The defense presented today in former President Trump’s second impeachment trial just spent the past two hours inciting more violence. It was designed to make Trump happy by attacking the Democrats, making them the bad guys, and confirming that he is the victim. Therefore, both he and his supporters are right to be aggrieved. The other purpose of this defense is to further incite Trump’s supporters by going all in on victimization through these video clips and montages. Those video clips and video montages were specifically produced to be immediately transmitted through pro-Trump/MAGA and QAnon social media and on the various pro-Trump/MAGA and QAnon boards. I’m sure that if Dan Scavino, who has always been Trump’s conduit to and coordinator for the most extreme pro-Trump/MAGA supporters on social and digital media, was not involved in creating them, he was quickly given them to seed them and disseminate them throughout social and digital media.
The defense presented this afternoon is that Trump didn’t incite violence, his supporters aren’t violent, and we’ll prove it by inciting more violence. This is a defense right out of the techniques and neutralization. Shortly after the 6 January insurrection at the Capitol I produced a threat assessment for what could be expected going forward, this excerpt deals with techniques of neutralization:
This social behavioral pathway for behavior was delineated in the 1950s by Sykes and Matza and is called Techniques of Neutralization. Their intention was to clarify the social behavioral pathway that leads to delinquency, deviance, and crime. They posited that neutralization allows one to drift into crime, deviance, and delinquency. Or in the case of the 6 JAN 2021 insurrection that we are interested in: sedition, rebellion, extremism, terrorism, political violence, and possibly treason.
The techniques of neutralization are divided into five types of neutralization: 1) denial of responsibility; 2) denial of injury; 3) denial of victim; 4) condemnation of the condemners; and the 5) appeal to higher loyalties. The first three justifications all deal with denial. They allow the offender to rationalize his behavior as outside of his control. He or she is not really hurting anyone. And even if someone is hurt, they may have deserved it. The fourth justification allows the offender to invert the knowledge of her wrongdoing back upon those criticizing it by asserting that the condemners are hypocrites, do equally bad things, or are out to get the offender. Finally, the fifth rationalization allows for the justification of behavior on the basis of loyalty to one’s group rather than one’s society.
These five types of neutralization are found in every single one of President Trump’s speeches, off-the-cuff remarks at press gaggles, extemporaneous remarks at his rallies, and the formal responses he makes after he and/or his supporters do something illegal and/or violent. On Wednesday 13 JAN 2021, President Trump once again asserted that not only was there nothing wrong with his remarks at the “Stop the Steal” rally that preceded the violent insurrectionist attack on the Capitol, but that these remarks have all been formally reviewed and determined to be perfect and appropriate by unnamed third parties (essentially using deception and logical fallacies – appeal to authority, third party credibility and handoff – to exonerate himself and his supporters). As the attack on the Capitol was ongoing on the afternoon of 6 JAN, President Trump released a video asking his supporters to cease their attack, but also told them that the election had been stolen from him and them, thereby justifying their anger and actions.
In these remarks, you can see almost all of the five types of neutralization. President Trump has repeatedly denied responsibility. He denies there was any real injury; he has yet to issue any statement regarding the deaths that resulted from the attack including the murder of a Capitol Police officer. He denies the victims; because they are not his supporters so they do not count. He turns the condemnation of his and his supporters actions back on those making them. The classic Trumpian example of this was after Heather Heyer’s murder at the hands of a white supremacist at the pro-Trump, white supremacist, and neo-NAZI Unite the Right March in Charlottesville, VA. In both his initial attempts to make a presidential statement and his walk back of that statement, he tied himself into rhetorical and logical knots as he insisted that there were good people on both sides. Both sides being the pro-Trump white supremacists and neo-NAZIs and those that came out to counter-protest against them. And in all of his remarks he appeals to higher loyalties: the Make American Great Again movement and concept, an invocation of the Constitution, and invocations of the real America and America First. He invoked the MAGA movement and concept in his remarks in Texas on 13 JAN as an appeal to a higher loyalty.
The techniques of neutralization are where the social behavioral rubber meets the road of the social behavioral definitions that drive the extremist, white supremacist, neo-NAZI, and neo-fascist actions of the insurrectionists that stormed the Capitol on Wednesday 6 JAN 2021 in an attempt to overthrow the US Congress, prevent it from certifying the 2020 presidential election results, assassinate Vice President Pence and Speaker Pelosi, and overthrow the American constitutional order. Almost fifty years of purposeful, implicit, and explicit changes in the Republican and conservative definitions promoting, retarding, and neutralizing behavior have borne a bitter destructive fruit in Donald Trump’s techniques of neutralization aided and abetted by the algorithms of social media platforms. The result of that fruit’s perverse blossoming is a uniquely American insider threat composed of the Republican, Republican leading Independent, predominantly white and nominally Christian supporters of President Trump combined with yoga moms worried about the safety of vaccines or processed food or gluten.
Unfortunately, the techniques of neutralization are not limited to just President Trump and his base of supporters who have decided that if they cannot control the United States government then they will tear it apart. Before Wednesday 6 January had given way to Thursday 7 January, and since then, Republican Senators Hawley and Cruz, Republican House Minority Leader McCarthy, Republican Freedom Caucus members like Jim Jordan and Matt Gaetz, and conservative news media personalities like Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Brian Kilmeade, and Rush Limbaugh have all used techniques of neutralization to signal both solidarity with President Trump and his supporters and threaten Democrats and everyone else in America who is not a Trump supporter with more low intensity warfare and political violence. These statements warning Democrats not to hold President Trump responsible or accountable are not only self-serving as it seeks to move responsibility off of their own support for his factually inaccurate claims, disinformation and deception about widespread election fraud in the presidential election, the lie that he won by a landslide, and the lie that the election was stolen from him, Republicans, and his supporters, they are also classic examples of techniques of neutralization. They deny responsibility, they deny real injury, they condemn the condemners, they appeal to higher loyalties, and they contain implicit and explicit threats. They are the basic template of all domestic abusers: “if you don’t forget what happened and let it go, we can’t move on and it will happen again and then it will be your fault, again”.
All of these appeals to not hold President Trump responsible and accountable are threats against Democrats if they do. They are all couched as President Trump’s 70 million plus voters are angry, upset, outraged, and feel cheated, so if the Democrats hold President Trump accountable those angry 70 million Trump voters and supporters might just do something violent again. Explicit threats have been made to Republican members of the House and the Senate regarding their and their families’ safety if they vote to impeach or convict President Trump. A Republican member of the House from Utah, who voted against impeaching President Trump for the second time on Wednesday 13 January 2021, revealed to MNBCS that a death threat, referring to him as a traitor, had been taped to his office door at the Capitol the following day. Given the newly increased security measures at the Capitol, in addition to the COVID-19 pandemic public health measures, which have further reduced who can be and is in the Capitol at any one time, the only person who could have left him the threat is another member of either the House or Senate, a member of their staffs, a member of committee staffs, a member of the Capitol Police, a member of the staff that maintains the Capitol, or someone who was escorted in by a member of the House or the Senate. This is the ultimate insider threat. And it, like the similar threats issued – including by members of Congress themselves, it is: nice Congress and Republic you got there, be a shame if something were to happen to it…
You can see this dynamic in American Conservative Union President Matt Schlapp’s tweets:
If they continue w sham impeachment and very real SDNY and NYAG investigations of Pres Trump. They will make him stronger and push him to run again in 2024 as it will be the only way to make it all stop. If they want rid of Trump stop pursuing and persecuting him.
— Matt Schlapp (@mschlapp) February 12, 2021
You guys won. If you spend the next year w these politicized prosecutions you will rile us up unify us and lose the Congress. And for Trump if he has no legal rest he will come back hard either as a candidate or a force. My advice is leave us alone and govern. Miss you! https://t.co/YdLeW11jRo
— Matt Schlapp (@mschlapp) February 12, 2021
There’s a reason they went heavy into Democratic elected women, women of color, and people of color calling to fight back or resist or protest. It was to clearly show that these angry black and brown men and women are the real threat to America and the real Americans, not Trump and his supporters who are overwhelmingly white while also appealing to the 1st Amendment. They were denying injury and victim, while condemning the condemners, and appealing to a higher loyalty. This is impeachment defense by incitement and the real point of it wasn’t to give the Republican Senators a fig leaf of cover to vote to acquit, which they were going to do regardless of what was said over the past three days. The real point of it was to further threaten, terrorize, and incite to domestic terrorism, insurrection, and revolt Trump’s extremist supporters. Democratic senators and representatives, other Democratic and liberal movement leaders, as well as news media figures like Chris Cuomo and Nicole Wallace will be targeted as a result of the defense presented today. It was yet again another expression of the real Trump Doctrine: “I, Donald J. Trump, will be treated fairly…. or else!”
Open thread!
Just Some Fuckhead
So three insightful days followed by three inciteful days.
MomSense
@Just Some Fuckhead:
cleverly stated.
I’m only listening to these video montages, but the scoring of the alternate clips is really striking in audio.
ETA Did I achieve the coveted second?
Chyron HR
Imagine going out in public with a name like Matt Schlapp.
Central Planning
We know the republicans aren’t paying attention at the trial… Marco Rubio Says He Got His Highest Candy Crush Score During Impeachment
BruceFromOhio
“You will rile us up” more than already? Color me surprised, these shits get riled up at dust particles.
Fuck your feelings, Schlapp.
MattF
This sounds right to me. In particular, noting that this is not projection. Trump’s lawyers are going back to basics by inciting more violence.
Betty
Useful analysis, Adam. Thank you.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Central Planning: my god, he saw Hawley’s performative sullen adolescent act and thought, “I can top that!”
Come on, Florida Dems!
Medicine Man
The 64k question is – what happens now?
Is there greater political violence ahead? Do they continue to profit politically, depending the crisis? Or does this blowback on them?
BlueGuitarist
Thanks Adam!
Do you think Barr’s resignation may have been related to Trump seeking to use on 1/6 the DOJ Bureau of Prisons & CBP force Barr assembled for the Lafayette tear gas and Bible photo op?
LuciaMia
Well, damn! They brought Castor back?
Adam L Silverman
@Medicine Man: Yes, there will be more violence. And yes they will continue to fund raise off of it.
trollhattan
@Chyron HR:
That mug is certainly Schlappable.
CarolDuhart2
Pretty depressing, but the question really is what do we do in response? Backing down does nothing-we can’t even trust that Donald would honor that sort of thing anyway. If you are like a lot of people, this sounds much like abuser logic-don’t hold me to account and I will let up. We know how that ends-and the only way it does is to escape the abuse or fight back against it.
So we will put up the fences and keep them up-and try to vote out as many of the abusers as we can do so, and come up with other measures of defense and even offense.
Adam L Silverman
@BlueGuitarist: I think he knew something was coming, some explicit details and some implicit signals he’d picked up on, and wanted himself way out of the way.
germy
And they’re liars:
Benw
So they’ve moved on from the Chewbacca defense to the Obi-won defense. Assholes
Timurid
So Trump is now a lock for the 2024 GOP nomination. I expect him to announce his campaign within a few days of the trial ending. Any other Republican who bothers to run in 2024 will be grifting and/or auditioning for the VP slot. I’m envisioning a debate stage in late 2023 with Trump facing half a dozen ‘opponents’ who spend the whole time arguing with each other over which one likes Donald the most…
The Moar You Know
@CarolDuhart2: Well, these people are abusers and they are demanding the right to continue and escalate their abusive behavior. And if you’ve ever dealt with a real abuser, and I know some of you, mostly women, have, this eventually turns into a “it’s me or you, buddy” situation.
So you wait until they’ve fallen asleep, pour gasoline on the bed and set it on fire.
Not really joking.
The sad thing is in order to really fight these people and win, we will have to become people that most of us have no desire to become…i.e. fighters.
Aziz, light!
Tim McVeigh missed my mom in Oklahoma City by three days (her visit to the SSA office on the previous Friday). Recently I stopped reporting for duty to my job in the Portland federal building, where I never stopped wondering if we were safe from a similar attack. Now I wonder if the authorities are going to fully surveil the domestic terrorists in our midsts. Will they be able to intercept and quash the next attempt by extremists to invade another capitol, murder a public official, or otherwise strike a blow for their cause?
Most importantly, will this effort be compromised by people in the FBI and local law enforcement who are sympathetic to if not closely allied with the bad guys?
schrodingers_cat
@Timurid: We are assuming that he will be healthy enough to run in 4 years time. I have my doubts.
Just One More Canuck
@Chyron HR: at least his name isn’t Dick
Cheryl Rofer
The idea that Trump will run again for president in 2024 depends on quite a few assumptions.
District Attorneys in New York and Georgia are looking into his financial affairs and attempts at changing vote numbers. His banks are throwing him to the winds.
He will be 78, which is about what Biden is now, but his health is nowhere near Biden’s, and he may yet have delayed effects of covid.
I read mixed analyses of the situation in the Republican Party. It appears that some Republicans don’t like attacks against the government in an attempt to overthrow an election and are leaving. I saw a number of 140,000. We may yet find the dregs of Trumpism as a rump Republican Party.
Other things will change too. A successful way out of the pandemic and a real infrastructure program could change a lot of people’s minds.
So yeah, Don. Go ahead and threaten to run. I’m gonna wait a bit before I think that’s anything near real.
debbie
I know I’m in the minority, but I just don’t see anything in Trump’s long history, behavior, and attitude that would have imbued him with the level of forethought and planning needed for those five elements. Far too much thinking is involved.
Timurid
@schrodingers_cat:
If he’s healthy enough to stand in one place and speak semi-coherently for 15 minutes at a time, he’ll do it. His narcissism demands it. He must reclaim the Presidency, property he believes to be his alone, and claim revenge against the person who took it from him. His other choice is to act as kingmaker, but his vanity probably won’t let him accept a proxy. How damaging to his ego would it be for him to accept the proposition that Ted Cruz or whoever could beat Biden when he couldn’t?
Xavier
Democrats used the same language. Also, those cheerleaders yelling fight fight fight at the football game Friday night were definitely calling on people to storm the Capitol.
Burnspbesq
At this point, the person most likely to derail Trump appears to be the Democratic DA of heavily Democratic Fulton County. She has a slam-dunk case on three charges including two felonies, a jury pool that’s relatively unlikely to be tainted by MAGAts, and no apparent downside to going forward.
Do it, Madam DA.
JPL
@Cheryl Rofer: Why wouldn’t trump say you can’t try him for crimes committed while he was president. Before the courts hear the case, trump will be on the road holding rallies and destroying our democracy.
Of course, it’s a bullshit argument, but all his arguments are.
The Moar You Know
@Timurid: by no means. Right now is the last time that anyone outside of the most dedicated followers is going to hear from him. He’s been deplatformed and nobody with any clout or market reach is going to give him one.
He is old and in shit-poor physical condition and if he’s alive in 2024, something which I frankly doubt will be the case, he’s going to be up against some extremely motivated and far smarter contenders for the post. Haley just made her opening move today. There will be plenty of others.
Adam L Silverman
@Timurid: I’m not sure he’s a lock. There’s a lot criminal and civil liability at the Federal and state level he’s facing. Also, he’s in terrible physical condition and is a survivor of a severe case of COVID. And his family, on both sides, has a history of degenerative neurological disorder.
But he is going to be an ongoing concern. As will Greene and Tucker Carlson and several others. Some of whom we may not even be tracking yet.
JPL
@Burnspbesq: Because of age, I opted out of jury duty in Fulton Cty. Normally I would serve, but the last time I was called, because of a snow/ice storm, I had a difficult time getting home.
Miss Bianca
Ugh. Nasty clear-headed way you have of putting things, Adam.
Seriously, I’m stealing your last paragraph to unload on the MAGAts who surround me who. like clockwork, are winding up to meep endlessly about Maxine Waters, Kamala Harris et al who are the REAL inciters, here! What is White America to do except lash out with extreme violence??!
BlueGuitarist
@Adam L Silverman:
Thanks, Adam.
It seems the photo op or Portland would be more like a rehearsal for 1/6 than the main purpose of assembling that unit; that once Trump tested it in action he would want to use it 1/6.
Similarly seems unlikely that anyone with direct knowledge will honestly describe Michael Flynn’s brother’s role in the Pentagon delay in response to the emergency at the Capitol, though initial lying about his presence suggests cover up.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Sort of the defines Trump since his teens, doesn’t it?
I don’t know, but all this bluster from a pack of physically and mentally incompetent middle age guys is really just getting silly. What’s Schlap there going to do, fall somebody?
different-church-lady
Once again the threat is, “Do as we say, or Trump will do exactly what he was going to do no matter what you did.”
Steve in the ATL
@JPL: I was in the Fulton County courthouse last week for the time in several years. It was…weird, and as soon as I got home, I showered and washed those clothes. Everyone was masked, but the place had a lot of people in it from all over, so it seemed very risky to me.
Like most lawyers, I would love to be on a jury but know that any sensible lawyer would strike me. Thus I may end up on a jury if Lin Wood is litigating!
Gretchen
@JPL: I’m not sure he will hold many rallies now that he has to pay for them himself.
zhena gogolia
I hate the Republican congresspeople so much.
Really? After they tried to kill you? Really?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Timurid: You maybe assuming a lot, remember Trump lost every election the last four years. The only reason he got into office was with the EC. Others have argued Trump’s ego won’t let him risk another public humiliation like that.
I can’t see him running unless Trump knew the election was fixed so he was sure to win, and no one is going to do that for him.
debbie
So much for subtle techniques.
zhena gogolia
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
Никто? Вы уверены?
Gravenstone
@Timurid: Trump will be an invalid, or dead by the time 2024 rolls around. His mental deterioration is accelerating, with the physical close behind. And he is no longer in a position to get guaranteed gold plated medical care, no questions asked and many convenient lies told to cover for whatever is going on. Sure, he’s still capable of significant damage until he can no longer be used as a figurehead by his family and sycophants, but he isn’t invulnerable.
zhena gogolia
@Gravenstone:
I was just thinking how substandard his present medical care must be. His Dr. Vinnie Boombatz passed away, so who is taking care of him?
different-church-lady
I know he’s not going to be convicted. Nonetheless, the moment that happens, I’m still going to be convulsed with outrage.
Adam L Silverman
@Miss Bianca: Your mellow; I am here to harsh it!
Adam L Silverman
@BlueGuitarist: I wrote a post about this back at the time.
https://balloon-juice.com/2020/07/17/the-federal-police-operations-will-not-stay-in-portland/
debbie
@different-church-lady:
I want something bad to happen to him, if only to see Ivanka’s ugly cry one more time.
M31
and with the 30-year campaign of vilification of Hilary Clinton (FTFNTY, etc.)
I agree, except there will be some grifters with Trump’s ear who tell him it is fixed, and anyone who tells him otherwise will be banished
Adam L Silverman
@debbie: That’s why I ended the post with this:
Viva BrisVegas
Yes, if those cheerleaders were pointing at the Capitol. No, if they weren’t.
Context, it’s tricky isn’t it?
Timurid
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Not saying he wins the general. He’s very likely to lose. But the GOP is making it clear that he still owns their party.
JPL
@Gretchen: His ego demands it, and he does have money available from fundraising. It wouldn’t surprise me, if he charged those who wanted to attend though. We’ll see.
Adam L Silverman
@Viva BrisVegas: Just because I once wrote a Concept of Operations during a war-game to mobilize the cheerleaders as an insurgent force that we could direct at a hostile nation state that had invaded one of our allies…//
different-church-lady
@Adam L Silverman: It’s like both teams are playing the long game. This is just another battle in the endless war for the soul of the country.
Mart
@The Moar You Know: what to do? I live in a deep red county in a deep red state. Thinking of registering as a rethuglican for cover. Have been thinking about my ex neighbor, a police sergeant, at their Halloween party around Romney/Obama election. I dressed as Romney’s dad, Governor of MI, loving auto union’s and related. Officer neighbor said they ought to take me out to the shed and whip my liberal ass. Everybody laughed. Realize I am surrounded by a lot of potentially violent enemies.
Jim Appleton
Adam L Silverman
@different-church-lady: From an earlier portion of the same assessment I excerpted in the post:
debbie
@Adam L Silverman:
I know. It’s his usual thuggish M.O. all over again. This is one horrible Groundhog Day to be stuck in.
Martin
I don’t understand that question regarding bail. I’m guessing that’s some kind of Fox News whispering.
Barbara
Heaven knows I have been wrong about predicting Trump’s behavior — I really thought he would go to Mar a Lago and not come back after Christmas, complaining all the way about fraud — but I don’t think he is going to run for president in 2024. I think he wants to raise money as if he is going to run for president, and I think he wants to be a kingmaker who gets one or more of his next generation of family members in a position to keep the political grift going, most likely Ivanka.
Also, Nikki Haley is out there trying to walk back Republican fealty to Trump. I don’t think anyone really has a road map for what is going to happen.
trollhattan
@Aziz, light!:
An advantage, such as it is, to infiltrating white supremacist organizations is that law enforcement is chock full of white guys who’ll fit right in. Not snark, just facts. Detective Chad Winthrop probably doesn’t have a good shot at infiltrating ISIS.
Old School
@Martin: I got the impression the defense attorneys didn’t understand it either.
Adam L Silverman
@trollhattan: Depends if he’s from the Banu Winthrops that roam seasonally between the Rub al Khali and southern Syria…//
trollhattan
Nikki Haley has that unfortunate book she recently published laying out her Trump love in type on paper. Pity.
trollhattan
Drat, I forgot all about them!
Martin
This questioning period is going to be so weird. It’s going to solely reflect the cloakroom conversations between Senators and using the two councils as pawns to advance arguments they believe will help sway colleagues one way or another.
That Collins/Murkowski question to the defense is pretty fucking telling though.
geg6
@Barbara:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman: Thank God and the great state of Colorado for edibles, is all I got to say…//
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Martin:
what question is that?
Old School
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What did Trump do to stop the violence at the Capitol?
A: The House didn’t investigate that at all!
Martin
It’s also really telling that the House managers appear to have a 5 minute response prepared for every anticipated question, and a clear individual responsible for it.
This is how government should work. You plan, plan, plan, plan, plan.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Old School: Interesting, more than I would have expected from Collins, especially.
and that strikes me as a very weak answer
Just Chuck
@Timurid:
So in other words, he’s out.
WaterGirl
@Martin: What questioning period? I had to turn it off about 5 minutes after noon. When does questioning start? I see questions showing up on the screen.
?
Looks like they already started. What time?
Martin
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: When did Trump learn about the attack and what were his actions after that. Asked to the defense. Effectively signaling they never addressed that, and that even if you put aside the incitement argument from the managers, the lack of a response is worthy of impeachment. And the defense whiffed on the answer.
Martin
@WaterGirl: Started about 15 minutes ago. Lasts 4 hours.
Old School
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Full question: When did President Trump learn about the breach of the Capitol and what actions did he take?
SiubhanDuinne
I love Stacey Plaskett. “Cavalry. Cavalry. Not Calvary.”
Martin
The debate over witnesses comes after. I really, really hope Dems push for witnesses. I don’t think it changes the outcome, but we need this out in the open as much as possible.
Martin
Bad faith question designed to evoke bad faith answer.
caring & sensitive
@Steve in the ATL:
Interesting that you are eligible. In B.C. lawyers are prohibited from serving on juries
Old School
Regarding witnesses, can Democrats still push for Trump to testify?
JPL
@geg6: Nikki Haley was clear about her respect for trump, and only feels that he has lost his way the last few months. The president was always a louse, and for her to forget about the other 3 years and ten months is appalling. She’s playing both sides.
The news media has highlighted only a small part of the article in Politico.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
including one about trump and National Guard, did he approve their deployment and if so, when?
Steve in the ATL
@caring & sensitive: that’s the case in some places; it varies by jurisdiction down here south of the border
WaterGirl
@Martin: Thank you. Do we call a doctor if it lasts more than 4 hours?
Also, while I was trying to set record on Tivo, I heard a one-sentence question to the defense, with an answer of “No”. what was the question?
Raven Onthill
I think we have to regard the January 6 attack as the first battle of a civil war. This is past sedition, this is actual treason. Trump and his associates organized a group of people to assault the Congress to prevent the certification of an election. That is levying war against the United States. (I suppose it could be argued that this was not technically a levy.)
Whatever Democratic elected women, women of color, and people of color did or didn’t do, it wasn’t treason. It wasn’t even sedition.
I am not in Congress. I am not an elected official. I have no need to be politic in my language. What Trump and his associates did on and leading up to January 6, 2021 was treason and I will say that. I hope other people will join me.
Old School
@WaterGirl:
It was yes, not no.
Q: Does a politician raising bail for rioters encourage more rioting?
A: Yes.
debbie
@SiubhanDuinne:
I knew we could depend on her!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
this fucking guy (Scott, not Nichols)
I was just thinking the other day, I’m a political junkie, and I don’t think I have ever heard (second term) Senator Tim Scott speak. I have heard Mike Rounds, Steve Daines, even Cindy Hyde Smith. I can’t picture Tim Scott in my mind’s eye. This bullshit is what he speaks up for.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Are they even capable of shame?
James E Powell
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Romney’s Q4 & Q5 are good ones.
ETA – OMG! Stacey Plaskett I love you!
Just Some Fuckhead
I don’t think “yeah but what about black people” is the slam dunk argument Republicans think it is.
Geminid
@debbie: Roger Stone has the brains and the ruthlessness to do this for trump. With others, Stone may have orchestated this insurrection, like he helped organize the Russian effort to subvert the 2016 election after “dropping out” of the trump campaign. Stone was in DC that morning, and there is reporting that he’s been initiated into the Proud Boys. trump learned long ago how to let others do his dirty work. And he and Stone know how to tell each other stuff without being explicit.
SiubhanDuinne
@James E Powell:
Isn’t she terrific? I’m just in awe of her; have been all week.
Warblewarble
Has Nikki Halley called on Trumpthuglican Senators to convict tRUMP, thought not.
SiubhanDuinne
Are we going to see this van der Vlee character stroke out on live tv? Or punch Castro in the nose?
Elizabelle
@Martin:
Agree. I would love to see witnesses.
Because the audience is the American people, and not just the craven GOP Senators sitting in judgement.
RandomMonster
He’s intellectually as masturbatory as his name sounds.
Almost Retired
@Steve in the ATL: Yeah, attorneys can serve on juries in California, too. And I would love to. But every time I’ve been called, I’ve been dismissed before the dog molesters and the visibly stoned.
Just Some Fuckhead
@SiubhanDuinne: Van Der Veen looks like a career alcoholic. He reminds me of my abusive step-father who was a dry drunk, quit it all for Jesus.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
SiubhanDuinne
@Just Some Fuckhead:
He is an extremely angry man. And I agree, I’m sure he has an alcohol problem.
Ruckus
@Cheryl Rofer:
I agree.
He is unwell, mentally and physically. His narcissism rejects any concept that he’s not 1000% in both areas, while reality is always there, him liking it, observing it or not. He has never cared for himself and as someone who has reasonably and isn’t much younger than him, I can say that it is usual that the 70s is a time of rapid decline for a lot of people, and the rate of decline is due mostly to base health/genetics. In the last 4 1/2 yrs a lot of people I’ve known have passed, 12 at last count, only one of them older than me, by 1 yr, and none of whom were in as bad of shape that he’s in. And by bad shape, that’s the things we know, weight, Covid, ignorance…
James e Powell
I was in class this morning, what’s he talking about doctored evidence?
zhena gogolia
@Martin:
That’s good.
Old School
Bernie Sanders asks if Trump won the election. I’m interested to hear Trump’s lawyers response
Update: They punt. He says his personal opinion is irrelevant.
Brantl
@debbie: It’s pretty easy on a low-cunning level.
Old School
@James e Powell:
There was a picture of the House managers preparing their case. In the picture, there is an incorrect date on a tweet. (It was fixed in their actual presentation.)
He also claims showing a five second clip is doctoring the 30-second clip.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
made it about three minutes, till the guy who looks like one of the bank goblins from the Harry Potter movies asked for Bernie Sanders’ question to be read a third time
Adam L Silverman
@Old School: His response is to attack Sanders.
Martin
Awshucks McRamble is pulling a Thirsty Yellington up there.
Almost Retired
Are the Senators’ questions getting under Van der Veen’s skin, or is shouty angry asshole his only mode? Or both?
Martin
@Old School: Also worth noting he didn’t dare show the 30 second clip to correct the record even though he had plenty of time to do so.
Elizabelle
Van der Vile.
What a nasty piece of work.
Gretchen
@Martin: Kamala Harris raised bail money for BLM protesters, which on Fox are always characterized as rioters.
Martin
@Gretchen: Ah, I figured there had to be some 4 cushion Fox bullshit explanation for that.
Martin
Jimminy Crickets!
Get off Biden’s lawn, sir!
Martin
@Elizabelle: Oh, he’s not Awshucks McRamble. White republicans are starting to look alike to me.
James E Powell
Mr van der Veen’s arguments are aimed at the audience that thinks Tucker Carlson & Sean Hannity are smart. They will be very effective with that audience.
Just Some Fuckhead
Van Der Weenie’s faux outrage is his ploy to give Republicans an out on conviction. He’s basically mirroring them.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Wait, what? someone, a United States Senator, asked a question about trump’s view on Israel?
Adam L Silverman
I wish someone would ask Van Der Even if he’s drunk or been drinking and request the President Pro Tempore to have the Senate Sergeant at Arms administer a breathalyzer test.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Just Some Fuckhead: given how invested some of them are in the myths of the grandeur and dignity of the Senate, I could see him pushing someone like Murkowski, maybe Cassidy, back toward the convict column. (If we’re making predictions, I think Murkowski is 60/40 to acquit, Cassidy 70/30) It may shore up Collins’ vote, since I kind of suspect being a Senator, borrowing that illusion of grandeur, is the only thing that gets her out of bed in the morning.
Gretchen
@Martin: defense repeatedly saying we don’t know things because House didn’t investigate enough gives Dems the excuse to call for witnesses.
Adam L Silverman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It was tied in to allegations that Trump tolerated, if not supported, anti-Semites among his base of supporters. It was a garbage GOP senator question intended to be broadcast on Fox, Breitbart, and social media.
Martin
@Gretchen: They don’t need an excuse. Pretty sure they have the votes if Dems want them.
MisterForkbeard
@Martin: What was the Collins/Murkowski question, for those of us who can’t follow along
ETA: And nevermind, I needed to read further down the thread.
Geminid
@James E Powell: Van der Veen is also playing to his audience of potential personal injury clients in eastern Pennsylvania. I read that he has a lot billboards up around Philadelphia. He has to pay for them, but this advertising is free.
Ruckus
@Raven Onthill:
I do. It was treason.
What he did was against the country and the majority of it’s citizens.
What he did was to suborn treason. And that is a treasonous act.
debbie
@Adam L Silverman:
Don’t forget Trump’s remarks to a pro-Israel PAC (can’t remember the name, but it wasn’t AIPAC or J Street): “You’re terrible people, but you have to vote for me.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’m convinced. On the other hand, George, he seems to be just the kind of person Donald Trump hires and keeps closest to him.
JMG
@Ruckus: Golf is the tipoff. I saw Trump play in a Pro-Am in 2004 and he had game, a good amateur who could keep up with the pros without embarrassment (means they’d only beat him by 10 strokes). But he was 57 then. Now he’s at an age where every year you lose at least a half-club length in distance. Believe me, I know this. He’s so vain and insecure, this natural loss is why he wouldn’t allow himself to be photographed on the course. There’s no doubt that if he had his 2004 game, he’d have had videos of each round posted on the White House web site. So he knows he’s losing physical ability.
debbie
@SiubhanDuinne:
Thank you. I never realized they were spelled differently. All I know is what I heard during lectures in Renaissance Art History!
Elizabelle
How refreshing. Trump lawyer did not need the question read again.
He probably worked with Cruz to come up with it.
Ted Cruz. Lindsey Graham. Mike Lee. Jurors who met with the defendant’s attorney in private.
debbie
Did Lee ever get his “remarks” stricken from the record?
Kelly
@Almost Retired: I have cousin that is a city cop here in Oregon. When called for jury duty his department expects him to show up for work in the afternoon following his inevitable elimination from the jury pool.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Geminid: When black rioters destroy your car in a riotous riot, call the law firm of Van Der and Ween.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nah, Van Der Ween is being their daddy. They are swooning.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@Mart: Move to a swing district and help save us all.
citizen dave
@debbie: If you’re talking about the other night when Lee objected to his own remarks the prosecution used from a news article–saying he never said them, I think the prosecution withdrew that whole thing. I happened to be watching a stream on youtube when Lee objected. Confusion ensued, with Leahy looking quite out of it (old). I turned it off for a couple minutes, when I turned it back on Schumer was saying it was being withdrawn, etc. And they recessed until noon the next day.
Gretchen
@Martin: yes, but they would whine about it’s unfair. But when defense whines that the managers didn’t bother to nail down the facts………
Geminid
@Just Some Fuckhead: “Did someone’s pitbull bite you? Hire a pitbul to fight for you!… Did some drunk driver put you in the hospital? Sic a drunken pitbull on the insurance carrier!…”
cwmoss
@Almost Retired: If I’m on trial for dog molesting, I probably want a few dog molesters on the jury.
citizen dave
@Raven Onthill: “What Trump and his associates did on and leading up to January 6, 2021 was treason and I will say that. I hope other people will join me.”
With you 1000%. I’ll never forget that a group of Senators and large amount of House members were quite willing to go along with a coup if events were going to roll that way. People need to be reminded of this often and for ever.
Patricia Kayden
Liar to the very end.
Patricia Kayden
@cwmoss: Heh.
debbie
@citizen dave:
Yes, that’s what I was referring to. Thanks.
debbie
Did anyone ask Trump’s lawyers why Trump waited so long to call in the National Guard?
Mary G
sab
@debbie: I think that was one of Romney’s questions.
Old School
@debbie: They asked why the Capitol wasn’t better defended, but I don’t believe anyone has asked about the National Guard.
Old School
@sab: Were Romney’s questions asked yet?
SiubhanDuinne
VDV’s entire face is a snarl.
Just Some Fuckhead
@debbie: Yeah, he started screaming we don’t know because the House democrats didn’t investigate that. He seems really angry Democrats didn’t make a better case his client is guilty.
Elizabelle
@Mary G: Yes. I love that.
The House managers have deployed Dead Scalia at least twice while I’ve been watching, and maybe more. (First day, and just now.)
Take that! Your hero Justice Scalia held that ….
Ksmiami
@BruceFromOhio: crush them like the roaches they are
catclub
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Doesn’t it depend on how many jurors they know they have fixed?
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: Van der Vile.
He is the personification of a serpent.
Someone you would not want to sit next to. Would just move to another seat.
Old School
The evidence didn’t even get sent to the defense lawyers until the day after they took over the case!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I couldn’t take much of Vander Veen on my TeeVee, but this looks pretty accurate from what I did see
Elizabelle
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: The crazed weasel! The opossum on meth!
Speaking of Kavanaugh, I am rather hoping the House managers at some point throw down some decision he’s ruled on, in support of their efforts. Would be a one-two punch, since Dead Scalia has already been invoked.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
I love your name for him. Van Der Vile. Using that from now on. But watching Jamie Raskin now, I realise I love his face. With all he’s been through, and the terrible, recent pain he’s endured — he has a happy, optimistic face. He loves life, despite its pain. Van Der Vile loves nothing. You can just tell.
Elizabelle
Van der Vile slips.
[Trump has] A higher standard …. oh wait, I meant to say “a higher protection.”
No mere fire chief, der
Trump.Interesting that he puts on his quiet professorial persona for “helpful” questions.
If I was a juror, I would be so grateful he brought up the higher standard. To which we hope to hold his client.
Elie
VDV couldn’t get the timeline of Trumps response to the insurrection by blaming the managers for not investigating. Well why didn’t HE know it? It was his client! He should have a clean timeline of Trumps actions. He has to protect his client right?
Elizabelle
“Most of you men would not have your wives with just one attempt at talking to her.” — Delegate Plaskett
LOL. Re the defense trying to portray Trump’s speech as a one-off.
Bill Arnold
“To litigate questions of election integrity within the system is not incitement to resurrection“
Clear as bell, too! :-)
Just Some Fuckhead
I guarantee you more than one Senator who votes against conviction will reference Van Der Weenie’s (faux) outrage. “Even he couldn’t believe the crap Democrats were alleging!” like Van Der Weenie is a neutral arbitrator.
Elizabelle
And now — lock her up! rears its head.
Question is pretty much “This precedent would put an unnamed former Secretary of State at risk of being impeached.”
LOL.
James E Powell
Hillary Clinton!!!
Just Some Fuckhead
@James E Powell: Finally, the one question that might get Republicans on board with conviction!
Elizabelle
Van der Vile just wanted the question with “Lock her Up” read again.
That question is not even dog whistling. But it’s a pure soundbite for Fox, should they choose to cover any of this.
Just Some Fuckhead
The dutch are usually better tempered than this. I bet his mom is irish.
Elizabelle
Where is everybody? (ETA: Hello there, JSF.)
Baud
This would be something if he can get it done.
Leto
@Elizabelle: I’m muting when Van der Vile and Co speak. No point in listening to that bs. They open their mouths and it’s the sound Jim Carrey/Jeff Daniels make out of Dumb and Dumb: “Want to hear the most annoying sound in the world?”
Old School
@Elizabelle: It’s getting repetitive at this point. There’s nothing new to talk about.
Baud
Leto
@Baud: well it’s not a scary moooslim looking to release his fellow brothers back into the wild to commit JEEEHAD against the peace loving white Americans. So of course Biden can do it… /heavyheavyS
Just Some Fuckhead
I think some of the reluctance of Republican senators to convict Trump is because deep down, they want the ability to kill Democrats if they have to.
Other MJS
Come see the violence inherent in the libtards!
bluehill
I guess the limit for what you can get away with if you’re rich, powerful and white extends beyond trying to overthrow the U.S. government.
Elizabelle
@Baud: Thank you. Will read that. Also appreciated your TIME magazine link from this morning.
I’ve enjoyed seeing Jamie Raskin and Stacey Plaskett. They’re both superb.
Baud
Goodman!
ETA: I see the next Marvel superhero.
Elizabelle
Q&As end. I wish we could have witnesses, though.
Elizabelle
Schumer proposes the Senate award Officer Goodman the Congressional Gold Medal.
Eugene Goodman is in the Chamber, and receives a standing ovation from everyone. Including
trump‘s attorneys.Old School
@Baud: I wonder if Officer Goodman knew he’d be getting the Congressional Gold Medal today. (Assuming it passes.)
Josie (also)
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Tim Scott is a Black Republican from South Carolina. ‘Nuf said.
Elizabelle
Ovation for all the Capitol Police members.
Cameron
@Elizabelle: Wow – this dreadful week might end on a high note.
Elizabelle
Adjourned until tomorrow.
@Cameron: Yes! We need a palate cleanser!
Congratulations Officer Goodman.
I hope the late Officer Sicknick also receives posthumous commendations.
debbie
@Elizabelle:
Hawley actually stood up? //
Old School
According to Wikipedia, Greg LeMond received the Congressional Gold Medal last December. I missed that.
Just Some Fuckhead
So I may have just solved this stimulus thing. Award everyone in America the Congressional Gold Medal for their heroic efforts during Covid. It’s 90% gold, worth a lot of money.
The Thin Black Duke
I don’t understand why some folks are thinking that Democrats are just going do nothing, wander aimlessly like a herd of sheep and wait for the Republicans to kill them.
Elizabelle
Switched off C-Span. Senators Romney and Jon Tester (Montana) exited together, chatting collegially.
Several reporters then chased after Romney, leaving Tester to make his way on his own, with, I think, an aide at his side.
bluehill
@debbie: He also took an oath when he was sworn in, but we know how much that means to him.
Just Some Fuckhead
@The Thin Black Duke: Probably a little late in this thread to start a fight. Maybe try the next thread?
Baud
Elizabelle
@The Thin Black Duke: Agreed. I see resolution and strength.
Geminid
@Cameron: Chuck Schumer is a shrewd guy. Some other Senator may have thought of this first, but Schumer would know a good idea if he heard it.
The Thin Black Duke
@Just Some Fuckhead: Not starting a fight, man. I’m just tired of the defeatist attitude is all. There have always been crazy white people wanting to kill me. I was born into it and I’ll die out of it. The fight is always going on. What’s making the difference is good white people finally seeing how crazy the crazy white people are. Can’t cure the disease if too many folks believe the disease doesn’t exist. Anything that brings clarity is a good thing. That’s why voters chose Biden.
SiubhanDuinne
LOL! No telling how long this will stay up, but this is from the Wikipedia entry on Michael van der Veen:
Elizabelle
@The Thin Black Duke: Thank you. I cannot stand the defeatism either.
@ Baud: LA Times column was by Virginia Heffernan. She is one of my favorites.
debbie
And now for something different.
zhena gogolia
@The Thin Black Duke:
Thank you.
debbie
@The Thin Black Duke:
Sadly, old habits die hard. It’s only relatively recently that Democrats have united and stood together against the bullshit. The GQP still hasn’t gotten that message.
zhena gogolia
I’m not sure I really know what this is about.
Mallard Filmore
@Elizabelle:
Yeah, well, Trump has been grooming his mob for a few years.
And yes, “grooming” is the right way to express this.
Just Some Fuckhead
@The Thin Black Duke: You’re literally arguing against nothing. There is no defeatism here.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
Apparently, this was brought up on The Situation Room as proof Trump knew what was going on at the Capitol.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@zhena gogolia: news to me, reading through the thread, it looks like Anthony Gonzalez, Ohio- R who vote to impeach, is sick of this shit and spilled some beans, and others are backing him up, on or off the record
Elizabelle
@zhena gogolia: LOL. Some twitterer is calling McCarthy “Qevin.”
The Thin Black Duke
@debbie: The Rude Pundit had a recent column where he observed that the Democrats who bought into the mythology of Tip and Ronnie laughing together, drinking scotch and getting things done. That generation of Democrats are mostly gone now. The new Democrats grew up in the era of escalating climate change, school shootings and Nazis marching openly in the streets. And they’re pissed. If anything, it’s the GQP who should be scared.
The Thin Black Duke
@Just Some Fuckhead: As I said, I’m not arguing, man.
Spanky
I love Telemann so much.
debbie
@The Thin Black Duke:
Yep. It won’t be the hippies who get bashed this time.
Spanky
@zhena gogolia: If the GQP underbusses trump, it will be all of a sudden, and en masse.
Quinerly
@zhena gogolia: CNN reporting on this now.
debbie
@Spanky:
? for Baroque!
Matt
@trollhattan:
Oh, some of them have probably already been “infiltrating” on a freelance basis…
https://www.theonion.com/every-member-of-police-department-excitedly-volunteers-1844393028
WaterGirl
@Bill Arnold: I don’t understand what that is supposed to be.
Bill Arnold
@The Thin Black Duke:
As CassandraLeo says, “Cēterum cēnseō factiōnem Rēpūblicānam dēlendam esse īgnī ferrōque”
As a young rifleman, my father killed Nazis in Europe in 1945. (With a rifle and grenades and bazooka rounds, not fire and sword, but still.) My more distant ancestors killed Confederate Traitors. (Perhaps with swords; at least one was a Union officer.)
Not sure that Republicans/the radical right wing in the US/Enemies of the United States of America have internalized how angry patriotic American members of the Democratic party are at them. How much they are loathed.
Bill Arnold
@WaterGirl:
He quite clearly said, out loud, “incitement to resurrection” instead of “incitement to insurrection”
As to what it means, well… :-)
(It actually has (arcane) meaning to me, curiously.)
WaterGirl
@Bill Arnold: thank you!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Steve in the ATL: There’s a reason to go to law school.