Doocy; You’re saying you guys are proud of the way this mission was conducted?
Kirby: Proud of the fact that we got more than 124k people safely out of Afghanistan? You bet… pic.twitter.com/2hMROLOGjU— Acyn (@Acyn) April 6, 2023
Not my usual upbeat early-morning fare, but we were taught on Good Friday that sometimes the only way forward is to march through hell.
It’s good our military is officially out, and that’s the best can be said at this moment.
To say the withdrawal from Afghanistan was "chaotic" is a tautology, not a serious criticism of Biden. There was no non-"chaotic" option on the table, and Biden was correct to realize that the only actual alternative to "chaos" was perpetual war https://t.co/0RhHTyYXSq
— Scott Lemieux (@LemieuxLGM) April 6, 2023
… The White House publicly released a 12-page summary of the results of the so-called “ hotwash ” of U.S. policies around the ending of the nation’s longest war, taking little responsibility for its own actions and asserting that Biden was “severely constrained” by Trump’s decisions.
It does acknowledge that the evacuation of Americans and allies from Afghanistan should have started sooner, but blames the delays on the Afghan government and military, and on U.S. military and intelligence community assessments.
The brief document was drafted by the National Security Council, rather than by an independent entity, with input from Biden himself. The administration said detailed reviews conducted by the State Department and the Pentagon, which the White House said would be transmitted privately to Congress on Thursday, were highly classified and would not be released publicly.
“President Biden’s choices for how to execute a withdrawal from Afghanistan were severely constrained by conditions created by his predecessor,” the White House summary states, noting that when Biden entered office, “the Taliban were in the strongest military position that they had been in since 2001, controlling or contesting nearly half of the country.”…
The report does fault overly optimistic intelligence community assessments about the Afghan army’s willingness to fight, and says Biden followed military commanders’ recommendations for the pacing of the drawdown of U.S. forces.
“Clearly we didn’t get it right,” National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said Thursday, but sidestepped questions about whether Biden has any regrets for his decisions and actions leading up to the withdrawal.
The White House asserts the mistakes of Afghanistan informed its handling of Ukraine, where the Biden administration has been credited for supporting Kyiv’s defense against Russia’s invasion. The White House says it simulated worst-case scenarios prior to the February 2022 invasion and moved to release intelligence about Moscow’s intentions months beforehand…
I’m frankly surprised the Repubs haven’t already started leaking dishonest ‘takes’ from the top-secret release, but it *has* been a busy news week, so maybe they’re saving it till Monday.
Surely this can't be related to the previous administration's stated Nov/Dec '20 policy of "starting so many fires they can't put them out."
— No War But Class War (@DelibrtlyObtuse) April 6, 2023
Reminder:
Donald Trump signed the final Doha Agreement with the Taliban, with the leader he had released from imprisonment, in February 2020.
In the midst of a lot of Taliban escalating violence directed at our troops
— ǤᎥᖇᒪᔕ ꀭꐇꌚ꓅ աǟռռǟ ĦΔV€ ᖴᑌᑎᗪᗩᗰᗴᑎ丅ᗩᒪ ⦑human⦒ Rıɠɧɬʂ (@CeliaFateEsq) August 24, 2021
Frankensteinbeck
Faust.
Frankensteinbeck
The national press love war, and they were absolutely infuriated by Biden following through with the withdrawal. They blatantly still hate him for it.
Lapassionara
@Frankensteinbeck: Lot of people hate him for it. They have memory-holed TFG’s decisions re the Taliban.
Vietnam should have taught us that there is no good way to end a war.
raven
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Frequent_Wind
Baud
@Frankensteinbeck:
I agree. What little reporting I’ve seen on this has shown that they continue to be bitter.
Geminid
I have not read the report (and am unlikely to). My impression, from remarks by Mr. Kirby I heard on the radio news, is that the administration has decided that the best defense in this matter is a good offense . Kirby pinned the blame on Donald Trump, where it belongs
Narya
@Baud: Which is ghoulish beyond belief. I continue to see him following through and getting out of there as a good thing—tragic but unavoidable, and preferable to any real alternative.
Balconesfault
I continue to believe that had the American government began the evacuation of Afghanistan allies much earlier, the Biden Administration would have been blamed for undercutting the ability of the Ashraf Ghani Government to defend itself.
The Fox News crowd wouldn’t only be calling out the inevitable chaos of the withdrawal, but the whole takeover of the country by the Taliban is having been by Bidens fault.
rikyrah
Good Morning, Everyone😊😊😊
Baud
@rikyrah:
Good morning.
rikyrah
I am so glad that 46 got us out of Afghanistan✊🏾
Baud
@rikyrah:
👍
Baud
Haha. Good morning America is calling Thomas out on his fake RV story.
MisterDancer
It’s amazing that a press so eager to prop Trump up in front of us at every opportunity, is strangely silent about his role in the Afghanistan situation.
raven
@Balconesfault: Id the thunder don’t get ya the lightnin will. . .
Baud
@Baud:
I didn’t realize the RV story was a documentary with video. Makes it so much funnier than a printed interview.
Barbara
@Frankensteinbeck: It’s not just the press, it’s think tanks and consultants. A lot of people earned a lot of money in Afghanistan with no obvious replacement opportunity.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@raven: All those big Ivy League brains that held over from JFK should have been able to handle the simple correlations:
1. Northern half of the country would idolize the nationalist liberation guy who liberated them from the French;
2. At least 60% of the people in the countryside in the southern half of the country would idolize the nationalist liberation guy who liberated them from the French;
3. At least 30% of the people in the urbanized parts of the southern half ALSO idolized national liberation guy.
4. They were accustomed to privation and weren’t in on the grift.
schrodingers_cat
@Frankensteinbeck: National press loves Republicans and they don’t need a reason to hate the Democratic president.
Case in point, check out their behavior with respect to Clinton and Obama or Carter for that matter.
Geminid
I see that July 12 will be the 70-year anniversary of James Michener’s Caravans. His novel about Afghanistan ca.1960 was published July 12, 1963. It’s pretty good.
Frankensteinbeck
@schrodingers_cat:
True, but it was the Afghanistan withdrawal when press coverage of Biden turned sharply negative and stayed that way. That’s when his favorability numbers tanked, as hearing nothing but stories about Biden being a bad president will do that to squishes.
schrodingers_cat
I vote to retire these orientalist Kiplingisms. The man was an unrepentant apologist for the Empire.
ROW = rest of the world.
schrodingers_cat
@Frankensteinbeck: Agreed. I think they would have found something else if Afghanistan withdrawal had not happened.
Albatrossity
Remembering who started that stupid war, it is always true that the modern GOP;s strategy is to break something while they are in power, and than complain it is broken when they are out of power. For other examples see USPS, EPA, IRS, and a host of other government agencies and programs.
Raven
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: fuck lbj
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Highly classified? So that means it will be given to Hannity and publicly “summarized” a la Bill Barr within 24 hours?
OzarkHillbilly
‘They want me to go’: legendary caddie Carl Jackson will not return to Masters
lowtechcyclist
@Geminid:
I read Michener’s Chesapeake several years ago. It was OK, but not good enough to make me want to read anything else by him.
Not to mention, it should have been titled Choptank, the Eastern Shore tributary of the bay where most of the book is centered. The bay itself, let alone its western shore, was all but absent from the book. But I guess a more honest title would have sold fewer copies.
Frankensteinbeck
@Albatrossity:
In Bush’s case, I don’t think he meant to break Afghanistan or Iraq. He, Cheney, and their crew thought they were liberators, because they thought they were gods and had merely to flex the USA’s superior military might. The lesser peoples would be awed and grateful for our benevolence, and obviously it would be easy for their right-thinking minions to show the natives how a real government worked. Then Bush would be a bigger hero then his dad, and Cheney would watch the whole Middle East eagerly bend the knee to America’s superior leadership.
Which in practice meant they broke everything and then shrugged their shoulders at fixing it. Definite shades of the British Empire.
JML
@Frankensteinbeck: very very true. The press has seen foreign wars as being star-making moments for them as individuals and ratings/circulation boosters for their organizations as a whole. The critics of a war in the press always seems to stop short of supporting the end of the war they “oppose” because it’s advancing their name. And there are bunches of “blow ’em up” bastards littered throughout the whole industry.
Add in the fact that the press loves nothing more than a “Dems in disarray” story, there was no way Biden was ever going to get a fair shake on Afghanistan. The best decision was to get out fast and move on.
With the incredibly short attention span of the electorate, does anyone really think about this story besides the media? Midterms weren’t influenced by it, and it’s not going to move any votes in the next election either, no matter how many concern trolling pieces the DC intelligentsia shoves down our throats.
H.E.Wolf
@OzarkHillbilly:
Thank you for spotlighting Mr. Jackson.
Here’s an earlier (2007) article for anyone interested, with lots of information on Jackson’s early years as a caddie.
https://www.espn.com/golf/masters07/news/story?id=2815893
Shalimar
@Albatrossity: Also the Republican approach to crime: flood the streets with guns, complain Democrats aren’t doing anything about the horrible crime rate increases, increase and militarize police forces, who can’t do anything, rinse, repeat.
lowtechcyclist
@schrodingers_cat:
Jeez, I don’t think I’ve ever in my life heard that stupid expression used other than sarcastically.
I see and agree with your point about ‘Graveyard of Empires,’ though. It’s all about what Afghanistan is to great powers from another part of the world, rather than anything about what Afghanistan is.
Frankensteinbeck
@JML:
Yeah. 2024 is going to be defined by things that haven’t happened yet and can’t be predicted.
Anyway
@Geminid:
Meh, I’m not a Michener fan – read a few of his novels back in the day and I’d describe his writing style as “literary pablum”. Colonial and dated, imo. Very formulaic.
Joe Falco
@JML:
Only those who most likely wasn’t going to vote for Biden or any Democrats anyway.
jonas
Ending the war in Afghanistan was as clear an example of a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation as ever there was. Biden had two choices: follow up with the agreed withdrawal, even if it would be messy. Or re-invade the country with tens of thousands of troops, restart a hot war with the Taliban, and commit to essentially occupying the country forever. The Biden WH is right to lay this at Trump’s feet — it was his idea to 1. sign a deal with the Taliban and 2. do absolutely nothing to lay the groundwork for an orderly withdrawal. And that was intentional — they didn’t want to do anything that might have made Biden’s job on that any easier. Fuckers.
Balconesfault
@Frankensteinbeck: it was worse than not trying to break it. They had corporate -libertarian infused fantasies that if they just took out the existing governments, and then stabilized the countries with a huge military presence, US corporations could come in and set up shops in a deregulated wonderland and prove to the world how unfettered capitalism could transform poverty stricken regions far better than any socialist policies could.
lowtechcyclist
@Frankensteinbeck:
Tru dat. I occasionally am reminded about the last couple of government shutdowns, which were big stories at the time, but they were each a year or more before the next election and had been all but forgotten by most voters by then.
jonas
@Frankensteinbeck:
I think it’s also easy to forget how brazenly they were looking at those wars through the lens of electoral politics as well. Karl Rove was convinced that invading Iraq was a no-brainer and that our glorious victory there would cement a Republican majority for the next generation. And this wasn’t on the down-low, either. I clearly remember well-connected talk radio hosts like Hugh Hewitt crowing about how winning in Iraq was going to be amazeballs because it would show how feckless the terrorist-loving Dum-o-crats were and turn everyone into chest-thumping Republicans.
zhena gogolia
NYT front page chose “calamitous” withdrawal. More euphonious than “chaotic.”
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Someone should ask these very serious Pundits who keep on about Afghanistan;
1) What exactly was “victory” in Afghanistan?
2) And how much of a tax increase do they think it would take to have booth supported the Afghan War, the Ukraine War and rebuild the US Navy because of China?
But I know the real answer from those pundits is “I don’t give a shit, the Afghan War was life time employment for me and my friends”
bbleh
In addition to creating drama for the sake of entertainment, and truly resenting Biden for ending their Glorious Little War, the press is doing nothing more than Monday-morning quarterbacking. And as to the latter, fair enough if there were some material issues that reasonably could have been seen at the time, but in this case … not. Kirby is right to say that, all things considered, it went very well.
The good news is, the Biden people seem to know exactly how to handle it, ie “uh-huh sure kids okay shuddup now adults at work.”
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Balconesfault: I worked with a guy from Afghanistan and IDK, from what he described Afghanistan was already the glibertarian paradise the Right dreams about; gun rentals, private armiesm murder for hire and so on.
rikyrah
I hope that one of the FrontPagers will highlight the expulsion of the two Black legislators in Tennessee😠😠
MomSense
@Frankensteinbeck:
Those same critics were cheerleaders for the war even as anyone with a brain could see it was not going well, and was never about to turn some mythical corner and somehow be successful. They were defending their own abysmal judgment by blaming everything on Biden.
OzarkHillbilly
My wife’s bronze age ancestors were big on acid trips.
OK Ok…. I’m stretching it a little. So shoot me.
rikyrah
Blank Slate (@blankslate2017) tweeted at 10:47 PM on Thu, Apr 06, 2023:
This expulsion of 2 Black state legislators by white TN GOPers hits at 2 issues that motivate Gen Z & Dems in general: gun control and racism. On top of that, Dobbs is driving Dems and is helping them make persuasion gains. The cultural issues for ’24 favor the Dems, not the GOP.
(https://twitter.com/blankslate2017/status/1644185093429141505?s=02)
trucmat
The way press groupthink congealed on Afghanistan was shameful but typical. One-sided with little acknowledgement that America had no business being there indefinitely. Fantasies about yet more troop surges stood in for military analysis. Their drumbeat did bring down Bidens numbers which undoubtedly was the goal of many editors. Mission accomplished. IMO Biden is the only President who handled Afghanistan correctly with Obama being among those who handled it incompetently.
BlueGuitarist
@rikyrah:
Thanks for this!
Saw at your link Josh Marshall:
Steeplejack
@lowtechcyclist:
The Choptank is my favorite Delmarva river! Cross it every time I go to Rehoboth Beach. Plus I think it could be part of a cool character name—Choptank Johnson, sketchy private eye.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Shalimar:
I can reduce the murder rate and get a lot of murders solved, but there’s no way you’ll get buy-in from the police departments on it.
Announce a three year moratorium on controlled buys and no knock raids on trafficking locations. Sit the narcotics squad goons down with the homicide detectives, and match connections between murder victims and their pet snitch networks (this is because a lot of the snitches are competing snitches, and snitch while conducting business to drive out competition.
Wipe out the profitability of killing competitors and killing snitches while reducing the risk factors in the business.
I suggested it once to a friend of mine who worked in my office and the president of our Metro Council at the time and he was like a deer in headlights (this was even before Breonna Taylor). Said that the way LMPD operated was the same as every department in the country and there was no way any kind of change like that would happen politically or managerially.
The problem is sticky, and police departments will continue advocating the same thing.
Chief Oshkosh
That thread by Cecilia Fate (last item of the OP) is a great walk-through of how Trump entirely caused the deaths of US personnel and Afghans with his “negotiations” with the Taliban. Well worth a read. I’ve never seen it spelled out all in one place.
Christ, if only we had a functioning press.
schrodingers_cat
@lowtechcyclist: Yes the expression may be used sarcastically but the mindset still exists.
zhena gogolia
OT, but this Desi Lydic person is really good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8GPuFSHkA8
mrmoshpotato
@Frankensteinbeck: 1926?
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: I am not sure that a moratorium on the phrase will affect the mindset.
Baud
TIL that the unabridged quote is “War is hell solely due to imperfect logistical foresight.”
japa21
The media at work:
Afghanistan withdrawal calamitous. No mention of what staying there would have meant.
Pre-election, not discussing how inflation was coming down month over month, only focusing on yearly numbers,
Today, talking about hiring slowing down because new job numbers met expectations, making reduction in unemployment rate secondary issue.
The greatest accomplishment of the right was to convince people the media was “liberal”.
BlueGuitarist
@Geminid:
Sherlock Holmes saying “You have been in Afghanistan, I perceive,” to Watson when they first meet in A Study in Scarlet is the first I read about Afghanistan, referring to the second of the 3 Anglo-Afghan wars. Fits the modern Sherlock with the more recent war. In any case, yes, pin the blame on Trump, where it belongs.
on a completely different matter, do you or other BJ election followers or Floridians, have any insights re Donna Deegan (D) for Jacksonville mayor in the runoff May 16?
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: It won’t. But somethings are best left unsaid. YMMV.
mrmoshpotato
@zhena gogolia: Yup. Watched that last night and laughed my ass off.
Eunicecycle
@rikyrah: that had to be one of the most shameful scenes I have ever seen. And even though she wasn’t expelled, how can Rep. Johnson even work with those other reps who voted to expel her? What about the 5 who voted not to expel her but voted to expel the 2 young black men? I really thought after the vote for her failed, it was because the Rs were getting a lot of pushback and would vote to keep Pearson, but no. Pure racism; it can’t be anything else.
The Moar You Know
Whereupon the GOP members will read it all aloud in public, omitting anything that would make the administration look good. This is bad strategy and bad policy. Just release the fucking thing.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: FWIW I don’t think I have used the phrase outside of a historical perspective and a discussion of social darwinism.
Roger Moore
@jonas:
This gets to my point about Iraq: it didn’t happen for one single reason. It happened because there was something in it for a whole bunch of different groups who might have resisted it otherwise. Political types like Rove got something to bash Democrats with. Bigots got to beat up on Those People. Angry people got a chance to get revenge for 9/11. Oil people had a chance to take over Iraq’s oil industry. The Military-Industrial Complex got to build America’s war machine and rebuild the Iraqi army. Neocons got a chance to show the world the US meant business and a chance to rebuild a country along their lines. Religious zealots got a chance to inch us closer to Armageddon. Alone, none of those groups probably could have created the war; together they made it inevitable.
Chief Oshkosh
@japa21:
You noticed that, too, eh? Hell, the talking head this morning was all doom and gloom and the numbers weren’t even out yet.
ABC, CBS, NBC, FNC — they are pathetic pieces of shit.
japa21
@The Moar You Know: You did see the phrase “highly classified” didn’t you? And if any of the “highly classified” details are mentioned by any of the GOP, there would be severe legal consequences.
BlueGuitarist
@Baud:
I didn’t know the full quote!
Compare James Madison urging us to
“reflect on the evils of a state of war, not only as it destroys the lives of the people, wastes their treasure, and corrupts their morals”
but also “its dreadful tendency” to increase executive power and undermine liberty
“Political Reflections,” 1799
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-17-02-0150
Baud
@BlueGuitarist: Sounds like Madison was a commie!
different-church-lady
Kinda funny how military deaths under Republican presidents are noble sacrifices, but military deaths under Democratic presidents are cause for the highest outrage.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@Baud:
Alexandra Petri has it covered
BlueGuitarist
@Baud:
alas, a slave owner, but his 1790s writings don’t get the attention they deserve. A tidy program from Madison’s National Gazette essay, “Parties” (1792)
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-14-02-0176
gvg
@Eunicecycle: I don’t think she is going to hang on long. When she was asked in an interview why she was not expelled she said it might have something to do with the color of her skin.
Baud
@BlueGuitarist:
A lot of the writings of that era are great. Their big problem was they had exceedingly narrow view of who counted as “people” and “the people.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: A huge part of liberal progress in the US has been to simply expand the group of people to whom those ideals apply.
different-church-lady
@Baud:
So advanced on democracy, so backwards on humanity.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Agreed.
Geoduck
The Fox News website at least HAS been harping on the Afghanistan report: Chaos! Biden Failure! The usual.
lowtechcyclist
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
OK, this claim surprises me. Between particular events, like the war’s end, or bin Laden being turned into shark food, how many columns were devoted by WaPo or FTFNYT columnists to the Afghan war? IOW, what was it doing to employ pundits during, say, the 2012-2019 period?
And turning from pundits to reporters for U.S. media, how many of the latter were in Afghanistan full-time during that period? I’m guessing one each from the FTFNYT and WaPo and the AP and maybe another newspaper or two, and the occasional trip over there for a few others.
Steeplejack
Ousted Tennessee legislator Justin Johnson gained 100,000 Twitter followers overnight—a fivefold increase. Way to go, GQP!
lowtechcyclist
@Steeplejack:
I’ve sailed on the Choptank, but it was more than half a century ago. My dad was into sailing, and we used to rent a ketch over there.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack: I followed him.
Jeffg166
The pearl clutching on fox will be spectacular.
RaflW
Republican-adjacent news outlets (ie: all of them, Katie) apparently haven’t already started releasing what they likely have gleaned from Congressional Republicans leaking the top-secret reports. I don’t believe for a nanosecond that the current GOP respects Top Secret anything, if it can damage Biden.
I expect they’re saving it till the Sunday papers and battery of Sunday morning shows (which have a widely known 2:1 Republican bias already).
Warblewarble
Let the Tennessee Klansmen finally cause the phrase “friends across the aisle” to be buried without honor. How I hate that craven phrase. Perhaps it would be permitted when used with savage sarcasm.
Kent
Caravans is better. It doesn’t follow the Michener formula of starting at the dawn of time and writing the entire history of a place. It is just a traditional novel set in Afghanistan about an American military attaché from the US embassy after WW2 who is tasked with finding an American woman who disappeared. So he has to dive head-first into rural Afghanistan where he discovers silk-road era nomads, falls in love, and has grand adventures.
different-church-lady
@Geoduck: Fan service.
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
✊️
ETA: Appalled to see that my “right on” fist emoji had fallen off my “most used” page. Good to have it back.
Mr. Bemused Senior
@lowtechcyclist:
Sarah Chayes
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack:
And, since simply following someone on Twitter is a pretty easy gesture, I also donated here.
RaflW
@jonas: I also think, had we stayed in Afghanistan, and indeed needed to reinvade as you point out, I’d strongly suspect that support for money and arms to Ukraine would have proved much, much harder domestically.
schrodingers_cat
Our morally decrepit media doesn’t care about Afghan deaths. Hell they didn’t care about Americans dying by the thousands every during COVID’s early days because their Orange sadistic boyfriend was in power. Afghanistan withdrawal is just a convenient stick to beat the Biden administration with
Kathleen
RaflW
@rikyrah: Yeah, this needs to be a topic today. And beyond.
It sounds like the ousted two can be back in the TN legislature relatively quickly. And they will now have a bunch of out of state small-donor money because this was flaming hot on social media last night, including ActBlue links, and as noted mid-thread here, they are gaining tons of followers.
The GOP has really unmasked themselves as thoroughly anti-democracy, anti-voter, and by not booting the white woman, the GOP were just right there in their white hoods, masks off, layin’ the racism bare.
They also platformed some very eloquent and powerful speeches by Black, young legislators who I think will motivate a lot of fellow young voters. Angry turnout in the TN capitol last night was heavily young and very clear in their analysis of the fascism.
National Dems need to go 100% on the attack over this. It is rich with the theme of anti-democracy that was part of the WI win (abortion of course being the other key in that race).
Kathleen
@zhena gogolia: Well it is the NYT. They have a pedigree of journalistic excellence to uphold. That was sarcasm just so I’m clear.
Kathleen
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Plus I suspect they enjoy the perks of being away from their homes.
mrmoshpotato
Why are these Dump-humping assholes yelling about Afghanistan again?
We all know Biden was a failure when he decided to get us out of Afghanistan, and shut up libtard! George W Bush was a wartime president!
evodevo
@Balconesfault:
Yes…this. Especially with respect to Iraqi oil, which Halliburton CEO Cheney coveted dearly…
Kathleen
@MomSense: I suspect there were other ulterior motives around their over the top rage towards Biden that were more personal in nature.
Barbara
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: The hysteria by the press is especially ironic considering how many articles I have read about taxpayer “fatigue” regarding Ukraine. I wonder how many years it takes to go from “fatigue” to so tired you don’t even notice how much money is being spent, because that’s kind of where we were in Afghanistan at least 10 years ago. They don’t want to go to Ukraine, because they can’t embed with US forces who will try to keep them safe. I am sure it is very frustrating for them.
Steeplejack
@Steeplejack:
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
I gave here.
scav
@Steeplejack: They is clever folk. Distinct talent that — flexible too, kicking one’s own face repeatedly while chasing the sporlight.
BlueGuitarist
@Baud:
@Omnes Omnibus:
Agreeing also.
Constitutional Amendments 15, 19, 24, and 26 expanded “We the people” to “form a more perfect Union” to include people of color, women, indigent (approximately), and youth.
23rd gave DC electoral votes, but we need DC statehood.
Re Wisconsin and other gerrymandering and Tennessee expulsions, and similar chicanery, maybe there’s a small chance we’ll see effective use of the Article IV section 4 guarantee to each state a government of majority rule elected through fair elections, or 14th amendment, section 2, reduction of representation in the US house for racist abridging of the right to vote, eg in FL and AL.
jonas
@RaflW: Good point. I think that’s absolutely right. I think in future history books, Biden’s decision to get out of Afghanistan when he did — despite the political price he paid — and going all-in to support Ukraine against naked Russian aggression will be viewed as the most consequential and important decisions of his administration.
Elizabelle
@jonas: Agree with you and RalfW.
Proud of President Biden. He did the right thing, and a hard thing. History will be kind to him. Kinder than it will be to most of his critics.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@japa21: These are people who go into SCIFs with their cell phones and snap selfies, actions most people would be jailed for.
They won’t suffer consequences.
JustRuss
That actually sounds pretty good. I’ve also read Chesapeake, and that’s enough epic Michener for me. But I might give Caravans a go.
Matt McIrvin
@Steeplejack: I like how fat and fractal the Choptank looks on maps, along with the gnarly peninsula next to it that ends in Tilghman Island. I like spotting it from an airplane.
BlueGuitarist
Re Tennessee
Nashville students mock TN house speaker the way Nashville hockey fans taunt opposing goalies:
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1644012806620979201
hockey version
https://www.facebook.com/HockeyNightInCanada/videos/nashville-fans-taunt-matt-murray/1655032887857414/
(sing name 3 times, “you suck,” then “it’s all your fault” 3 times)
Matt McIrvin
@Omnes Omnibus: It seems to be the only formula that ever works here:
It somehow manages to be quasi-historicist without being “originalist”, and comes off as patriotic… eventually.
lowtechcyclist
Off topic, but Texas passed a law forbidding men from wearing makeup when performing publicly.
Guess TFG will have to avoid Texas now.
Also, on TV broadcasts, pretty much everyone of either sex is made up before going on camera. Guess it’ll be all-female broadcast teams in Texas from now on. All-woman football broadcast teams will be fun to watch this fall!
Baud
@Matt McIrvin: The reality is a bit more complicated than that. Not every Founding Father idea is appropriate for modern society, so it’s not just about expanding who are considered the people. But I don’t think we should reject a good idea simply because the society that produced it engaged in evils we would not tolerate today.
BlueGuitarist
@Matt McIrvin:
Abraham Lincoln, speech on the Dred Scott decision:
“Chief Justice Taney, in his opinion in the Dred Scott case, admits that the language of the Declaration is broad enough to include the whole human family, but he and Judge Douglas argue that the authors of that instrument did not intend to include negroes….
I think the authors of that notable instrument intended to include all men, but they did not intend to declare all men equal in all respects. They did not mean to say all were equal in color, size, intellect, moral developments, or social capacity. They defined with tolerable distinctness, in what respects they did consider all men created equal- equal in “certain inalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” This they said, and this meant. They did not mean to assert the obvious untruth, that all were then actually enjoying that equality, nor yet, that they were about to confer it immediately upon them. In fact they had no power to confer such a boon. They meant simply to declare the right, so that the enforcement of it might follow as fast as circumstances should permit. They meant to set up a standard maxim for free society, which should be familiar to all, and revered by all; constantly looked to, constantly labored for, and even though never perfectly attained, constantly approximated, and thereby constantly spreading and deepening its influence, and augmenting the happiness and value of life to all people of all colors everywhere. The assertion that “all men are created equal” was of no practical use in effecting our separation from Great Britain; and it was placed in the Declaration, nor for that, but for future use. Its authors meant it to be, thank God, it is now proving itself, a stumbling block to those who in after times might seek to turn a free people back into the hateful paths of despotism.”
scav
@Matt McIrvin: Many, if not the vast most of us, are better in theory — especially those theories about ourselves and our ambitions — than in actual practice. We just don’t measure up to the promised sizzle on the packaging.
Baud
@scav: My parents certainly always told me that I was better in theory than in practice.
Matt McIrvin
@BlueGuitarist: And, to be honest, I’m not sure what Lincoln was saying there was strictly true. It wasn’t even true of him, let alone the guys who were writing about equality 80-90 years earlier. But he was going to use the lever he had.
And he followed the same pattern. Enforcement of the 13th-14th-15th Amendments was a complete joke for 100 years after they were passed and is arguably still somewhat a joke today. But that sweeping language did come in handy down the line.
gvg
@Matt McIrvin: That is why I appreciate The Declaration of Independence written by Jefferson. It’s beautiful. He and the founders didn’t live up to it. Children were taught it’s words generation after generation and grew up. A few more each generation thought wait a minute….and the pressure mounted. What if those words were not written? would quite as many people fought quite as hard for independence? Would we have improved our laws as soon?
It’s still bad to be a liar and a hypocrite, but I approve of lofty words to challenge us to live up to. Also it amuses me that it worked out that way.
scav
@lowtechcyclist: Ah, but will they make all purchasers drop trousers at the counter before making a sale? Or, is it ok for free Texan males to pack blusher but just not wear it in certain contexts, in which case the trouser dropping might have to be live, on air.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
You know how the right-wing often ends up believing their own lies. The dirty little secret is that the same method sometimes works to make a people into a better people.
different-church-lady
@Baud: What instrument were you practicing?
Baud
@different-church-lady:
Heh. I did the school marching band thing for a while. It’s hard to believe now because I am completely devoid of any musical ability.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
I didn’t realize it until this morning, but Governor Sassyboots has tripled down on his Disney war:
‘Buckle up’: DeSantis escalates Disney dispute, eyes hotel taxes and road tolls
He doesn’t want to go there, at all.
zhena gogolia
@lowtechcyclist:
You made me lol.
Baud
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
The Republican solution to all problems: raise taxes and increase regulations.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Baud:
It’s all about the liberty of the government to direct the free expression of the businesses that do business within the state, so long as the free expression matches what the autocrat wants to say and shits on the sort of powerless people the autocrat wants to remain powerless.
Baud
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
Slavery is freedom.
prostratedragon
@Baud: Pronouns, pronouns! (Your, my)
sab
@Baud: Seriously? Increase regulation? Use government to harass your opponents by applying arcane rules to them not you.
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@lowtechcyclist:
Holy shit – I looked at that statute that will pass the House and will get Abbott’s signature. It is unconstitutionally vague and overbroad anywhere outside of the Fifth Circuit.
It could sure as shit apply to any roleplay at a Rocky Horror movie showing, not to mention live performances of Rocky Horror, Hairspray, a Midsummer Night’s Dream and any one of dozens of famous theatrical productions.
Sadly, in each of those shutdowns and mass arrests, the arresting officers will arrive home safely (which is all that ever seems to matter).
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Baud:
The Lee Greenwood is playing in the back of my head even as we speak. You know, for freedom.
James E Powell
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
Bunny Colvin tried something like this.
Baud
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
Maybe the Dems can pass campaign finance reform by declaring political contributions harmful to children.
sdhays
The media fucking yawned when TFG released a bunch of Taliban fighters, “negotiated” directly with the Taliban (side-lining the government we were supposedly hoping would be able to fend for itself), and then started pulling out troops and equipment all year in 2020.
They woke up when things collapsed faster than expected, and yes, that’s on the intelligence services because I can only assume they failed to appreciate how completely sidelining the Afghan government might signal to the Afghan government and military that it was all over and there’s no use fighting it.
So the media can go fuck themselves trying to criticize Biden’s completion of Trump’s withdrawal.
jonas
So much for the KISS concert in Austin later this year, I guess…
Baud
@jonas:
Stop trying to put a positive spin on that law.
trollhattan
@Frankensteinbeck: The UK press has been far more aggressive criticizing the US Afghanistan pullout than our own. They still dream of empires long gone, I guess, and expected us to do the on-holding (see also, Brexit).
The dizzying speed with which the Afghan government collapsed is our best evidence that twenty years of propping them up, at vast cost in lives and money, was a wasted effort.
All that said, I weep for Afghan women and girls. It is they who ultimately lost everything.
scav
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Well, they can drive every circus away from TX but the place will still be littered with clowns — granted, bare-faced brazen clowns, but clowns nonetheless.
sab
@sdhays: The media had jobs on the line. A few rare reporters on site that everyone else put on the air every night. And all the other guys that had them in their rolodexes.
I realize that a lot of urban Afghans were working with all of these people hoping for the best, but I do not believe that anyone in US media in NY or DC gave a rats ass about these people. If they did they would have squacked a bit when W started a war there then bailed without a dime for the aftermath. Rural Afghans were just tired of being bombed.
Taliban is horrible, but we could not have done a worse job in countering them.
trollhattan
@lowtechcyclist: Every teevee newsreader just shat the makeup chair.
ETA every college with football and basketball must forbid students from painting school colors, etc. on themselves. But Texas doesn’t do college football or hoops now, do they?
raven
@sab: Fixed
I do not believe that anyone in US
media in NY or DCgave a rats ass about these people.Roger Moore
@Barbara:
The big difference between Ukraine and Afghanistan is that the Republicans are not 100% on-board with Ukraine, probably because Putin doesn’t like it. Putin was more than happy for us to be bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan, so even the Republicans who take their cues from him were willing to go along. Now that there’s a war Putin absolutely does not want us getting involved in, a bunch of Republicans have discovered how much they hate spending money on other countries’ wars.
sdhays
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: So, count me as a skeptic on this whole “oh no, he’s done it now and pissed off THE MOUSE!”. Disney is a very wealthy, well-known company with incredible influence in media and entertainment. In those areas, it’s obviously true that it holds an incredible amount of power.
However, DeathsAnus isn’t threatening a remake of Winnie the Pooh. He has the power of a government and the security of knowledge that he can light billions of dollars on fire without a majority of his constituents giving a shit. Disney, on the other hand, can sue a lot, but they can’t do the one thing that could actually hurt Gov. “Sassyboots” – they can’t leave Florida. Sassyboots, on the other hand, gets to siphon Florida tax dollars into shitty Republican lawyer cronies. Win-win!
Unless Disney is able to engineer an electoral catastrophe for Republicans in Florida in the next election (and I really don’t think their power extends that far), they’re just in for an unpleasant, expensive ride.
sdhays
@sab: They barely covered Trump pulling all the troops out. Trump wanted to fete the leader of the Taliban at Camp David, and they barely covered that. They were too busy following the daily Trump show (and happy about it). I remember reading about the withdrawal as some A18 type story and thinking, “Uh, this seems pretty significant. Why isn’t anyone talking about it? I guess it will be bad, but at least we’ll finally get out of there.”
sdhays
@raven: Yep.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: You will be amazed how much comes back to you when you try it again. I hand lifted a brush or a pencil to do anything artistic other than some DIY projects for home in the last 20 or so years.
It will come back to you if you take up music again.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat:
To be clear, I was never that talented at music.
J R in WV
@OzarkHillbilly:
Let me guess, famous golf professional Carl Jackson is a person of color?? Didn’t look, just a guess… Augusta still hates having to allow women and successful black gold pros on their despicable fields of green !!
ETA: Of course he is black as seen in photos hugging famous white golfer… Imagine my shock at being correct!?!
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: I am not particularly talented either. Talent is overrated. Practice is where it is at. Besides, art technique videos >> Doom scrolling
StringOnAStick
@J R in WV: I hate the way the Masters requires the caddies to be in those coveralls, it is insulting and demeaning. And that is done for a reason.
Baud
@schrodingers_cat: I’m not very patient either.
mrmoshpotato
@lowtechcyclist: Bye bye to all film and TV production in Texas!
Don’t these idiots have any real problems to tackle?
...now I try to be amused
The TN expulsions remind me of a quote from Adam Serwer’s 2019 article in The Atlantic, “A Crime by Any Name”:
The reaction to Ocasio-Cortez is unsurprising. Whatever the merits of her criticism, when those in power are caught abusing that power in ways that are morally indefensible and politically unpopular, they will always seek to turn an argument about oppression into a dispute about manners. The conversation then shifts from the responsibility of the state for the human lives it is destroying to whether those who object to that destruction have exhibited proper etiquette.
(Emphasis mine.)
MazeDancer
VP going to Nashville to meet with the Tennessee Three this afternoon.
To “lift them up”.
Go get ’em, Madame VP!
Origuy
Don’t nearly all theatrical productions use makeup on men and women? It’s how you get facial expressions past the first two rows.
brantl
@Frankensteinbeck: This is what happens when you sniff your own armpits, and tell yourself they smell like roses.
Citizen Alan
@sab: We could never possibly defeat the taliban so long as nearly half of all americans agree with the taliban on all social issues accept about facial hair and the appropriateness of wearing turbans.
J R in WV
If I was somehow required to be in TX and could be politically active I would send lawyers into every TV studio as the major news hour kicked off with search warrants to inspect every news reader’s face for illegal substances, and enforce that law to the hilt for everyone working in TV news.
Also pro singers in clubs and on tv in in church.
Oh, YEAH, holiness ministers, those TV preachers have to be wearing a ton of makeup on Sunday mornings… big fun possible here for someone with a perverse sense of humor and law enforcement.