Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Jesus watching the most hateful people claiming to be his followers

“Facilitate” is an active verb, not a weasel word.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

Anne Laurie is a fucking hero in so many ways. ~ Betty Cracker

Sometimes the world just tells you your cat is here.

Innocent people do not delay justice.

75% of people clapping liked the show!

Not loving this new fraud based economy.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

With all due respect and assumptions of good faith, please fuck off into the sun.

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

Giving in to doom is how we fail to fight for ourselves & one another.

Trump’s cabinet: like a magic 8 ball that only gives wrong answers.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

Republicans don’t lie to be believed, they lie to be repeated.

Democracy cannot function without a free press.

Today’s gop: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

Disagreements are healthy; personal attacks are not.

Republicans do not trust women.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

If America since Jan 2025 hasn’t broken your heart, you haven’t loved her enough.

You are here: Home / Open Threads / Surrender! (Open Thread)

Surrender! (Open Thread)

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Live from Fulton County, Georgia, via CNN:

Ex-Trump attorney John Eastman, a co-defendant in the Georgia 2020 election case, surrenders 

John Eastman, the right-wing lawyer who advised former President Donald Trump on plots to disrupt Congress’ certification of the 2020 election results, has surrendered on Georgia state charges stemming from the racketeering case.

Eastman is an alleged co-conspirator in the racketeering case that Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis has brought against the former president and co-defendants accused of participating in schemes to meddle with Georgia’s election. Eastman was indicted by a grand jury on eight other counts in addition to the RICO charge.

Eastman devised and promoted a six-step plan for Pence to overturn Biden’s election victory while presiding over the Electoral College certification on January 6. He also urged Georgia state lawmakers to appoint fake GOP electors to replace the legitimate slate of Democratic electors. A bipartisan array of legal scholars have said Eastman’s schemes were unconstitutional.

Seeing this indicted co-conspirator booked is especially gratifying because Eastman wasn’t a bit-player among the grubby MAGA rabble who tried to overthrow the government. He’s a fancy Federalist Society law professor at a wingnut university. He once clerked for Crooked Clarence and practiced at a white-shoe law firm. He’s a senior fellow at the tweedy fascist society known as the Claremont Institute.

Eastman gave an interview a few weeks back to a Claremont Institute colleague. It was ill-advised because Eastman basically admitted his role in the coup attempt, which probably won’t help his case at the upcoming trial. Here’s an excerpt of Josh Marshall’s remarks on that interview:

In a way I admire Eastman for coming clean. I don’t know whether he sees the writing on the wall and figures he might as well lay his argument out there or whether his grad school political theory pretensions and pride got the better of him and led him to state openly this indefensible truth. Either way he’s done it and not in any way that’s retrievable as a slip of the tongue. They knew it was a coup and they justified it to themselves in those terms. He just told us. They believed they were justified in trying to overthrow the government, whether because of OSHA chair size regulations or drag queens or, more broadly, because the common herd of us don’t understand the country’s “founding principles” the way Eastman and his weirdo clique do. But they did it. He just admitted it. And now they’re going to face the consequences.

Eastman’s justification for the coup was that Biden’s election posed an intolerable threat to the republic, so they moved to overturn the results on the same principle that the founders used to overthrow British rule in the Revolutionary War. But as Marshall points out, the existing government will try to stop you from overthrowing it, and if you don’t win, you’re toast.

The founders knew that. That’s why at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Benjamin Franklin remarked, “We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.”

The founders won their war and achieved independence. Eastman and his motley crew of buffoons lost, so they’re surrendering one by one at the Fulton County Jail and will be tried for conspiracy. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

272Comments

  2. 2.

    eversor

    No, you got a fact wrong.  Eastman’s reason was the same as Barr’s and Alito’s.  Which is that any liberal winning is a mortal threat to Christianity and it’s natural order and thus anything is allowed because Christianity.  It’s Christianity, every fucking time.  Deal with that or give the fuck up.

  3. 3.

    Almost Retired

    This is hardly a political or legal observation of great insight…but…..Eastman is only 63 years old.  Look at him!  Being a reactionary, election-denying conservative insurrectionist ages you faster than chain smoking in the desert sun.

  4. 4.

    Scout211

    CNN reported that Scott Hall was the first to surrender.

    ETA:  I didn’t even remember who he was because he is local. Sounds like he wasn’t one of the planners, he was one of the doers.

    CNN  

    The first of former President Donald Trump’s 18 co-defendants in the Georgia election case turned himself in at the Fulton County jail on Tuesday, a process that will be an early signal around how other surrenders are handled.

    Scott Hall, who works as a bail bondsman in Atlanta, was charged by Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis with crimes related to his alleged involvement in the Coffee County, Georgia, voting systems breach.
    . . .

    Hall is facing seven charges, including the racketeering count that’s central to Willis’ prosecution, as well as several charges stemming from the Coffee County allegations.

    He spent hours inside a restricted area of the Coffee County election office when voting systems were breached in January 2021. The breach was connected to efforts by pro-Trump conspiracy theorists to find voter fraud. Hall was captured on surveillance video at the office, on the day of the breach. He testified before the grand jury in the Fulton County case and acknowledged that he gained access to a voting machine.

  9. 9.

    Mike in NC

    Here’s an excerpt from a response I just wrote to our local Trump-humping newspaper:

    My wife noted that in recent weeks the {paper’s name withheld} has been running a lot of Letters to the Editor decrying somebody named Hunter Biden and his nefarious father, Joe. Seems like there’s something out there that desperate Republican politicians and their supporters need to change the subject about.

    Wonder why? I read the letters and was amused by how ridiculous they were, and a quick online check through White Pages online revealed that they were all written by men in their 70s and 80s. Here’s a newsflash to those guys: the future of this country isn’t dependent on elderly, reactionary Republicans pining to live in the 1950s (or is it the 1850s?).

    I was never ashamed or embarrassed to be an American until an imbecile named Donald Trump showed up one day. He rode down a golden escalator in a tacky tower paid for by his criminal, tax cheating, slumlord father, and he ranted to the world about how much he hated all people who weren’t born rich and white, like him. He pledged to build a “great wall” on the southern border and promised that Mexico would pay for it. Were millions of people actually stupid enough to believe that? Suffice it to say no such wall was ever built; just another of the many scams and swindles for which the Trump family is known.

  13. 13.

    P Thomas

    And, comically, his “California Bar” trial resumes today after starting in June, and then being “on hiatus” for two months. The California Bar Association has shown itself to be astonishingly corrupt. Any search for “corrupt California State Bar” will bring you all sorts of horror stories.
    https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/girardi-probe-reveals-an-internally-corrupt-california-state-bar
    Why in the world would the California Bar continue this charade, and simply pull this guys law license,  proves how corrupt it really is. You can steal money from clients for years, or you can steal the whole country! What do we care!
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-22/john-eastman-bar-trial-resumes-after-trump-indictment

  15. 15.

    Marmot

    John Eastman going to prison is right up there with seeing Enrique Tarrio and Stewart Rhodes get it. Maybe more so. It’s hard to imagine being so corrupt as Eastman.

  17. 17.

    ArchTeryx

    @Alison Rose: His maniacal followers aren’t enough to win diddly. That was proven in 2018, 2020 and 2022. He needs a lot of “moderate” Republican *voters* (aka independents) and even some corporate Ds to vote for him to win. Biden doesn’t have the extreme headwinds of Hillary and the media’s done their best to generate them.

  19. 19.

    p.a.

    One thing I have pointed out to any tRumpists I might still have the misfortune to deal with: Donald tRump has been a piece of shit his whole life- when he was a registered Democrat, or unaffiliated, or Independent, or whatever.  Only Rethugs are degenerate enough to put him in a position of authority over, well anything.

  23. 23.

    ArchTeryx

    @Alison Rose: Sadly yeah, it’s the maniacs that vote in primaries because so few are motivated to do that. If independents started showing up to R primaries, it would be a much more even race, but that isn’t going to happen.

  24. 24.

    kindness

    The Claremont Institute….another crazy right wing group that only likes ‘democracy’ so long as they call all the shots their way.  Someone needs to tell those folk they’re using the term democracy wrong.  Cue Princess Bride:  I don’t think the term means what you think it does.

  25. 25.

    RevRick

    @Almost Retired: He’s going to learn that there is no Constitutional right to insurrections. Article 1 and the 2nd Amendment declare that Congress has the power to call forth a militia to suppress domestic insurrections.

  27. 27.

    cain

    @Mike in NC:

    I was never ashamed or embarrassed to be an American until an imbecile named Donald Trump showed up one day. He rode down a golden escalator in a tacky tower paid for by his criminal, tax cheating, slumlord father, and he ranted to the world about how much he hated all people who weren’t born rich and white, like him. He pledged to build a “great wall” on the southern border and promised that Mexico would pay for it. Were millions of people actually stupid enough to believe that? Suffice it to say no such wall was ever built; just another of the many scams and swindles for which the Trump family is known.

    Dubya made me embarrassed to be an American constantly during the Bush years. Just cringe. That’s when everyone would ask me if the U.S. had gone crazy.

    It wasn’t until Obama came back that we gained respect – and people were jealous that we had such a rockstar.

  29. 29.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    @eversor: I like your comments otherwise, but you need to wrap your head around the simple concept that (surprise!) NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE THE SAME.

    MLK Jr., Mr. Rogers, and Jimmy Carter are all Christians.

    Many (most?) Christians are NOT theocratic fascists.

    It’s like saying Americans are the problem, or men are the problem. You’re painting with such a broad brush that what you’re saying can’t withstand scrutiny, and it may make you feel good but it doesn’t help your argument in any way.

    Instead, it makes you appear prejudiced and closed-minded. Also, it makes BJ a less welcoming place for many, I imagine.

    Please knock off this anti-Christian shit.

    BTW, not that it matters, but I wasn’t raised a Christian, and I have never identified as Christian.

  31. 31.

    Josie

    “the existing government will try to stop you from overthrowing it, and if you don’t win, you’re toast.”
    I love this summing up of Eastman’s problem. It also applies to the others charged, as well as their ignorant leader. They badly miscalculated and now must pay their dues. It may take a long time to unfold, but I will enjoy every minute of it.​​

  33. 33.

    Marmot

    Josh Marshall:

    They believed they were justified in trying to overthrow the government, whether because of OSHA chair size regulations or drag queens or, more broadly, because the common herd of us don’t understand the country’s “founding principles” the way Eastman and his weirdo clique do.

    This is so fascinating to me. With conservatives, the country and society itself are always just about to die, with dreaded chaos to follow. And because the left is actively scheming toward it.

    Just in the last couple decades, they’re all, Obama “wants the terrorists to win; “gay marriage will “destroy the family”; if you don’t stop the left “you’re not going to have a country anymore,” the decline of manliness is sapping our vitality or some shit. I’m sure there’s plenty end-of-civilization talk from around the end of segregation, from the passage of the Great Society, and so on. Heck, what’s-his-butt Maistre felt French post-revolutionary chaos was the unavoidable result of overthrowing the deserving rulers.

    They’re so weird. Any progress we make as a society comes only when they’re overridden.

  34. 34.

    wjca

    The great thing about having Eastman and others surrender first is that they’re not likely to get the kid gloves treatment.  And that establishes a precedent/process/rhythm for when TIFG finally shows up.

  36. 36.

    Alison Rose

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: They are never going to knock it off because they clearly have absolutely nothing going for them in life, and are abjectly miserable because of that, and have chosen this fixation because they’re too stupid to come up with anything else. I’m surprised they aren’t a Republican, because IQs equivalent to one’s waist size fit in better with that party.

  37. 37.

    cain

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I believe eversor is attacking Christianity as an institution of which the largest and most influential is evangelical.

    I never took his rants against christians in general.

    I can see why Christianity as institution is worth attacking considering slavery, world wars, colonization all came from this religion or an Abrahamic religion.

    Even your examples like Jimmy Carter who is an amazing individuals are attacked by evangelicals (the largest more influential Christian institution) – something wrong about all of that when the people who exhibit Christ’s principles are attacked.

  38. 38.

    rikyrah

    The founders knew that. That’s why at the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Benjamin Franklin remarked, “We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.”

     

    truth

  39. 39.

    DFH

    @Betsy:

    Yes indeed! We’re sitting around watching clips and reading B-J and hooting at the level of schadefreude in our blood.

    It’s like six or seven years of a disturbance in the usual cause-and-effect pattern we’ve seen our whole lives. There was no effect from all the causes, and to now SEE SOME is a palpable sensation. It feels great, like the effect Dark Brandon had on me. I wake up jonesing for bad news for all of them. It’s a good day.

  40. 40.

    Betty Cracker

    Eastman released a statement and appears to have had a change of heart from his earlier “hell yeah, we did a coup!” sentiment:

    I am here today to surrender to an indictment that should never have been brought. It represents a crossing of the Rubicon for our country, implicating the fundamental First Amendment right to petition the government for redress of grievances. As troubling, it targets attorneys for their zealous advocacy on behalf of their clients, something attorneys are ethically bound to provide and which was attempted here by “formally challeng[ing] the results of the election through lawful and appropriate means.” – An opportunity never afforded them in the Fulton County Superior Court.

    Each Defendant in this indictment, no less than any other American citizen, is entitled to rely upon the advice of counsel and the benefit of past legal precedent in challenging what former Vice President Pence described as, “serious allegations of voting irregularities and numerous instances of officials setting aside state election law” in the 2020 election. The attempt to criminalize our rights to such redress with this indictment will have – and is already having – profound consequences for our system of justice.

    My legal team and I will vigorously contest every count of the indictment in which I am named, and also every count in which others are named, for which my knowledge of the relevant facts, law, and constitutional provisions may prove helpful. I am confident that, when the law is faithfully applied in this proceeding, all of my co-defendants and I will be fully vindicated.

    LOL! He’s smart enough to listen to his lawyers, maybe.

  43. 43.

    lowtechcyclist

    @eversor:

    No, you got a fact wrong.  Eastman’s reason was the same as Barr’s and Alito’s.  Which is that any liberal winning is a mortal threat to Christianity and it’s natural order and thus anything is allowed because Christianity.  It’s Christianity, every fucking time.  Deal with that or give the fuck up.

    Zzzzzzzzzzzz….

  44. 44.

    rikyrah

    @eclare:

    Thanks for your response. It’s the fundamental disrespect that just bothers the shit out of me. Has all those overtones of Mr. Charlie being the Big Boss and how dare these Nigras question me.

    They don’t respect that they are duly elected Representatives like the rest of them. They don’t give them the basic, fundamental level of respect OWED TO THEM BECAUSE THEIR CONSTITUENTS VOTED THEM IN.

  45. 45.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: @Alison Rose:

    Gonna push back a little bit here. Eversore did NOT say Christians in general, they said,

    Eastman’s reason was the same as Barr’s and Alito’s. Which is that any liberal winning is a mortal threat to Christianity and it’s natural order and thus anything is allowed because Christianity.

    Specifically referring to Eastman, Barr, and Alito, who do in fact justify damned near everything they do by citing their so called Christian “beliefs.”

  47. 47.

    Betty Cracker

    @cain:

    I never took his rants against christians in general.

    You’re overly generous. I don’t bother engaging him on the topic anymore because he’s an irrational crank on the subject, but he frequently calls for the eradication of Christianity, and not just the evangelical strain

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: Same, and I’ve been an atheist since I was a teen.

  48. 48.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Betty Cracker: ​ I’ll admit I don’t pay much attention to any one person’s anti religious rants, always feeling that anything that gets one thru the day is OK with me as long as “it neither picks my pockets nor breaks my bones.”

  50. 50.

    Dorothy A. Winsor

    From Joshua Friedman on twitter Bluesky, less than an hour ago.

    “Jeff Clark files emergency motion in GA federal court to stay Fulton Co action—including arrest warrants—while court considers federal removal. Asks for answer by *5 p.m. today* so he can avoid “making rushed travel arrangements … or instead risking being labeled a fugitive.” tinyurl.com/rz9frfsf”

  51. 51.

    bbleh

    … they’re surrendering one by one at the Fulton County Jail and will be tried for conspiracy.

    And then we get to hang them, right?  Just like ol’ Ben said!  Right?

    No?

    🙁

  54. 54.

    sempronia

    Benjamin Franklin remarked, “We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.”

    Zeugma!

  57. 57.

    Citizen Alan

    @cain:

    I consider Evangelical Christianity as it is practiced in the US to be a heretical cult and a blasphemous perversion of the message of Jesus Christ. And I still think eversor is ridiculous and over-the-top. To my recollection, he has never drawn a distinction between politicized evangelicalism and other strains of Christianity and seems to believe the entire religion should be abolished.

  59. 59.

    hueyplong

    Wondering just what doesn’t constitute a crossing of the Rubicon in Eastman’s mind.

    Actually, wondering whether he’s been quoted on any topic other than that day’s latest crossing of the Rubicon.

  60. 60.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: @LAO: [re. Jeffrey Clark]
    Does he have a colorable claim [if that’s the right term] for removal to federal court? He was a DoJ official, though his official duties presumably didn’t include overthrowing the government. But for removal, to what extent does the court have to consider whether he was completely outside his official duties?

  61. 61.

    cain

    @Betty Cracker: I think coming from a country that has been a victim of colonialism inspired by Christianity’s need to spread itself colors my particular bit of disdain for the religion – but I’m not against christians – since human nature applies to all adherents of religions – but I certainly against the institution of Christianity especially if evangelicals and others are the ones that hold sway.

  63. 63.

    trollhattan

    @bbleh: No hanging.

    In Georgia all executions are carried out utilizing lethal injection. Lethal injection is basically a controlled process of intravenously injecting a person with a drug that results in the convicted person becoming unconscious, then a failure to breathe which culminates in heart arrhythmia.

    Criteria Required for a Capital Case

    In Georgia, capital punishment may be used only if the convicted person is 17 years old and older. The prosecuting authority is not required to seek the death penalty in any particular case. Truthfully, there are some intangible, often undisclosed, factors that can affect whether or not a prosecuting body chooses to seek the death penalty. Among these factors are:
    -Public opinion and perceptions that affect elected officials
    -The enormous cost to the state or county for a death penalty trial
    -The difficulty in convicting a person represented by a stellar law firm

  65. 65.

    cain

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    @cain: He has been confronted on that question.  His answers have not matched your interpretation.

    Fair. But I still interpret it that way – I have never seen him attack specific Christians like Jimmy Carter or what not. Screeds have always been against the entire ecosystem.

  66. 66.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @eclare: [Jeffrey Clark, environmental lawyer] it was in Richard Donoghue’s Jan. 6 committee testimony. To paraphrase: go back to your office and we’ll call when there’s an oil spill. This was in the big meeting where Trump finally decided not to appoint him Acting Attorney General.

  68. 68.

    WhatsMyNym

    @cain:

    slavery, world wars, colonization all came from this religion or an Abrahamic religion.

    Wow…just wow. Time to to start ignoring you.

  69. 69.

    Citizen Alan

    @wjca: Seriously! I have said for years that there are two kinds of Christians in America:

    Group 1: People who have sincerely accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts and allowed them to make a change in them such that they become kinder and better people.

    AND

    Group 2: Assholes. Assholes who got dunked in a bathtub when they were little kids after being pressured into it by family with varying degrees of subtlety. And, having been dunked in the magic bathtub, they were then told that they were better than other people and could be as hateful and selfish and cruel as they wanted and still get into Heaven.

    I have believed that these two groups existed for most of my adult life. But until the election of 2016, never in my most cynical and jaded visions did I think the assholes would outnumber the decent Christians by anything close to 4-to-1.

  70. 70.

    cain

    @Citizen Alan:

    I consider Evangelical Christianity as it is practiced in the US to be a heretical cult and a blasphemous perversion of the message of Jesus Christ. And I still think eversor is ridiculous and over-the-top. To my recollection, he has never drawn a distinction between politicized evangelicalism and other strains of Christianity and seems to believe the entire religion should be abolished.

    I do agree he’s over the top – when someone keeps going back to the well with constant screeds against Christianity and is polarized – whatever the trauma is – it must be pretty awful.

  72. 72.

    M31

    So Eastman would like to be treated the way the Brits would have treated the ringleaders of 1776 if said ringleaders had lost, is that correct?

  73. 73.

    Marmot

    @Betty Cracker:

    (Eastman’s statement:)

    Each Defendant in this indictment, no less than any other American citizen, is entitled to rely upon the advice of counsel and the benefit of past legal precedent in challenging what former Vice President Pence described as, “serious allegations of voting irregularities and numerous instances of officials setting aside state election law” in the 2020 election.

    He was just providing totally normal legal advice, you guys! Like when your lawyer says, “Sure, knock over that liquor store. Here’s the best way to do it!”

    Just normal, everyday legal advice.

  75. 75.

    Geminid

    @eclare: I think the oil spill guy is Jeffrey Clark. He had a Justice Department post related to environmental law. At one point Trump was considering replacing Acting AG Rosen with Clark.

  76. 76.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Well, eversor has derailed this thread.  Sorry for being part of that.  I should have just stuck with  “A bigot says what?”

  78. 78.

    M31

    @Marmot: “Well, the word “store” doesn’t have to mean items for sale, but merely a place where items are kept, so that means I can take them. Paying is only for the other kind of store, and there are serious allegations about this.”

  80. 80.

    Wag

    Thanks for the link to Surrender.  Perfect song and a great reminder of my first big concert, with Cheap Trick opening for Kansas.  Cheap Trick won the evening hands down!

  85. 85.

    schrodingers_cat

    @cain: Actually this is another lie propagated by the Sangh. The Christian population in India is under 2%. The people who are into conversion are evangelical denominations like the Pentacoastals etc but RSS conflates Catholics and mainline Protestants with them.

    I went to a Catholic school and not once was I proselytized. I went to mass once and that too because I was curious

    Also what the RSS does to India’s original people, the Adivasis is worse than their fate at the hands of any evangelical.

  88. 88.

    Marmot

    @M31: Yes!

    “Besides, one of my associates says the store has many bookkeeping irregularities that require us to rob it, really!”

  91. 91.

    p.a.

    So for Eastman “petitioning the government” includes inciting followers to club the police* with fire extinguishers and flagpoles, and hang elected reps.

    *obviously violence is o.k. against some police on the proper occasions for some causes.  By the proper people.

  92. 92.

    Marmot

    @smith: Holy carp, you’re right. Just totally normal paperwork filing and walking around outside with a protest sign, I guess.

  93. 93.

    Baud

    @smith:

    I liked the part where he asserted that attempting an insurrection is just a normal way to petition the government

     

    I have a new tool in my tool belt for the next time my town delays in fixing potholes.

  94. 94.

    Kay

    Arkansas Times
    @ArkTimes
    18h
    Arkansas officials require teachers to turn over AP African American Studies lessons+course materials for inspection. They’re looking for evidence of critical race theory and indoctrination, banned by new state law. This is not a drill.

    All the Right, Center and Left ninnies who pushed the CRT panic must be so proud. They’re silent now when we have real censorship. Maybe embarrassed? Nah. They think WAY too highly of themselves to be embarrassed.

    The six Arkansas school districts offering an AP African American Studies class this year despite an ambush from the state’s pearl-clutching, culture war-stoking political leadership now have more hoops to jump through.
    On Monday, Arkansas Education Secretary Jacob Oliva sent letters to superintendents letting them know that because of suspicions the class may violate new state laws against indoctrination and critical race theory, teachers will have to submit lesson plans and course materials for inspection.

    Panics always harm ordinary people. Always.

  97. 97.

    zhena gogolia

    @OzarkHillbilly: I do identify as Christian, and I don’t pay much attention to eversor’s rants on the topic. He often makes good comments about other things. Jesus said, “Be not afraid.” I’m not afraid of eversor.

  98. 98.

    MisterDancer

    @cain: I can see why Christianity as institution is worth attacking considering slavery, world wars, colonization all came from this religion or an Abrahamic religion.

    Boy, do I have a Roman bridge to sell to you! And I mean that — what the Abrahamic religions did was take the Roman (and others!) models and continue to refine them. Even the term Fascist comes from a Latin term (albeit in modern times).

    And eversor isn’t saying “Abrahamic religions”. they are saying Christianity. And I’m as annoyed by them saying that, as I am by people who, post-9/11, decided their ideas about what Islam is are the cause of all woes.

    As someone who’s actually reading post-colonial works on a research project, as someone who’s background as the descendant of American slaves gets some of the colonialist impact, the absolute horror show that institution in European/American hands dropped on many cultures around the world? Nah, man, eversor has and continues to be wrongheaded on this. These forms of Christianity only served to enable these evils — they certainly did not come from whole cloth out of “Christian” doctrine.

    It’s like the people who insist the solution to Racism is gutting Capitalism, as if the examples of how Blacks were treated in Soviet Russia just slides over their research. (SIGH)

  100. 100.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Alison Rose: ​
     

    To repeat myself from #48:

    I’ll admit I don’t pay much attention to any one person’s anti religious rants, always feeling that anything that gets one thru the day is OK with me as long as “it neither picks my pockets nor breaks my bones.”

    I don’t “pie” people. If I read something tiresome or repetitive, I just skip it and then forget about it. I’ve become a master at that last bit*, just ask my wife.

    I won’t remember this exchange or who all was involved a 1/2 hour after I sign off. I’ll take your and everybody else’s word for it that eversore is a broken record on the whole anti- Christian thing (they aren’t the only one) but I can assure you I won’t remember who said what, when, or why.

    *same thing goes for arguments, I can’t think of a more idiotic way to waste one’s life than holding a grudge over a stupid disagreement.

  103. 103.

    Ken

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Jeff Clark files emergency motion [to stay arrest warrants….] Asks for answer by *5 p.m. today*

    Since the thread’s talking religion, I’ll repurpose one that’s usually about God and prayer:  “The courts answer all emergency motions, but sometimes the answer is No.”

  105. 105.

    Kay

    This is one of the public school districts where sleazy Huckabee family low quality hire Sanders is blocking AP AA history from being taught:

    60% of Little Rock School District students are Black, 19% of students are White, 16% of students are Hispanic, 3% of students are Asian, 1% of students are American Indian, and 1% of students are Two or more races.

    The people who write editorials at the NYTimes and the Atlantic object to AA history being taught in the public schools they didn’t attend and would never send their children to- the public schools which are (now) nationally majority minority, unlike when they went to school.

  107. 107.

    jimmiraybob

    @RevRick:   “there is no Constitutional right to insurrections”

    We have the US Constitution in part to strengthen the “general” government in order to thwart insurrection and rebellion. Shays’ Rebellion proved the weakness of the Articles of Confederation.

    1776! is not a call to support the Constitution, it is a call to sedition and rebellion against the Federal government.

  108. 108.

    Citizen Alan

    @Maxim:

    There was a video last year some time, a short clip with (I think) a Daily Show correspondent talking to some Trump-loving old witch who was so proud of her Christian beliefs.  And gave the reporter an incredibly garbled account of Jesus’s “sheep and goats” parable, in which she identified “the sheep” as people taken in by liberal beliefs, and she wasn’t going to be a sheep, she was going to be a goat. The “goats,” according to Jesus himself, being the ones who would be condemned to hell.

  111. 111.

    Citizen Alan

    @MisterDancer:

    Boy, do I have a Roman bridge to sell to you! And I mean that — what the Abrahamic religions did was take the Roman (and others!) models and continue to refine them. Even the term Fascist comes from a Latin term (albeit in modern times).

    I am of the opinion that Christianity lost 90% of its moral value the day Constantine made it the state religion. And the 10% who still have value are those who have stood up against the corruption and lust for power of their co-religionists (and occasionally been burned at the stake for doing so).

  112. 112.

    Kay

    @trollhattan:

    Well, first they tried to cancel the class 5 days before it started but a newspaper caught them so now they’re doing an “inspection”, which will of course delay the course and harm the students who signed up for it

    Nepotism hires! Always a day late and a dollar short.

  114. 114.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat:

    India has been under British rule for about 100 years or so. You’re saying that at no point missionaries didn’t come in proselytize the population? From what I read, proselytizing didn’t take because Hindus simply accepted that Jesus Christ was an avatar of Vishnu and those could simply include Jesus as part of what they are already doing. Hell, my Indian temple here in Portland has not only all the Hindu gods, it included Jesus and Mary too.

    My mother-in-law in Hyderbad recently told me her maid changed her religion obecause she was offered two bags of rice. (I can only assume that she’ll revert back once the bribing stops) I also went to a Catholic school in India and there was some underhanded nudges that were subtle. Proselytizing is real and it is definitely happening regardless of Sang or otherwise. Their target is the lower castes.  It’s why the Indian govt has very strict entrance questions when you apply for a visa.

    Compare and contrast – most of Africa has been converted to Christianity. What’s the difference given that colonial powers have been active in both countries.

  117. 117.

    AWOL

    @cain: I had mistaken him for a refugee from an evangelistic culture. I was wrong. I believe his father was Jewish and was imprisoned by the nazi scum. Of course, many nazis were Christians, but as a political movement, they seemed to prefer atheism.

  118. 118.

    schrodingers_cat

    @cain: Actually there is data on this, that India did not become more Christian under the British.

    The rice bag stuff is a canard spread by the Sangh ecosystem. In fact that is the epithet of choice for any Christian by a Sangh supporter  and/or a BJP keyboard warrior.

  119. 119.

    bupalos

    @Citizen Alan: Being able to distinguish between the kind of perversions to which a particular moral outlook is prone, and the moral outlook itself is not uncommon. Stupid, but not uncommon. Christianity has it’s typical decayed form, as do all the religions, as does atheism, as does liberalism itself.

  120. 120.

    Betty Cracker

    @West of the Rockies: He’s now pretending he and the other buffoons were engaged in lawful petition for redress of grievances, whereas during the interview with a Claremont flunkey, he was all you’re goddamn right I ordered the Code Red coup!

  124. 124.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    That’s why I love the Georgia case and think it’s hugely important – it sets out the conspiracy including the actual efforts to tamper with voting equipment and records. That’s key. It weakens both defenses they’re likely to use “redressing grievances” and also “just blowing off steam/too incompetetent to be dangerous” which they haven’t used yet but will.

    They couldn’t get a court to go along so they sent in the sleazy crooks to get the voting records. In MI, too.

  125. 125.

    Citizen Alan

    @AWOL: No, my impression is that the Nazis favored a sort of perverted Ceremonial Deism in which they did whatever they wanted to do and then said it was God’s will. IOW, pretty much what the US Right has been doing for my entire life. I’ve never read Mein Kampf, but my understanding is that it heavily frames Nazi philosophy within the framework of Christianity as it existed in Germany at the time.

    The danger of Christianity (and every organized religion) lies not in its actual belief system but rather in how easily it can serve as a method of social control. People vote Republican because they believe God wants them to, but they’ve likely never read the Bible in its entirety themselves. At best, they parrot buzz phrases they picked up from the preacher to whom they’ve delegated all consideration of “what is moral and what is not,” preacher who have probably not ever read the Bible in its entirety either, or at least not in the original language nor in any context except approved Bible college interpretations.

  128. 128.

    Citizen Alan

    @eclare: Weren’t there several GOP politicians he put on the spot like that? One after another, they went on his show and were asked the same question for which they were completely unprepared despite it being a plank in their political platforms! Low quality hires indeed!

    I mean, seriously! I haven’t set foot in a church in over a decade, and I was able to name eight right off the bat. I had to go back and look up the other two. I forgot honoring your father and mother and did not realize that there were two separate Commandments about “not coveting.” I’ve always wanted to ask a politician who spouts off about the 10 Commandments “exactly what laws do you think the government should be passing to outlawing ‘coveting your neighbor’s possession’?”

  129. 129.

    Ken

    @Yarrow: They’re very good at derailing threads to get everyone talking about their preferred subject.

    But aren’t we all? I’ve derailed a few in my day. And mine were proper derailments of genuine “let’s discuss this” threads, not open threads like this one.

  130. 130.

    PJ

    @cain: ​
      Slavery existed in different forms in different parts of the world long before any Abrahamic religion. As did colonization (people have been migrating en masse to different parts of the world since our ancestors walked out of Africa). World wars only happened when there was sufficient transportation to make it happen (i.e., in the last several hundred years), but you may recall that the last world war was started in Europe by Germany and the Soviet Union, the latter of which was officially anti-religion.

  131. 131.

    JPL

    This is good!  Is the devil made me do it a good defense?

    ATLANTA, Ga. (Atlanta News First) – David Shafer, the former chair of the Georgia GOP and one of 19 co-defendants named in last week’s sweeping Fulton County indictment, wants his case to be tried in federal court.
    Shafer joins former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows in petitioning a federal court to hear their cases, rather than Fulton County Superior Court.
    In a Monday filing made in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Georgia, Shafer’s attorneys maintain, “Mr. Shafer and the other Republican Electors in the 2020 election acted at the direction of the incumbent President and other federal officials.”

  132. 132.

    eclare

    @Citizen Alan:

    I could not get to eight, but I got more than three!

    I would never want to go against Colbert on Biblical knowledge.  He knows his stuff, in the best way.

  134. 134.

    cain

    @MisterDancer: I appreciate your point of view. I think for me – I’m informed by the subcontinent history – we’ve had several invasions and they’ve all been Abrahamic religions. Whether that’s because the Romans / white people transformed into what it is – we are dealing with the effects of it.

  136. 136.

    Ken

    @Citizen Alan: I did not realize that there were two separate Commandments about “not coveting.”

    That depends on who you ask, with the Jews, Samaritans, Catholics, Lutherans, and other Protestant denominations having their own divisions of the text.

    The Samaritans have the best excuse, as their Exodus 20 text is different, with an injunction to build the temple on Mount Gerizim.

  138. 138.

    Josie

    @JPL: ​
     This is probably a dumb question, but why would it be to their benefit to move it to a federal court?

  141. 141.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat: I know it didn’t. I’m aware of the numbers – I’m saying that proselytizing continues to happen.

    My mother-in-law was talking about her maid. So I’m not sure how to discount about something that is only two degrees of separation. I could give some credence if it was my mother’s cousin’s brother’s wife said it. :-) I’ll admit that someone who changes their religion based on two bags of life likely means they never left the religion but decided to do the motions just toi get free stuff.

  142. 142.

    trollhattan

    @eclare: He’s a literal Sunday school teacher and yes, encyclopedic on the Bible. Also Lord of the Rings.

    Everybody needs a hobby!

  143. 143.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @zhena gogolia: ​

    I am pretty sure there are some who have never even cracked the Bible open. Much easier to show up in church on Sundays and let the Preacher/Pastor/Priest tell you what it says.

  144. 144.

    JPL

    @Josie: Bigger jury pool.   Fulton County is heavily democratic and they hope to get more maga’s on the jury.

    I don’t think that it helps.

  146. 146.

    eclare

    @trollhattan:

    Yep.  My parents also watched the show.  I remember telling my dad that I would not want to argue with Colbert over religion.  And he replied that he would not want to argue with Colbert over anything.

  147. 147.

    Chief Oshkosh

    Apologies if I missed this in the thread, but there’s an important point about Eastman’s referencing the Declaration of Independence. The preamble goes at length into the misdeeds of the King and why it was legitimate to rebel. Biden, of course, hadn’t even taken office, so there had been no oppressive misdeeds to rebel against at the time that the rebellion was cooked up.

    That said, the over-arching issue with regards to referencing anything in the DoI is that it’s not a legal document that is to be referenced for standing or justification. It’s literally a declaration of intent, one that is used today to celebrate that outcome. If the outcome had been different, it’d just be the piece of paper stapled to a head on a pike.

  148. 148.

    smith

    @Josie: I think in Federal court they would draw the jury from the whole district, not just from Fulton County. Greatly increases the odds of Goobers on the jury. I wonder if they are also judge shopping as well.

  149. 149.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Trump and the low quality hires really went all-in with the sleazy mob boss tactics in Georgia because Repubs run the state. It’s something to hear that “perfect” phone call in light of what we now know. I agree it’s an important case. I’m also glad MI is prosecuting the fake electors. We need to deter the next set of lawless sore losers!

  152. 152.

    Yarrow

    @Ken: @OzarkHillbilly:
    Fine. Remove the word “derail.” The commenter is still very good at getting people to talk about their preferred subject.

    And no, we’re not all this good at getting people to talk about our preferred subject. Sure, people can get a thread on their preferred subject once in awhile, but this commenter has maybe a 80-90% success rate.

  153. 153.

    schrodingers_cat

    @cain: Yes it does by some evangelical denominations but it is far less of a problem than it is made out to be.

    In fact in Goa the Hindus that embraced Catholicism were upper caste Hindus, mainly Saraswats and Chicobras (Brahmin subcastes on the west coast). I know this because they are proud of their origins and let you know that within an hour of introduction

    The ricebag stuff is apocryphal and even if true it says nothing good about the hierarchical brahminical religion that treats everyone but Brahmin males as second class human beings.

  156. 156.

    CliosFanBoy

    FWIW, Cheap Tirck’s “Live at Budokan” album is one of the best live albums EVER!!!!

  157. 157.

    trollhattan

    @Citizen Alan: Gets really interesting when you wander into the translations that include not coveting your neighbor’s slaves and animals.

    “Don’t be all lazy and coveting, man, get your own dang slaves and critters!”

  159. 159.

    smith

    @M31: And are undoubtedly now all in on TFG, who has managed to break most if not all of them. I’m sure that completing the set is on his bucket list.

  160. 160.

    Gravenstone

    They should all be happy that hanging for insurrection appears to have gone out of style in the intervening centuries.

  161. 161.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Yarrow: ​ I’m just trying to have a small laugh at our (that includes me) own expense. Not picking on any one or many people.

  163. 163.

    Soprano2

    @Betty Cracker: They just don’t get that they aren’t being charged for their LEGAL efforts to challenge the results of the election – they’re being charged for their ILLEGAL efforts to overturn the results of the election and install the loser as president. No one said they can’t file legal appeals, or say things.

  165. 165.

    smith

    @eclare: If it goes to federal court, I believe the federal court district, larger than just Fulton County,  would be the catchment from which the jurors are drawn.

  166. 166.

    Bill Arnold

    @Betty Cracker:

    He’s now pretending he and the other buffoons were engaged in lawful petition for redress of grievances,

    He openly plotted to steal an election, justified by known-at-the-time-to-be-false accusations that Trump’s opponent stole the election, and was openly willing to risk igniting a hot US Civil War (he and Jeff Clark both, and maybe others) that the plot’s success would have caused.
    He should on-his-knees grateful that the old punishments for such behavior are not longer used in this country.

  167. 167.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @wjca:

    The great thing about having Eastman and others surrender first is that they’re not likely to get the kid gloves treatment. And that establishes a precedent/process/rhythm for when TIFG finally shows up.

    Boy oh boy, I hope you are right!

  168. 168.

    strange visitor (from another planet)

    also, not for nothing, they don’t know how to use the possessive “its”, and it’s really annoying.

  169. 169.

    cain

    @PJ: @cain: ​
    Slavery existed in different forms in different parts of the world long before any Abrahamic religion. As did colonization (people have been migrating en masse to different parts of the world since our ancestors walked out of Africa). World wars only happened when there was sufficient transportation to make it happen (i.e., in the last several hundred years), but you may recall that the last world war was started in Europe by Germany and the Soviet Union, the latter of which was officially anti-religion.

    Of course, I’m not saying Abrahamic religions created slavery or colonization. Even within the Indian subcontinent there has been wars and/or colonization.

    But within the past say 300-400 years – the dominant religions that propagated wars/slavery  have been Abrahamic religions. That _doesnt_ mean that no other religion or its adherents couldn’t have done the same thing if Abrahamic religions didn’t exist. We’re a species that have patterns that we continue to propagate. It’s the species, not the religion.

    I think the component that differentiates Abrahamic religion at least from when I look at my own or some others is the proselytization. The need to spread and gain followers. It’s that mentality.

    Anyways, I don’t want to go down this path too far down. So I’m going to quit from here on in and go back to American politics. Religion discussions can get heated.

  170. 170.

    Timill

    @Citizen Alan: Have a handy aide memoire:

    Thou shalt have one God only; who
    Would be at the expense of two?
    No graven images may be
    Worshipped, except the currency:
    Swear not at all; for, for thy curse
    Thine enemy is none the worse:
    At church on Sunday to attend
    Will serve to keep the world thy friend:
    Honour thy parents; that is, all
    From whom advancement may befall:
    Thou shalt not kill; but need’st not strive
    Officiously to keep alive:
    Do not adultery commit;
    Advantage rarely comes of it:
    Thou shalt not steal; an empty feat,
    When it’s so lucrative to cheat:
    Bear not false witness; let the lie
    Have time on its own wings to fly:
    Thou shalt not covert; but tradition
    Approves all forms of competition.

    Arthur Hugh Clough

  171. 171.

    Soprano2

    @Citizen Alan: You should live among as many of them as I do; if you did, you’d know the proportion is actually about 10:1 those who have never read the book they holler about all the time to the ones who have. It’s amazing, every time there’s an article in the paper or a story on TV news about efforts to help the homeless, it’s the same several liberal churches that are cited as involved. Not the largest Southern Baptist church, or the second largest, or the largest Assemblies of God church (hint: their international headquarters is in this city!). None of those large churches do any of the dirty work of actually helping the homeless by opening as a shelter, or organizing kitchens for them, or much of anything else as far as I know. I’m sure they probably take up a special collection once or twice a year, but otherwise I never hear about them in regards to that issue. OTOH, Convoy of Hope, which is an Assemblies group, is in Maui right now helping people. They’re willing to help, just not the least of us. They want to help the “truly deserving”, whatever that means to them.

  172. 172.

    Brit in Chicago

    @PJ: “the last world war was started in Europe by Germany and the Soviet Union”

    Germany and the USSR were allies (dividing Poland, as usual), until the former invaded the latter in June 1941.

    I agree with your larger point, but you don’t do it any favors like this.

  175. 175.

    Betty Cracker

    Someone could probably generate 500+ indignant comments in under an hour here if they said something mean and untrue about cats and dogs. ;-)

  176. 176.

    cain

    @schrodingers_cat:

    The ricebag stuff is apocryphal and even if true it says nothing good about the hierarchical brahminical religion that treats everyone but Brahmin males as second class human beings.

    I certainly believe that the caste system is a threat to Hinduism given that non-Brahmins can have a choice in religious aspiration and do not need to be part of a religion who puts them down and treats them like mud.

  182. 182.

    Soprano2

    @Kay: None of the panicked people like Bill Maher will comment on this censorship at all, because it doesn’t concern them or affect them personally. It’s gross and disgusting how they portray themselves as “free speech warriors”, when what they really mean is “free speech for people like me, who think like I do and say things I agree with”. ETA – I see it says the Arkansas law is against “indoctrination”. Exactly how are they going to determine what materials are indoctrinating children? Are any of the Confederate-sympathizing-approved history materials considered “indoctrination”? I bet not.

  183. 183.

    UncleEbeneezer

    The murderer of Lauri Ann Carleton was identified as 27 y/o Travis Ikeguchi- I found his twitter and just wanted to quickly share a few things- first, he was obviously very homophobic and transphobic.

    He ate up the “LGBT = pedophile” propaganda- listened to @MattWalshBlog and his ilk. He also followed and regularly retweeted @OANN

    He was antisemitic, because antisemitism is always at the core of this bullshit. He also retweeted @RobertKennedyJr

    He hated women and vaccines (of course), and was both a 9/11 and a Pearl Harbor truther?

    And of course, he loved his guns. This dude is like a bingo of the most toxic parts of the right wing internet. Everyone who I named in this thread has blood on their hands, period.

    Oop, one more thing that I forgot- this man was a Christian. The majority of his tweets were related to his faith- Bible verses, etc. If Christians don’t actively fight against homophobia, transphobia, antisemitism- we also have blood on our hands.

  185. 185.

    wjca

    @smith:

    I wonder if they are judge shopping as well.

    If so, they’re SOL.   The Federal judge who will hear their petition (and hear the case if they are successful) is an Obama appointee.  Whereas in state court they’ll likely be looking at a judge appointed by Kemp.

     

    They tend to assume that all judges are (or at least are supposed to be) corrupt followers of whoever appointed them.  So either way they would be, in their own view, in trouble.

  186. 186.

    cain

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think the Mongols came once.  The Mughals were Islamic. Alexander the Great (Greek Pagan) also visited our fine valley once – but got stopped before he could make it to Delhi if I recall.

    This is pretty interesting read – https://www.jagranjosh.com/general-knowledge/list-of-foreign-rulers-who-invaded-india-check-details-here-1663503924-1

    Here is the Mongol:

    Timur: Timur later Timūr Gurkānī was a Turco-Mongol conqueror who founded the Timurid Empire. The first ruler of the Timurid dynasty and the great military leaders belonged to the family of Genghis Khan. He annexed northern India in 1398, attacking the Delhi Sultanate led by Sultan Nasir-Ud-Din Mahmud Shah Tughlaq of the Tughlaq dynasty.

  187. 187.

    trollhattan

    Note to self: never eat at a place named “Frugals” because perhaps they’re not being ironic.

    Three people have died, and three others are in hospital after drinking milkshakes contaminated with listeria bacteria in the US state of Washington, health officials say.

    Investigators found the bacteria in the ice cream machines at Frugals, a popular burger and milkshakes restaurant in Tacoma. The restaurant in a statement said it was “deeply saddened” by the news.

    Listeria can affect people up to 70 days after consuming contaminated food.

    Health officials said the ice cream machines at the Tacoma restaurant were not cleaned correctly resulting in a foodborne listeriosis outbreak.

    Six people were sent to the hospital between 27 February and 22 July, the Washington State Department of Health said. Genetic fingerprinting of bacteria in the milkshakes shows it was the same strain of Listeria. Two of the three who survived said they had a milkshake from the same Frugals restaurant before feeling symptomatic.

    In a statement, Frugals said: “We are heartbroken and deeply regret any harm our actions could have caused.”

    “We are committed to making any changes deemed necessary to maintain our high standard of operations and prevent this from happening again.”

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates about 1,600 Americans get the infection every year, and some 260 die.

  188. 188.

    Obvious Russian Troll

    @eversor:

    A good chunk of the alt right–including figures like Richard Fucking Spencer–were atheists.  I’d argue that the problem is not religion per se, but authoritarianism.

    Speaking as an atheist, though, I tend to skip over your posts. They’re boring and counterproductive.

  190. 190.

    CliosFanBoy

    @PJ: the latter of which was officially anti-religion.

    Yes, but they had their own deep faith, which was effectively a religion.   But as a historian, I’d argue that Germany started the was rin Europe, but the USSR and Italy took advantage of the opportunity. (As did Hungary)

    As I think I said up-thread  (I was posting on my phone while waiting in CVS) it’s fundamentalism that’s the problem.   It’s usually seen in the form of one of the major religions, but also appears in political movements.  (Soviet-Communism, Shining Path, the Khumer Rouge, hardline Japanese emperor worship, etc.)

  191. 191.

    Chief Oshkosh

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: I say we have him extradited to GA and placed in general in the Fulton County Jail while we figure all this out. It’s complicated and might take some time and we wouldn’t want to lose track of him in case we need to ask him about something or other.

  194. 194.

    Roger Moore

    @p.a.: ​
     

    So for Eastman “petitioning the government” includes inciting followers to club the police* with fire extinguishers and flagpoles, and hang elected reps.

    It also includes defaming election workers and threatening the Georgia Secretary of State with prison time if he doesn’t “find” some extra votes for your candidate.

  195. 195.

    Kay

    @Soprano2:

    I’m not an expert but I do like children and I had some and they don’t understand children either.

    Children adopt enthusiasms or beliefs and then drop them just as fast as they picked them up. They try out things. I used to smile when mine told me something they clearly got in school and then sort of stared at me, waiting for the reaction after they ran it up the ol flagpole :)

    Everything isn’t a 5 alarm “indoctrination” fire. I feel I was almost insanely indoctrinated to be pro military in public school -my father, a veteran, even thought it was silly and performative and over the top –  and here I am, sort of middle of the road military. Didn’t stick.

    This FIRE org they all lockstep promote pisses me off, because they’re dishonest. It is clearly a Right leaning org but they pretend to defend “speech”. They don’t do jackshit to defend liberal speech.

    I don’t mind that they’re all Right wingers. I mind that they deny they are.

  196. 196.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @JPL: They are hoping that the entire case is dropped.

    Good luck with that. “I was only following orders.”

  198. 198.

    wjca

    “Cats and dogs as pets are at the root of everything that’s wrong with our politics today.”

    Fixed that for you.

  201. 201.

    JPL

    I haven’t heard much from Rudy and maybe he checked himself into rehab in order to miss the court date.

  203. 203.

    eversor

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:

    Alito I did it all for the Jebus,

    Barr, yep did it for Jebus.

    Trump voters, it’s all about Jebus.

    You, a fucking moron “the problem is not Jebus and they are just doing the Jebus wrong”.

    No, they ain’t doing it WRONG.  This is what the Jesus gets you.  Point fucking blank we don’t have a conservative, or a Republican, or any other problem we have Christianity.  And it will always end like this.   So you either an anti Christian or you are “well Hitler made the trains run on time” Christian.  No other option.

  204. 204.

    piratedan

    @trollhattan: young girls seem to like power pop, riffs you can dance to and vocal harmonies with jangly/crunchy guitar licks… what’s not to like?

  205. 205.

    Roger Moore

    @eclare:

    I could not get to eight, but I got more than three!

    Let me see.  I’m officially supposed to be Jewish, so by the Jewish parsing you have:

    • I am the Lord
    • No worshiping false gods or idolatry
    • Maintain the Sabbath
    • Honor your parents
    • No Murder
    • No Theft
    • No bearing false witness
    • No swearing false oaths
    • No adultery
    • No coveting your neighbor’s stuff

    IIRC, Protestants combine the part against worshiping false gods with the part about YHWH being the God who brought the Hebrews out of Egypt, while keeping the command against idolatry separate.  Catholics combine all the stuff about YHWH being God with the part about worshiping false Gods and idolatry, and split coveting one’s neighbor’s wife from the other stuff about coveting.

  206. 206.

    Roger Moore

    @eclare:

    They ignore anything written in red in the Bible.

    The way I’ve heard it said is that they think some words in the Bible are in red to show they’re optional.

    (For those who don’t know, it’s very common in Christian Bibles to print direct quotes from Jesus in red for emphasis.)

  208. 208.

    trollhattan

    @piratedan: Of the many, many, many groups then, they were a bizarre selection but who’s to say how Japanese radio chose their playlists?

  209. 209.

    Soprano2

    @JPL: You know what they’re all really terrified of is the jury pool in Atlanta, which is likely to be majority black. They’re terrified they can’t get a fair trial unless the jury pool is mostly white. ETA – and they’re probably hoping to get a TFG-appointed judge, too.

  212. 212.

    glory b

    @P Thomas: Interestingly, Girardi’s wife is a Real Housewife of Beverly Hills. It’s interesting to see her decription of her predicament (the “alleged victims”) and how she started off sympathetic to the plaintiffs, then turned tables when she realized what this would mean.

    And yes, I was shocked to read how he had a multimillion dollar firm but had no accounting/bookeeping staff & ran everything financial himself, using paper & pencil to do the firm accounting.

    I am shocked to see how the CA Bar treated this.

  215. 215.

    Roger Moore

    @Brit in Chicago:

    Germany and the USSR were allies (dividing Poland, as usual), until the former invaded the latter in June 1941.

    That sounds to me like Nazi Germany and the USSR starting the war exactly as the previous poster said; they were the countries that started with unprovoked aggression.  We don’t say that Poland started the war, even though the first part of WWII in Europe was the invasion of Poland, because we lay responsibility at the feet of the aggressors.  If they were talking about the German invasion of the USSR, they’d say German started the war, not Germany and the USSR.

  216. 216.

    eversor

    @Burnspbesq:

    At least I don’t excuse the fascist religion that destroyed Roe.  Do you go to Church, do you think Christians are good?  Congrats Alito excuser you own that one as well!

    The younger generations will get their revenge, legally or in blood, and it’s going to be fucking ugly.

  217. 217.

    smith

    @Soprano2: One of the more enjoyable ironies of this whole business is the fact that in GA, and probably in DC as well, the jury of their peers who will decide their fates are likely to be people they don’t recognize as their peers at all.

  220. 220.

    JPL

    Let’s hope that trump is behind jails and not running the country.    trump is floating a 10 percent tariff on all imports.

    A world wide depression is not what we need now or ever.

  221. 221.

    eclare

    @JPL:

    That is just…weird?  Who is for this?  A 10% tax on a lot of stuff we buy.

    The Fortune whatever cannot be in favor of this. Low tax rates don’t amount to much if you don’t make money.

  223. 223.

    Burnspbesq

    @P Thomas:

    i’m sure you think you have a point to make—and you might—but doing so at that level of incoherence doesn’t do you or it any favors.

  224. 224.

    Maxim

    @Cliosfanboy: The problem is extremism, of which fundamentalism and authoritarianism are the two most obvious examples, and which, of course, often go hand in hand in various belief systems. There is a Leader who has the Truth, and all must agree and obey or be damned / cast out / killed / oppressed / etc.

  226. 226.

    Alison Rose

    @Omnes Omnibus: As if it had ever been a mystery. But there are people who would apparently give the benefit of the doubt to someone standing over a stabbed corpse with a bloody knife in their hand screaming “I killed them and I’d do it again!”

    However, I’ve finally decided to pie this deplorable little shitstain. I find their comments as offensive as any other kind of bigotry, and I end up being emotionally disturbed for the rest of the damn day whenever they show up. I feel truly sorry for any person who has the misfortune to exist in their real life, though I’m 100% certain no one does so willingly.

  227. 227.

    Roger Moore

    @eclare:

    That is just…weird? Who is for this? A 10% tax on a lot of stuff we buy.

    I can think of two groups who might like an across-the-board 10% tariff:

    • Rich people who think it will reduce their income tax more than it costs them in tariffs
    • People who think it will help manufacturing here in the USA.
  229. 229.

    JPL

    @eclare: According to the Washington Post he alone will have power to exempt certain countries, which could lead to massive fraud.   Gingrich point out that it would return republicans to a time when the country the dominant economy, the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.    omg they are lunatics

     

    edited

    Gingrich

    “It will be controversial,” Gingrich said in an interview. Gingrich said the policy would amount to returning to Republican Party roots during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when large domestic companies pressed for trade restrictions to reduce foreign competition. “When we were the dominant economy, free trade was the rational strategy. Whether that is still a rational strategy is unclear.”

  230. 230.

    eclare

    @Roger Moore:

    It’s just weird.  In my macro econ class at a conservative SEC school, the teacher preached the mantra “free trade is good, tariffs are bad.” This was circa 1990.

    He was post-Keynesian.  Not sure what that means.

  233. 233.

    eclare

    @JPL:

    Oh.  Exempt certain countries.  And here is the bank account number for you exempt countries to put money into.  That explains a lot.

  238. 238.

    Bruce K in ATH-GR

    I don’t accept the binary choice of either being actively opposed to Christianity – which isn’t a single organized creed, not by a long chalk – or being an enabler of fascism.

    And this comes from someone who has a well-earned antipathy towards organized religions of all stripes, especially when commingled with state power.

    Did I ever mention the time I was conscripted into the Greek army, and from there, given a flat-out direct order to get myself baptized into the official state religion the next time I was away from the training base and near a Greek Orthodox church? I was just lucky that the next time I stepped off base, it was with discharge papers in my bag and all my weapons and uniforms turned in.

    And I can still take the attitude of “live and let live” towards people who don’t try to impose the tenets of their religion on others.

    I also have difficulty squaring the binary choice with the words and deeds of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    And no creed has a monopoly on sanctimonious fascist bastards.

  240. 240.

    Roger Moore

    @JPL:

    I’m glad the Post uses phrases like “enormous opportunities for influence-peddling” and “a recipe for corruption” to describe the opportunity for Trump to exempt whatever countries he chooses.  And that’s from the president of the Peterson Institute for International Economics, so it’s not exactly a liberal argument.

  241. 241.

    UncleEbeneezer

    @piratedan: K-pop and J-Pop are both heavily influenced by 80’s rock/pop and 90’s R&B/Hip Hop.  So it’s not that surprising that Cheap Trick would be popular.  Their songs always have great hooks and melodic vocal lines, rock but aren’t TOO heavy.  In short, they love Cheap Trick, for all the same reasons we love them.

  243. 243.

    Captain C

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: What’s legalese for “lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on our part isn’t our fucking problem, nor are expensive last-minute plane tickets”?

  244. 244.

    geg6

    @Citizen Alan: ​
     
    Well, to be fair to eversor, I am even more radical. I think all religions should be abolished. And if not abolished, forbidden from engaging in anything outside their own flock and building. I have no patience for any of it. And I don’t give a crap about the “good” ones. They’d be good people without religion.

    However, I don’t feel the need to beat people over the head with my feelings on this. Unless, of course, someone tries to beat me over the head with their religion crap.

  245. 245.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @smith:

    TFG, who has managed to break most if not all of them.

    I looked them up (could only name 6 off the top of my head) and I believe he has broken them all.  The sexual assaults handle coveting your neighbor’s wife, he’s an adulterer, he’s certainly every variety of thief, his relationship with his father was nightmarish, and boy has he broken the religion ones.  Bearing false witness is his god damn life.

    And he is a murderer.  Forget arm’s length shit like the deaths on Jan 6th, which you could argue he didn’t order.  At the end of the Trump administration, they rushed to execute every person on Federal death’s row so that Biden could not go back to the traditional procrastination policy.  It wasn’t a politically useful act.  They killed for the pleasure of killing another human and there is no way Trump did not at least directly approve it.

  246. 246.

    JPL

    @Roger Moore: If trump is the nominee, Biden has the opportunity to get some big donations from big box businesses.   Imagine Walmart customers hit with a ten percent increase on all their goods, never mind the building industry.

    I am gobsmacked on how stupid trump is.

  249. 249.

    Roger Moore

    @Warblewarble:

    Meadows and Clarke think they could be in line for a republican pardon.

    They’re wrong.  If the trial is removed to federal court, they get a different judge and jury pool, but they’re still being charged on state charges.  If they’re convicted, the president couldn’t pardon them.  They’d need to be pardoned through the Georgia state process, which restricts pardons to people who have already finished their sentences.

  251. 251.

    smith

    @Frankensteinbeck: I had forgotten about the executions. Welp, that’s the bucket list — I guess he can now retire to a monastery to contemplate his sins and beg God’s forgiveness. Preferably a place that practices monastic silence.

  252. 252.

    Tony Jay

    Looks like Pastor Predictable has been binging on the communion wine again.

    Jeebus’ fault, I bet. That rascal!

  253. 253.

    topclimber

    Chrisitans were probably at their most sympathetic when being eaten by lions in the Roman Colosseum. They blew it by becoming the official religion.

    No doubt the one who shall be nameless (don’t feed the troll!) was rooting for the felines…who, it has already been noted, are one of the two non-human species responsible for so much grief in this world.

  256. 256.

    rikyrah

     

     

    President Kamala’s Hand (Again) (@myronjclifton) posted at 1:27 PM on Tue, Aug 22, 2023:
    Jeffrey Clark tried to invalidate Black Georgians votes.

    Jeffrey believes “big government” is evil and D.C. is corrupt.

    He believes Jan 6th were just tourists.

    Oh, but also, Jeffrey Clark wants the feds – evil, too big, too democratic and all – to rescue him from Fani Willis

    #TuckFrump (@realTuckFrumper) posted at 10:11 AM on Tue, Aug 22, 2023:
    Jeffrey Clark begs federal court to halt his arrest and ‘perp walk’ in Fulton County https://t.co/qSp1pFdDu2
    (https://twitter.com/realTuckFrumper/status/1694004382873104400?t=1Ui3mcyeA89RMmmx3AJ2rA&s=03)

  257. 257.

    sherparick

    @Baud: RWingers love to quote the Old Radical 17th Century Whig John Harrington who stated:
    “Treason doth never prosper: what ’s the reason?
    Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
    ― John Harrington

    The truism is of the statement was obvious in the politics of the time, the Court of Elizabeth the I,  who had many plots against her foiled, but well knew that her grandfather Henry VII had won the throne by conquest in a successful rebellion against Richard III.

    If Trump & his cabal had succeeded, their autocracy would be called the height of patriotism and return to the “Founders Republic.”

    But they didn’t, and now face the consequences of their treason.

  258. 258.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    @sherparick: … in the politics of the time, the Court of Elizabeth the I, who had many plots against her foiled, but well knew that her grandfather Henry VII had won the throne by conquest in a successful rebellion against Richard III.

    [PSA] join Medium Cool this Sunday, Aug. 27, for a discussion of Josephine Tey’s the Daughter of Time.

  260. 260.

    sherparick

    @Mr. Bemused Senior: Read the book 50 years a go. A fun read, but I am afraid I still find Richard III guilty, guilty, guilty, for the very good reason that had he allowed them to live, they would be a threat to his crown & focus of discontent. So  They disappear from history in July 1483, so that is a tell.  Also, their mother, Elizabeth Woodville, acted & behaved (supporting Henry VII) with a certainty that they were dead & Richard III was responsible.  I will participate if I can.

  262. 262.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @sherparick: Elizabeth Woodville’s actions are not dispositive.  Richard securing his hold on the throne and making sure that her children were considered illegitimate was contrary to her interests.  Making common cause with the Tudors to defeat Richard made sense in that context.

  263. 263.

    BellaPea

    I cannot wait for that arrogant SOB Eastman to go down like a rock. Since he was involved in the legal shenanigans around Bush vs. Gore, I hate him even more.

    True story: When I worked in radio in the early 80s, I got to escort a group of prize winners backstage to meet Cheap Trick. They were all good guys except for the drummer, who was quite odd and would not leave his dressing room. Robin Zander was really cute back in the day.

  264. 264.

    Kirk

    @trollhattan: Not needed.

    Changing it to the federal system puts it in the northern district of Georgia. That’s the congressional districts for Ferguson (3d), Clyde (9th), Collins (10th), Loudermilk (11th), and let us not forget MTG (14th).

    I mean, it still includes the Atlanta democrats, but it really expands the potential jury pool in their favor.

  265. 265.

    RaflW

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Oh, noes! Rushed travel arrangements? The horror. The indignity!

    (Pretty sure Southwest will still sell ’em a seat on their airplanes, so they can get out that credit card.)

  270. 270.

    Paul in KY

    @trollhattan: I think they really loved Cheap Trick’s stage show back then. Rick Nielson could really ham it up with his guitars and Robin Zandar is a great lead singer.

  271. 271.

    Paul in KY

    @sherparick: Just showed how Richard III was not up to the task (being a King). Since their own father’s stupidity (marrying random ladies to bed them & then not having a public wedding with E. Woodville) had got them bastardized, he should have kept them under his thumb and trotted them out now and again to show how magnanimous he was, etc. etc. When they got older, if they plotted, he could then have them publicly tried/executed (as Henry VII was smart enough to do).

    He seems to have had no smart mentor who could advise him. Henry VII had his mother, who was as sharp as they come.

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