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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Car Guys Open Thread: Is This How It’s *Supposed* to Work?

Car Guys Open Thread: Is This How It’s *Supposed* to Work?

by Anne Laurie|  June 10, 20237:55 pm| 58 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Tech News & Issues, Technology, Sociopaths

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As long as we're crossing rubicons all of these should just be immediately pulled off the road. Mayor pete I believe in you https://t.co/Kx924iQGd8

— Hemry, Local Bartender (@BartenderHemry) June 10, 2023

Gift link:https://t.co/Z2ajJ57747

— bklyn skater (@bklyn_skater) June 10, 2023

… “If it had been a smaller child,” Lynch said, “the child would be dead.”

The crash in North Carolina’s Halifax County, where a futuristic technology came barreling down a rural highway with devastating consequences, was one of 736 U.S. crashes since 2019 involving Teslas in Autopilot mode — far more than previously reported, according to a Washington Post analysis of National Highway Traffic Safety Administration data. The number of such crashes has surged over the past four years, the data shows, reflecting the hazards associated with increasingly widespread use of Tesla’s futuristic driver-assistance technology as well as the growing presence of the cars on the nation’s roadways.

The number of deaths and serious injuries associated with Autopilot also has grown significantly, the data shows. When authorities first released a partial accounting of accidents involving Autopilot in June 2022, they counted only three deaths definitively linked to the technology. The most recent data includes at least 17 fatal incidents, 11 of them since last May, and five serious injuries.

Mitchell survived the March crash but suffered a fractured neck and a broken leg and had to be placed on a ventilator. He still suffers from memory problems and has trouble walking. His great-aunt said the incident should serve as a warning about the dangers of the technology…

Tesla’s 17 fatal crashes reveal distinct patterns, The Post found: Four involved a motorcycle. Another involved an emergency vehicle. Meanwhile, some of Musk’s decisions — such as widely expanding the availability of the features and stripping the vehicles of radar sensors — appear to have contributed to the reported uptick in incidents, according to experts who spoke with The Post…

Former NHTSA senior safety adviser Missy Cummings, a professor at George Mason University’s College of Engineering and Computing, said the surge in Tesla crashes is troubling.

“Tesla is having more severe — and fatal — crashes than people in a normal data set,” she said in response to the figures analyzed by The Post. One likely cause, she said, is the expanded rollout over the past year and a half of Full Self-Driving, which brings driver-assistance to city and residential streets. “The fact that … anybody and everybody can have it. … Is it reasonable to expect that might be leading to increased accident rates? Sure, absolutely.”…

Musk rebuttal: Look, it’s only a problem when used by ordinary drivers in the real world. That’s not the kind of situation it was designed for!

I think all self-driving cars should be recalled but I'm willing to compromise and say just the company causing almost all the deaths pic.twitter.com/bNJfaSTNuu

— Hemry, Local Bartender (@BartenderHemry) June 10, 2023

Related topic — I get the impression the Cybertruck would be even more dangerous, except it’s unlikely it will ever make it as far as a public release:

nothing i have seen since it was announced leads me to believe that the cybertruck will ever be real production vehicle, and nothing i have read in this article dissuades me from that position. https://t.co/XZSSnUq4JZ

— GOLIKEHELLMACHINE (@golikehellmachi) June 9, 2023

like, this is not an easy problem to design or engineer your way out of. it may not even be possible to do so. pic.twitter.com/4syvYA0vBR

— GOLIKEHELLMACHINE (@golikehellmachi) June 9, 2023

Most cars are basically a steel cage reinforced through a careful arrangement of high-performance steels, which you then hang the lighter bodywork on. There is a reason this is the industry standard. Elon chose to do things differently, & that simply did not work out for him. pic.twitter.com/PEJqw0rLQS

— chatham harrison is tending his garden (@chathamharrison) June 9, 2023

I don't doubt his willingness to ship a crappy product, but I do wonder if the SpaceX steel's unsuitability is just insurmountable.

— chatham harrison is tending his garden (@chathamharrison) June 9, 2023

The 2nd gen roadster was supposed to be on sale starting in 2021 and all that has ever been seen of it is a single prototype.

— your himbo boyfriend (@swolecialism) June 9, 2023

God, that's right, musk said you were gonna be able to get cold gas thrusters on your second gen roadster as an option https://t.co/PudQupk9v8

— your himbo boyfriend (@swolecialism) June 9, 2023

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Reader Interactions

58Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 8:04 pm

    Big win for Tesla on charging technology standard.  GM and Ford are adopting it. Tesla’s headstart on charging stations paid off.

  2. 2.

    Math Guy

    June 10, 2023 at 8:04 pm

    We should be investing in bicycle and public transit infrastructure.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 8:05 pm

    @Math Guy:

    Many places are doing that too.

  4. 4.

    mvr

    June 10, 2023 at 8:10 pm

    One would expect the lawsuits to be a problem for the company. They were with the Pinto, IIRC.

  5. 5.

    Another Scott

    June 10, 2023 at 8:13 pm

    @Baud: Still, to get the IRA money, he has to put standard plugs on the Superchargers.

    Whitehouse.gov (from February 15):

    […]

    Today, companies including Tesla, General Motors, EVgo, Pilot, Hertz and bp, among others, are announcing new commitments to expand their networks by thousands of public charging ports in the next two years, using private funds to complement federal dollars and putting the nation’s EV charging goals even closer within reach.

    […]

    Tesla, for the first time, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs, making at least 7,500 chargers available for all EVs by the end of 2024. The open chargers will be distributed across the United States. They will include at least 3,500 new and existing 250 kW Superchargers along highway corridors to expand freedom of travel for all EVs, and Level 2 Destination Charging at locations like hotels and restaurants in urban and rural locations. All EV drivers will be able to access these stations using the Tesla app or website. Additionally, Tesla will more than double its full nationwide network of Superchargers, manufactured in Buffalo, New York.

    […]

    Cynical me is thinking that the Detroit carmakers are announcing these deals with Tesla to get some buzz and try to make up for the fact that they aren’t selling enough EVs yet.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  6. 6.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 8:14 pm

    @Another Scott:

    If they’re not selling, it’s because they can’t build them fast enough.

  7. 7.

    BeautifulPlumage

    June 10, 2023 at 8:14 pm

    I hadn’t realized it was that bad. We have a ton of Teslas on the roads in the suburbs around Seattle.

  8. 8.

    WaterGirl

    June 10, 2023 at 8:17 pm

    @BeautifulPlumage: I’m sure there are recalls on the self-driving cars with problems. //

  9. 9.

    BeautifulPlumage

    June 10, 2023 at 8:19 pm

    @WaterGirl: Musk: “Recall? I don’t recall hearing of any problems.”

  10. 10.

    BeautifulPlumage

    June 10, 2023 at 8:20 pm

    @WaterGirl: BTW any updates on Finnigan?

  11. 11.

    Another Scott

    June 10, 2023 at 8:20 pm

    @Baud: Yup, but that’s not a good thing.

    InsideEVs.com:

    In Q1, the company delivered 968 Lyriq, which is an order of magnitude more than in Q4 2022 (86) and Q3 2022 (36 units). That’s about 2.7 percent of the brand’s total volume.

    300-ish cars a month isn’t great.

    GM’s CEO said on Marketplace this week that they’re ramping up and are betting the company that they’ll be selling millions a year in a couple of years. And I have no doubt by the early 2030s EVs will be everywhere (and probably won’t all be 5-6000 pound monsters). But GM and Ford and Honda and Toyota too many others are late to the EV production game. And it’s hurting them.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  12. 12.

    hells littlest angel

    June 10, 2023 at 8:23 pm

    @Baud: It’s probably a bigger win for Ford and GM. Suddenly there are charging stations for their cars.

  13. 13.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 8:24 pm

    @Another Scott:

    EV pioneer Tesla remains the market leader, with 64% of the share, down from 66% in Q2 and 75% in Q1. The declining share was inevitable as legacy automakers look to catch Tesla’s success, racing to fill the growing demand for electric vehicles.

    Ford, GM, and Hyundai brands are leading in this respect as they scale production of popular EV models such as the Mustang Mach-E, Chevy Bolt EV, and Hyundai IONIQ 5.

    Despite rising prices (not just with EVs), US consumers are buying electric vehicles at a record pace. New government incentives, such as the EV tax credit provided in the Inflation Reduction Act, are expected to drive demand even higher in the next few years.

    The United States has now crossed 6% in total EV market share, working toward its goal of a 50% share by 2030.

  14. 14.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 8:26 pm

    @hells littlest angel:

    Agreed.  There will be a charging converter, apparently, so hopefully it won’t really matter what kind of car you have.

  15. 15.

    bbleh

    June 10, 2023 at 8:34 pm

    Tesla’s 17 fatal crashes reveal distinct patterns, The Post found: Four involved a motorcycle. Another involved an emergency vehicle. Meanwhile, some of Musk’s decisions — such as widely expanding the availability of the features and stripping the vehicles of radar sensors — appear to have contributed to the reported uptick in incidents, according to experts who spoke with The Post…

    One presumes Tesla has been doing the same kind of analysis, only much earlier and faster and more in depth.  Right?  (Uh … is this thing on? tap tap)

  16. 16.

    bbleh

    June 10, 2023 at 8:35 pm

    There’s an art to being “bleeding edge.” It doesn’t appear Musk has the feel for that.

  17. 17.

    Another Scott

    June 10, 2023 at 8:40 pm

    @Baud: Tesla’s fall in market share is not unexpected – they had nowhere to go but down.

    VW/Audi is rising quickly.

    Everyone is afraid of the Chinese brands (but presumably they won’t be exporting to the US anytime soon).

    I got a Kia Niro PHEV at the end of April.  It was made in Korea.  (We don’t have the home infrastructure, yet, for a full EV.)  My commute is such that I only need to charge it at 120V at home every other day and it almost never touches the gas.  When I need to take longer trips, it acts like a normal hybrid, and I don’t have to drag around 1-2000 pounds of extra batteries.  It’s perfect for me.

    I would have liked to buy a US car, but nothing matched my needs and wants as well as the Niro PHEV.  (I wish it were smaller.) I’m assuming fairly rapid advances in EVs in the next 5-10 years, and am not planning on having the Niro that long (but who knows what the future will bring).  Already, the Volvo EX30 looks interesting…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  18. 18.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 8:47 pm

    @Another Scott:

    Yeah, I think the used EV market is going to grow rapidly.

  19. 19.

    oatler

    June 10, 2023 at 8:47 pm

    This story dovetails nicely with MSM’s seasonal Reefer Madness clickbait (“some say it’s time to rethink legal cannabis”).

  20. 20.

    WaterGirl

    June 10, 2023 at 8:48 pm

    @BeautifulPlumage: I have heard nothing since I last wrote you.  Thanks for the reminder to write again.

    edit: Okay, I just dropped them a line.

  21. 21.

    twbrandt

    June 10, 2023 at 8:50 pm

    @Baud: the legacy auto manufacturers are catching up to Tesla. And they know how to build cars at scale.

    Ford was first to market with its electric F-150 and hybrid Maverick pickup, while Tesla is still farting around trying to figure out how to build its ridiculous cybertruck.

  22. 22.

    TriassicSands

    June 10, 2023 at 8:51 pm

    @Math Guy: We should be investing in bicycle and public transit infrastructure.

    Huh? You do know which country you are living in, don’t you?

    Bicycles: They defeat the whole purpose of a sedentary lifestyle.

    Public Transit: That question was settled decades ago. The decision was to limit mass transit to inadequate, uncomfortable, and unattractive systems that would encourage all but the poor to own and operate the largest, most wasteful and polluting vehicles possible.

    Seriously, of course you are right, but neither of those options is likely to meet with widespread support.

  23. 23.

    Tony G

    June 10, 2023 at 8:53 pm

    Shouldn’t the NTSB be just banning these death machines?  What the hell is going on here?

  24. 24.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 8:59 pm

    @twbrandt:

    Agree. A 10% drop in market share in 9 months is pretty steep.

  25. 25.

    Timill

    June 10, 2023 at 9:01 pm

    @BeautifulPlumage: I understand from Marcia that Finnegan’s people found a temporary foster to treat him, and they have since suffered a foster fail (not that we know anything about that) so he has a permanent home.

    I apologise for the lack of followup here – it’s been an interesting month.

  26. 26.

    Ken

    June 10, 2023 at 9:03 pm

    @Baud: As they say, “The great thing about standards is there are so many to choose from.”  Hopefully this doesn’t end up with everyone lugging around a trunkful of converters — but the history of power plugs, and more recently of the “universal” computer cables, isn’t encouraging.

  27. 27.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 9:05 pm

    @Ken:

    I think there are only two right now. Tesla’s and the open standard. Tesla has built out a lot more charging stations, however, so they had a leg up.

  28. 28.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 10, 2023 at 9:07 pm

    @Another Scott: @Baud: @Another Scott: I know that GMC is coming for the Snowflake across all of the electric sectors. The battery development they did for the Chevy EVs, as well as their other subordinate brands, coming online now – I think they call them Ultium – isn’t just for the cars and trucks and SUVs, it is also for home and business electrification and is being set up as a potential direct competitor to the Tesla power banks for home use.

  29. 29.

    Sure Lurkalot

    June 10, 2023 at 9:10 pm

    Teslas are very popular in Denver. Not sure if they yet outnumber the seemingly ubiquitous Subarus. I am wary of them especially on highways.

    We had a fairly vibrant middle class building until Reagan and the hoovering of ungodly wealth to miscreants like Elon Musk.  Fuck that evil fuck with far too much influence. I feel dirty touting any of his accomplishments.

  30. 30.

    mvr

    June 10, 2023 at 9:12 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: This would be good as many of us won’t buy Tesla anything.

    I’ve set up a remote off grid solar system w batteries and all that, but it would be good to be able to have some choices for here in the city where it would be grid connected until lightning strikes (so to speak).

  31. 31.

    different-church-lady

    June 10, 2023 at 9:14 pm

    I keep getting told that this is fine because human drivers make mistakes too.

  32. 32.

    Marc

    June 10, 2023 at 9:14 pm

    @Another Scott: Everyone is afraid of the Chinese brands (but presumably they won’t be exporting to the US anytime soon).

    The 2025 Volvo EX30 was just announced at a base price of $36K, shipping in late spring 2024.  While “Volvo” is a Swedish brand, it is wholly owned by the Chinese Geely company, which will manufacture the EX30 in China. This is the first car I’ve considered pre-ordering, perfect size and price for our now empty nest family, and it’s not a Tesla.

    I just got back from a vacation, lots of Teslas on the road in Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Osaka, I assume made in the Tesla Shanghai factory.  I also saw quite a few Chinese BYD electric cars in Hong Kong, not at all bad looking.

  33. 33.

    BeautifulPlumage

    June 10, 2023 at 9:15 pm

    @Timill:

    @WaterGirl:

    Yay, Finn has a permanent home! Very glad to hear this. I’m sure my second kitty will find me when the time is right.

  34. 34.

    TriassicSands

    June 10, 2023 at 9:17 pm

    @Baud: Yeah, I think the used EV market is going to grow rapidly.

    One issue affecting the used EV market will likely be the cost of battery replacement. With gas/diesel vehicles the biggest repair/replacement issues facing used vehicle buyers have been transmission, clutch, and less commonly the engine. But the cost of a replacement battery is currently still extremely high. That has to come down significantly or vehicle owners could face a crushing post-buy expense. When someone for whom cost is an issue looks to buy, knowing the expected future life expectancy of the battery will be important.

    Another potential problem with the batteries, which I’ve not seen discussed (though I’m sure it has been), is the disposal of “dead” batteries. How much is recyclable? How toxic will the useless batteries be and what will the disposal  involve, including cost?

  35. 35.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 9:17 pm

    @Marc:

    Musk is less toxic overseas. And Tesla tech is kind of cool.

  36. 36.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 9:18 pm

    @TriassicSands:

    Yes, lots of issues to still be worked out.

  37. 37.

    rekoob

    June 10, 2023 at 9:18 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: The Ultium platform is indeed GM’s current strategy, and it’s been expanded to Honda/Acura (Prologue/ZDX, respectively), as well as the Pure Watercraft boating and other applications. Recently, however, GM gave an indication that Ultium may not be the be-all and end-all of EV architecture. The North American Charging Standard (NACS), which is Tesla’s connector to the grid, is likely to become the default around here.

    I’m eager to jump in, but as a lessee, not a buyer. Lower upfront and, arguably, lower backend costs.

  38. 38.

    dm

    June 10, 2023 at 9:25 pm

    They don’t need to do a recall — Teslas can update their software over wireless. It’s probably a simple patch to disable the self driving features.

    I think people paid extra to get the self driving feature however, so, while no need for a recall, there’s probably a need to issue refunds.

    A friend has a Tesla. I keep urging him to get something to smash his windows in case it catches fire and won’t unlock or open the windows.

  39. 39.

    raven

    June 10, 2023 at 9:28 pm

    My 66 chevy truck with a steel dashboard and steering wheel that would go right through your chest in a head on is safer!

  40. 40.

    Adam L Silverman

    June 10, 2023 at 9:32 pm

    @rekoob: I’ve been looking at the EV Blazer SS.

  41. 41.

    Marc

    June 10, 2023 at 9:34 pm

    @Baud: Musk is less toxic overseas. And Tesla tech is kind of cool.

    A once close friend of mine bought a Tesla 3 two years ago.  No insult intended (if you own one), but I was not impressed with the build quality, nor was it very comfortable (for me).  He also insisted on showing off the beta “full self driving” while we were on a highway in slow moving traffic.  Scared the shit out of me as it tried multiple times to change to an adjacent faster moving lane, finally diving into the lane in front of a car moving 20 MPH faster, resulting in much horn blowing.  The audio system also seemed locked into right-wing talk radio shows, but I can’t entirely blame that on the car.  We aren’t friends anymore.

  42. 42.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 9:36 pm

    @Marc:

    I’ve heard the build quality is terrible, so that’s an independent reason to avoid them. And the interior controls are all on the screen, which is not ideal.

    But the technology I’ve seen in them is pretty neat.

    ETA: I thought it was comfortable, but I haven’t been in every model.

  43. 43.

    trollhattan

    June 10, 2023 at 9:40 pm

    Self-driving is an unfortunate distraction to converting the fleet to EVs. It’s orders of magnitude more complicated than the proponents believe, or at least tell us they believe. “Whee, I can TEXT again!” Fuck that, drive.

    Saw my first F-150 Lightning yesterday; more accurately, heard it because it otherwise looks identical (to me) and we are inundated with the damn things.

  44. 44.

    Marc

    June 10, 2023 at 9:42 pm

    @TriassicSands: One issue affecting the used EV market will likely be the cost of battery replacement.

    Oddly enough, this is why I wouldn’t consider buying a Chevy Bolt at this point, as GM has already demonstrated with the Volt that it will stop making replacement batteries only a few years after it stops making the car.

  45. 45.

    Baud

    June 10, 2023 at 9:45 pm

    @Marc:

    According to Snopes, that was a unique situation.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/chevy-volt-battery-invoice/

  46. 46.

    karen marie

    June 10, 2023 at 10:11 pm

    Speaking of “how it’s supposed to work,” I figured you kids would be interested in an update on George/Anthony Devolder/Santos’ appeal to stop his benefactors being revealed:

    In a letter to U.S. District Judge Joanna Seybert … suggested that the guarantors are family members, not lobbyists or political donors …

    My question is, are these the same family members who “donated” to his campaign?

  47. 47.

    Another Scott

    June 10, 2023 at 10:12 pm

    @TriassicSands: One big problem with battery pack designs if one wants to have recycling and remanufacturing (to (with luck) reduce costs and the environmental impact), is figuring out what to do about the glues:

    Another challenge is efficiently cracking open EV batteries. Nissan’s rectangular Leaf battery module can take 2 hours to dismantle. Tesla’s cells are unique not only for their cylindrical shape, but also for the almost indestructible polyurethane cement that holds them together.

    Engineers might be able to build robots that could speed battery disassembly, but sticky issues remain even after you get inside the cell, researchers note. That’s because more glues are used to hold the anodes, cathodes, and other components in place. One solvent that recyclers use to dissolve cathode binders is so toxic that the European Union has introduced restrictions on its use, and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency determined last year that it poses an “unreasonable risk” to workers.

    “In terms of economics, you’ve got to disassemble … [and] if you want to disassemble, then you’ve got to get rid of glues,” says Andrew Abbott, a chemist at the University of Leicester and Thompson’s adviser.

    They’re solvable problems, and need to be solved, but there’s going to be a lot of competition to be chosen as the standard (with lots of money at stake).

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  48. 48.

    Marc

    June 10, 2023 at 10:16 pm

    @Baud: According to Snopes, that was a unique situation.

    Well, I’ll just admit to being biased against GM cars, never owned one.  Random only slightly related car story, from a different world:  back in 1960 when I was 6 and my sister was 4, my Dad bought a brand new powder blue Alfa Romeo Spyder.  The whole family used to go blasting around twisty roads in New England with the top down, Mom in the passenger seat, myself in her lap, and my sister on the transmission tunnel between the seats.  One night when Mom wasn’t along, we were driving through Cambridge and my Dad had to make a sudden stop.  My sister was on her usual tunnel perch, and while my Dad’s arm swung out to protect her reflexively, she still smacked into the dashboard.  Luckily, we were right next to a hospital, she needed only a few stitches.  The real injuries took place when we got home. There was a heated argument after we went to bed, a few days later the Alfa was gone and a sensible ’62 Chevy II Nova (complete with 4 seat belts) was in its place.  My Dad hated that car with a passion and eventually replaced it with a Volvo.  So, yeah, no Bolt, I’ll take an EX30, even if it is Chinese 8^)

  49. 49.

    Ruckus

    June 10, 2023 at 10:56 pm

    @Math Guy:

    Los Angeles county is very much doing that and has been for a number of years. Now it doesn’t cover all areas but we have an electric train system that soon will go from the far eastern edge to Long Beach and from Santa Monica to East LA. And those are just 2 of the lines, more are contemplated and under construction, including the subway that will go from Union Station downtown to West LA and goes from Union Station to North Hollywood. I frequently travel from the eastern San Gabriel Valley to West LA, all by public transportation, a distance of approximately 50 miles, all but 5 miles of it on electric trains.

  50. 50.

    Ruckus

    June 10, 2023 at 11:03 pm

    @TriassicSands:

    Welcome to Los Angeles.

    See my post above.

  51. 51.

    Another Scott

    June 10, 2023 at 11:10 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    [that guy]

    GMC is the truck company (stands for General Motors Truck Company). GM is the giant overall corporation.

    [/that guy]

    I wish all the US battery alternatives luck. The world needs options to Tesla and the US needs robust and resilient domestic supplies.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  52. 52.

    Another Scott

    June 10, 2023 at 11:22 pm

    @Marc: Good point. The EX30 does indeed look interesting (though I wish they hadn’t so blatantly copied the Model 3 single screen controls – cars aren’t refrigerators or billboards).

    I was thinking of BYD and SAIC and GAC Group and so forth.

    Geely is a complicated beast, having bought several foreign brands (Volvo, Lotus, Polestar, etc.).

    In the Before Times, there was a glut in worldwide auto manufacturing. That seems set to resume as everyone transitions to EVs. I expect a few years of high worldwide demand where everyone wants one for lower operating costs and lower emissions, where all of the manufacturers will be making lots of money, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there was again issues with manufacturers going under because of lack of demand afterwards…

    Interesting times.

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  53. 53.

    Citizen Alan

    June 10, 2023 at 11:36 pm

    @Math Guy: The vomit people will never accept public transit that requires them to ride alongside people they hate. I’ve always suspected that, long-term, public transit was doomed when Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat.

  54. 54.

    NotMax

    June 10, 2023 at 11:44 pm

    Kudos due Volvo (Chinese owned) for soon tapping into the less than luxuriously (and ludicrously) priced American EV market. Although having a blank panel where instrumentation in the driver’s direct line of sight would normally be is, IMHO, an unwise decision.

    And I see Marc got there first up above.

  55. 55.

    Sister Golden Bear

    June 10, 2023 at 11:49 pm

    Given that many dealerships are loath to sell EV (which don’t require much service, where the real money is), I fully expect one of the big legacy automakers to eventually buy out Tesla.

    Not only can they fix the build quality, but it gives them the opportunity to move into Tesla’s direct sales model, and potentially release their own offerings under the Tesla label, or (more likely) under new sub-brand under Tesla.  Presumably that doesn’t cause problems with its existing legal contracts with dealers because it’s a different company doncha know. Same sort of play Saturn did.

  56. 56.

    Another Scott

    June 11, 2023 at 12:12 am

    @Sister Golden Bear: There have been state lawsuits against Tesla’s direct-sales model. Dunno how that would work if someone else with a dealer network bought them.

    I have vague recollection that Ford or GM or someone was talking a year or more ago about potentially having their EVs be available by direct sales, but it’s too late to look that up now.

    Auto dealers are one of the more powerful lobby groups. There would be a lot of battles if they felt they were being squeezed out.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  57. 57.

    Chris T.

    June 11, 2023 at 1:28 am

    Miscellaneous notes:

    There are too many standards for car chargers now, but we’re settling down into two at this point, called “CCS2” and “NACS” when being generic. The CCS2 chargers are the big ones at EA and ChargePoint stations here in the US, and are pretty widespread in Europe. The NACS ones use the Tesla form factor, but are not in fact the original Tesla chargers: they use the same electrical signals as CCS2. So this means it should be trivial to produce dual NACS+CCS2 setups.

    EV batteries are designed to last 10 years and are proving to last longer in many cases. However, there are a bunch of manufacturing and testing issues. It’s really hard to know whether something will last 10 years until it’s been out for 20 years. Recycling of the key metals (lithium, cobalt, manganese, etc depending on the exact battery chemistry) is not difficult but recycling of all the packaging is another matter, as someone noted above.

    Every once in a while someone cites lithium vs (say) zinc reserves as “proof” that Li-ion batteries can’t be used worldwide, but in fact lithium reserves are climbing steadily: it was never seen as profitable to “reserve” for mining before, whereas stuff like copper and zinc was, so the “known reserves” of other metals are huge comparatively, but there’s plenty of lithium.

    Fire (as noted earlier) is a big issue, mainly because the electrolytes used with current battery technologies produce nasty fires that are hard to put out. Fortunately battery fires are much rarer than gasoline fires, so it’s a tradeoff: a lot of less-nasty gasoline fires (that still maim and kill) vs a few really nasty fires. Solid-state Li-ion batteries supposedly promise to fix this, and maybe also improve recycling, but all I can say here is “we’ll see”—existing Li-ion batteries benefit a lot from the fact that they’re used in everything now, from cell phones to cars to watches to smoke/CO detectors…

  58. 58.

    Geminid

    June 11, 2023 at 2:36 am

    @Math Guy: The Infrastructure bill funds large investments in public transit infrastructure, with $10 billion for New York City’s MTA alone. There is also $60 billion for AMTRAK which, according to that AMTRAK’s chief exceeds total previous capital investment in the system since it was founded in the 1970s. We need to do more in these areas but it’s a good start.

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