

  28. 28.

    Another Scott

    @Amir Khalid: I assume it went down the way his first invite to Kim went down. Namely (IIRC):

    – Donnie busted in on a meeting discussing status of Kim/ROK/etc.
    – Donnie gets brilliant idea to propose meeting with Kim
    — “Only I can fix it!” Genius! Nobel Prize for sure!!
    – As expected, Donnie can’t fix it.

    Similarly with the Afghanistan meeings:
    – Claims of progress being made, close to (the absolute first step baseline agreement before even getting the Afghanistan government a seat at the table) progress.
    – Donnie hears briefing on the progress.
    – Donnie gets brilliant idea to propose meetings at Camp David.
    — “Only I can fix it!” Genius! Nobel Prize for sure!!
    – As expected, Donnie can’t fix it, but this time Ghani blows it up because (obviously) he’s not willing to cut his own throat to give Donnie his bigly win.

    Something like that.

    To be clear, IMO, sometimes it makes sense to go around traditional protocols about the President not talking to people until all the Ts are crossed, etc. One could make a case that Donnie talking to Kim was a good thing because it dramatically ramped down the talk of war. But sensible, long-lasting agreements that actually solve problems take years of effort and can’t be done on a reality-show basis. Donnie and his team can’t do that.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  29. 29.

    Sloane Ranger

    His name was Sergeant 1st Class Elis Barreto Ortiz, and he was 34 years old. He was from Puerto Rico.

    Oh well, it’s not like he was a real American (TM) or anything. Snark, in case anyone thinks otherwise.

    The thing with secret negotiations is that, in the past, no one involved mentioned them publicly at the time, even if they broke down. You only found out about them years afterwards when someone wrote their memoirs. Why piss off the other party when you still want to do business with them? Oh, forgot, he thinks he’s dealing with some small time contractor who can’t walk away without suffering a potentially company destroying loss.

    How many more decades are they willing to fight?

    He doesn’t know much about the history of Afghanistan does he?

  30. 30.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Then, as the body of the “great great soldier”* who was recently killed in a Taliban attack arrived at Dover,

    stuart stevens @ stuartpstevens
    That soldier is Sgt. 1st Class Elis Angel Barreto Ortiz, a paratrooper from Puerto Rico, a part of America that you don’t seem to realize is America. Nine Puerto Ricans have received the Medal of Honor.

    ETA: Has trump ever been to Dover?

  31. 31.

    Mainmata

    Throughout his presidency, Trump has approached most initiatives as the star of a reality TV show, as Betty said. In fact, he has never even tried to grapple seriously with issues, much less foreign policy issues like Afghanistan that have bedevilled nations for centuries. I don’t think this issue or really any foreign policy issue is going to be seriously addressed until the next administration hopefully early 2021.

  32. 32.

    Geoduck

    Yeah, put me in the camp of “there was never any meeting to begin with, and he pulled it all out of his ass.” Or maybe there was some vague discussion about doing it.

  33. 33.

    debbie

    Well, this is interesting:

    #Russia's state media:Draft peace agreement between the Taliban and the Trump admin said that U.S. forces will leave five bases in Afghanistan within 135 days of signing the document, the U.S. & the Taliban insist that Russia be present at the possible signing of the agreements. pic.twitter.com/YjZBjacYLz— Julia Davis (@JuliaDavisNews) September 8, 2019

  34. 34.

    Aleta

    The way I picture it: Trump fantasizes a meeting at Camp David consisting of “I take photo (note to self: include Kush and his coffeeboy); Taliban wear Trump hats in front of T-Force 1. I announce, ‘Peace achieved, another promise kept.’ ”

    Someone points out an easier way: Show press that we wrote ‘meeting’ on the Presidential schedule. But now it’s cancelled. Continue to keep idea of secret negotiations afloat all year.

    Someone else points out high probability they’d be turned away at the airport and sent back. Like those students and people who won awards and professors and green card holders and … . More bad press.

    Someone quickly writes ‘Nap’ on schedule. Everyone but Trump is invited to meet back at someone’s office for another drink.

  35. 35.

    Another Scott

    @Sloane Ranger:

    The thing with secret negotiations is that, in the past, no one involved mentioned them publicly at the time, even if they broke down.

    Except, of course, Pomepo and his team has been saying for months that they were going to have peace agreement by September 1. (from June):

    KABUL (Reuters) – U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met Afghan President Ashraf Ghani during an unannounced visit to Kabul on Tuesday to discuss ongoing peace talks with the Taliban and the security situation ahead of Afghan presidential polls in September.

    [ photo ]

    Pompeo stopped over on his way to New Delhi for meetings with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and other officials.

    His visit to Afghanistan, which lasted about seven hours, comes ahead of a seventh round of peace talks between Taliban leaders and U.S. officials aimed at finding a political settlement to end the 18-year-old war in Afghanistan. The next round of peace talks is scheduled to begin on June 29 in Doha.

    “I hope we have a peace deal before September 1. That’s certainly our mission set,” Pompeo said.

    The talks between the United States and the Taliban will focus on working out a timeline for the withdrawal of U.S.-led troops from Afghanistan and on a Taliban guarantee that militants will not plot attacks from Afghan soil.

    “While we’ve made clear to the Taliban that were prepared to remove our forces, I want to be clear, we’ve not yet agreed on a timeline to do so,” said Pompeo.

    […]

    Nothing like increasing our leverage by saying we really, really want to get out of there yesterday, and by the way, we want a deal by September 1. Genius!

    To be clear: Obama continued Bush’s mistakes by talking about “defeating the Taliban” for far too long. Defeating the Taliban was never in the cards as long as we weren’t willing to go to war with Pakistan. (And we sensibly weren’t willing to do that.) We should have done much more to get talks started years ago. But just packing up and leaving now isn’t the solution.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  37. 37.

    Just Chuck

    On 9/11 of 2019, Trump planned to hold secret talks with the Taliban.

    Just put that in white letters on a black screen for 30 seconds and there’s your ad.

    Though it’s not like the truth matters anymore.

  38. 38.

    Sister Golden Bear

    During the overnight thread, there was a question about why many in the trans community aren’t real fond of Ru Paul (and Ru Paul’s Drag Race).

    Here’s a quick summary. As I said last night, 1) Ru has definite ideas about what drag “should” be — both stylistically,* and that it’s the exclusive realm of gay cisgender men, and 2) as the article aptly sums it up: “To understand why RuPaul has always been resistant to let go of what he finds to be harmless jokes, you have to understand that he built his career on the principle that no one should take themselves or gender particularly seriously. In fact, as he told Vulture, his vision of drag is that it’s meant to “remind culture to not take itself seriously.” When he gets asked about the trans community’s relation to drag, he said, he just gets bored because “we mock identity. They take identity very seriously.”” Which is easy for him to say, because he can take the wig and make-up off at the end of the night.

    FWIW, this bit totally resonates with why I started doing drag pre-transition, and burlesque more recently:

    And as trans drag king K. James puts it, adopting an onstage persona is a way to express a part of himself that he can’t quite otherwise, given many people’s hostility toward the trans community:

    The major point of performing as a trans person for me is taking control of how people see me. Because trans people are objectified: We face violence and street harassment, or just being generally stared at, being objectified and pathologized by doctors in the medical community as a whole.

    But when you’re a trans person and you get to put yourself onstage, you’re basically inviting people to objectify you in a way, but you are taking back the control of that objectification.

    For trans performers, drag can represent a kind of freedom that’s otherwise out of reach — a freedom they work hard to find and cultivate in their work.

    *It’s notable that he’s only cast one contestant from San Francisco. Speculation here is that SF’s scene, which often has a less glamorous, punk-rock flavor to it, doesn’t fit with Ru’s tendency to prefer more pageant queen-style drag.

    I’m off to bed, so if you’ve got questions, I’ll need to answer them in one of the threads later in the day.

  39. 39.

    sukabi

    @debbie: or that. Either way the simplest explanations are usually right.

    2 things we know about drumpf. He lies. And he lies about lying. 3 things. And he cheats to “win”.

  41. 41.

    Sebastian

    @debbie:
    He is a complete idiot. That’s the other lens you have to use. It’s the guy who remodeled airplane bathrooms with marble and installed heavy carpets and curtains to make “it look classy” and then when the plane exceeded max weight wanted to get rid of the 3rd cockpit crew (which the FAA and everyone else told him to fuck off).

    There is no plan, there is no intelligence. He is an idiot.

  42. 42.

    trollhattan

    @sukabi:
    4. He lies about cheating. 5. He pays after claiming “I never pay.”

    This is a trap, isn’t it and I have socks to arrange.

  43. 43.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Another Scott: in his first meeting with KJU, he bragged that there were “more cameras than the Oscars”. That’s what it’s all about

    @Just Chuck: Though it’s not like the truth matters anymore.

    It’s not the MAGAts who confuse me, or even the Wall St/Country Club types who close their eyes and think of the their portfolios, it’s the (apparently) 10-20% of the country who don’t approve of trump, but think impeachment is somehow a bridge too far, or wouldn’t be fair

  44. 44.

    Gelfling 545

    @Amir Khalid: I don’t believe it existed anywhere but in Trump’s imagination. Who in the Taliban faction would trust the Trump administration enough to come to the US with any confidence that their freedom/life would not be at risk? Even much of the GOP know enough not to believe Trump so why would a foreign adversary?

  46. 46.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Sloane Ranger:

    He doesn’t know much about the history of Afghanistan does he?

    There’s an interesting article here (from a couple of years ago) about the many reasons Afghanistan is known as “the graveyard of empires.”

    And no, Trump knows nothing of this history. But we all knew that.

  48. 48.

    NotMax

    @Yutsano

    No particular indication the Taliban members would be leaving from Afghanistan. Most of the talks (hesitate to say negotiations as the current Afghan government is not often present) have been held in Qatar. Presumably that would be the embarkation point.

  49. 49.

    MattF

    A lot of otherwise rational people have tried to make sense of Trump’s actions, and all of them have failed. It’s time for the Razor. Long past time, actually.

  50. 50.

    RAVEN

    Well we blew past the army motorcade-and
    It’s abnormal load haulage the gravity of the situation
    Came on us like a bit of new knowledge the bubbliest bubble bath
    Broke down on the bank the gravity of the situation
    Is why our old thought bubbles sank humble
    And gracious the gravity of the situation
    Well, a fat hungry english crow is picking at a badger carcass
    The gravity of the situation is hard to focus and harness well,
    We met Bill Lowery at the Queen’s Hal lthe gravity of the situation
    Became apparent to us all
    Humble and gracious the gravity of the situation

    https://youtu.be/uRrXpC3tV_g

  51. 51.

    Kay

    Millionaire investment banker Rahm Emanuel says supporting Medicare For All is “reckless” and “literally hindering yourself for the general election.”

    Cable tv personalities are interviewing Rahm Emanuel and Chris Christie to take the pulse of the nation. Christie was the most unpopular governor in the country when he left office and Emanuel was so unpopular he ran away rather than run again. And they’re both multimillionaires.

    Oh, and they’re all promoting Mattis’ book without asking him about the Theranos scandal (which is going to trial – criminal- and where he should be called as a witness) or the Trump hotel military scandal.

    We have a lot of work to do. This will be uphill all the way. They’ve actually gotten worse since 2016.

  53. 53.

    MomSense

    I can’t believe this is the kind of horse manure we are forced to speculate about. Holding a meeting with the taliban at Camp David on 9-11 is just stupid and insulting enough that I believe he wanted to do it. I don’t think the meeting was ever serious or confirmed so his cancellation of it adds another layer of idiocy and incompetence on top of the original mess. I do think he knows he fucked up with the Alabama sharpie thing and he knows it made him look stupid which is why he has gone to such great lengths to fix it and now distract from it with the 9-11 taliban summit.

    Nothing will come of any of it though because we’ll be on to the next nonsense tomorrow. There is such a massive pile of crap at this point that we can’t even remember most of it or which day/week/month/century it happened. The serious and the absurd are all blurring together and I think it just makes most people feel exhausted and apathetic.

    I think we need to sort out which scandal to focus on and stick to it. How we do that I don’t know.

  54. 54.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mainmata:

    Throughout his presidency, Trump has approached most initiatives as the star of a reality TV show, as Betty said.

    I’m not sure whether you (or Betty) saw this opinion piece in the NYT. I don’t think it explains everything about Trump, but I do think the “reality-TV” lens can be a useful and accurate analytical tool in many instances. Worth the read, IMO, whatever one thinks of the author’s premises.

  55. 55.

    MattF

    @MomSense: Rick Wilson says we’re in the ‘eccentric dictator’ phase of Trump’s tenure. But, sadly, no horse in the Senate. Yet.

    ETA: Unless you count Lindsay.

  56. 56.

    Kay

    The “adult in the room” (Mattis) released a book attacking Obama just to kick off rooting for his team in 2020. At what fucking point are these people discredited? What do they have to do? Mattis was involved in a huge business scandal that is, right now, going to trial. He was also potentially involved in the Trump hotel corruption scam. He’s touring the country attacking Obama. WTF? We’re all supposed to pretend this guy is some kind of civic leader?

    Is it POSSIBLE for an elite to be discredited? They don’t care about their reputations because what they DO has no effect on their reputations! They inexplicably retain good reputations no matter what they do.

  58. 58.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay: I gave up on the Sunday shows a long time ago, but didn’t ABC used to have Krugman on? Do they still?

    Even Dave Weigel, whose politics seem fairly idiosyncratic but lean toward Paul-ism, noticed that ABC was reverting to it’s old ways

    Dave Weigel @ daveweigel
    Ah, yes, a perfectly balanced panel: A centrist Democrat, a center-right Republican, a conservative magazine editor, and two straight news reporters.

  59. 59.

    NotMax

    With elections scheduled for the end of September, Ghani by necessity will play his strongest cards, and those do not include photo opping with Taliban.

    @charon

    Russia, China, India and Pakistan all have been involved with the talks.

  61. 61.

    Mike in NC

    Fat Bastard will hold a hate rally and blame the failed Taliban talks on ‘nasty Nancy’ Pelosi, and the boobs will cheer him again.

  64. 64.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay: For the Village, Mattis is the new John McCain, without a Palin-shaped stain on his record. He’s their new war-hero surrogate daddy and nothing will make them see that he’s a straight-up partisan. At the link, a quote from Face the Nation where he wasn’t asked about using military funds to grease trump, or Theranos, or sending troops to the border in the run-up to the mid-terms, but felt free to opine about The Debt and “the lack of friendliness”. The real threats to our country. If I didn’t think that he knows he would reach out and snap tweety’s neck after three minutes of babble-screech (if that neck could in fact be snapped), he’d be taking tweety along on his book tours to set up the Tip-Ronnie-Bourbon story

  65. 65.

    MomSense

    @MattF:

    I think there’s always some aspect of the dictator persona that is eccentric and while we are all guffawing at their absurdity they manage to deregulate everything and put babies in cages and funnel money and power to cronies and sycophants. It’s why lately I’ve been looking to how dictators were finally toppled. What did the people focus on in their messages? What were the tactics? How did they build coalitions? We’ve got to figure out how to pierce through all this insanity.
    @Kay:
    I’m shocked at how few people, even those in my friend circles who are well informed, know how deep Mattis was in the Theranos con. He was on Toad’s Meet the Press today but I missed it. I wonder if Todd asked him about Theranos.

  71. 71.

    Zinsky

    Hi ? @MattF: The Progressive Caucus is the largest caucus in the U.S. House of Representatives, yet they get little or no media coverage? Coincidence? The Repukes have attacked the media and shamed or hornswaggled them into giving the so-called Freedom (read, fascist) Caucus far more media attention than they deserve. They should be focused on their myriad sexual perversions, broken marriages, lying and cheating. They are horrible, evil people and belong in prison or a facility for sexual deviants!

  72. 72.

    MomSense

    Another unsettling thing about this 9-11 Trump Taliban Summit is the coordination of the messaging about it between the Taliban and Russia. I’m link challenged right now, but @juliadavisnews is tweeting about it. She’s a good source on the Russia stuff.

  73. 73.

    MattF

    @JPL: The book, ‘Bad Blood’, about Theranos, is pretty neutral on Mattis. The book does underline that he was widely respected and that everyone in the military was frightened of him. Joining Trump’s administration was an awful mistake for Mattis, and he needs to own up to that, at least.

  75. 75.

    Villago Delenda Est

    I doubt if any meeting with the Taliban at Camp David was real outside the boundaries of Donald’s twisted brain.

  76. 76.

    GregB

    The meeting collapsed when the Taliban refused to commit to holding their global terrorist convention at a Trump property.

  79. 79.

    John Revolta

    Meanwhile in Hong Kong

    Thousands of protesters earlier sang the Star Spangled Banner and called on U.S. President Donald Trump to “liberate” the city. They waved the Stars and Stripes and placards demanding democracy.
    “Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong,” they shouted before handing over petitions at the U.S. Consulate. “Resist Beijing, liberate Hong Kong.” (Reuters)

    This kinda makes me doubt everything else I’ve seen over there this summer. Trump’s gonna save them?
    This demonstrates a somewhat weak grasp of the situation.
    Of course if we had a normal President who hadn’t pissed away any possible pull we had with the Chinese government (for NO GOOD REASON I might add)……………………………..

  80. 80.

    Chris Johnson

    @MattF:

    Rick Wilson says we’re in the ‘eccentric dictator’ phase of Trump’s tenure. But, sadly, no horse in the Senate. Yet.

    ETA: Unless you count Lindsay.

    That’s not all of a horse.

  81. 81.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @MattF: I don’t doubt that Mattis despises trump, but he resigned over less war, not the use of military personnel as political props. And according to O’Bros Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes, he has no compunctions about using his recent celebrity to go after Obama very directly, and National Review types agree– they’re all up in arms that no one’s talking about how Mattis accuses Obama (and Biden) of losing Iraq (I haven’t read the book, and I won’t, my opinion on him was formed when he went along with the border stunt, and it’s gonna take a lot more than some indirect shade to change it)

  83. 83.

    JPL

    @MattF: He won’t and neither will Kelly. We were told that there were grown ups in the room and at the time it wasn’t apparent that they were able to control trump. Now without anyone to tell him no, he’ll be able to draw on charts with his sharpie all the time.

  85. 85.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @germy: I would love to see Lindsey’s texts and phone records as he left that meeting with Geert Wilders yesterday and got word that the Skipper to his Gilligan was gonna have the Taliban up to Camp David

  88. 88.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Fuck him. Obama was right to fire him. How long were we supposed to pour money and people into Iraq? Until the military is satisfied? They’re never satisfied. Since the Civil War they have been insisting they’re underfunded and undermanned. How much are we supposed to spend on them? Do they have a percentage? Can they give us a clue more specific than “infinite amounts?”

  89. 89.

    germy

    Here’s hero McCain posing with Wilders:

    For a decade the GOP has normalized him. They've lifted him from the dark fringes of politics into the mainstream because he does the dirty work for them. They have helped build Geert Wilders' Islamophobic brand. He's been hosted by members of GOP at RNC, in the Senate, CPAC etc. pic.twitter.com/pHT6kzX7GU— Nadine van der Velde (@nadinevdVelde) September 8, 2019

    Lindsey is just continuing that fine tradition

  90. 90.

    John Revolta

    @germy: I wear Army boots a lot of the time because they’re comfortable and durable. For a number of years during Bush Jr. we were having them made in China. Eventually I guess they figured out that if we ever had to fight a war with them we’d have to do it barefoot.

  91. 91.

    Aleta

    I was cynical-jokey about the reality of the meeting (which provides release for my anger but not helpful. Reporting about Taliban statements, from NYT:

    “officials suggested on Sunday [that calling off the meeting] had more to do with the Taliban’s resistance to the American terms for a peace deal, and a rushed plan for a Camp David summit meeting.
    …
    the Trump administration had set in motion a … gambit: Fly the insurgents’ leaders and the Afghan leader, Ashraf Ghani, to American soil. … (S)eparate meetings with each side would then lead to a grand announcement by Mr. Trump, according to Afghan, Western and Taliban officials with knowledge of the peace talks. The Americans were also rushing to finalize outstanding issues, including disagreements over prisoner release, before the meeting on Sunday.

    The Taliban leaders, however, having refused to negotiate directly with the Afghan government until after the group had an agreement with the United States, had compared the proposal to the Americans’ tricking them into political suicide.

    “We promised there would be intra-Afghan talks once we finalized our agreement with the Americans,” a senior Taliban leader said. “If Trump and his administration think they would solve the confrontation between the government and the Taliban somewhere in Washington in a meeting, that’s not possible because we do not recognize the stooge government.”

    The group said in a statement said it received an invitation in late August to visit the United States, but had put off a decision until the deal was finalized.”

    After seeing how the admin. announced its plans in the M.E. w/o agreement from Palestinian leaders, this seems believable enough.

    A racist misogynistic US administration can’t negotiate to achieve peace. Ours won’t even pretend respect by using established formality. A narcissistic liar can’t do anything but use people and try to steamroll them.

  93. 93.

    Redshift

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Has trump ever been to Dover?

    He’s been twice, once in February 2017 and once in January 2019. I remember reading reports after the first one that he told his staff that he didn’t enjoy it and he didn’t want to do it again.

  94. 94.

    JoyceH

    @Villago Delenda Est: Thank you! It really bugs me that the news media is accepting this meeting plan as fact without getting independent verification from outside the executive branch. Haven’t they figured out YET that this administration has corrupted the government so completely that we can no longer trust the weatherman to tell us which way the wind is blowing?

  95. 95.

    ET

    There is a story behind all this, but I bet $$$ that it doesn’t look like what tRump was tweeting about.

  97. 97.

    Aleta

    Taliban statements, via NYT reporting:

    … ”the Trump administration had set in motion a … gambit: Fly the insurgents’ leaders and the Afghan leader, Ashraf Ghani, to American soil.

    … separate meetings with each side would then lead to a grand announcement by Mr. Trump, according to Afghan, Western and Taliban officials with knowledge of the peace talks. The Americans were also rushing to finalize outstanding issues, including disagreements over prisoner release, before the meeting on Sunday.

    The Taliban leaders, however, having refused to negotiate directly with the Afghan government until after the group had an agreement with the United States, had compared the proposal to the Americans’ tricking them into political suicide.

    “We promised there would be intra-Afghan talks once we finalized our agreement with the Americans,” a senior Taliban leader said. “If Trump and his administration think they would solve the confrontation between the government and the Taliban somewhere in Washington in a meeting, that’s not possible because we do not recognize the stooge government.”

    The group said in a statement said it received an invitation in late August to visit the United States, but had put off a decision until the deal was finalized.”

    A racist US administration can’t negotiate for actual peace. Ours won’t even pretend respect by using the established formality to symbolize respect. A narcissistic liar can only use people and try to steamroll them.

  99. 99.

    sukabi

    @trollhattan: 6. He lies about paying after he’s lied about not paying.

    Yes, if your 1st assumption is that he’s not lying, you’re trapped in his web of lies.

  102. 102.

    Redshift

    @Another Scott:

    Nothing like increasing our leverage by saying we really, really want to get out of there yesterday, and by the way, we want a deal by September 1. Genius!

    And I recall reading that the deadline was driven by Trump wanting to say he’d brought all the troops home by Election Day. Like The Wall, he realizes he doesn’t have any actual accomplishments, and he’s flailing more and more trying to manufacture one the closer we get to the election.

    I think “declare victory and go home” is what we should have done in Afghanistan a decade or more ago, but Trump can’t even do that without screwing it up.

  103. 103.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Cameron: me, too. The Iraqi president installed by Bush refused to renegotiate the status of forces agreement he had signed with Bush– my recollection is one of the biggest obstacles was the question of US personnel being subject to Iraqi law enforcement. Neither the US nor the Iraqi gov’t really wanted withdrawal, but the Iraqis were afraid to renegotiate because it would further stir up internal dissent, and the US didn’t want our people subject to trumped up charges to appease those same forces.

    Again, my recollection of almost a decade ago. I could be be wrong.

  104. 104.

    Baud

    @Betty Cracker:

    Democrats to Broaden Impeachment Inquiry Into Trump to Corruption Accusations

    NYT > Top Stories / by Nicholas Fandos / 6min

    Lawmakers plan to examine claims that the president dangled pardons to aides and that his resorts illegally profited from government business

  105. 105.

    Ruckus

    @Yutsano:

    nothing about this passes the test of smell.

    Oh I don’t know, I think it stinks very badly.
    I think we are in the phase of the drumpy administration when the shit has left the fan and is flying on it’s way to all of us. We knew this would be a disaster from day one and it has been. But anyone paying any attention knew it could only get worse. And it will, as numbnuts gets more and more desperate for a “win.” And given who and what he is, the more he pushes for a win, the worse it gets because he is incapable of anything that anyone would consider a win of any kind. He only knows one direction, and that is a spiral that gets him farther and farther in the hole. Money won’t help and he has none anyway, power won’t help him because he has no idea how to use it reasonably. And neither does anyone around him. He will keep digging as long as he’s conscious.

  107. 107.

    Zach

    This is like the millionth time Trump has swung for the fences and whiffed on some big gambit… or “deal” as he puts it (announcing the end of the war in Afghanistan on the anniversary of September 11th… the end of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan or whatever… would’ve been a big deal). You’d think he’d strike out at some point, but his reputation as a winner and dealmaker is teflon with his supporters.

  108. 108.

    Ruckus

    @debbie:
    His entire life the question to be asked has always been, “How can this stupidity be made worse?” That is the answer to what happens next. The trick is that it’s not just how can it be made worse, there are always lots of answers to that. It’s “How can we go from bad to worst in one step?” Going from sharpiegate to talibangate is how.

  109. 109.

    MomSense

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think the potential is there, especially if we track with how Adam Schiff frames the issue. The media has gone along with the trump framing that unless we have Putin and Trump in the library with the voting machines it wasn’t collusion. The problem is more than the illegitimate election. The problem is that trump is compromised and that every decision, every interaction could very well be on behalf of Russia. The unknown is to what extent we can make the media cover this issue with the seriousness it warrants. It’s very likely that they will only be able to discuss it in terms of how it plays in Scranton or some trump diner somewhere. I guess we need to figure out how to get our message out without counting on the media.

    BTW a man in Oklahoma was arrested the other day in a stolen car. He had a rattlesnake, whisky, and ur anium with him. I tried to post it yesterday but I think some word in the link pushed off the WP gods. I’m worried the wjngnuts are up to something bad.

  110. 110.

    John Revolta

    @Mary G: Yes, even if there weren’t some ideological or religious proscriptions,
    they’d be too wary of being thrown in Guantanamo when they showed up. And with good reason.

    Also, the idea of Trump negotiating some deal with the Afghanis is a joke. If he went to Afghanistan he’d end up paying 25 thousand dollars for lunch.

  112. 112.

    Baud

    My own personal theory is that Bolton told Trump that the Taliban would take over Afghanistan before election day if there was a deal, and that’s what scared Trump off of his “win.” I have no evidence to back that up.

  113. 113.

    Citizen Alan

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    cIt’s not the MAGAts who confuse me, or even the Wall St/Country Club types who close their eyes and think of the their portfolios, it’s the (apparently) 10-20% of the country who don’t approve of trump, but think impeachment is somehow a bridge too far, or wouldn’t be fair

    To be fair, “Trump is awful, but Pence would be worse” and “The Senate won’t possibly convict, so a failed impeachment would only hurt us in the 2020 election” are both rational positions to take.

  114. 114.

    Amir Khalid

    @John Revolta:
    I wouldn’t see any ideological or religious issues with meeting Trump at Camp David, unless he decides to serve bacon cheeseberders at meals.

  116. 116.

    John Revolta

    @Amir Khalid: What? Wendy’s ain’t haram? ‘Cause that’s what we serve around here. Still, “You can eat your fill of all the food you bring yourself”.

    I suspect that the Taliban may have some of their own rules above and beyond what’s in the Koran though.

  117. 117.

    Another Scott

    @MomSense: Linky (from July).

    The story says it is “powder” and “radioactive”.

    Smoke alarms have radioactive stuff in them. Without more information, it’s impossible to know how serious this incident is.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  119. 119.

    JPL

    @Citizen Alan: Totally agree, but how can we continue letting trump break the law? Nothing matters, if we do.
    Defense is not going to hand over information to the House, and I doubt they testify. Trump will tell them no, because of national security.

    or what Betty said more succinctly

  120. 120.

    WereBear

    I swear to god Ray, when she said choose the agent of your own destruction, I tried to think of the Marshmallow Man, but that play Rhinoceros popped in there. It’s okay. It’s a comedy.

  122. 122.

    WereBear

    @MomSense: BTW a man in Oklahoma was arrested the other day in a stolen car. He had a rattlesnake, whisky, and ur anium with him. I tried to post it yesterday but I think some word in the link pushed off the WP gods. I’m worried the wjngnuts are up to something bad.

    We sure don’t need that combination running around.

  123. 123.

    Jay

    Fighting going on in Kunduz, Takhar, Badakhshan, Balkh, Farah, and Herat. Taliban getting flushed but the message is clear: Whoever those old talibs are in Qatar, they do not control the war, suicide attacks or the tempo of the fighting. https://t.co/OSutCXV3in— Robert Young Pelton (@RYP__) September 8, 2019

  129. 129.

    mrmoshpotato

    @WereBear: What did a drunk, radioactive rattlesnake ever do to you?

    ETA – Read further down – a drunk, armed, radioactive rattlesnake

  132. 132.

    Gravenstone

    Easily manipulated fuckstain was easily manipulated. In other news, sun rise east, set west.

    Seriously, if no one in his little circle of sycophants didn’t see this coming…

  135. 135.

    cain

    @Zinsky:
    Just start spreading the word that the progressive caucus is doing interesting stuff, and then let all the members refuse to meet with the press citing security stuff. It’ll drive them crazy. Sometimes you have to manipulate the media.

  136. 136.

    Mike in NC

    In a day to two, this entire Camp David story might turn out to be yet another hoax. Trump is too lazy to read or prepare for meetings of any type, let alone one about ending a war. The part of him cancelling the meeting is probably just more bullshit to yell and brag about at pep rallies.

    The same could be true for the time he claimed to have called off airstrikes on Iran after planes were launched: while it never actually happened, it’ll sound good to the base who thinks he’s some master negotiator and brilliant leader.

  137. 137.

    Another Scott

    Cheryl may have already seen this, but for the rest of us. TheBulletin on Project Pluto and Russia’s nuclear cruise missile:

    […]

    Edwin Lyman, acting director of the nuclear safety project at the Union of Concerned Scientists, recently contextualized Merkle’s assessment. In an email to Defense One, Lyman noted that at the time, “nuclear weapon states were still engaged in atmospheric testing, [so] there wasn’t a whole lot of concerns about releasing additional radioactivity into the environment.” Attitudes have obviously changed since then. Moreover, Lyman points out that “to characterize radiation releases in terms of ‘grams’ is misleading. Chernobyl released only a few hundred grams of iodine-131 yet it resulted in thousands of thyroid cancers among children.”

    Beyond that, if it were ever deployed, the Project Pluto missile would fly “at near-treetop level at three times the speed of sound,” according Gregg Herken, a Cold War historian who wrote about Project Pluto for the April/May 1990 issue of Air & Space Magazine. This “flying Chernobyl” would not only create a deafening roar of 150 decibels but also produce a lethal shockwave—not to mention the wake below the missile, which the red-hot reactor would also probably scorch.

    It’s almost shocking, then, that the project continued for seven-and-a-half years before people realized that the environmental and health-related problems would, in turn, lead to political problems. First, where would one test-fly a nuclear reactor? If a test in the Nevada desert went awry, it could end up wreaking havoc on an American city. One bright idea was to use a tether. Another was to conduct the test over the Pacific and, at the end, ditch the reactor into the ocean. Even in those earlier, happier days of the atomic age, it’s unlikely that government officials or American citizens would have approved of either.

    […]

    Brilliant!!

    :-/

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  138. 138.

    Bill Arnold

    @debbie:

    I’m beginning to think John Bolton is behind all of this.

    Why does D.J. Trump still put up with Bolton? Objectively, Bolton’s only successes have been in assuring foreign policy failures and in blowing up agreements. Is that what DJT really wants in his foreign policy? At least he’s not Secretary of State.

  141. 141.

    Bill Arnold

    @Sloane Ranger:

    How many more decades are they willing to fight?

    He doesn’t know much about the history of Afghanistan does he?

    That what makes the “Unbeknownst to almost everyone” bit especially amusing. He’s claiming knowledge that other people didn’t have, and probably lying or mistaken about even about it.

  142. 142.

    Ruckus

    @Bill Arnold:
    Bolton most likely tells numbnuts what he wants to hear. Which might be because while his area of stupidity is different, these two are peas in a pod and Bolton is most likely to play the sub to drumpie’s master very well, especially if it has any chance of working out so that he gets what he wants.

  145. 145.

    Mandalay

    Liz Cheney is getting eviscerated in her own twitter thread for this:

    Camp David is where America’s leaders met to plan our response after al Qaeda, supported by the Taliban, killed 3000 Americans on 9/11.

    No member of the Taliban should set foot there. Ever.

    The Taliban still harbors al Qaeda.
    The President is right to end the talks.

    She clean forgot to mention that Trump arranged the talks in the first place.

    We love mocking wimps like Graham and Rubio for being weak against Trump, but Cheney is just as spineless.

  148. 148.

    Mandalay

    @sukabi: From your link:

    The deal would have withdrawn 5,000 troops from the five bases in Afghanistan over 35 years.

    35 years!? There’s no way the Taliban would have come to Camp David for that.

  150. 150.

    Redshift

    @sukabi: Their story is at least consistent with what they’ve been saying, which is that they want an agreement with the US before they start negotiating with the Afghan government (or have a ceasefire with them.) The idea that they’d agreed to come and meet with both at Camp David is an obvious lie.

  151. 151.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mandalay:

    The deal would have withdrawn 5,000 troops from the five bases in Afghanistan over 35 years.

    A drawdown of 140 troops/annum? That should be doable.

  152. 152.

    Another Scott

    @Mandalay: There must be a typo somewhere. FTFNYT:

    KABUL, Afghanistan — The United States would pull 5,400 troops from Afghanistan within 135 days of signing an agreement with the Taliban, the American special envoy told Afghan leaders on Monday.

    That pullout would be the start of what is expected to be the gradual withdrawal of all 14,000 United States troops that could end America’s longest running war.

    […]

    Mr. Khalilzad has not shared those details, but Western officials have previously suggested the timeline for the full withdrawal of American troops would probably be 16 months, if the Taliban meet certain conditions.

    How anyone could think that a sensible agreement could be quickly cobbled together without the elected Afghan government not even being at the table is beyond me.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

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