If you heard about the CDC testing guidance yesterday and thought WTF, well, here’s why:
(CNN) A sudden change in federal guidelines on coronavirus testing came this week as a result of pressure from the upper ranks of the Trump administration, a federal health official close to the process tells CNN.
“It’s coming from the top down,” the official said of the new directive from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
The new guidelines raise the bar on who should get tested, advising that some people without symptoms probably don’t need it — even if they’ve been in close contact with an infected person.
Previously, the CDC said viral testing was appropriate for people with recent or suspected exposure, even if they were asymptomatic.
It makes sense, if your goal is to provide cover for the Trump administration’s massive failure on testing. Maybe not so much if the objective is to prevent more Americans from getting sick and spreading the disease.
Trump and his toadies have made the calculation that they can get a dead-cat bounce from the economy if everyone goes back to school and work, and identifying outbreaks early stands in the way of that strategy, so they just tweaked the testing guidelines.
Has anyone seen Fauci? Last I heard, he was recovering from vocal cord surgery. No, really.
Southern universities are learning the hard way what happens when you don’t have robust testing protocols in place.
Sister Golden Bear
Reposting from downstairs as not to distract from the Kamala Harris thread.
Paging Adam Silverman… Teen, who was both a police cadet and reportedly had ties to right-wing militia groups, was arrested after two protestors in Kenosha, WI were shot dead last night. Video shows the police on scene letting him escape, as well as prior to the shooting thanking the militia members for being there and giving them water.
Fauci is definitely recovering from vocal cord surgery. He was supposed to speak with students at my college (his alma mater) in a couple of weeks and has postponed to later in the semester.
Sister Golden Bear
@Sister Golden Bear: More detailed account of the shooting the police’s interactions with the shooter.
I’m only hearing about it right now, but WTF indeed.
This may be the point where Dr. Fauci should resign. Should he really stay and continue to give the Administration his imprimatur if they’re gonna pull shit like this?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Seriously, they waited for Fauci to be incapacitated to pull this crap?
This is flat out wrong advice. It will be up to state and local officials to ignore it and do what they know is right. Sorry about Florida though.?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Kent: “Idiots” is what I am thinking too. Lack of testing isn’t going to change the death rate.
The CDC needs a ‘Trump’ font. Any policy printed in the Trump font should only be read by individuals who have pledged personal loyalty to Donald Trump.
@Kent: Why would they test for what their Dear Leader called a hoax?
Fucking idiots, indeed!
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Sure it will. Just not in a good way.
I looked at the JPL coronavirus website where they show each state for case, percent positive, and testing rate.
Mississippi has the highest percent positive, and I think the lowest testing rate. 1/3 to 1/4 the rate of other states. Mississippi is also highest nationwide on the ‘new cases/100k population’ 7 day avg.
@MattF: Is there an orange font that makes English look like Russian? Ya know, with Dump being a traitorous, orange, Soviet shitpile mobster conman and all…
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: But they’ll die of pneumonia, not COVID.
except anyone who gets anywhere near dear leader gets tested.
@mrmoshpotato: It’s a blend of Cyrillic and Sharpie.
@Sister Golden Bear:
When police welcome armed ‘militia’ and are hostile to unarmed protesters, they’ve taken sides and are just another gang. That’s the point where defunding really might be the only good option.
That would have to be in conjunction with the formation of some new law enforcement entity more directly responsible to the civilian elected officials, because having a police force really isn’t something you can do without. It’s just that some police departments may be beyond reformation.
They’re creating Potemkin statistics to go along with the fairy tale they’re putting out at the RNC. We’re already seeing clusters galore here in NC and the number of cases (if they test for them) will start to rise again after a bit of a falloff. We’ll probably also see similar increase for kids going back to elementary, middle and high schools in places with in-person instruction. Many, if not most, of those will be asymptomatic, so of course they don’t want to test for asymptomatic carriers. They’ll comfort themselves that a vaccine will come along and bail them out so people won’t see what transactional monsters they are.
@MattF: Sounds good to me.
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: You have to ask?
Don’t mind me. Setting cookies on a new browser . . .
So if only people with symptoms get tested, won’t that drastically increase the positivity rate and make Trump look worse?
Where are the people of principle in all these institutions?
Do they all have the same savior complex? “I am so important, I am staying in the way, keeping worse things from happening?”
You know what would stop all this? Sunlight. When you are pressured, say so. Give up your job, do what’s right, and keep some dignity.
It’s not just the institutions that have failed us. It’s the people in the institutions. Starting with Robert Mueller.
I’ve been unable to follow any of this (Kamala’s event today, Kenosha, etc.) because there was a work emergency that woke me up at 5:30 AM and it’s only calmed down 6 hours later. That said, let the OT commence:
Little known fact: Until the invention of the pregnancy test, nobody ever had any children.
@Baud: Shhh, don’t explain their mistakes to them.
Trump further signaling his control over the govt. CDC and FDA both providing bad guidance. Trump campaigning from the WH.
@WaterGirl: That’s what Chris Hayes was arguing years ago. Our inability to hold institutions to account has let them run wild. They are increasingly places where bad actors go because it’s safer to cheat and steal from inside the institutions than from outside of it.
That’s got to be pretty near the top of the Dem agenda if we win. Turn norms into laws, and start prosecuting.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
And it was all obvious all the way back in April this shit would happen. I guess football (and that sweet student housing cash) is just too important to some people
I’ve heard of families with kids in HS moving to other states just so their kids can play football. I can’t imagine the mindset of people willing to uproot their lives just so their sons can play football. There has to be some “living vicariously through their children” to that
Laws are for the little people, don’t’cha know? Especially the little people on the ‘wrong’ side from their perspective. If a GS-9 organizes a Biden fundraiser, they’ll come down on him/her like a ton of bricks.
Gin & Tonic
Easy to say, hard to do. Not sure about Fauci, who’s older than dirt, but if you have a mortgage and kids in college, that’s a heavy lift.
The Moar You Know
The CDC’s credibility is finished, as is the FDA’s. Which, of course, was one of the goals.
@MisterForkbeard: There were no cops around when he shot two of the people.
@Sister Golden Bear: Wearing latex gloves. He left he house intending to shoot someone.
Kenosha police are fucked. Nobody should ever trust them again. Tear the PD down and start over. Have the mayor call the gov to request state support and disband the PD tonight.
The protesters are now going to come out armed, and who could blame them for that response.
Timing of this announcement for schools and college communities is so bad (and suspicious).
@MisterForkbeard: Here’s the URL – it hasn’t started yet.
@lowtechcyclist: A Biden AG can indict them after they’ve left office. They may think that everything now is free and clear because Barr has their back, but that’s now how it works. Statute of limitations for federal crimes by default is 5 years.
@Martin: What does wearing latex gloves have to do with planning to shoot someone? I’m pretty sure it was after he had shot one person but the video I saw shows him on the ground and, I think, the guy who died grabbed the barrel of the AR but he hung on to it and fired. There second guy took a round in the arm. I’ll say it again, do not grab the barrel of a weapon and try to wrestle it away from someone unless you have no choice.
The prime driver for Trump Admin’s pressuring CDC into reducing testing isn’t idiocy, it’s pure callous sociopathy – they don’t really care that better testing is a strategic necessity toward containing the CV pandemic, or to accurately track infections, they only care that more testing will produce higher numbers and reinforce the public impression of their failed management of the crisis. It’s only idiocy if actually resolving the COVID pandemic was among their prime objectives, as opposed to fraudulently selling the notion that it’s already well on its way to resolution.
Of course, their tactic of suppressing accurate tracking and information only works if they actually do succeed in bamboozling the public before the election into the impression that COVID is receding and with it, the economy starting to recover and re-bloom. Doesn’t matter to them that if they succeed in selling this impression and manage to eke out re-election, that over next winter and spring the actual results disastrously aggravate the pandemic and economic decline. They will have four years to consolidate their power relatively unconstrained by the rule of law and further undermine the possibility of future democratic elections. Winning and power is what matters to them.
@Kent: That, or literally trying to explode the pandemic as hard as possible using every and any means at their disposal while denying everything.
Talk of treason has meaning, folks. Trump can be stupid and narcissistic, but he is not in control here.
You ask, do we have a Putin that wants to point and laugh? Or do we have a Putin that wants to crush this country and kill vast numbers of Americans, leaving the rest demoralized and battling insane QAnon terrorist actions, against the backdrop of an infrastructure that has been intentionally sabotaged in every imaginable way as hard as possible?
I see the latter. Pisses me off. I want that to FAIL. Just because he wants it doesn’t mean it will happen. But we must consider the idea that the Executive Branch is fighting against America as hard as it possibly can, having escalated past the point where it felt a need to maintain plausible deniability. They’re on to ‘implausible denying’, also known as stalling for time while placing bombs and killing as many as they can.
Colleges are back in session, with varying degrees of in-person classroom work. According to the NYTimes front page interactive map (you may want to check it out even if you hate the NYTimes) North Carolina State at Chapel Hill has 835 COVID cases already. Indiana University, where my nephews attend, has 12. I do not know the difference in their approach, or social environment, but that is a big difference.
I would think the loaded gun is more of a tell.
Didn’t you say the shooter had already shot someone?
@WaterGirl: Let me make sure that I am understanding what you are saying. You would have everyone at the CDC resign at this point? I presume you would also include State and Justice. Where would you draw the line and say that it is okay for someone to continue working for the US government?
@cmorenc: No. Winning is not plausible at this point. Destroying the country is now the objective and that is what drives their actions. This is not politics at all anymore, it’s warfare.
@Gin & Tonic: I’m not talking about every worker who does the day-to-day stuff.
But if you can’t do the right thing when it’s hard, then you shouldn’t be in a position of responsibility. And you certainly don’t belong anywhere near the top of an organization where where you do has more impact than the bottom line for some private company.
@Gin & Tonic: Preet was surely making a pretty penny, and had a wife and 2 kids to support.
He did the right thing, and a whole ton of people could have, and should have, done the same thing.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
I had a grown middle aged man tell me the other day that, in response to being told that the FDA was bullied into approving convalescent plasma treatment for COVID-19, “people in the government can’t be bullied. You watch too much press”.
I mean, what else was there to say? I’m not sure it was naivete as much as this guy drinking the koolaid. I just can’t believe a grown man actually said that.
It began when he was coming through my checkout line yesterday. He made a comment about getting tired of having to wear a mask. Which is fine, everybody is. I said “yeah, everybody is.” Then he said it won’t be much longer; a vaccine will be approved.
I responded by saying it probably wouldn’t be until a year from now when things get back to normal and that it would take time to manufacture and distribute a vaccine. Guy had an answer for everything:
Vaccine will take time?
The military will jump in and speed everything up and clinical trials are already underway.
He said “convascent plasma has shown a significant degree of effectiveness”.
I objected by saying that there have been no randomized trials.
He apparently didn’t understand what I was saying and brushed it off with, “science has all sorts of new techniques” or something to that effect
Just magical, delusional thinking.
That “you watch too much press” comment made me think I was talking to a MAGAt
@MattF: Might I suggest Comic Sans?
@The Moar You Know: Yes to your first point. Yes to your second point. And yes to your third point.
People have been drawing the roadmap to authoritarianism – starting at least 4 years ago – and the good people at the top were apparently paying no attention.
Or they certainly weren’t willing to stand up and do anything to prevent it.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Ordinary, I’d say not to leave any prints on the gun/bullet casings. But this guy was publically shooting people
There has been a series of failures at both the CDC and the FDA Right from the beginning and they are not only at the political level, aka the hacks the orange fart cloud selected to “lead” these organizations. It started with the test that had to be invented in the USA in order to be good enough to be used in the USA, the failure to allow tests other than the PCR tests or the insistence on other tests being as sensitive as the PCR test.
There were people in the professional ranks who had their cranium so far up their rectum that they could not see what was important.
Hopefully in Spring there will be a reckoning not only at the top but also in the professional ranks. pour encourager les autres.
@Baud: I think so but I’m not sure. There are people chasing the dude and one guy punches him from behind. People do yell that “he shot someone” so probably.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): There are pictures of him in junior police outfits and I think he’s stupid enough to think what he did was ok.
Yup. Drain the swamp.
@Martin: Yeah, but Hatch Act violations are basically punishable by:
In a Biden administration, the first two won’t apply because they won’t be working for the government any longer. And Pompeo, Melania, others aren’t going to care about a measly $1000 fine and they can whine about being a victim.
They decided to break the law because the consequences can’t be high enough for them to matter.
@raven: Thanks for that. Like I said, it’s been a nasty day and I was relying on some things I’d seen here and (sadly) on FB.
@Omnes Omnibus: I answered your question at #44 before I read your comment at #42.
These people anywhere near the top of these organizations have absolutely no excuse.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
A bit, but there’s also the thought that the big payday will come in 2 to 4 years when the kid gets a fat NFL contract.
Trump continues his war on science, expertise, and reason:
Kyle Rittenhouse — the teen charged with murder after shooting 3 Kenosha protesters with an AR-15 — was obsessed with Blue Lives Matter and appeared ‘on edge’ before shots rang out.
Cue the “Lone Wolf” song.
Need advice from any breadjuicers. Decided to bake bread. Put in oven to rise. Forgot about it for 3.5 hours. Am going to bake as experiment. It’s a the easy rustic no knead bread. Was supposed to rise for an hour.
Should I just skip the second rise at this point?
OK. sounds like this Kamala event is just about to start.
Interesting question for the lawyers: There’s no way to make these retroactive crimes, right? They might be able to change the punishment for existing laws (2 weeks in the slammer for a Hatch Act violation would be nice), but I don’t know if that’s feasible either.
We need to get Luntzian about our language when it comes to Trump. Don’t say “Donald Trump did this”, or “Donald Trump thinks that”. It’s “Donald Trump and the Republican Party”. Donald Trump and the Republican Party failed us with the COVID epidemic. Donald Trump and the Republican Party are fomenting white supremacist violence. Donald Trump and the Republican Party are systematically dismantling the USPS. Donald Trump and the Republican Party have conspired with an enemy state to subvert our elections. And so on. Never mention one without the other. God knows they’re helping us along with that “platform”, but they’re drowning and we need to throw them some anchors. Chain them together so they go down together.
Suggest it to your Congresscritter as well.
Gin & Tonic
@WaterGirl: Preet Bharara was fired.
@Baud: There is a picture on this page of a guy with a skateboard folded over, I think he’s one who died. The other guy, with his hands up, was shot in the arm. I saw other vid of him getting first aid.
@Gin & Tonic: Yes. But he knew damn good and well that doing the right thing – not having private conversations with the President – was going to end in losing his job.
My point stands.
We can bring them in under the legal principle of One Bad Appleus: All criminal offenses, no matter how small, warrant summary execution by the police.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Doesn’t mean he didn’t think he could get away. He came in from IL into a community where likely nobody would recognize him. So long as nobody caught him on camera and he didn’t leave prints, how would they find him? And he fled right back home.
I’m not suggesting that a 17 year old militia member is going to have a watertight plan, but I’m at a loss why he’d otherwise be wearing latex gloves. They’re uncomfortable to wear for an extended period of time, he’s clearly not concerned about Covid. Why’d he put them on?
@MisterForkbeard: No, there is a Constitutional prohibition against criminalizing conduct after the fact.
I’m not seeing anything to get outraged about in the revised CDC guidance. It seems very similar to the COVID-101 guidance and information I’ve seen elsewhere. Testing needs to be done understanding the details of when it’s best to be taken, when it’s best to be re-taken, what the results mean (and whether the person is infectious or not), etc.
To be clear, I have no doubt that CDC is under tremendous pressure to find ways to minimize the numbers. But I think they are pushing back as best they can.
I haven’t seen how the CDC press people are spinning this – maybe they’re saying things different from the web pages.
@Martin: Even the militia dudes said there was something off about this kid.
@Omnes Omnibus: Right, but what about changing the punishment for an existing crime? That’s not criminalizing after the fact, it’s an administrative decision on how to handle the existing crime.
IANAL, so maybe there’s not a distinction there.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
I could understand people moving for sports if their child is one of the elite few who have a chance to make it as professionals. I could even imagine it if they see it as their child’s best chance of getting a college education. People move all the time to let their kids take advantage of the best schools academically; it shouldn’t be a surprise if people who think their kids have a real shot athletically do the same. Doing it during a pandemic when participating in sports is a real health risk seems a little more out there, but especially with football some health risk is already priced into the decision to participate.
@WaterGirl: Everyone needs to answer the question: Am I doing more harm than good by remaining? It can be a tough question to answer.
Some lighter, more positive news:
Boris Johnson gave a speech in a school, and the books lined up behind him (probably by the school librarian( made for interesting reading. They included The Twits, Betrayal, Resistance, Fahrenheit 451…
@Roger Moore: Justin Fields would come back here if he could (and hadn’t played the bullshit race card he did to get the transfer)
I believe those were her qualifications for the FDA job.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
More like cue “It was self-defense! A mob was chasing him! It was justified!”
That’s what’s the Twittertron comments are saying on the video
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Omnes Omnibus: on the very specific question of a vaccine and the very specific case of Dr Fauci, I vote he stays where he is and can keep an eye on what’s going on
@MisterForkbeard: It is changing the nature of the crime. The person would be subject to the penalty for the crime at the time the crime was committed.
@MisterForkbeard: That’s not really the point, at least for someone like Trump. For Trump, you just need permission to dig, because you’re guaranteed to find more serious crimes if you do.
For Kellyanne, yeah, probably not, but the Trump spawn, Jared, etc. Start with Hatch Act, go for in-kind contributions and other violations of election law, coordination with Kanye’s campaign, and so on. And any 2016 collusion should still also be fair game – if they move quickly.
@Martin: Not just prints, gun powder residue.
The Pale Scot
Mike in NC
Mike Dense set to appear tonight and lie his face off about the great success of the pandemic task farce.
Got an email that stated that none other than Erick Erickson — is he still around? — just knows that black men are going to rally around Trump because something something. Who can possibly deny that EE has a finger on the pulse of the African-American community?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
You’re probably right. He probably didn’t think this through. It’s just hard to imagine not getting caught on camera these days
Yep. That’s been in the news a bit here in the Portland area. A couple of top prospects headed south with their families to play football. Also one to play basketball.
That’s not a new thing though. When I taught HS in Waco Texas the school I taught at was a football powerhouse that went to two state championship games in the past decade. The first one we narrowly lost to a team quarterbacked by a kid named Baker Mayfield.
During the time I taught there we had several kids show up from other states, mainly to play football. The funny thing was that two of them were quarterbacks and didn’t end up playing much because they were actually worse than the local boys despite what their psycho dads thought. Uproot your family and move to at Texas football factory so your kid can sit on the bench. Hah. During the 9 years that I taught there, every single starting QB over that period went on to play major college ball, as did a ton of other players. For a while I couldn’t turn on the TV on Saturdays without seeing ex students of mine.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Typically ut’s to prevent leaving powder residue/DNA/prints.
As you say though, shooting people in public would seem to cancel that need.
It is possible this man is not a tactical genius.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Pudgy lil fuck is going to be in the slammer for a good bit either way.
Normally if I knew someone was wearing gloves and carrying a weapon I would think it was to lessen gun residue evidence. But given the circumstances of the shooting, who knows? He’s seventeen should be at home doing homework, not carrying a military weapon.
@Omnes Omnibus: Stand your ground in Wisconsin?
@patrick II: I carried one when I was 17.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@The Pale Scot:
I’m guessing the long-term effects of climate change and the ultimate survival of humanity didn’t figure into Aleksandr Yakovenko’s or Putin’s plans did they? I wonder how they’d respond when confronted with that?
Because destabilizing advanced nations and the global order? Kind of makes it hard to coordinate global actions to address global problems. Just saying.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): A full free-ride scholarship is big bucks. And by their junior year in high school, parents can make a pretty good guess at whether or not a scholarship is a possibility for their kid. Also, by that time the parents and the child have spent a lot of time and effort to make that scholarship happen.
Personally I don’t think that it’s a wise choice, but I can see arguments for it.
@Omnes Omnibus: I agree with what you’re saying.
There should be a million people in government publicly running around “with their hair on fire” not trying to privately how awful he is.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): If you are a low income black family, it’s entirely possible that looks like the best path out. Not that moving is generally in the cards for a low-income family.
Around here it’s pretty routine for people to move a neighborhood or two over to min/max the supposed best elementary/middle/high schools. It’s a $50K or so commitment in closing costs in order to move from the #20 ranked HS in the state to the #18 ranked HS. It’s bananas.
And I hate to have to tell them that college admissions is increasingly based on local context – so the uni doesn’t care that they went to a better HS – they care if you were the top students in your HS. So by doing this all they’re actually achieving is increasing the competitiveness by consolidating all of the type-A students/parents in one place. Had they stayed in the slightly worse ranked school, their odds of getting into a given school goes up.
In short, if you want your kid to get the most admissions offers, go to a lower-achieving school. The goal of the state unis is to even out the quality across the public school districts, but parents keep not hearing that message.
@raven: Spent my 18th birthday in basic. Boy, did that suck. :)
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): They have enough money to be among the survivors. That’s their response.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Granted, but it worries me that I see that response so much. And social media is great at spreading misinformation and propaganda as we’ve discovered
This and the Q-Anon stuff scares the hell out of me. What if some day they become the majority?
I cant help but think that there is a direct line between Dylann Roof and 17 year old Johnny Gun Jr Murder – and the LEO that would treat each of gently, unlike the innocent Black Americans each killed or hoped to kill. The sickness that is endemic in our fellow Americans and their desire to kill based upon melanin makes no sense. None at all.
@raven: And you too should have been home doing homework.
@raven: I’m sure every swinging dick and bouncing tit in that outfit wants the press to know they TOTALLY had doubts about the guy who almost landed them in the shit after he got caught. Yes.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): They won’t. Their intensity is because they’re losing. So long as we can keep voting and stop them from cheating or silencing us, we’ll win.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
What good will money be in a world where several regions become inhospitable to human life where hundreds of millions of people live? Do they think that will be good for the world economy? And what kind of life would be worth living under those conditions? Russia won’t fare better than anyone else. No one will be untouched.
Sustained droughts, forest fires, extreme weather will become the norm. Hell, they already are now. Climate science thought none of this would happen for another 40-50 years
@raven: He showed up with a gun and looking for trouble.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
I think you’re right but the stories I hear about young white men becoming radicalized scare me sometimes
It’s just that it’s always portrayed as the employee searching his or her conscience and coming to some arrangement they can live with, and that’s not really the issue. The issue is they have an elaborate, written code of conduct they have to follow and it includes various duties to report:
It’s 97 pages long. It covers every imaginable ethical dilemma. They are not, actually, supposed to be making individual, subjective decisions on what reaches their personal ethical code limit. They’re supposed to be following these rules.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Do something so they don’t. We have agency here.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Your sense of long-term is different that someone like Putin. You’re young and long-term is 50 to 70 years. Putin, 30 maybe, after that he’s dead and don’t care.
Probably too late to this party, but maybe helpful for the next time:
Punch the dough back down, let it rise in the loaf pan(s) until doubled – set a timer for yourself, sez the voice of sad experience – and then bake.
@Kay: Okay, I report unethical conduct and, because the people in charge are Trumpies, nothing happens. Now what? That’s the dilemma.
ETA: An individual’s conscience is always involved.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Alexander Vindman, Miles Taylor, Sally Yates, Mary Trump, Michael Cohen, Marie Yovanovitch, John Bolton, Fiona Hil, Jeff Flake, William MacRaven, James Clapper, even James Comey and Omarosa. There’s no shortage of people telling us how awful he is. The problem isn’t that people don’t know, it’s that a solid third of the country doesn’t give a fuck .
@Omnes Omnibus: He crossed a state line to make some trouble because he thought he was defending his fellow cops. I bet because he was a junior patrolman the Kenosha police treated him with velvet gloves. Then he ran back home because he might get in trouble and the Illinois police took him into custody for murder and illegal gun possession. Now the self-defence MAGA idiots are out. Pretty sure he’ll try to claim it now.
@H.E.Wolf: I had a similar issue on Sunday.
I went ahead and baked, and the bread fell in the middle. Your advice is good. I should have punched it down and started over, but I was too impatient.
I don’t see any exceptions for “I’m adding more value by staying”. I mean, arguably anyone can say that. I certainly hope you’re adding more value by staying in your job than you would no longer coming to work. Thus, they set standards so people don’t have to struggle with all these questions:
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
I see your point, but I think a lot of the bad shit may happen within his lifetime too. He will live to see it. And he has children for god’s sakes. He should do the right thing for them if nothing else
You may not like to hear it, but no one should be carrying military weapons in civilian life. Being seventeen just makes it worse. And being seventeen and thinking you are the hero who is going to hold off the dark-skinned people hordes makes it even worse. The fact that will eventually and inevitably happen is why no one should be carrying them.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Growing up, if there’s one thing I’ve learned is that you can do your best, but sometimes your best isn’t good enough and you still lose. That’s what I’m afraid of
The Moar You Know
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): Goku, you’re not the only one worried about that. Those people scare the shit out of me. It’s a fucking religious cult combined with multiple hardcore conspiracy theories and that’s a really bad combination.
Yes, but there are always grey areas, even when they enumerate all that stuff.
A colleague once said that “There are things that are illegal, and there are things that are ILLEGAL.”
It’s really hard to be a whistle-blower when one sees other whistle-blowers not being protected by the same system of rules and norms that list all of the norms and rules.
But the people on top didn’t report anything, even after they told us they were having these anguished dilemmas about staying or going. They don’t have a choice. They have to report and get fired or these rules don’t mean shit. It’s a “shall”. There’s nothing after the “shall”. Doesn’t matter at all if the next guy is worse. They’re not given that discretion.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): You seem to be confusing him with someone who has a conscience.
@RobertB: I went in on my 17th! Last Train to Clarkesville.
@patrick II: And there is some reason you think I don’t want to hear it? What the fuck is that?
@Martin: Hey, I got my GED two months before my class graduated and it gave me a great foundation for my dissertation!
Oh, it is. But we all should be clear that these are (now) suggestions and if a person decides it’s better for the country if they disregard them, they may do that.
This is the Comey approach. He was not actually supposed to be making the (bad) decisions he made. They made it objective and rule-bound so we wouldn’t be as vulnerable to good or bad decisions. We’re not supposed to be relying on if they’re “good”. I don’t know if they’re “good”. We rely on the rule.
@Yutsano: What “fellow cops” he ain’t no cop.
@raven: I was under the impression you had somewhat less choice in the matter…
@Subsole: Or got them in a crossfire.
@Kay: Right, we’ve established that the people at the top of this administration are pieces of shit. What about the next level down? Or the one below that?
@Martin: Rap or Go to the League
@Subsole: Got in a little hometown jam. . .
Donald Trump says his decisions on rule-following are good for the country. Can everyone do that?
So we’ll just have to trust that individuals are acting in our interest. They say they are! Who could question that, other than their giant rule book, I mean.
So I’d pick my gittar with a great big grin
And the money just kept on pourin’ in
But then one day my Uncle Sam
He said (sound of 3 footsteps) “Here I am”
“Uncle Sam needs you, boy
I’m-a gonna cut your hair
ah-Take this rifle, kid
Gimme that gittar” yeah.
@Kay: So then you come down on the everyone who doesn’t resign is complicit side of the question?
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): They’ll be dead. The check is your problem, suckers.
More seriously, I was lying awake this morning while insomnia kicked my ass, and I started wondering.
Pretty much everyone alive today lived their lives under the threat of nuclear annihilation.
Telling them climate change will destroy the world may not have any impact on some people because they grew up just kind of expecting the world to be destroyed…
Dunno. Just an insomnia thought…
@H.E.Wolf: Thanks. I let it rise about half the time and baked. Somewhat gummy, but edible. I factored in how hungry I was. Decided to bake because out of bread. Thanks again for the advice. I’m now curious if that would have improved, but not going to waste a batch of bread dough.
@Kay: I’m saying it’s not black and white.
95%** of the people at CDC had nothing to do with the revision of the testing guidelines announced a couple of days ago. How many of them should resign?
** – 98.3732% of all internet statistics are made up.
I understand your talking about processes and the need to follow the rules, and Comey was the perfect example. But that doesn’t mean that everyone else in the FBI was somehow complicit. Or even that the people who did know and understand what he was doing was complicit. It doesn’t follow at all.
Someone who has dedicated their lives to public service should not have to walk the plank when a monster is their boss. Sometimes, that’s what the boss wants… (Look at all the Inspectors General that have been forced out. Are we better off now that they’re all gone?)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Milwaukee NBA players sit out play-off game in protest
Well, we don’t have to decide. It’s in the rules. This was not left up to their individual discretion. The choice they’re making is not to “stay in their jobs”. The choice they’re making is not to follow these rules. The result of that choice is “keeping their job”, but they’re now outside the rules.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I am proud of them.
@Kay: Did you ever agree to a continuance because someone said he was ill and then find out that he wanted to go fishing? Did you report the guy when you found out?
I’m not saying resign. I’m saying if they have ethical guidelines or rules that precludes this and includes a duty to report they have to do that. They don’t get to control the outcome. There’s no part of that that reads “unless something bad happens after reporting”. Or not. But if it’s not then they’re outside the rules.
@Kay: I think you’re reading too much into these rules.
It’s never a one-step thing.
Hypothetical – Suppose I think that the head of my agency is making an illegal decision. What do I do? Well, I can notify my boss (who is several levels below the agency head); or I can complain to the IG; or I can go outside the system (member of Congress, the press, NextDoor, etc.).
If I do those things and nothing happens, am I forced to resign?
Am I complicit if I do not resign?
Are others complicit if they don’t resign?
No. Maybe I misinterpreted the situation. Maybe the others checked and figured that he made an abominable decision, but one that wasn’t illegal or against his/her discretion in the office. Maybe other, non-nefarious, things are going on. Maybe the agency head wants to go into some sort of arbitration to present his side or appeal any adverse ruling or whatever.
I’ve done my part. I brought the concern to others, they decided what happened – not me.
You get the idea.
There’s rarely a “you violated Rule 23 Subsection 123.34(b)2 therefore you are OUT!” situation. It’s always a process. Even when it seems clear as day to normal people.
Good civil servants shouldn’t have to walk the plank for having horrible bosses.
One thing that worries me about the Kenosha shooter is that we have basically been training kids to do this with all those active shooter drills. Studies have shown that cops who are tased during training are more likely to used their taser in the field. I am sure that the active shooter drills have the same effect on an admittedly small number of children.
One of the hard truths about policing and criminal justice is that they are just making this shit up as they go along. No double blind studies, no research on what is actually effective, just whatever some asshole dreamt up and decided to teach to everyone else. By the time something is discovered to be counterproductive, it is completely entrenched, with a lot of money on the line, and an active lobbying arm.
An example: grief counselors. This was thought up by someone who had experienced PTSD. He did not have psychology training, but started volunteering and training volunteers to do grief counseling after traumatic events. No research, just lots of positive stories on the evening news.
After 9/11, researchers realized that this was the perfect test case for looking at grief counseling. What did they discover? That while it may help those who have risk factors for PTSD, most people recover through their own resilience. And grief counseling interfered enough with those people’s natural grief cycles, that you ended up with more PTSD than would have happened without the grief counseling. It turns out that having people who actually witnessed an event share their stories and recollections of people who had near misses dramatically deepens the trauma for the near miss population, which is much larger than the actual witnesses.
Defunding the current police and designing a much more modern and research based criminal justice system is what we need.
As am I.
@Another Scott: As I understand it, Kay is arguing that the rules are there for a reason and one shouldn’t substitute one’s own judgment. I don’t think anyone disagrees as a general matter. I think that you and I are saying what happens if someone follows the rules but result that should happen does not follow. What does a civil servant do then?
@raven: We’re all buddies here in the 1387th Buddy-Fuckers. Yessir.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Houston and OKC join the boycott/strike
@Subsole: Incoming. . . . .
@Omnes Omnibus: +1
There may indeed be some talking past each other. The Rules are part of The System and when the rest of The System is being corrupted, it doesn’t automatically follow that The Rules are the only option to make things better. (“Good Trouble” and all that.) Nobody drawing up The Rules was seriously considering a situation where the Executive would refuse to honor his/her oath and all the rest of the bad things we’ve seen the last 3+ years…
(There’s probably some Animal Farm or 1984 analogy that can be inserted here. And “the Constitution is not a suicide pact”, also too.)
A Ghost to Most
Those of us who grew up in the white nationalist environment are not nearly as confident in this assessment as you seem to be.
James E Powell
I believe I’m on record that your life might be worthy of a ten-episode Netflix series.
Lying to advance your own interests is one thing, but Trump is just constitutionally incapable of not shooting himself in the foot. His constant attempts to keep his numbers low are literally why his numbers are so high.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@raven: I shouldn’t have giggled as hard at that as I ended up doing…
@Kay: I’m a Federal employee, and I don’t get what you’re saying.
Suppose decisions are handed down from above that look hinky to me. I look up the rules (I haven’t given them a look since new employee orientation a couple decades back), they tell me who to report it to, I do, and nothing happens.
Now, do I stay or do I go? The rules don’t cover that. That’s strictly a personal decision. I must follow the rules with respect to anything suspicious I see while I’m still there, but once I’ve reported everything I’ve seen, and I’m out the door and am not seeing anything anymore, they no longer apply.
An agency where everyone quits in protest will be an agency rapidly refilled with partisan hacks. I completely agree that the senior ranks of federal agencies should be pushing back hard, but there have been a lot of people quitting the federal government lately as the Republicans have gotten more hostile. On some level the work has to get done, even if the leadership falters. If they all quit in protest, there will be nobody for Biden to call on when he takes over. We cannot have a civilian workforce that turns over every time the party in power changes.
And people have stood up to Trump’s agenda. They’ve been fired. After a while, all you’re going to be left with are the true believers.
And most of the things we’re talking about don’t even fit that category.
“I disagree with CDC guidance…..”. Complaint noted, but where is the violation in that instance?
@Jinchi: I didn’t say what you are attributing to me in that block quote.
@Omnes Omnibus: Sorry. Copy-Paste was left over from an earlier comment. I’d meant to use this one:
There’s this huge completely unfounded assumption in that.
The employee who reports is not responsible for the outcome. Why would anyone think they would be? They don’t have to get to “what if I report and nothing happens?” All they have to do is what they’re required to do. Then their part is done.
For the higher level employees they could report as a group. They’re not going to fire or target all of them!
The one and only reason the whistleblowers are so exposed is because they are alone. Why was Vindham all by himself? It’s an entirely different scenario if it’s 9 Vindham’s, all at the same time.
The whistleblower blows the whistle. Then his or her role is complete. They don’t determine the outcome and no one in their right mind would hold them responsible for it.
These are smart people. Surely they figured that out.
@raven: Ah, that makes it OK. Right, gotcha.
I have a friend who is a dentist. Dentists are mandated reporters. He reported suspected child abuse. They interviewed him and he gave a statement. He doesn’t know what happened after that. It was substantiated, it wasn’t substantiated, someone was convicted, whatever. All that is out of his hands and no one holds him responsible for it. He did his duty. The rest is not his.
@Kay: Walking away now. We are obviously talking past one another.
@Martin: “So long as nobody caught him on camera and he didn’t leave prints, how would they find him? And he fled right back home.”
You’re not an aficionado of detective fiction, obvs. ?
How would you answer that question yourself? Giving your opinion directly may bring a discussion closer to your point of interest.
Isn’t that exactly what DeJoy recently did at the USPS?
True, there was no reporting issue involved. But that’s irrelevant. He was willing to fire two dozen high-level managers all at once.
@Aleta: I already did.
The rules may tightly limit their agency in terms of what to do as employees, but they certainly don’t deny them the agency to choose to cease to be employees if they decide they don’t want to stay.
The is premeditated mass murder for the perceived possibility of GOP electoral gain.
It won’t even work, which makes it premeditated mass murder by the GOP for no gain, except LOLZ for those so inclined.
Meadows needs some personal destruction. He is an evil man. And the GOP is literally running on LawAndOrder in this election.
@rafah: I remember a few sci-fi authors who used the meme of “he died of heart failure” = “he was killed/murdered, but his heart *did* fail, and that lack of a heartbeat was what convinced us he was gone.”
So, obviously, I’ll imagine their deaths will be recorded as heart failure, not pneumonia.
@WaterGirl: I agree, and have felt that way since Comey handed the election to Trump. The Republican caucus was clearly bullying Comey, and he let it happen, rather than taking a stand and refusing to follow the corrupt demands of a corrupt caucus.
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): I believe that firing most guns puts residue on your hands, which can be detected for a time afterward. Rubber gloves would (I assume – but I don’t know for sure!) prevent that.
Of course, given how the story played out, it might not be either of those things.
@Kay: I suspected that might be the case, and that’s one thing that *really* bothers me about the Ukraine debacle. There was one, repeat one, single, solitary person who spoke up and said “this ain’t right”. It seems that there should be dozens who were obligated to step up, and deliberately failed to do so.
@The Moar You Know: What’s more scary is that they’re making Trump out to be a hero, the sort of hero where you can put up with the corruption and lawbreaking, and instead say “but he’s protecting *children* and chasing down *monsters*”.
The Republicans don’t see any danger to this, obviously – they’re willing to let their followers think that 20 judges made ridiculous mistakes in applying the law, to murder an innocent woman, because it made them more attractive to their followers. And they’re still trying to get Donnie “one day, like a miracle, it just disappears” Boy a second term, rather than pointing out the obvious “Qanon is bullshit, and ya’ll are stupid for not realizing it.”
Yup. They’re politicizing the decisions, and lying about it.