Ken Armstrong is a ProPublica reporter who co-authored “Unbelievable,” a book about a young woman coming out of the foster care system who reported a rape and then recanted her story. The book was later made into an excellent Netflix series.
Anyhoo, Mr. Armstrong read the leaked Alito opinion, noticed a familiar name in a citation and provided the backstory in a long tweet thread. It starts here:
In Justice Alito’s draft opinion reversing Roe, he writes about “an unbroken tradition of prohibiting abortion on pain of criminal punishment,” up until Roe in 1973.
He cites, as historical authority, Sir Matthew Hale.
Let me tell you about Hale & his views toward women.
THREAD— Ken Armstrong (@bykenarmstrong) May 4, 2022
The rest of the thread is detwitterized below, save for a couple of images:
2/ The Alito draft says Hale “described abortion of a quick child who died in the womb as a ‘great crime’ and a ‘great misprision.’”
3/ Hale became Lord Chief Justice of England in 1671. In his views of women, he was not a forward-thinking fellow — *even* by the abysmally low standards of his era.
4/ To Hale, English gentlewomen were “the ruin of families.” Young women were a particular source of despair. They “learn to be bold,” he complained, and “talk loud.”
5/ I researched Hale while writing, with @txtianmiller, the book “Unbelievable.” The book was an extension of a story we wrote for
@propublica and @MarshallProj called “An Unbelievable Story of Rape.”6/ Hale believed that for women, it was easy to accuse a man of rape. He believed that for men, such accusations were hard to defend, even if innocent. He advised that jurors be warned — explicitly, and at length — about the threat of the false accuser.
7/ He came up with quite the list of factors for jurors to weigh. Jurors, he wrote, should consider: Is the woman claiming rape of “good fame” — or “evil fame?” Did she cry out? Try to flee? Make immediate complaint afterward? Does she stand supported by others?
8/ Hale’s words became a standard feature of criminal trials in the U.S.
As long as 300 years after Hale’s death in 1676, many an American jury would be cautioned with what courts called the “Hale Warning”: an instruction to be especially wary of false accusations of rape.
9/ But that wasn’t Hale’s only legacy.
In 1662, at Bury St. Edmunds, Hale presided at the trial of two women accused of witchcraft. Hale instructed the jury that witches were real, saying Scripture affirmed as much.
10/ The jury convicted Amy Denny and Rose Cullender, after which Hale sentenced both women to hang.
Thirty years later, Hale’s handling of this trial, preserved in written record, served as model in Salem, Massachusetts, in the infamous witch trials of 1692.
11/ Hale is known for his legal treatises. But just as revealing is a letter he wrote to his granddaughters, dispensing individually tailored advice.
Granddaughter Mary, he wrote, needed to “govern the greatness of her spirit,” lest she become “proud, imperious and revengeful.”
12/ Granddaughter Frances could make a good housewife, Hale wrote, provided she be “kept in some awe, especially in relation to lying and deceiving.”
13/ As for granddaughter Ann, Hale perceived a “soft nature,” and therefore forbade plays, ballads or melancholic books, “for they will make too deep an impression upon her mind.”
14/ This letter was 182 pages long. When it came to advice, Sir Matthew Hale was full of it.
15/ Young women, Hale wrote, “make it their business to paint or patch their faces, to curl their locks, and to find out the newest and costliest of fashions.” …
16/ “If they rise in the morning before ten of the clock, the morning is spent between the comb, and the glass, and the box of patches; though they know not how to make provision for it themselves, they must have choice diet provided for them…”
17/ The letter reveals a man about as cheerful as his portrait suggests.
Wrote Hale: “The whole constitution of the people of this kingdom is corrupted into debauchery, drunkenness, gluttony, whoring, gaming, profuseness, and the most foolish, sottish prodigality imaginable.”
Sir Matthew Hale was a dour, arrogant, joyless and cruel prick. That makes him a fitting model for Justice Alito, both in personal character and judicial philosophy. Good to know.
Open thread.
laura
I cannot get the bitter taste out of my mouth. The distain at best and outright hatred of woman by these pinch faced motherfuckers who deign to rule and ruin just makes my bile rise.
mali muso
Another excellent thread on the depths of depravity and backwards thinking of this reference point.
bjacques
Surprised he didn’t work in Hale’s contemporary Judge Jeffreys as well.
West of the Rockies
I hope Aliota is made to own this shit. His wife must live such a happy life.// Does this A-hole have daughters?
I’m losing some humanity, I guess. On this day, I just hope his end comes soon and badly and in a humiliating fashion.
eachother
A vision of gray and bleak. A smoldering apocalypse. A century later a torch for liberty was lit. Sputtering still.
West of the Rockies
I’m a big fan of redemption and forgiveness, but some people, at long last, are irredeemable.
New Deal democrat
“The Alito draft says Hale “described abortion of a quick child who died in the womb as a ‘great crime’ and a ‘great misprision.’”
‘Quickening,’ or when the fetal heartbeat can be heard, was the traditional point at which it was believed that the soul was allowed by G*d to enter the body, occurred at 4.5 months. That was the historical position of all the Protestant churches, including the Southern Baptists, until 1980. if Alito wanted to adopt that as the national standard . . . Hmmm.
Oddly, he doesn’t.
HumboldtBlue
@mali muso:
I just finished reading that thread.
Here is Wrinkle the duck running a marathon as a palate cleanser.
Betty Cracker
@mali muso: Excellent threat — retweeted, and thanks for the link!
buggrit
Look, I’m just an internet rando here, but I think it’s time to resort to puerile name calling: Justice Panty Sniffer, the Panty Sniffer Six, Republican Panty Sniffer, you got the idea.
Soprano2
That Alito had to reach back to the 1600’s to find a judge that shores up his execrable opinion, and how absolutely awful that judge was when it came to women, should come as a surprise to no one.
OT, we’re absolutely drowning here. It’s officially rained 3.47″ here since Friday, but in a lot of areas it’s a lot more than that. We’ve had an insane amount of phone calls at the sewer department this morning , yet it’s not nearly as bad as an event like this would have been 10 years ago, so all the money we’re spending improving the system is having some results.
Roger Moore
It should surprise nobody to discover the factual analysis in the leaked opinion is also shoddy. It turns out that several of the states Alito is citing as having banned all abortion at the time the 14th Amendment was passed only banned it for “quick” (i.e. moving) fetuses. Alito saw the text of the law said it banned abortions, but the relevant case law said abortion only meant abortion of a quick fetus. In some other cases, the law only banned use of toxic chemicals but allowed surgical abortion. In one case, the law Alito cites was passed only after the 14th Amendment was ratified. When you correct for the factual errors, it turns out a substantial majority of states allowed at least some abortions at the time the 14th Amendment was ratified.
mali muso
More nightmare fuel for our dystopian future…
germy
Dangerman
That Meidas video with the daughter named Grace? Perfect choice for the name. The next video should be of Grace having to prove her miscarriage was natural. If we are going to have election police, we sure as shit will be having miscarriage police. And miscarriages happen to Pro-Lifers, too; good luck in the interrogation room to them as well.
Do vasectomies leave obvious scars? Obviously have never had one (I’m not into ANY sharps in that neighborhood; when I had my ablation and the nurse brought in the clippers … well, I’ll stop right there). If I was a straight woman, I’d be requiring proof of a vasectomy before the first date right about now (vasectomies can be reversed, right, if children are ever desired?)
mali muso
@Betty Cracker:
@HumboldtBlue:
Yeah, now I need to go breath into a paper bag or something.
Roger Moore
@West of the Rockies:
I wouldn’t put it quite that way. What I would say is that redemption is a process that earns forgiveness*. Nobody is inherently irredeemable, but plenty of people never even start walking the path of redemption.
*Forgiveness can always be freely given before it is earned, but it is solely at the discretion of the person offering it.
Mai Naem mobile
@West of the Rockies: he has at least one daughter who is a lawyer. I vaguely remember he has a bunch of kids(so as taxpayers we got to subsidize this POS and his gazillion kids.)
How much you want to bet Hale was a child diddle? Specifically female child diddler?.
BruceFromOhio
Kept awake nights convinced that somewhere, somehow, someone was having fun.
germy
Hoodie
The citation to Hale is further evidence of the generally shitty quality of conservative legal scholarship. Alito has been sitting on the same turd for nearly 20 years, so it’s not surprising he’s in a bad mood. While this is a draft opinion, it will be intriguing to see if the rest of the cabal would sign on to this malodorous piece of shit, with copious approving references to a 17th century misogynist.
Seems like a lot of folks are coming to the conclusion that the leak came from a conservative source trying to short-circuit Roberts from pulling back at least one of the Fucked Up Five from completely overruling Roe. Probably would backfire seeing the commentary on this stupid opinion, but you can’t give conservatives much credit for strategic brilliance. They’re more like the Russian Army, inexorable progress due to a complete lack of shame. Josh Marshall has been looking at this, including the possibility there were multiple leaks about the deliberation and that there may be a war going on in conservative legal circles, with strategic leaks from various parties. It sounds like the crab-bucket behavior of conservatives.
laura
@mali muso: Leveling up accross multiple platforms to boost revenues and increase shareholder value because criminalizing people in their reproductive years is just another opportunity not to be wasted when there’s big money to be made off this shiny new fugitive slave act.
germy
So it was just a first draft thing?
New Deal democrat
@Roger Moore:
Do you have a good source for this?
I would love to know how many States allowed for abortion up until the point of quickening when the 14th Amendment was adopted.
ksmiami
@West of the Rockies: I’m not usually an advocate for tyranny of the majority, but tumbrels etc are looking awfully appealing
MisterDancer
Yeah, I’ve been railing in my head about how absurd this is.
Remember the mythologization of the Founders? How these same wankers would go on and on about “Original Intent”? Hell, the group that has showed all these “Justices” down our gullets is literally named for them!
But this Draft shows that, push comes to shove, even the slave-holding Founders were more ethical than today’s GOP. They many not have cared a whit in the main about anyone other than White Landowners, but at least they knew there were problems to kick down the road, and that they wern’t the final arbiters of what America should be!
They don’t want to go back to 1950. Or even 1850. As a collective, they just come together to do one thing — burn down everything Liberals have built up, and put “certain people” on top, from here on out. Hell, even hating on Women and Black folx (among many others) takes a back seat to that, if they can get one of us onboard with that goal (see: Thomas, Clarence).
It’s clear from the reactions from the GOP Senate and Alito himself that even the “true believers” in power, right now, don’t have a clear plan, past this point. Oh, they know what they want to attack, what they want to tear down, to be certain! But they are clearly making this all up, as they go, fueled by unlimited cash and a wellspring of willing asshats to do their bidding and fuel their bots.
JustRuss
@BruceFromOhio: What kingdom is he referring to? Uh, asking for a friend.
Wag
@laura: beautifully written, and absolutely true
germy
Roger Moore
@BruceFromOhio:
I can understand how an upper class person living in Restoration-era England could have a very dim view of public morality. From everything I’ve read, “debauchery, drunkenness, gluttony, whoring, gaming, profuseness, and the most foolish, sottish prodigality imaginable” is a pretty good description of the Royal Court of the era. Of course applying the lessons from the most debased strata to the rest of society was a terrible error.
schrodingers_cat
From the archives of this blog.
Do average individuals include women?
We are here because so many minimized the evil the Republican party had come to represent. And our MSM unlike the blog host is still at it.
Roger Moore
@New Deal democrat:
I’m following this Op-Ed in the LA Times.
bbleh
I suppose it’s worth a reminder that, as a young fogey, Alito was very active in the Concerned Alumni of Princeton, an organization that worked very hard at — indeed arguably was founded for and had as its primary mission — preventing or limiting the admission of women.
Ogliberal
I fear that as long as people are paying $4.35 a gallon at the tanks, as long as the media has endless stories about inflation and as long as people still secretly feel bad about not wearing masks in places/scenarios where they should, none of the more important stuff – like this – will matter much to most voters come November. Will be ecstatic to be proven wrong but just not feeling it.
Adding…I’m betting half or more of voters don’t even know who the fuck Sam Alito is.
schrodingers_cat
@bbleh: It was pooh poohed by many at that time.
ArchTeryx
@mali muso: This all reminds me about what Vernor Vinge said about the inevitable collapse of even highly advanced civilizations:
We’re just about to ubiquitous law enforcement and incipent fascism here, aren’t we?
Lyrebird
@Roger Moore: Howdy, thanks for this.
ETA: never mind, you already answered above! Thanks again
bbleh
@schrodingers_cat: all the more evidence for the retrograde nature of Alito’s character and views.
Kay
@MisterDancer:
I think they’re arrogant people who always imagine they can control the negative chaos they unleash.
You see it right now with their elaborate denials. Self-soothing. “He would never, they would never, we will never…”
Yeah, they will. Hard pill to swallow but there it is. Take your medicine, you cowards.
Leto
Laurence O’Donnellspooe about this in his opening segment last night. The amount of times he said “moral failing” wrt this fuck stick wasn’t enough.
https://youtu.be/CfSuHtEOWkA
New Deal democrat
@Roger Moore: Thanks!
From the OpEd:
”Prominent originalists, including Michael McConnell, at Stanford, and Randy Barnett and Evan Bernick, at Georgetown and Northern Illinois University, respectively, have presented significant evidence that the 14th Amendment’s original meaning protects all rights that a substantial majority of states have respected over a lengthy period of our nation’s history. The right to pre-quickening abortion fits comfortably within that definition; it was respected by every single state at the founding, and by a supermajority when the 14th Amendment was ratified. Recognizing such a pre-quickening abortion right would be quite significant: Data show that 96% of abortions in America today occur before the 16-week mark.”
In other words, if one were truly going by what was historically permissible when the 14th Amendment came into operation, 96% of all abortions would be permitted.
MisterDancer
She’s right. We can. And she’d know the lift required, far moreso that 90+% of those yammering about this, inlcuding myself.
I’d not have accepted the post here, if I didn’t think the capability exists to change the world — the whole damn world –for the better.
It’s hard. But what work worth doing, isn’t?
WaterGirl
@schrodingers_cat: Do you have a link? google doesn’t bring up a match.
West of the Rockies
@Soprano2:
Please ship said rain to California. Thank you.
pluky
“When it came to advice, Sir Matthew Hale was full of it.”
If I could up-vote this double entendre, I would.
West of the Rockies
@germy:
Jimmy Fallon should do a SCOTUS First Drafts bit… (He does very funny musical first draft bits, such as for Free Falling and The Beach Boys T-Bird song.)
HumboldtBlue
@West of the Rockies:
We’re getting rain on the coast (it’s raining right now), but we need much more inland, and the snow pack is as low as it’s been in 50 years.
Also, can I point out just how shitty a writer Alito is? His thinking is and reasoning are even worse, but his prose is dreadful.
MisterDancer
Yeah. This is a “practical” downside of being unethical wankers — it leads to arrogance and sloppy work. I’m mindful as well of the toxic Rick Scott “tax the poors!” proposal that the rest of the GOP tried to shush, but that he kept getting airtime to promote.
Obviously, they overcome this by working the refs and flinging BS out at patronising rates (among many tools), but it still happens. Just this time, the sloppiness may be more than some brief media discomfort.
schrodingers_cat
@WaterGirl: Here
JoyceH
@Ogliberal:
On the other hand, I recall that a recent poll, conducted BEFORE the leaked Roe decision draft, showed a TEN POINT swing toward the generic Democrat in House race decisions, putting the Dems from 9 down to 1 up. I know, I know, the battle is district by district, but nationwide there seems to be a rather decisive swing back toward sanity, and that’s BEFORE you factor in Roe. And frankly, the average voter doesn’t need to know who Alito is, because they know what Roe is, and they know precisely which party has been striving mightily to take that right away from them.
Also remember that 2022 is the first time voters have a chance to make a ballot-casting statement of their opinions on national politics since 1/6. In 2020, they decisively rejected Trump (he lost GEORGIA, fercryinoutloud!), and that was BEFORE he incited an insurrection.
Gas, inflation, blah blah blah. This election is going to be about which party supports the rights of half the population that the other party wants to take away, and which party supports sedition.
Kay
@MisterDancer:
I think there’s some evidence they over stepped on the attacks on public schools. Outsourcing that to Christopher Rufo may not have been wise.
People don’t actually want to abolish public schools. Only people who attended fancy private schools think that.
West of the Rockies
@ArchTeryx:
I love Vinge.
But I’m actually a nutty optimist. I know we all hate Captain Kirk and Shatner (some), but I recall his original series speech he gave a few times… I paraphrase: “On Earth we learned to overcome our differences…”
I still believe we can do so. And, yes, Roger Moore, I agree that we are all theoretically redeemable. But we know that around 27% of us as a species will die with a grimace of resentment and fear and rage on our faces. Trump, et al, is not seeking forgiveness.
Citizen Alan
@Mai Naem mobile: Wiki says he has two, Phillip and Laura, both grown, though I assume Laura is still of child-bearing years.
EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo)
@HumboldtBlue: No kidding. How did this clown get into Princeton, let alone SCOTUS?
JoyceH
Off topic, but just reading at the Post that the Russians are prepping for a Victory Day parade – in Mariupol. Can the Ukrainians bomb it? Planes or drones or something?
TonyG
@West of the Rockies: According to Wikipedia, he does have a daughter, who is probably in her late-twenties or early thirties — about the same age as my two sons. What a joyless, hateful automaton he is. I hope that his daughter hates him, but there are plenty of young women who have jumped on the anti-woman bandwagon. What a horrible human being. These are the people who rule us.
Kay
@MisterDancer:
I think it’s more than that. They are conservatives so they give fellow conservatives the benefit of the doubt.
Megan McCardle is right now instructing defense attorneys on Twitter on how prosecutors will not apply these laws. So they’ve gone from “we would never pass the laws” to “don’t worry, we won’t actually apply any of them”. We went from a defined national right, to state laws, and already we’re at “prosecutorial discretion”. She’s bargaining with herself, and losing. Well, you’re losing. She’s given away the fucking store.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@JoyceH: Thank you.
The Eeyores are so certain they know what the future holds, and they push back against anything even slightly hopeful. This is a recipe for failure, and an excuse to do nothing.
Victory is never guaranteed, but this defeatist attitude can certainly guarantee defeat.
Omnes Omnibus
@EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo): Good grades in high school and decent test scores. Getting into “top” schools is not proof of anything besides a modicum of a ability, a capacity for work, and a certain amount of luck.
HumboldtBlue
@Kay:
I just read that thread, she’s that meme of the cartoon character sitting in a burning building thinking “this isn’t so bad.”
Citizen Alan
@EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo):
Compared to other inadequate white males, I’m sure he stacked up very well.
Princess Leia
@New Deal democrat:
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, quickening happened when the mother first feels fetal movement. That was the time of ensoulment, and why the 4.5 month thing. So much different than our calculated time frames, and why heartbeat is irrelevant to the early thinking. Also true, though, that Aquinas (and almost all others of the time) thought that sperm was in fact a full human, and that the mother ONLY provided a place to grow. Easy to see that logic in a lot of current conversation on the right.
Roger Moore
@New Deal democrat:
The author is being a little bit clever with their wording, though. According to the article, a bare majority of states made abortion legal at the time the 14th Amendment was ratified, and not all of them allowed every form of abortion even for pre-quickening fetuses. But the 14th Amendment was ratified at a time when abortion rights were being eroded, so the situation was actually better when you look at when the Constitution was ratified. The author is using that to argue that the right was well established through the nation’s history, even though it wasn’t dominant when the 14th Amendment was ratified.
That’s actually a reasonable point to make. The whole purpose of the 14th Amendment was to prevent established rights from being eroded. If women used to have the right to an abortion but that right was being taken away around the time the 14th Amendment was ratified, the 14th should have protected it.
Kay
@HumboldtBlue:
I don’t know how you ban abortions and not regulate and track miscarriages for possible violations of abortion laws. Can she explain that to me? How does that work in the emergency room?
The “good” women will somehow be culled from the “bad” women? Based on what?
It’s an issue of intent.
Jerzy Russian
OK, quick opinion poll: Which among the quoted activities is your favorite? Mine is gluttony.
Raoul Paste
@HumboldtBlue: funniest part of that duck marathon video are the bystanders cheering the duck on saying “you’ve got this!”
Bill Arnold
@mali muso:
For those on an iPhone, go through Settings->Privacy->Location Services and make sure all your apps are set to Never or While Using (and the later only if necessary. Does your browser need to know where you are located?)
Any exceptions, be sure you trust the vendor to not sell your location data or to use a free programming toolkit which in turn sells your location data.
Kay
@HumboldtBlue:
Right wing women believe they can keep all the many, many benefits of cultural and legal liberalism while getting rid of all the parts they don’t care about or don’t like. It just doesn’t work like that. You get the whole far Right package. You get the laws AND you get the restrictive, archaic culture.
HumboldtBlue
@Kay:
Missouri is already doing those things, and that’s from three years ago.
Peale
@Jerzy Russian: I would have pegged you for profuseness.
Roger Moore
@West of the Rockies:
Yes. A better way to say it is that the irredeemable are not those who did the worst things but the ones who refuse to seek redemption. People who refuse to acknowledge they’ve done anything wrong will never take the first step on the path, and we all know that first step is often the most difficult.
Ken
1671, huh? Not that long after English law permitted — nay, required — the burning of Catholic heretics. Then Protestant heretics. Then Catholic heretics, again. Does Alito mention that, or is he saving it for after the elections?
JPL
@Kay: She needs to return to talking about fancy blenders changing her life. I think that was when Tom was still covering her. For mental health reasons, he quit. lol
Jerzy Russian
@Peale: It has been a long time since Catholic school, but I don’t remember that being a sin.
lowtechcyclist
@Kay:
The leopards eat the faces of the people you despise, but sooner or later your own face becomes a leopard snack.
Kay
It’s 3 days since professional anti-abortion activists assured the public they would not be prosecuting women, and they’re passing laws out of committee to prosecute women.
Who can believe a word these people say? What ordinary person could risk relying on them? They’re completely untrustworthy and their word means nothing.
And the NERVE of it, right? “We’ll tell the dopes…whatever. Just get through today”.
HumboldtBlue
@JPL:
You can feel Edroso’s eyes roll when he comments on a Mcardle take.
SiubhanDuinne
@Jerzy Russian:
Mine too. But I must admit, “sottish prodigality” has a ring to it.
Roger Moore
@Kay:
She may be right if you include the unstated “to people like me” in her statement. This is how the conservative project succeeds: they know (or at least believe) they can destroy all this stuff because they personally won’t suffer the consequences. Of course rich people like McArdle will be able to keep getting abortions, whether it’s prosecutorial discretion ignoring rich people breaking the law, going to another state, or even to another country. That poor BIPOC can’t do the same doesn’t matter to her.
West of the Rockies
@HumboldtBlue:
I hope to relocate to your area someday. We love coastal kayaking. Russian Gulch down in Mendocino is… stunning. But Trinidad looks good, too. I would love to tip a Mirror Pond or Sierra Nevada product with you some day.
CaseyL
Anyone here catch the Democratic Senators’ announcement and press conference on the Women’s Health Protection Act they plan to introduce and vote on next week? I don’t think I’ve ever seen them angrier than they are over this. It was glorious.
SiubhanDuinne
Deleted. Dupe.
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
Not forgetting the pink Himalayan salt.
CaseyL
@Jerzy Russian: I’d kind of like to know what “profuseness” is, because “profuse” just means “lots of.” Lots of what?
My own personal fave would be gluttony if I weren’t diabetic. As it is, I can only enjoy a keto-friendly overindulgence.
Hmm. “Eat my weight in salmon” actually sounds pretty good…
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: McMegan is fatuous. She is not someone who should be taken seriously. Tom Levenson occasionally used her as an intellectual chew toy until he grew bored.
debbie
Thomas Cromwell rolls his eyes.
Catatonia
@BruceFromOhio: so in other words he hates all the best things in life
Jerzy Russian
@CaseyL: I gather from the context that profuseness means an “abundance of sin”.
Gluttony is always good. Whoring, gaming, and sottish prodigality all seem like fun, but only if done in moderation.
Spirula
Wrote Hale: “The thing is, being corrupted into debauchery, drunkenness, gluttony, whoring, gaming, profuseness, and the most foolish, sottish prodigality imaginable is what I’m wholly into. But enough about me.”
persistentillusion
@SiubhanDuinne: I was hoping for “scottish prodigality”, myself.
@SiubhanDuinne:
Catatonia
@bbleh: Anytime I see “Concerned” initial cap, when it’s not leading off a sentence, I get … concerned.
HumboldtBlue
@West of the Rockies:
Downtown Brown is on me when you’re in town.
You’ll find dozens of places to kayak up here and the Rogue River two hours north in Oregon is hugely popular as well.
debbie
I read both threads about Hale earlier today. Other than Alito, who takes him seriously?
Jerzy Russian
Getting back to the topic at hand, this guy apparently had grandchildren. This would seem to indicate that he got laid at least once. That does not seem possible from what I have read.
debbie
@Jerzy Russian:
Why else focus on “false” accusations of rape? ?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
1671, Charles II was king, I called it.
Extra subtext while Alito would be keen to quote Witch Hunter General Hale; Charles II was a secret Catholic and wanted to become an absolute monarch. What is there not to like for a Catholic Dominionist like Alito?
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
Nobody should take what McArdle says as a good guide to reality, but it’s a good insight into what people in her group are thinking. I really think a lot of conservative (and conservative-adjacent) people, especially wealthy ones, aren’t concerned about this stuff because they don’t think it will ever happen to them. Leopards, faces, etc.
Calouste
@EarthWind&Fire (formerly bluegirlfromwyo): I guess the usual way people get into Ivy League schools: rich parents.
MisterDancer
I think there’s a lot of mis-reading of the Democratic Party approach. That said, it’s not like the anger [at the Party, to be clear] isn’t coming from a place where a lot of people already can’t get any Abortion services, and even Birth Control isn’t always an easy catch, depending on you health/financial situation.
There have been a lot of people ill served, and scared for a damned long time. Because many of those folx don’t have the ability to get on the socials, much less crank out a letter to their rep…well, it’s easy to ignore them.
But we should not have.
Peale
@Calouste: He was there when Princeton went Co-Ed and apparently was one of the students against it. So basically, he got good grades because there wasn’t much competition for them.
RaflW
Dour, Arrogant, Joyless and Cruel, LLC.
The firm Alito, Kavnaugh, Thomas and Barrett would form if cut loose from scotus.
Lyrebird
From your lips to teh FSM’s ears, Kay!
And, true confessions:
one of many unrealistic views I have is that I cannot understand how M McArdle, C Cilizza and them get paid to spout their views to the world, but you and Betty C and all don’t.
West of the Rockies
@HumboldtBlue:
I’d love that! Do you paddle? My wife grew up kayaking in Bay Area (SF, not Humboldt). I’ve only been going for 20 years.
I recall Pranqster being an interesting local beer in your neighborhood too. Haven’t tried a DTB.
NotMax
“Sam, you made the rants too long.”
//
(Feel confident enough here will grok whence the reference.)Enhanced Voting Techniques
@debbie:Cromwell, now there was a man who know how to get stubborn reactionaries into the correct head space.
HumboldtBlue
@West of the Rockies:
I do not paddle, a tour of the bay and the odd sailing trip every now and then are sufficient.
Calouste
@debbie: I was trying to think of an academic field, except for history, where you’re supposedly at the top of your profession and you could build your argument around a 350 year-old source, and not get laughed out of the room. Even Isaac Newton and Adam Smith have long since been improved on. Newton is basically high school physics these days, not PhD level or higher.
Catatonia
@NotMax: Manchurian Candidate?
Roger Moore
@debbie:
As I understand it, there would be no rape under the law at the time. When a woman married, she effectively gave permanent sexual consent to her husband, so it was legally impossible for him to rape her. This legal principle continued until nearly the present day. IIRC, it was only in the 1970s that any state in the union recognized marital rape as a thing, and I think it wasn’t until the 1990s that all of them did.
Omnes Omnibus
@debbie: FWIW he was considered quite progressive for his time and was known for his honesty and fairness by period standards.
West of the Rockies
@Calouste:
Maybe philosophy, too. Shakespearean criticism?
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: Also, I think some people may be conflating Hale with Witchfinder General Matthew Hopkins.
zhena gogolia
Ken
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m guessing “by period standards” is doing some heavy lifting there, similar to “Nyarlathotep is quite approachable and understandable, by Elder Gods standards”.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ken: Oh, yeah, I know.
Mike in NC
I’d bet a good sum of money that Alito as a kid frequently watched “The Conqueror Worm” (AKA “The Witchfinder General”) on TV. From the early 1960s, it starred Vincent Price as a brutal magistrate active during the English Civil War. He was very much into torture and brutality for no particular reason than the pleasure it gave him.
OK, I see Omnes got there before me @ 112.
Chief Oshkosh
@schrodingers_cat:
What is this, a trick question? Heck no. Women are well above average. It’s us men that pull down the species.
Betty Cracker
Yowza, the stock market is tanking!
danielx
@Chief Oshkosh:
Truth – more women graduating from medical school than men these days.
Kay
“Up to the states”. Another lie from the anti abortion movement.
geg6
@New Deal democrat:
I could be off on this a bit, but I seem to remember from back in my undergrad days that abortion wasn’t really illegal in most states until the 1870s. Almost all states had some sort of abortion allowable until then.
HumboldtBlue
Nothing quite like the tact and grace of a NH GOP State Rep on the steps of the people’s house. Say hello to Susan DeLamus engaging peaceful protestors this morning.
debbie
@Omnes Omnibus:
Plus he loved his family too much to send them 182-page letters. //
zhena gogolia
@HumboldtBlue: They’re all so nuts.
Omnes Omnibus
@debbie: Progressive for the 17th Century…. Hey, the girls were taught to read and were considered worthy of moral instruction. Lots of moral instruction.
danielx
There are so many things enraging me about Alito and his ilk that it’s hard to single out any one item, but one thing that really struck me about the infamous draft opinion is Alito’s utterly contemptuous and arrogant tone. He appears not to give a rusty goddamn about anything except justifying his own opinions and deriding anyone who may disagree with him. If that requires him to praise the thoughts of a humorless arrogant prick like Matthew Hale, well, wait until there’s another occasion in which he can approvingly cite Torquemada in his written opinion in support of autos-da-fé.
debbie
@zhena gogolia:
Good for CT, but Abbott will file a lawsuit in 3, 2, …
debbie
@Calouste:
Right. I wonder how often he’s been cited in previous rulings.
schrodingers_cat
@Chief Oshkosh: Good answer
HumboldtBlue
@debbie:
Wait until Jewish leaders start filing lawsuits against states that restrict abortion.
Kay
@danielx:
Agreed. His speeches are the flip side of it- a list of grievances and a petulant demand to be respected and deferred to.
SiubhanDuinne
@HumboldtBlue:
Jesus. She seems nice.
brantl
Alito once wrote an opinion that it was okay for a cop to shoot a non-violent purse-snatcher (fleeing, naturally) in the back of the head. Case closed. Rectus in extremis.
debbie
@HumboldtBlue:
Not the kind of religious freedom Alito et al. could have anticipated, I bet.
debbie
@Kay:
Respect is earned, pal. ?
Cacti
This isn’t a decision.
It’s a judicial coup by 5 religious extremists, declaring that the religious extremists of your state can force their beliefs on you under penalty of law.
It’s a wrecking ball to the wall of separation between church and state.
The United States as it existed since 1865 is going flat line.
MisterDancer
Good lookin’ out from the Biden Admin, in other news:
Dee Lurker
@ArchTeryx: Honestly, that isn’t correct. Civilizations and empires collapse in different ways. It’s amazing how many people want to go all Oswald Spengler and contain human history in some fatalistic dynamic, but that isn’t true. We don’t know what the future holds and how we are going to fare. That is good news.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Sadface. My various retirement account quarterlies for Q1/22 showed losses exceeding my gross salary, never mind my net. Q2 looks like it’s mirroring that trend. Somebody needs to introduce Vlad to a Husqvarna wood chipper.
trollhattan
@brantl: I remember when Scalia, Alito’s nastier twin, opined that while it was sub-optimal to execute a convicted murder even when exonerating evidence appeared post-trial, rules are rules and a few judicial misses are not as important as those rules.
They are monsters, actual monsters.
the pollyanna from hell
@Dee Lurker: In particular the warning about overpopulation completely misses the moderating effect of feminism. Women who are equally educated and empowered find better things to do than overpopulate the world.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Bullshit.
HumboldtBlue
This cartoon sums up current GOP policy.
Also, there’s a fascinating story in Northern Ireland as they hold elections today.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus: Ok, Boomer Pollyanna.
japa21
@HumboldtBlue: That cartoon is so accurate. What isn’t shown is the key.
japa21
@Omnes Omnibus:
I just remembered why I pied him. Don’t know what possessed to let him free.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Go ahead and give up. Don’t try to take others with you.
Cacti
@japa21: I would say I noticed you never spoke to me, but I’d be lying.
HumboldtBlue
@japa21:
Yup.
debbie
@HumboldtBlue:
I hope that cartoon can get to wherever the most viewers can be offended.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus: The religious extremists have a SCOTUS majority for the foreseeable future. They’ve given their blessing to vote suppression and gerrymandering to give artificial majorities to the reactionaries. And if that fails, the reactionaries showed in 2020 that they’re no longer above attempting a violent coup if they don’t get their way.
Now counselor, would you kindly share what the fuck looks good or hopeful about the future of the United States in present form, in the face of all the above?
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Are you planning on leaving? Because that would be a start.
Betty Cracker
@HumboldtBlue: Whoa, that’s a sea change!
debbie
@trollhattan:
I’m not understanding why companies weren’t better prepared for this, having known for quite a while that it was coming.
A Good Woman
ICYMI
States have been pursuing women about miscarriages for some time. The National.Advocates for Pregnant Women has been working the issue. I suspect that workload will increase.
Betty Cracker
I think Rep. Demings has the framing just right here — “When I decided to start my family, I didn’t ask the governor’s permission…they need to stay out of our business.”
SiubhanDuinne
@Betty Cracker:
I wish I could vote for her!
Kay
Second NYTimes article since the primary gushingly promoting JD Vance:
They really should play fair and give Tim Ryan a couple million to buy ads. Two free Vance ads a day is a lot.
Kay
The New York Times JD Vance coverage reminds me of how they all promoted Trump 2013 to 2016.
All we need now are Tim Ryan’s emails and it will be a replay.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker:
I am a no one on a nearly top-10,000 blog, but I think all the framing of the 70s through last week needs to change from “choice” to “freedom.” It’s what’s now, happenin’, Charlie!
The language of the day is freedom and liberty, not autonomy and choice. And what is more about freedom and liberty that reproductive choices?
Kay
Embarrassing. The worst politics coverage in the country, consistently.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus: You’ve got nothing and you know it.
Immanentize
@Kay: You know that I was not a big Ryan fan when he was doing his semi-racist man of the people thing. But the guy is real and I think he has a chance in part because I do not doubt that Vance has done some really shady things in the past and we may get to learn of them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: Okay, doomer.
SiubhanDuinne
@HumboldtBlue:
That cartoon is genuinely terrifying.
Cacti
@Omnes Omnibus: Your generational epitaph will be:
Killed the United States of America.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Hmmm:
JFC, imagine Thiel’s puffed up chameleon pontificating about American Christianity! It’s a wonder Meemaw doesn’t rise from the grave and pummel him with her Keds.
SiubhanDuinne
@Cacti:
My my my. You are an unpleasant little person, aren’t you?
The Lodger
@Jerzy Russian: I have to stand up for gaming and prodigality myself.
debbie
@Kay:
Yeah, up until he went into venture capital. //
Omnes Omnibus
@Cacti: How old do you think I am? And how old are you?
Immanentize
@trollhattan: Scalia was the soul of reason and enlightenment compared to Alito. And yes, I was involved in that and other such death penalty innocence cases. Heller was Scalia’s legal reasoning low point — but it was at least clever compared to Alito’s abortion jihad.
Kay
@Immanentize:
No one has to be a fan of Tim Ryan. He’ll be a respectable centrist Democrat who will vote with the Party and he’s the best candidate we were ever going to get in Ohio.
The NYTimes is gross. I know people buy it for the crossword or the recipes or whatever, but I can’t imagine paying for it at this point. Personally.
The Toledo Blade is owned by a Right wing, wealthy family who basically own the paper just so they can use it to lobby against labor unions. The Blade gets further Right every year. THEIR coverage of JD Vance doesn’t even approach this embarrasing hero worship by the NYTimes team.
Immanentize
@Kay: is Ohio really so far gone that they will embrace Vance? Or is this all just tribal now? And is Mandel really not going to shiv Vance at every turn?
Bill Arnold
@Kay:
Jebus, that Vance v. Ryan piece is disconnected. One does not “lose districts” in a statewide race; a shift of a voter in a rural district counts just as much as a shift of an urban voter.
I will look forward to your commentary on that race over the next months.
catclub
@laura:
new fugitive slave act.
fugitive fetus act rolls off the tongue better
Immanentize
@catclub: agreed
But Fugitive Uterus Act may be more accurate.
Kay
Political “reporting” by the NYTimes. It’s a pro JD Vance opinion piece. Second one today.
Bill Arnold
@Cacti:
Gormless young human.
HumboldtBlue
@catclub:
Damn
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Editorial discomfort with the character Machinegun Jesus.
Captain C
@Ken: If he dares mention that, if the Evangelicals ever gain full political power, they’ll use it to burn him as he’s no longer useful at that point.
Captain C
@RaflW:
The finest in sadism-friendly law[TM]
Bill Arnold
@Kay:
Also, a venture capitalist who both has major campaign support from and works for Peter Thiel, who bankrolls far right wing propagandists. And Elon Musk thinks Peter Thiel is a sociopath (allegedly).
catclub
@Bill Arnold: He would know.
Another Scott
@mali muso:
That’s where that came from?? Zounds. :-(
Thanks for the pointer. I hope it helps to show more people what an absolute monster Alito and the rest of these SCOTUS RWNJs are.
Cheers,
Scott.
sab
@schrodingers_cat: Biden made a big deal at Alito’s confirmation hearing about Alito being horrified when his college ( Princeton?) went co-ed. And the Press all laughed at Biden.
Bex
@Betty Cracker: Vance converted to Catholicism a while back, and I would guess to the right-wing American version. I’m glad his book tanked.
burnspbesq
Alito actually misquotes Hale and attributes views to him which he manifestly did not hold.
burnspbesq
@Cacti:
Hope and willingness to work are things, asshole. What you got?
Brachiator
@Immanentize:
Fugitive Womb Act.