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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Zygotes & Zealots

Zygotes & Zealots

by Betty Cracker|  August 25, 202310:51 am| 256 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics, Open Threads, Politics, Republican Stupidity, The War On Women, Women's Rights Are Human Rights

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In the year and change since the Leo Court overturned Roe, Repub politicians redoubled their efforts to deny women agency in life-changing personal decisions and substituted GOP politicians’ half-baked religious fanaticism for medical science, making it impossible for women in many states to get treatment that meets modern medical care standards when experiencing life-threatening medical crises.

Red state governors signed so-called “heartbeat bills” that effectively ban abortion. The feral goons in the House attached antichoice riders to bills, as if legislating with a mandate to ban abortion.

Alabama’s Senator Potato Head is compromising national security by holding up hundreds of military nominations and promotions to try to change Pentagon abortion policy. It should be noted the DOD already doesn’t cover abortion due to federal law, but Tuberville objects to the military giving personnel stationed in red states time off to travel to states where modern reproductive healthcare is legal.

I’m no expert, but it seems like bad politics for Repubs to keep their antichoice extremist freak flag at full mast when red lights have been blinking on the electorate dashboard ever since the Dobbs decision came down, including in places like deep red Kansas and Ohio. Can they not see they’ve staked out a position that’s incredibly unpopular and likely to blow up in their faces?

They can see it — they just don’t have any politically palatable options, and their verbal flights of fancy in the recent debate demonstrate that. Here’s an excerpt from a TPM piece by Kate Riga, a reporter who covers reproductive health issues with uncommon persistence and insight:

“After I gave my life to Jesus Christ as my lord and savior I opened up the book and I read ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. And see I set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life,’” Mike Pence intoned from the debate stage Wednesday. “I knew from that moment on the cause of life had to be my cause.”*

Pence then took a whack at Nikki Haley, quipping that consensus is not leadership, and went on to tout his support for a federal ban on abortions starting 15 weeks after conception — quickly adding that there is 70 percent consensus behind such a ban (more on this below).

This moment, in the context of Pence’s career and the anti-abortion movement, is staggering.

Riga points out that proposing a 15-week federal abortion ban is a massive walk-back for zealots who believe zygotes are the equivalent of newborn babies. It’s not just Pence — antichoice group Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America signaled they are with Pence and the other two candidates who embraced a 15-week federal ban (Scott and Hutchinson).

It’s a good point. Whether the type of antichoice fanatics who scream “MURDERER” in people’s faces at clinics will be onboard with this “compromise” remains to be seen, but the SBA people are pretty hardcore — their president blasted candidates who said the matter should be left to the states, calling out Burgum by name — so their public acquiesce to a 15-week ban is stunning all by itself.

Riga concludes:

(Pence) is the man who, just a year ago, in prepared remarks, said that “our goal should be not just to make abortion illegal, but totally unthinkable for every American citizen,” that “we believe that life begins at conception.”

Dobbs revolutionized our politics, in ways we’re still reckoning with and struggling to predict. Nowhere is that more evident than in the “moderation” of Mike Pence, the anti-abortion crusader in search of a consensus to follow.

I think she’s right. The limp dissembling of other debate participants, including Nikki Haley and abortion-banner Ron DeSantis, underscores what a millstone they now perceive this issue is. Tuberville and the House howler monkeys don’t have to face a broad electorate; would-be presidents do.

It’ll be fascinating to see how Democrats approach this issue over the coming year. Beltway outlets speculate that VP Harris will take a lead role on the issue when the campaign begins in earnest, and Dems plan to hang antichoice extremism around the necks of every Repub up and down the ballot. Biden’s snarky ad buy for the debate illustrates the attitude. After all, we have the real consensus.

Open thread.

*Riga notes that Pence misleadingly cobbled together bible verses to make it sound like he has his lord and savior’s stamp of approval on antichoice policies. She also points out that Pence lied about 70% national consensus on 15-week bans.

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    256Comments

    1. 1.

      TaMara

      August 25, 2023 at 12:02 pm

      This post missed its schedule and I hope Betty doesn’t mind I updated her post so it actually showed up. Selfishly, so I could add this from the Biden-Harris Campaign:

      These guys showed us this week they don’t have a clue about the power of women.

      They are about to find out. pic.twitter.com/RKHQHRwv6h

      — Joe Biden (@JoeBiden) August 25, 2023

      Reply
    2. 2.

      kindness

      August 25, 2023 at 12:07 pm

      Democrats running as Pro-choice will help us at the polls.  Even (some) Republican women will support Democratic candidates because of it.

      Reply
    3. 3.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 12:10 pm

      Zygotes & Zealots

      Countdown to this becoming a new reality show…

      Reply
    4. 4.

      Caveatimperator

      August 25, 2023 at 12:11 pm

      This will turn off everyone who isn’t a zealot.

       

      For a long time, plenty of people believed that the Republican establishment didn’t really care about abortion and was just using the issue to get votes. I believed that myself for a while.

       

      There’s going to be more Savita Halappanavars, and Republicans will celebrate them.

      Reply
    5. 5.

      MattF

      August 25, 2023 at 12:11 pm

      Climate change, abortion, racism. And ‘Trump’, with all that implies. I don’t see Hunter Biden’s dick pics overcoming any of that, much less all of that.

      Reply
    6. 6.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 12:18 pm

      “we believe that life begins at conception.”

      YOU can believe that all you want, dude. But you don’t get to thought-police everyone else into believing it, too. (Plus, this is disingenuous because, as Pelosi said, Republicans actually believe that life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.)

      What frustrates the hell out of me is that I, a very pro-choice person, can completely understand why someone might not be personally comfortable with the idea of abortion. And I would never try to talk someone out of that belief, insofar as it related to themselves. When I was a volunteer clinic escort at PP in SF, it wasn’t like we roamed up and down Van Ness looking for obviously pregnant people and dragged them into the clinic by their hair. If someone says that they think of a fetus as a living being and they’re not personally comfortable with getting an abortion, that’s fine! But they should not think they get to demand that other people feel the same way they do, and force them to live their lives accordingly. I’ve never been pregnant (praise be), but I did have a pregnancy scare in my mid-20s, and let me tell you, I practically had the phone in hand ready to dial up PP while I watched the stick drying. And there is nothing anyone could have said to me to change my mind. And they shouldn’t try to, just like I don’t try to change their mind when it comes to their own bodies.

      Reply
    7. 7.

      RedDirtGirl

      August 25, 2023 at 12:23 pm

      What I want to know is when will it be legal in all 50 states to get an abortion up to the date of delivery? That’s what my Soros check is working towards. How come it hasn’t happened yet?

      Reply
    8. 8.

      laura

      August 25, 2023 at 12:24 pm

      Let them keep fucking that chicken. Let them die on that hill. Let them reveal themselves as the party that’s done zip, zero, nada to improve maternal health outcomes. The party that insists that little girls who are raped will be mommies when they start junior high. The party that will insist you carry and deliver your headless offspring. A party that forces you to bleed out at work, in a parking lot, at home, in a hospital is a party without a future.

      Reply
    9. 9.

      MattF

      August 25, 2023 at 12:25 pm

      @Alison Rose: A very liberal woman I knew in grad school warned me, pre-fucktually, that she would never get an abortion. And I’ve known Catholic women who are immovable on the subject. It’s a very personal matter and everyone has their own take.

      Reply
    10. 10.

      p.a.

      August 25, 2023 at 12:30 pm

      Dem pols should point out every time that these people are fucking liars.  Even if 15 weeks is their legislative marker currently, they will enact other hoops to jump through such that no one will be able to access abortion.

      Reply
    11. 11.

      smith

      August 25, 2023 at 12:33 pm

      And of course, even facing electoral disaster, they never give up. Frank LaRose, the forced-birther Secretary of State who suffered a humiliating defeat in OH on Issue 1 has prepared the summary to be used for the abortion referendum for Nov. He’s changed the language to push voters towards anti-choice, as in changing “fetus” to “unborn child.” Of course there will be a lawsuit. There’s always one more hill to climb.

      Reply
    12. 12.

      Caveatimperator

      August 25, 2023 at 12:33 pm

      @p.a.:

      The exceptions in the law are so badly written (on purpose) that they might as well not exist.

      Doctors in red states are unwilling to do medically necessary abortions because all it takes is one zealous prosecutor.

      Reply
    13. 13.

      Kay

      August 25, 2023 at 12:33 pm

      The 15 week ban leaves all the problems with medical treatment of miscarriages and non-viable pregnancies in place. They’re most vulnerable politically there, so it doesn’t even solve their biggest (political) problem which is they put no thought at all into these bans and women in affected states can no longer obtain ordinary, best practices maternal health care. You can’t get proper, medically appropriate treatment for a miscarriage in Texas. That is denied to Texas women.

      Everything they do disregards womens health. Women are simply not a consideration. It shows in each and every proposal. They should talk to medical professionals instead of clerics. They do not understand the most basic facts of pregnancy.

      Reply
    14. 14.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 12:34 pm

      @MattF: Okay, first LOL at “pre-fucktually”. But you know, that’s good that she did that! Just like back in the day when dating people was A Thing I Did, if that person was someone who could possibly impregnate me, I made it very clear that my uterus was and would remain in mint condition for as many days as God saw fit to grant me. Being on the same page on this issue with the person you’re sleeping with is smart, and yeah, everyone has the right to their own view for their own body. Unfortunately, too many on the anti side don’t see it that way…

      Reply
    15. 15.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 12:35 pm

      Betty, I read that same TPM piece and then did a little digging.

      According to Pew, 93% of all abortions in America (in 2020) were in the first trimester – the first 12 weeks.  Another 6% occurred by the 20th week.

      1% were performed at the 21st week or later.  1%!

      And the overall estimated number of abortions in this country is down by over 1/3 since peaking around 1990.  Roe didn’t have to be overturned to make that happen, obvs…it happened on its own.

      Now that is some knowledge that needs to be part of every reproductive rights argument from now until the end of time ok, the 2024 election.

      Reply
    16. 16.

      H.E.Wolf

      August 25, 2023 at 12:35 pm

      “The Only Good Abortion is My Abortion: When the Anti-Choice Choose”

      https://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml​​

      Reply
    17. 17.

      Kay

      August 25, 2023 at 12:35 pm

      @smith:

      He’s doing it to win a GOP Senate primary. He’s genuinely stupid – a dumb person – so it probably won’t work to win the primary.

      Reply
    18. 18.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 12:38 pm

      @Kay: I mean…this moment is always what I think of when we talk about how little many male politicians understand about any of this stuff.

      Reply
    19. 19.

      way2blue

      August 25, 2023 at 12:39 pm

      I’ve always been confused by this assertion since no one knows the exact moment when a sperm & egg become one.  Then of course the fertilized egg needs to successfully attach to the uterus to be viable.  That exact moment is also unknown.  Plus early weeks of pregnancy rely on modern medical tests to confirm.

      “we believe that life begins at conception.”

      Ancient religion vs modern medicine…

      Reply
    20. 20.

      laura

      August 25, 2023 at 12:39 pm

      @Kay: they do not even the basic facts of anatomy or biology. They know women are icky and damp “down there” and that’s plenty enough to begin the next steps in the plan for total subjugation of half the population. They’d like women to be forced from the workplace, forced out of the public sphere, denied financial independence, denied the right to leave a marriage and likely no more wearing pants.

      Reply
    21. 21.

      Percysowner

      August 25, 2023 at 12:40 pm

       

      I have very bad words to say about this Ohio Republicans Use Last-Ditch Gambit To Infuse Ballot Proposal With Anti-Abortion Language . I mean of course they are doing this, but I’m so mad.

      Reply
    22. 22.

      MattF

      August 25, 2023 at 12:42 pm

      @Alison Rose: Yeah, what really goes on ‘down there’ is a profound mystery.

      Reply
    23. 23.

      Snarki, child of Loki

      August 25, 2023 at 12:43 pm

      “Zygotes & Zealots”

      I really dislike this new D&D expansion kit.

      Reply
    24. 24.

      Omnes Omnibus

      August 25, 2023 at 12:43 pm

      @MattF: No one on our side should have any issue with whatever personal choice any woman makes about as personal decision as one can get.  That’s the whole point.  Alison Rose (forgive me for dragging you into this) doesn’t get to drag pregnant women off the street to force abortions on them, and no one gets to force her or anyone else to carry a fetus to term if they don’t want to.  It’s quite libertarian with a small l.

      Reply
    25. 25.

      Bill Arnold

      August 25, 2023 at 12:45 pm

      The anti-choice zealots should be called liars to their faces IMO.
      – There is no beating heart at six weeks. The dodge of saying “cardiac activity” is also a lie. (There is no heart. Cardiac: “of, relating to, situated near, or acting on the heart.”)
      – There is no brain infrastructure supporting consciousness until late in the pregnancy, and it is not clear when, after that, that consciousness actually starts.
      – There is no pain physically possible until week 23/24, because the connections from sensory neurons to the early fetal brain are not present.

      Etc.
      The whole US anti-abortion movement is theology that should be blocked from influence on public policy by the first amendment. That includes the Catholic parts. For amusement, look up the scholarly (theological) literature on ensoulment and theological explanations for edge cases like chimeras (2+ eggs, one body) and twins (1 egg, two bodies).

      Reply
    26. 26.

      Skepticat

      August 25, 2023 at 12:49 pm

      SSSSHHHH … Let them keep alienating more people.

      Reply
    27. 27.

      trollhattan

      August 25, 2023 at 12:50 pm

      @Snarki, child of Loki: The die is constructed from razor blades.

      Reply
    28. 28.

      Elizabelle

      August 25, 2023 at 12:50 pm

      I hope this will be enough for Democrats to win the House and the Senate, in addition to the Presidency.

      The Republicans have nothing to offer but extremism and tax cuts for the wealthy.  And guns guns guns in the schools and every public place possible that does not at that moment enclose a [cowardly] Republican politician.

      Younger voters also vote on climate change and personal rights (voting, reproductive freedom, the freedom to build a life, with access to healthcare and jobs and security).

      Reply
    29. 29.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 12:52 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: You are forgiven.

      One time, a protestor was yelling at me when I had walked a bit down the sidewalk to greet a patient, saying something like “Don’t steal her baby” or whatever, and I was like, what kind of power do these people think we have? I’m gonna bodysnatch the fetus right through the woman’s abdomen? Kinda blood-libel-ish, too, lol.

      Reply
    30. 30.

      BeautifulPlumage

      August 25, 2023 at 12:53 pm

      @Jeffro: ​
       thanks for getting your photos to WaterGirl yesterday. The cake decoration was very cute, down to the gel handcuffs.

      Reply
    31. 31.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 12:56 pm

      @BeautifulPlumage: Wait, where are these photos??

      Reply
    32. 32.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 12:56 pm

      @BeautifulPlumage: You’re welcome!  (but…where’d they eventually show up?  I must have missed them in some thread or another =)

      Reply
    33. 33.

      randy khan

      August 25, 2023 at 12:58 pm

      The louts at SBA are willing to allow Republican politicians to say that a 15-week ban is okay because they know it’s a lie – if the Republicans get control of Congress and the Presidency, we’ll be lucky (ha!) if the adopt a six-week ban.   (And, similarly, Haley’s bit about how nothing will happen at the federal level because the Republicans won’t get 60 Senators is a lie, too, because the SBAs of the world will say it’s a moral imperative to kill the filibuster to protect the unborn.)

      Nearly every Republican who has publicly endorsed the 15-week compromise has a long history of absolutism on the issue, and is saying it only because a lot of Republicans think that they can convince people they’re moderates on abortion by doing so.

      And, by the way, good on the Dems who have called out the 15-week legislation and kept it from being accepted as the compromise it isn’t.

      Reply
    34. 34.

      BeautifulPlumage

      August 25, 2023 at 1:00 pm

      @Jeffro: ​@Alison Rose: ​ETA didn’t work…post​
      Now nothing is working on my phone. Post two oh two on yesterday’s post .. it appears the

      Reply
    35. 35.

      cain

      August 25, 2023 at 1:02 pm

      @MattF: In fact it’s quite trite considering all the challenges that we are facing. WTF does hunter has to do with anything with the business of the american people.

      Besides at this point, this J6 thing is going to be every expanding there is going to be a lot of people expanding and don’t think that Trump won’t take down House republicans and Senators in his bid to get off. He doesn’t give a shit. His people won’t give a shit either.

      Reply
    36. 36.

      Old School

      August 25, 2023 at 1:03 pm

      @BeautifulPlumage: Try this link.

      Reply
    37. 37.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 1:03 pm

      @BeautifulPlumage: Hmm…not quite

      ETA Ahh thanks Old School! And terrific work, Jeffro :)

      Reply
    38. 38.

      MattF

      August 25, 2023 at 1:04 pm

      @randy khan: Right. The statement “I’ve decided what the compromise will be” is not a sign of good-faith negotiation.

      Reply
    39. 39.

      rikyrah

      August 25, 2023 at 1:04 pm

      Trump Mugshot Song 😂😂😂😂😂

       

      https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8Fcd5fX/

      Reply
    40. 40.

      HumboldtBlue

      August 25, 2023 at 1:06 pm

      Jesus never said a fucking word about abortion. He and Mary run a great taqueria, however.

      Reply
    41. 41.

      SNCO

      August 25, 2023 at 1:06 pm

      For those who think “life begins at conception” is an ancient teaching . . . actually it is a relatively modern innovation even in the Catholic teachings.   The debate in the Middle Ages was when the “soul” entered the baby – which usually was defined as at the “quickening” – i.e. when the mother could feel the baby moving.   So even the phrase “life begins at conception” is a modern – i.e. post 18th century – innovation responding to a better scientific understanding of conception and pregnancy.  Essentially, the theologians threw up their hands and quit trying to draw a line.

      Reply
    42. 42.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 1:07 pm

      @Alison Rose: LOL thanks

      The cake is courtesy of a HS friend and his family, who were throwing an Arraignment Party at home…his kids did the icing, obvs!

      Reply
    43. 43.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 1:08 pm

      @rikyrah: nice!

      “…jaaaaaaaail-bound trump…”  ROTFLMAO

      Reply
    44. 44.

      Wapiti

      August 25, 2023 at 1:09 pm

      @way2blue: Except Judaism, the ancient religion, believes life begins when the baby is born (when the head emerges?) (Or so I understand it.)

      The concept that life begins at quickening – when the mother can feel the baby move.. that is a ancient Greek (pagan!) belief. Now… Roman beliefs were formed by the old Greek science, and were apparently adopted by the Catholic church. It has nothing to do with the Christian Bible.

      Reply
    45. 45.

      BeautifulPlumage

      August 25, 2023 at 1:09 pm

      @Old School: ​
        Thank you, my phone keyboard just started being weird

      Reply
    46. 46.

      BellaPea

      August 25, 2023 at 1:09 pm

      I noticed that every time one of the candidates mentioned abortion, the audience showed no reaction whatsoever. Since this was a Fox News selected group, that was surprising. Tim Scott in particular seemed stunned that he got no reaction to his pontifications. I thought Nikki Haley was the only one who at least tried to offer sensible suggestions to dealing with this complicated issue, although she is anti-choice as well.

      Reply
    47. 47.

      dnfree

      August 25, 2023 at 1:10 pm

      @MattF: A very Catholic roommate in college (in the 1960s) told me that she would much rather get an abortion than use birth control.  (She meant after marriage; she was not sexually active.)  She would only have to confess an abortion to her priest once, whereas she would have to confess to using birth control every week.

      Reply
    48. 48.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 1:12 pm

      @Wapiti: It’s a little more nuanced, and of course stances differ among the different sects of Judaism. But yeah, in general we have a very different take on it than fundie Christians.

      In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth. Sources in the Talmud indicate that prior to 40 days of gestation, the fetus has an even more limited legal status, with one Talmudic authority (Yevamot 69b) asserting that prior to 40 days the fetus is “mere water.” Elsewhere, the Talmud indicates that the ancient rabbis regarded a fetus as part of its mother throughout the pregnancy, dependent fully on her for its life — a view that echoes the position that women should be free to make decisions concerning their own bodies.

      And in most corners, Jews do not only allow abortion but specifically recommend it if the pregnant person’s life or mental health is at risk. This is why rabbis and Jewish orgs have sued over abortion bans on religious freedom grounds.

      Reply
    49. 49.

      Quinerly

      August 25, 2023 at 1:12 pm

      Probably posted by now:

      https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-mar-lago-sold-arrest-listing-1822370

      Reply
    50. 50.

      BeautifulPlumage

      August 25, 2023 at 1:12 pm

      @Jeffro: ​
        I like how the yellow balloon is also the head ferret he wears, and the frowny face.

      Reply
    51. 51.

      smith

      August 25, 2023 at 1:13 pm

      @dnfree: I’ve seen the same explanation for Catholics who choose to be sterilized.

      Reply
    52. 52.

      dnfree

      August 25, 2023 at 1:14 pm

      @Wapiti: I have tried to convince the evangelical Christians I know that the Bible links breath with life.  Furthermore, I tell them that when my children were delivered, the most stressful moment was seeing that they breathed after delivery.  The distinction between being alive in utero and being alive and breathing at birth is very real.  Not breathing is a stillbirth.  That fetus never became a living human being.

      Reply
    53. 53.

      Anonymous At Work

      August 25, 2023 at 1:14 pm

      The overall problem Republicans have created for themselves is their embrace of single-issue voters.  Trumpsters and their “feel good about hating non-whites”, xenophobes, Christian dominionists, ammosexuals, and anti-choice zealots are all part of the [kiddie] tent for Republicans.  Any one of these groups can make or break BOTH the primary and the general election for non-heterodox candidates, and both sides know it.

      Dobbs and Bruen are both dog-caught-the-car moments that were built upon decades of work to assist the dog in chasing the car and *almost* catching it.  However, there wasn’t a plan for when the dog caught the car and having the car’s owner confront the dog’s owner.

      To bravely extend the metaphor, general voters, especially white suburban women, were dismissive of the dog catching the car, thought it was kinda cute, and didn’t think the GOP was serious about allowing such a thing to happen.  NOW, the dog’s caught the car, chewed its tires flat, taken a dump of the windshield, and trying to hump the exhaust pipe into submission.  IN front of witnesses.  And the best explanation the GOP can manage is that it’s not HIS car, but his child’s.

      Reply
    54. 54.

      MisterDancer

      August 25, 2023 at 1:19 pm

      @dnfree: I have tried to convince the evangelical Christians I know that the Bible links breath with life.

      You’re a better person than I am, these days.

      Reply
    55. 55.

      HumboldtBlue

      August 25, 2023 at 1:19 pm

      Well this absolutely fucking sucks.

      Carlos Santana Pauses Own Concert to Go on Transphobic Rant

      Reply
    56. 56.

      BeautifulPlumage

      August 25, 2023 at 1:21 pm

      I saved a Nation article from decades ago that really put it well: a fertilized egg is a potential baby, but billions of biological and chemical changes need to take place correctly for a viable full term pregnancy.
      I had no idea how commonly first pregnancies end in miscarriages until a friend experienced that with her first pregnancy. It’s why folks traditionaly didn’t publicly acknowledge a pregnancy until the 3rd or 4th month.

      Reply
    57. 57.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 1:23 pm

      I know this is totally OT but if one of the front-pagers could post Bret Terhune’s “mug shot” rant from Twitter either here or in the next open thread, omg, y’all are going to die..

      “Just like Frank’s Red Hot, I’m going to be putting this mug shot on ev-er-y-thing…”  =)

      Reply
    58. 58.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 1:28 pm

      @HumboldtBlue: WTF. Why can’t these fuckers just keep their shitass opinions to themselves?

      Reply
    59. 59.

      Roger Moore

      August 25, 2023 at 1:28 pm

      @Kay: ​

      Everything they do disregards womens health. Women are simply not a consideration.

      That is the absolute core. The strict anti-abortion position can only be understood as the belief that a fetus (or embryo, or zygote) has more rights than the woman carrying it. This is why I don’t like arguing issues like whether the cardiac cell activity in a 6 week-old embryo constitutes a “fetal heart beat”. Arguing that point concedes that at some point the fetus/embryo/zygote gets rights that override those of the pregnant woman; it’s just quibbling about how far along in the pregnancy that point is. The answer is never. As long as the fetus is depending on someone else’s body for life support, its rights take a back seat to the person providing that life support.

      Reply
    60. 60.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 1:30 pm

      @Jeffro: “Looking like Michelangelo hisself chiseled this man outta the finest butter they got down at the state fair”

      DYING OMG

      Reply
    61. 61.

      MisterDancer

      August 25, 2023 at 1:31 pm

      @Kay: Everything they do disregards womens health. Women are simply not a consideration.

      Almost like they are considered, y’know, property, or something.

      Reply
    62. 62.

      Betty Cracker

      August 25, 2023 at 1:32 pm

      @TaMara: Not at all — thanks!

      Reply
    63. 63.

      jimmiraybob

      August 25, 2023 at 1:32 pm

      I’m on the run (no, not from surrendering to a jail in AL) so I will just say that autonomy for women with respect to health care is likely only the beginning and that war against financial autonomy is probably up next.

      Reply
    64. 64.

      Mai Naem mobileI

      August 25, 2023 at 1:33 pm

      @Quinerly: i think that has to do with the Florida homestead thing and transferring it to Cokehead Jr. Wonder what if anything it means for Melania?

      Reply
    65. 65.

      Bupalos

      August 25, 2023 at 1:36 pm

      The Republicans have nothing to offer but extremism and tax cuts for the wealthy.

      This isn’t true, and I don’t think we should underestimate our opponents like this. They are offering a powerfully vague vision of returning the country to a fictitious, glorious, unified past. All that is required for that to work on people is for people not to think about it longer than 10 seconds.

      Just like we say “tick-tock, Mfers”, the architects of what we face may be saying “TikTok, Mfers”

      Reply
    66. 66.

      Anoniminous

      August 25, 2023 at 1:37 pm

      @Alison Rose: ​
       

      When people go off the wall ranty-ravey on a topic that on the surface concerns them Not At All I wonder what else going on. Like, maybe Carlos Santana secretly in “his” (sic) heart fervently wishes she was Carlie Santana?

      Reply
    67. 67.

      Caveatimperator

      August 25, 2023 at 1:40 pm

      @Anoniminous:

      It could just be old people who are really mad that the world is different and they don’t understand it anymore.

      Reply
    68. 68.

      Mai Naem mobileI

      August 25, 2023 at 1:41 pm

      I hope Roe v Wade is still a fresh topic by Nov 2024. I  see the 10-13 yr old getting raped and pregnant cases getting coverage. I don’t see the miscarriage not being able to be completed safely getting as much coverage. More people can imagine that affecting them or affecting women they know personally.

      Reply
    69. 69.

      waspuppet

      August 25, 2023 at 1:42 pm

      Can they not see they’ve staked out a position that’s incredibly unpopular and likely to blow up in their faces?

      They’ve known that since about 1982, and not just on this issue. Their plan to win elections focuses on tactics that are, shall we say, even better than legal.

      Also, they’ve had more than a year to come up with that great maternal health plan their apologists keep insisting is right around the corner. It’s almost as if they don’t have one, they don’t want to come up with one, and their apologists who continue to insist they aren’t woman-hating monsters are wrong. Again.

      Reply
    70. 70.

      Bupalos

      August 25, 2023 at 1:43 pm

      In Ohio Yost/LaRose now fucking with the language of the summary for the November constitutional issue… the one they failed to change the rules for with the August special election.

      Instead of phrasing it as a restriction on the state interfering with reproductive rights, he’s changed it to a restriction on citizens of the state. And changing “fetus” to “unborn child.” This is so fucking gross.

      Reply
    71. 71.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 1:44 pm

      @Anoniminous: Let’s not do that. The idea that homophobes and transphobes are secretly gay and/or trans is a pernicious one and feeds into some very negative ideas about queer people.

      Some people are just cranky hateful bigots, especially older cis dudes.

      Reply
    72. 72.

      Steve in the ATL

      August 25, 2023 at 1:44 pm

      At the Atlanta airport, a large percentage of the adult male travelers, including moi, are wearing golf shirts.  This is neither unusual nor disturbing

      At the airport in Kentucky, however, where today’s journey began, a much smaller, but large enough to be disturbing, percentage of adult male travelers were wearing overalls.

      Takeaway: Andy Beshear has an impossible job ahead of him.

      Reply
    73. 73.

      The Thin Black Duke

      August 25, 2023 at 1:44 pm

      @Mai Naem mobileI: By 2024, women won’t need the news to tell them about other women who’ve been brutally impacted by Dobbs.

      Reply
    74. 74.

      Miss Bianca

      August 25, 2023 at 1:45 pm

      @MattF: Yeah, that’s kind of what the term “pro-choice” means, isn’t it. Doesn’t fucking matter to me what someone’s personal feelings are about abortion – they can feel however they want to about it. That’s fine as long as they are not actively interfering with someone else’s choices about parenthood.

      Reply
    75. 75.

      ginkgo

      August 25, 2023 at 1:46 pm

      I don’t know how these people can argue that life begins at conception. Both gametes (egg and sperm) are alive. It’s not like they died when fertilization took place. They just combined to form another living cell.

      Reply
    76. 76.

      Miss Bianca

      August 25, 2023 at 1:49 pm

      @H.E.Wolf: Yup, ran into this situation more than once working at Planned Parenthood. “I’m not like *those* sluts out there, *my* abortion is pure!”

      Reply
    77. 77.

      Old School

      August 25, 2023 at 1:51 pm

      @HumboldtBlue:

      Carlos Santana Pauses Own Concert to Go on Transphobic Rant

      It’s disappointing.  Alice Cooper had a similar thing this week.

      Reply
    78. 78.

      Quinerly

      August 25, 2023 at 1:52 pm

      @HumboldtBlue:

      Alice Cooper has done something similar.

      Reply
    79. 79.

      Anoniminous

      August 25, 2023 at 1:55 pm

      @Alison Rose: ​
       
      It is pernicious AND I saw it played out during the Plague Years when friends were getting sick and dying while Deep In the Closet Mr. Garment Bag of 1987 lead the daily 2 Minute Hate and denied research and treatment funding.

      Reply
    80. 80.

      Steve in the ATL

      August 25, 2023 at 1:55 pm

      @Quinerly: you’re almost turning into a regular again!

      Reply
    81. 81.

      Kay

      August 25, 2023 at 1:57 pm

      @Roger Moore:

      That is the absolute core. The strict anti-abortion position can only be understood as the belief that a fetus (or embryo, or zygote) has more rights than the woman carrying it.

      That’s exactly where I ended up and exactly how I got there, after much thought and many patronizing lectures from male conservatives in law school. If women don’t have bodily autonomy they don’t have basic rights. That’s why it has to be her decision. It’s really profound as far as agency and autonomy. I actually think it was key to women making the advances they have made – not a “result” of womens rights but one of the drivers of womens rights. It affects how we think of ourselves – we can’t be subordinate to a pregnancy.

      Reply
    82. 82.

      Quinerly

      August 25, 2023 at 2:00 pm

      @Steve in the ATL:

      Sitting in Santa Fe’s version of the DMV. Ford Escape finally getting chile pepper plates and titled in NM. Not as exotic as the airport but interesting.

      Reply
    83. 83.

      WaterGirl

      August 25, 2023 at 2:03 pm

      @BeautifulPlumage: @Alison Rose:

      It Appears That the 10/23 Date Fani Proposed Was Only Accepted for Cheese-Bro 1 It Appears That the 10/23 Date Fani Proposed Was Only Accepted for Cheese-Bro

      Reply
    84. 84.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 2:05 pm

      @Anoniminous: Okay, I’m not saying it never happens. But immediately going to “i bet he’s secretly trans” is not okay and not a thing we should be doing. Most bigots are just bigots.

      Reply
    85. 85.

      Miss Bianca

      August 25, 2023 at 2:05 pm

      @WaterGirl: ha ha, gel handcuffs are exactly as awesome as described!

      Reply
    86. 86.

      ian

      August 25, 2023 at 2:06 pm

       Can they not see they’ve staked out a position that’s incredibly unpopular and likely to blow up in their faces?

      No, I don’t think they can (or are willing to try).  The most fervent conservatives really do live in a bubble.  Fox news and other media tell them that what they believe is mainstream opinion.  If challenged on their beliefs, if presented with data that suggests a majority of people disagree with their position on say climate or guns, the data is rejected as fake or liberal bias.

      Reply
    87. 87.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 2:06 pm

      I am a male and I do not have a vagina and never been able to bear children so to me this is almost a non issue. Almost, as in participation of my side of humanity is most often part of the concept of pregnancy but it is still NOT my body. It should not be under my control for any female human being that is at or past the first possibility of pregnancy. Woman have the same exact agency as any male, it is their body and their decision on the use of it. What’s that old political saying – “To Be Or Not To Be.” This should never, ever fucking ever be a question. IT IS NOT MY BODY. I can have an opinion but not a controlling one in any way.

      And once again, my opinion is that this is, in this day and age, 100000% a woman’s decision and right.

      Reply
    88. 88.

      WaterGirl

      August 25, 2023 at 2:07 pm

      @Jeffro: I posted them in the thread where you were talking about them last night!

      Reply
    89. 89.

      WaterGirl

      August 25, 2023 at 2:09 pm

      @Jeffro: Post a link for me, and I can do that.

      Reply
    90. 90.

      Other MJS

      August 25, 2023 at 2:10 pm

      @ginkgo: Exactly. Life began billions of years ago. (Specific) DNA begins at conception.

      Reply
    91. 91.

      WaterGirl

      August 25, 2023 at 2:10 pm

      @Roger Moore: @Kay:

      Everything they do disregards womens health  WOMEN.

      Fixed that for you.

      Reply
    92. 92.

      Sure Lurkalot

      August 25, 2023 at 2:11 pm

      @Mai Naem mobileI: There’s someone to follow if you Twitter, Nitter or Substack…Jessica Valenti.

      Sample from yesterday: https://open.substack.com/pub/jessica/p/the-abortion-numbers-that-matter?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

      Reply
    93. 93.

      misterpuff

      August 25, 2023 at 2:14 pm

      Back to the bad old days:

      Rumor spreadin’ ’round
      In that Texas town
      About that shack outside La Grange
      And you know what I’m talkin’ about
      Just let me know if you hafta go
      To that Doc out on the range
      They help a lot of nice girls

      Have mercy

      Zygote Zealot Top

      Reply
    94. 94.

      H.E.Wolf

      August 25, 2023 at 2:15 pm

      Another pro-choice voice, from 1982: Ursula K. Le Guin. This is a slightly abridged version, but the gist is there.
      https://www.readingistherapy.com/ursula-le-guin-on-abortion/?fbclid=IwAR3FjLSBBunmnM3P9OWmmdleM-2xEyC18ZrhQ2jSBc4vnvf_N0gssuxP8pE

      “We are not going back to the Dark Ages. We are not going to let anybody in this country have that kind of power over any girl or woman. There are great powers, outside the government and in it, trying to legislate the return of darkness. We are not great powers. But we are the light. Nobody can put us out. May all of you shine very bright and steady today and always.”

      Reply
    95. 95.

      Baud

      August 25, 2023 at 2:15 pm

      Via Reddit, sound like anyone you know?

      Russian intelligence is operating a systematic program to launder pro-Kremlin propaganda through private relationships between Russian operatives and unwitting US and western targets, according to newly declassified US intelligence.

      US intelligence agencies believe that the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) is attempting to influence public policy and public opinion in the West by directing Russian civilians to build relationships with influential US and Western individuals and then disseminate narratives that support Kremlin objectives, obscuring the FSB’s role through layers of ostensibly independent actors

      Reply
    96. 96.

      sab

      August 25, 2023 at 2:15 pm

      @SNCO: Anti-abortion legislation came later, when male physicians started flexing political muscle to supplant (non-voting) women midwives. Less to do with safety and sound medical practice and more to do with turf.

      Physicians are extremely competitive about their turf, even amongst each other. My parents belonged to a snooty country club. On the admissions committee it required two doctors to blackball a physician’s membership application. They knew there would always already be one physicians voting against another’s membership.

      Reply
    97. 97.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 2:15 pm

      @laura:

      I’m old enough to have known one of those girls – women. You get pregnant you graduate from girl to woman, automatically in my book. Boys graduate to men when they recognize that they are not in any way superior, and often not even equal.

      We can cause pregnancy, we can enjoy (or not) the results, but we can not get there, so we do not have the right to control this in any way possible. And until that is understood this country, this world, will never be actually a free place to live.

      Reply
    98. 98.

      UncleEbeneezer

      August 25, 2023 at 2:16 pm

      Speaking of GOP attacks on bodily autonomy based on lies:

      Evidence Undermines ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’ Claims- Fears of “social contagion,” used to support anti-transgender legislation, are not supported by science

      A recent study claiming to describe more than 1,600 possible cases of a “socially contagious syndrome” was retracted in June for failing to obtain ethics approval from an institutional review board. The survey examined “rapid-onset gender dysphoria,” a proposed condition that attributes adolescent gender distress to exposure to transgender people through friends or social media. The existence of such a syndrome has been the subject of intense debate for the past several years and has fueled arguments against transgender rights reforms, despite being widely criticized by medical experts.

      The American Psychological Association and 61 other health care providers’ organizations signed a letter in 2021 denouncing the validity of rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) as a clinical diagnosis. And a steadily growing bodyof scientific evidence demonstrates that it does not reflect transgender adolescents’ experiences and that “social contagion” is not causing more young people to seek gender-affirming care. Still, the concept continues to be used to justify anti-trans legislation across the U.S.

      “To even say it’s a hypothesis at this point, based on the paucity of research on this, I think is a real stretch,” says Eli Coleman, former president of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health.

      Reply
    99. 99.

      Matt McIrvin

      August 25, 2023 at 2:16 pm

      @way2blue: By “conception” they mean when people have sex, because this is about controlling sexual morality. The actual moment of conception doesn’t enter into it or they pretend that the two moments are the same.

      Reply
    100. 100.

      Tony G

      August 25, 2023 at 2:17 pm

      @Alison Rose: Of course, the logical implication of this “philosophy” is that every woman who experiences a miscarriage (aka a spontaneous abortion) must be detained by the police until an investigation to determine whether the abortion was, in fact, spontaneous, can be completed.  I can see this coming next, at least in certain God-fearing red states.

      Reply
    101. 101.

      Old School

      August 25, 2023 at 2:18 pm

      @Jeffro:

      I know this is totally OT but if one of the front-pagers could post Bret Terhune’s “mug shot” rant from Twitter either here or in the next open thread, omg, y’all are going to die..

      @WaterGirl:

      Post a link for me, and I can do that.

      Here you go:

      Trump’s mug shot pic.twitter.com/CYIly9uuuj— Brent Terhune in Nashville, IN Aug 26 (@BrentTerhune) August 25, 2023

      Reply
    102. 102.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 2:18 pm

      @WaterGirl: Got it!  Thank you very much. :)

      Reply
    103. 103.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 2:19 pm

      @Old School: thanks!  I had to step away and play ball w/ the dog for a bit or else she was gonna nudge me to death.  =)

      Reply
    104. 104.

      Ksmiami

      August 25, 2023 at 2:20 pm

      @kindness: never ever trust the GOP on women’s rights and health. They will always go for the extreme.

      Reply
    105. 105.

      FelonyGovt

      August 25, 2023 at 2:21 pm

      Haven’t read all the comments, someone may have mentioned it but I was really struck by the South Carolina Supreme Court reversing itself to uphold their abortion ban, particularly this:

      “Writing for the new majority, Justice John Kittredge acknowledged that the 2023 law also infringes on ‘a woman’s right of privacy and bodily autonomy,’ but said the state Legislature reasonably determined this time around that those interests don’t outweigh ‘the interest of the unborn child to live.”’

      So a clump of cells is more important than a woman’s privacy and right to control what happens in her life.

      Reply
    106. 106.

      evodevo

      August 25, 2023 at 2:21 pm

      @BeautifulPlumage:  Yep…it’s been estimated that 50-75% of fertilized eggs don’t make it through the first trimester and are miscarried…I often quote that stat to talibangelicals I know, and ask them to explain it in terms of souls, God, etc.  They usually change the subject or just splutter…

      Reply
    107. 107.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 2:22 pm

      “they” are coming for everything,

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/interactive/2023/michigan-sex-educator-culture-wars/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

      Sorry it’s not a free link.

      Reply
    108. 108.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 2:23 pm

      @Tony G: Not even just that — some fertilized eggs don’t implant and come out with your menstrual fluid. As George Carlin put it: “What these anti-abortion people are telling us is that any woman who has had more than one period is a serial killer.”

      Reply
    109. 109.

      JaneE

      August 25, 2023 at 2:23 pm

      our goal should be not just to make abortion illegal, but totally unthinkable for every American citizen

      If abortion is unthinkable, then killing women must be not only thinkable but desirable.

      I think a good billboard would be showing the product of an abortion at 7 weeks or so (like the Guardian did) and a picture of a dead young woman and asking the viewer whose death should be unthinkable.

      Reply
    110. 110.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 2:24 pm

      @FelonyGovt: Yeppppppp. Giving their whole game away like it’s a mint on a hotel pillow.

      As I ranted on FB:

      Focus on the word “autonomy” here. Autonomy is defined as “independence or freedom, as of the will or one’s actions”. So essentially, in the minds of South Carolina m3n, actual living breathing non-male humans deserve less independence than a COMPLETELY DEPENDENT FETUS. This is a six-week ban. A seven-week old fetus is incapable of independence, and yet it gets elevated above the person it is living off of. JFC.

      How about this: Anyone in South Carolina who has a hysterectomy, have your surgeon pack the uterus in ice and FedEx it to the state’s Supreme Court. If they’re so damned eager to shove their noses into your uterus metaphorically, let ’em do it literally to their hearts’ content. Assholes.

      Reply
    111. 111.

      Manyakitty

      August 25, 2023 at 2:26 pm

      @Steve in the ATL: what does that mean? It sounds weird, but??

      Reply
    112. 112.

      Anoniminous

      August 25, 2023 at 2:27 pm

      @Alison Rose: ​
       
      I wrote “I wonder” not “I bet.”

      But nice try on the Strawman Informal Logical Fallacy.

      Reply
    113. 113.

      Manyakitty

      August 25, 2023 at 2:29 pm

      @WaterGirl: I only saw the cake yesterday 😂😂😂🎉🇺🇲🫠

      Reply
    114. 114.

      wjca

      August 25, 2023 at 2:30 pm

      @ginkgo:

      I don’t know how these people can argue that life begins at conception. Both gametes (egg and sperm) are alive. It’s not like they died when fertilization took place. They just combined to form another living cell.

      Let’s face it, most of these people are not strong on science.  Any science, including biology.  So something like this goes right by them.

      Reply
    115. 115.

      catothedog

      August 25, 2023 at 2:32 pm

      @FelonyGovt:

      So a clump of cells is more important than a woman’s privacy and right to control what happens in her life.

      Behind all this talk is the attempt to control women

      Specifically when women can have sex.   If you really force them, they will admit that women have privacy and autonomy rights, but women give it up when they chose to have sex

      Its all all about relegating women to be breeding slaves

      Reply
    116. 116.

      Mike in NC

      August 25, 2023 at 2:34 pm

      I actually saw Fat Bastard being quizzed about abortion and declaring there had to be some form of punishment for the nasty sluts. It was as though he never gave the subject a nanosecond of consideration before.

      This from the creep who bragged about grabbing women and who was said by Michael Cohen to have arranged for abortions for an unknown number of undocumented workers who Trump forced himself on. Republican mendacity and hypocrisy at its finest.

      Reply
    117. 117.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 2:35 pm

      @Anoniminous: It’s not a strawman when I’m responding to the actual thing you said, though. Sure, you said “I wonder” and I realize you’re not claiming you know this for sure or something. My point is that this kind of wondering happens very often in these cases, and it’s not appropriate even as a joke. Because the thing is, when it DOES happen that someone is gay or trans and is self-loathing over that and overcompensates by being bigoted, it’s not usually limited to mean tweets or cranky rants on stage. Those people often escalate to violence, like jumping gay men outside a bar or sexually assaulting trans people. Even as a jesting muse, it’s based on something really awful and often fatal

      And to be clear, I’m not putting any of this on you or calling you a bigot or anything like that. Just trying to note why this kind of joke or wondering isn’t cool to do, that’s all.

      Reply
    118. 118.

      sab

      August 25, 2023 at 2:35 pm

      @catothedog: It is worse than that. Back before Roe v Wade, marital rape was a not uncommon solution to failing marriages. Force a kid on her and she’ll be bound to you for at least the next eighteen years.

      Reply
    119. 119.

      zhena gogolia

      August 25, 2023 at 2:35 pm

      @Baud: “unwitting” my ass

      Reply
    120. 120.

      smith

      August 25, 2023 at 2:37 pm

      @catothedog: Its all all about relegating women to be breeding slaves

      I always thought it was essentially making women into livestock. Whichever construct you use, the underlying “logic” is that a woman is somebody’s property.

      You can see it in the push to punish women who go to free states to get abortions. They would never try to prosecute a man who, say, traveled from his home state of WI, where recreational pot is illegal, to buy and smoke some pot in IL, where it is legal.

      Reply
    121. 121.

      Geminid

      August 25, 2023 at 2:39 pm

      @Jeffro: I don’t know how much of Terhune’s monologues you have seen, but if you haven’t seen the one about the Lake Travis Boat Parade you should check it out. His “A Message from Q-Anon” is pretty good also.

      Terhune and Betty Bowers also did a funny one where they play a redneck couple with a daughter named Tyranny and a boy named Fraction.

      Reply
    122. 122.

      JCJ

      August 25, 2023 at 2:43 pm

      @Steve in the ATL:  Maybe the men in overalls were simply anticipating a visit from The Blogmaster and wanted him to feel at home

      Reply
    123. 123.

      Cowgirl in the Sandi

      August 25, 2023 at 2:49 pm

      @Quinerly:

      OT again but thanks for the reply in last night’s threads about the western bars near Santa Fe!!  We’ll check them out

      Reply
    124. 124.

      Elizabelle

      August 25, 2023 at 2:49 pm

      @Miss Bianca:  And the hair.  Chef’s kiss.

      Reply
    125. 125.

      The Pale Scot

      August 25, 2023 at 2:49 pm

      @MattF:

      warned me, pre-fucktually, that she would never get an abortion.

      Uhm… Have a nice day.

      Reply
    126. 126.

      Gravenstone

      August 25, 2023 at 2:52 pm

      @smith: They would never try to prosecute a man who, say, traveled from his home state of WI, where recreational pot is illegal, to buy and smoke some pot in IL, where it is legal.

      Plenty of billboards up here reminding folks pot is legal in MI, too.

      Reply
    127. 127.

      The Pale Scot

      August 25, 2023 at 2:56 pm

      @randy khan:

      we’ll be lucky (ha!) if the adopt a six-week ban

      Attach an amendment making pregnancy tests free and delivered weekly

       

      Reply
    128. 128.

      BeautifulPlumage

      August 25, 2023 at 3:00 pm

      @WaterGirl: ​
       Thanks WaterGirl, you’re the best!

      Reply
    129. 129.

      The Pale Scot

      August 25, 2023 at 3:00 pm

      @SNCO:

      The Torah other writings I believe says that the soul enters the body on the first breath

      Reply
    130. 130.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 3:00 pm

      @Geminid: I’ve seen most and yes, the Boat Parade one is just killer

      “…and…and a bunch of other nautical terms happened…”

      LOLOL

      Reply
    131. 131.

      Geminid

      August 25, 2023 at 3:05 pm

      @JCJ: I’m not too worried about Andy Beshear’s reelection. He’s the most popular Democratic governor in the country, with an overall aporoval rating of 64% and 49% among Kentucky Republicans. Recent polls show Beshear with a 10 point lead, with one outlier at 4%.

      If Beshear wins, his term will end January, 2028. That’s just in time to run for Rand Paul’s Senate seat. I think Paul will retire, because he would not stand a chance against Beshear.

      Reply
    132. 132.

      skerry

      August 25, 2023 at 3:07 pm

      @Ruckus: Pregnancy does not “graduate” a child to an adult.

      Reply
    133. 133.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 3:07 pm

      Oh and btw folks (my bad) it’s Brent Terhune, not Bret

      TONS of good stuff on YouTube, too!  =)

      Reply
    134. 134.

      Yarrow

      August 25, 2023 at 3:15 pm

      @Matt McIrvin:

      By “conception” they mean when people have sex, because this is about controlling sexual morality

      It’s about controlling women. It’s about taking away a woman’s right to decide how her life will be and give that right to a man or men. Like the old days. Abortion is part of it but they’re coming for voting rights. They’re already talking about it. Sure, they want to control sexual morality, but only of women. Men can do what they want. They want to control women.

      Reply
    135. 135.

      The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion

      August 25, 2023 at 3:20 pm

      @way2blue: With all due respect, no.  Anti-abortion sentiment has nothing to do with ancient religion.  The ancient religion explicitly regarded the fetus as an animal that receives the soul upon the first breath drawn from the womb, and contains provision for Divinely sanctioned abortion/induced miscarriage in the event of pregnancy from an adulterous relationship.  Opposition to abortion as a religious stance is (relatively) modern.

      While the Didache (early Christian) forbids abortion, St. Augustine and other early Church fathers held differing views on when “Quickening” occurred.  The modern cult of the fetus is born of highly selective dogma driven by the urge to accumulate political power.

      Reply
    136. 136.

      wjca

      August 25, 2023 at 3:23 pm

      How much further detatched from reality is it possible to get?

      If they want to win, Republicans need to go on offense on abortion

      By Kellyanne Conway and Marjorie Dannenfelser

      Reply
    137. 137.

      Another Scott

      August 25, 2023 at 3:26 pm

      Pence, no doubt, is in favor of Constitutional prohibitions on weaving together wool and linen and planting mixed seeds.

      He can believe what he wants to believe. He can like the Yankees, or the Cowboys, or mixing plaids and polka-dots. He has no special right to impose his beliefs on others. Citing some old book, that has had all kinds of revisions and excisions over the millennia doesn’t add weight to his professed preferences.

      Grr…,
      Scott.

      Reply
    138. 138.

      Scout211

      August 25, 2023 at 3:27 pm

      @The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:

      The modern cult of the fetus is born of highly selective dogma driven by the urge to accumulate political power.

      THIS!

      Reply
    139. 139.

      Baud

      August 25, 2023 at 3:27 pm

      @wjca:

      I think they are already pretty offensive when it comes to abortion.

      Reply
    140. 140.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 3:28 pm

      @wjca:

      The crazy has just started, and there is no bottom to it,…..

      Just like there is no Peak Wingnut.

      Reply
    141. 141.

      Too an-anj

      August 25, 2023 at 3:29 pm

      @MattF: every pro-choice woman is immobile until they are faced with the situation. Nobody knows what they will do until they face it. I speak from experience.

      Reply
    142. 142.

      cain

      August 25, 2023 at 3:29 pm

      @HumboldtBlue: It sucks when your heros betray you. Great job, Carlos – fuck off. Glad I was never a fan.

      Reply
    143. 143.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 3:29 pm

      @FelonyGovt:

      So a clump of cells is more important than a woman’s privacy and right to control what happens in her life.

      To conservatives, yes.

      It amazes me that conservative women seem to think that they do not deserve autonomy over their own bodies and lives. How the hell does one think they live in an actual free country AND that they are under the ludicrous control of men who can NEVER be in their position? The complete lack of any logic whatsoever escapes me.

      Reply
    144. 144.

      Jim, Foolish Literalist

      August 25, 2023 at 3:30 pm

      @Scout211: wasn’t it one of Nixon’s cronies who said of Pat Robertson that he didn’t know how to spell abortion before 1973?

      Reply
    145. 145.

      smith

      August 25, 2023 at 3:32 pm

      @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes, among Protestants at least, those “ancient” religious prohibitions go all the way back to the 1970s.

      Reply
    146. 146.

      wjca

      August 25, 2023 at 3:35 pm

      @Ruckus:

      It amazes me that conservative women seem to think that they do not deserve autonomy over their own bodies and lives.

      Are you familiar with Stockholm Syndrom?

      Reply
    147. 147.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 3:35 pm

      @MisterDancer:

      Not Something.

      Actual Property.

      It’s the I paid for the ring, I paid for the wedding, I’m the one that brings home the check every week, etc. It’s not like women are shackled to the stove or the vacuum, or have been for what, the last at least what, 100 yrs? It’s asinine or whatever the hell is way past asinine.

      Reply
    148. 148.

      Scout211

      August 25, 2023 at 3:36 pm

      I’m not sure if this has been posted here or not, but Texas has passed a law that allows physicians to terminate a pregnancy in 2 specific cases of pregnancy complications.  The bipartisan bill was passed and signed into law by Abbott. It’s a small step but a step, nevertheless.  NPR has the story.

      Texas’s Republican Governor Greg Abbott addressed a rally earlier this year, celebrating the abortion bans that took effect after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade.

      “As long as I am governor of the great state of Texas, Texas will always protect the unborn,” he told a cheering crowd.

      So it may be surprising that just a few weeks ago, Abbott signed a law giving doctors leeway to provide abortions in Texas when a patient’s water breaks too early and for ectopic pregnancies. There was considerably less fanfare for that signing.

      The new law, which goes into effect Sept. 1, is the work of a Houston Democratic lawmaker who built bipartisan support to get the bill all the way to the governor’s desk. How did she do it? For starters, the new law has no mention of the word “abortion.”

      . . .

      Johnson says she felt like the physicians she talked to and her Republican colleagues used the word “abortion” in completely different ways. Doctors used abortion to describe any termination of pregnancy, including if the fetus had a fatal condition, or if the pregnant patient was facing a serious medical complication.

      For politicians who oppose abortion rights, she says, “they believe abortion to be the elective procedure on a completely healthy fetus.” Johnson believes the goal of the Texas abortion bans is to stop these “elective” abortions, but the laws do not make that distinction.

      . . .

      The final bill is not as broad as Johnson’s original text. It outlines two conditions where doctors can provide abortions: preterm premature rupture of membranes (the medical term for when someone’s water breaks too early) and ectopic pregnancy (which happens when a fertilized egg implants somewhere besides the uterine lining).

      . . .
      Rep. Ann Johnson says she’s proud of H.B. 3058. She says no other piece of legislation that addressed abortions even got a hearing. “I think what was key about this legislation is that it did not have the term ‘abortion’ in it, and because of that, it did not become a political football.”

      Reply
    149. 149.

      cain

      August 25, 2023 at 3:40 pm

      Not one highlander reference in this thread. I’m deeply disappointed.

      Reply
    150. 150.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 3:40 pm

      @wjca:

      Jess Hill (2019)
      In her 2019 treatise on domestic violence See What You Made Me Do, Australian journalist Jess Hill described the syndrome as a “dubious pathology with no diagnostic criteria”, and stated that it is “riddled with misogyny and founded on a lie”; she also noted that a 2008 literature review revealed “most diagnoses [of Stockholm syndrome] are made by the media, not by psychologists or psychiatrists.” In particular, Hill’s analysis revealed that Stockholm authorities — under direct guidance from Bejerot — responded to the robbery in a way that put the hostages at greater risk from the police than from their captors (hostage Kristin Enmark, who during the siege was granted a telephone call with Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme, reported that Palme told her that the government would not negotiate with criminals, and that “you will have to content yourself that you will have died at your post”); as well, she observed that not only was Bejerot’s diagnosis of Enmark made without ever having spoken to her, it was in direct response to her public criticism of his actions during the siege.[6]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

      Reply
    151. 151.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 3:41 pm

      @cain:

      That’s One,……….

      Reply
    152. 152.

      Karen

      August 25, 2023 at 3:42 pm

      @H.E.Wolf: ​
        The link doesn’t work.

      Reply
    153. 153.

      zhena gogolia

      August 25, 2023 at 3:43 pm

      @Scout211: Yes, very well put.

      Reply
    154. 154.

      Redshift

      August 25, 2023 at 3:45 pm

      Virginia legislative elections this fall are worth watching (and supporting!) GOPers here are pushing the idea that the 15-week ban is a “compromise” (because that’s the latest to come down the “what everyone should now believe” message pipeline.) In reality, it’s a “compromise” between their extremists and Republicans who like winning elections, but they’re trying to say Democrats who weren’t consulted should just support it because compromise!

      This has been even more undermined but Youngkin having repeatedly said he’ll sign any abortion legislation that comes to his desk, and a legislator in a swing district getting captured in in tape saying of course he really wants a total ban, but 15 weeks may be all that will pass. (Some clever reproductive rights activists posed as anti-abortion types and asked him.)

      Dems are running on abortion explicitly, but it’s the lowest turnout of our every-year election marathon, so anything could happen, sadly.

      Reply
    155. 155.

      Omnes Omnibus

      August 25, 2023 at 3:45 pm

      @cain: There can be only one and you made it.

      Reply
    156. 156.

      Old School

      August 25, 2023 at 3:46 pm

      Carlos Santana apologizes:

      The criticism Santana faced on Thursday prompted the “Smooth” singer to release a statement on his Facebook page, where he wrote, “I am sorry for my insensitive comments.”

      “They don’t reflect that I want to honor and respect all person’s (sic) ideals and beliefs. I realize that what I said hurt people and that was not my intent. I sincerely apologize to the transgender community and everyone I offended,” his statement continued.

      Santana went on to mention that his “personal goal” is to “honor and respect all person’s (sic) ideals and beliefs whether they are LGBTQ or not. This is the planet of free will and we have all been given this gift. I will now pursue this goal to be happy and have fun, and for everyone to believe what they want and follow in your hearts without fear.”

      “It takes courage to grow and glow in the light that you are and to be true, genuine, and authentic. We grow and learn to shine our light with Love and compliments,” he concluded.

       

      Reply
    157. 157.

      wjca

      August 25, 2023 at 3:49 pm

      @Jay: So, what is your alternative explanation?

      Reply
    158. 158.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 3:49 pm

      @wjca:

      Yes, I actually am.

      I know that it is a rather unhealthy mental condition, not just a symptom of a disease and that there is most always an outside angle of some kind to it.

      I was a mental health counselor for 4 yrs. Thankfully I never saw a case. Unfortunately it is often very well established before or if any one can get help. And it isn’t a mental health issue it is a description of the results of a bad situation.

      Reply
    159. 159.

      WaterGirl

      August 25, 2023 at 3:50 pm

      @Old School: @Jeffro:

      I watched it, and I think I spoke too soon.  Why would I want to promote a rant by a pro-Trump person?

      I think I must be missing something.  What am I missing?

      Reply
    160. 160.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 3:51 pm

      @Old School: I mean…I’m glad to see this. Hopefully some folks around him were like “Carlos my dude, let’s discuss” and maybe he learned and wants to be better. I hope so.

      Besides, whenever people go off about “men are men and women are women and it’s all based on genitals and blah blah” I’m like, ok but did you know intersex people exist?

      Reply
    161. 161.

      eversor

      August 25, 2023 at 3:51 pm

      @The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:

      Christianity does though put men in complete control over everything.   So if we don’t have iron clad patriarchy we aren’t being Christian.   If that results in disaster it’s up to everyone else to suck it up, and if they don’t they aren’t being Christian either.

      Women having any say in anything is not Christian on any level.  Same for kids.  And that’s why if Christian men say no abortion, anyone who doesn’t go along with it is not a Christian at all.

      Reply
    162. 162.

      Tony G

      August 25, 2023 at 3:51 pm

      @Alison Rose: That’s right.

      Reply
    163. 163.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 3:51 pm

      @WaterGirl: It’s satire :)

      Reply
    164. 164.

      Another Scott

      August 25, 2023 at 3:53 pm

      @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Kinda sorta.

      Repost – Jill Lepore at the New Yorker (behind a paywall now – us a private window):

      In the late nineteen-seventies, the Republican strategists Richard Viguerie and Paul Weyrich, both of whom were Catholic, recruited Jerry Falwell into a coalition designed to bring together economic and social conservatives around a “pro-family” agenda, one that targeted gay rights, sexual freedom, women’s liberation, the E.R.A., child care, and sex education. Weyrich said that abortion ought to be “the keystone of their organizing strategy, since this was the issue that could divide the Democratic Party.” Falwell founded the Moral Majority in 1979; Paul Brown, the founder of the American Life League, scoffed in 1982, “Jerry Falwell couldn’t spell ‘abortion’ five years ago.”

      The “abortion debate” has (since the 1970s) always been about dividing people from the Democratic party. Before then, it was the Physicians Crusade to keep America white.

      It’s always been political – always.

      Grr…,
      Scott.

      Reply
    165. 165.

      Redshift

      August 25, 2023 at 3:54 pm

      @The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:

      The modern cult of the fetus is born of highly selective dogma driven by the urge to accumulate political power.

      I respectfully disagree. It used to be, but if it was still about accumulating political power, they wouldn’t be riding this electoral loser all the way down. The fundamental drive is that sluts must be punished for having sex with a pregnancy, and women must be made submissive to men by any means necessary.

      The religious justifications and the “science” and emotional baybeez! appeals are nonsense and contradictory because they’re just marketing, and have nothing to do with the real goal.

      Reply
    166. 166.

      wjca

      August 25, 2023 at 3:54 pm

      @Alison Rose: Always sad to see someone willing to normalize serial killers, isn’t it?  But then, they are pretty relaxed about mass shootings is schools, so perhaps not surprising.

      Reply
    167. 167.

      WaterGirl

      August 25, 2023 at 3:54 pm

      @Old School: That horse isn’t going back in the barn.

      That toothpaste isn’t going back in the tube.

      No take-backs.

      Reply
    168. 168.

      WaterGirl

      August 25, 2023 at 3:55 pm

      @Alison Rose: It’s not good enough satire.  I found the whole thing entirely unpleasant.

      Sorry!

      Reply
    169. 169.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 3:56 pm

      @Alison Rose:

      It’s satire :) – very good satire.

      If you didn’t know who he is and his history you could take it the wrong way, it’s that good.

      Reply
    170. 170.

      Jeffro

      August 25, 2023 at 3:56 pm

      @Alison Rose: yeah, I was gonna say… =)

      There are some subtle hints in there, but it can be tough to pick up!

      Reply
    171. 171.

      Tony G

      August 25, 2023 at 3:58 pm

      @smith: That’s right.  And I’m really not sure how far back that ideology goes with the Catholic Church.  I was “raised” as a Catholic as a kid, but walked away from all religion when I was 17 years old in 1973 — coincidentally a few months after Roe versus Wade.  I do not remember a single sermon about abortion or contraception during my church-going years — mostly just anodyne stuff (which I largely agreed with) about helping the poor.  I’m pretty sure that, even for Catholics, the anti-abortion dogma was a right-wind political ideology rather than a matter of “theology”.  (And, of course, most Catholics then and now were cafeteria-Catholics who just did whatever they could get away with.)

      Reply
    172. 172.

      Omnes Omnibus

      August 25, 2023 at 3:58 pm

      @Alison Rose: Some people (especially but not exclusively older people) don’t look at issues and then react badly to things that a “different.”  Some of them come around when they have had a chance to think about it or, as you said, talked to someone.  Good for him for thinking/listening and then offering what looks like a real apology.

      Reply
    173. 173.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 4:02 pm

      @WaterGirl: Nah, I can see how it wouldn’t be everyone’s thing. I find him mostly funny but sometimes I do think he goes a bit too over the top with it and then it gets a little obnoxious.

      Reply
    174. 174.

      Quinerly

      August 25, 2023 at 4:02 pm

      @Cowgirl in the Sandi:

      In town check out Cowgirl BarBQ. Great food, music. Del Charro at the Inn of the Governors is a favorite, too. Reasonably priced. Locals, even though a hotel. The bar at Bishops Lodge and the outside patio are wonderful. Pricey.  Tiny’s is old school. Has music.

      I love the Ranch House on the Southside. Sweet bar, nice HH. Great food. Rustica is nearby…Italian. same owners. Fantastic waitstaff.

      And, of course, Harry’s Roadhouse on Old Vegas Highway. An institution. On my very first trip out here I sat two seats away from Jessica Lange there.

      Off the beaten path out on Highway 14 (Turquoise Trail) towards Cerrillos and Madrid, NM are 2 wonderful places. San Marcos Feed Store and Cafe. No alcohol. Great roast beef burrito (Their green chile is really hot. I love it) Beer Creek Brewery is on 14 too, nearby. Nice patio, cool bars inside. Wonderful pizza and beer.

      Feel free to get my email. I can send you more suggestions. Have fun!

      Edited to add…Blackbird Saloon in the tiny village of Cerrillos. Highway 14 (Turquoise Trail)….and the trading post in town owned by my friend Andy’s family…trading post was just featured prominently in AMC’s “Dark Winds.”

      Reply
    175. 175.

      zhena gogolia

      August 25, 2023 at 4:02 pm

      @WaterGirl: He’s such a good comedian he fooled you! I love him.

      Reply
    176. 176.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 4:03 pm

      @wjca:

      a grab bag of codependency , traditionalism, low self esteem, misogyny, religion, real or implied violence, control issues, etc.

      My Mom stuck with my Dad way longer than she should have. Only when she began to fear for her life, did she leave.

      My Fundi Brother controls his wife, ( who is a far better person than he is) with the help of his Church and her love for her children.

      Reply
    177. 177.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 4:03 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: Very true. I guess I wish folks would just not feel the need to blather in public, but I suppose someone in his position is used to being able to do so! But it’s definitely nice that he didn’t double down and genuinely seems to want to be a good person.

      Reply
    178. 178.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 4:04 pm

      @WaterGirl:

      Humans are often complicated.

      Humans often take things out of the actual context.

      Some humans really are just pieces of shit on 2 legs.

      I give them a chance to stand up and admit mistakes and atone.

      But only if they actually, seriously, absolutely atone.

      The world can be misleading, humans can be easily misled, confused, bullshitted, accepting, wrong, full of crap and on occasion actually correct. But learning is part of being human. Very often the absolutely most necessary part of it because often humans get things absolutely, totally wrong, we all do it. Some do this rarely, some occasionally, some do it so often that they would have to be 300 yrs old to have the time to come around to reality.

      Reply
    179. 179.

      Geminid

      August 25, 2023 at 4:04 pm

      @Redshift: Republicans would not bring their proposed 15 week “compromise” to the House floor for a vote. Leaders complained that Senate Democrats would block it, but that did not stop them with other stupid bills, like the 5 repealing gun safety laws.

      So why didn’t they? One reason might be potential blowback from voters who thought 15 weeks was much too liberal a limit. But they also might not have had 50 votes out of their 52 Delegates. I think the main reason was that they hope to keep the issue of abortion rights in the background, like Youngkin managed to do in 2021.

      Reply
    180. 180.

      H.E.Wolf

      August 25, 2023 at 4:04 pm

      @Karen: ​
       Thanks! Testing the link again here. It works for me in Firefox, but the .shtml is a very odd suffix for a URL….

      https://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/anti-tales.shtml

      Reply
    181. 181.

      Redshift

      August 25, 2023 at 4:04 pm

      @Alison Rose: Exactly. Science writer Ethan Siegel wrote a great essay about everything science has to say about “what is a woman?, including that.

      My friend Sarah was born intersex. Her brain decided she felt female, so she identifies that way. Is it really so hard to believe that could also happen with someone who is “biologically” male?

      Reply
    182. 182.

      Central Planning

      August 25, 2023 at 4:07 pm

      Just got a text survey from some conservative group.
      The last question: “Optional: Is there anythign else you would like to share with Conservative Leadership?” My response was “You are all insane and have lost touch with the American people. I hope you all lose”
      Then they wouldn’t take my survey because I won’t donate any money to them. Fucking grifters.

      Reply
    183. 183.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 4:07 pm

      @Tony G:

      we call them “Cradle to Grave” Catholics up here. They get christened, and get a funeral. In between, maybe Easter and Christmas.

      Reply
    184. 184.

      Omnes Omnibus

      August 25, 2023 at 4:07 pm

      @Alison Rose: Look at it this way.  If he hadn’t put his foot in it, he might not have learned.

      Reply
    185. 185.

      H.E.Wolf

      August 25, 2023 at 4:09 pm

      @Karen: ​
       I re-entered the link in Comment 180, and it seems to be working (for me anyway).

      Reply
    186. 186.

      zhena gogolia

      August 25, 2023 at 4:10 pm

      @WaterGirl: Oh, watch it again and listen to how he captions each mug shot. It’s hilarious!

      Reply
    187. 187.

      smith

      August 25, 2023 at 4:10 pm

      @Jay: a grab bag of codependency , traditionalism, low self esteem, misogyny, religion, real or implied violence, control issues, etc.

      Yes, you have to remember that women are brought up in the same cultural context that men are. It is not surprising that some fully internalize the same misogynistic messages and can’t imagine defying them.

      Reply
    188. 188.

      Gretchen

      August 25, 2023 at 4:11 pm

      These zealots also forget how miserable even a wanted pregnancy can be. My daughter just entered the dreaded 3 months of throwing up phase. I think all these guys need to experience three months of hyperemesis before opining.

      Reply
    189. 189.

      scribbler

      August 25, 2023 at 4:13 pm

      @WaterGirl: FWIW I agree with you.

      Reply
    190. 190.

      smith

      August 25, 2023 at 4:14 pm

      @Another Scott: The “abortion debate” has (since the 1970s) always been about dividing people from the Democratic party.

      And this all went hand-in-glove with the Southern Strategy adopted a short time before.

      Reply
    191. 191.

      Bill Arnold

      August 25, 2023 at 4:16 pm

      @H.E.Wolf:

      Another pro-choice voice, from 1982: Ursula K. Le Guin.

      Good piece. Such a great writer.
      I have a paperback copy of her “The Left Hand Of Darkness”. Inside the cover, somebody, I know not who (perhaps one surnamed Daemon), wrote “Mr. Arnold – this is a very intense book” (from memory, might be paraphrased).

      Reply
    192. 192.

      Scout211

      August 25, 2023 at 4:17 pm

      @Central Planning: Then they wouldn’t take my survey because I won’t donate any money to them

      Because these surveys via text message are actually “surveys” that go nowhere and are only used as a hook for donations.  We get them from Democrats, too. I don’t like that type of deceptive fundraising so we block the number immediately, even if it’s a Democrat.

      Reply
    193. 193.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 4:20 pm

      @H.E.Wolf:

      That is an amazing site.

      It is amazing to me that this is such a hated procedure which a lot of women get because they can’t, don’t want a child, either because they still are one or because they can’t afford one or actually any reason. This is their body, their life, and considering a lot of men, quite possibly some men’s total concept of responsibility and they are not capable or skilled or old enough to actually live with that responsibility. Medicine has the ability to fix something that happens a lot more than many think because often humans do one act that hopefully feels good and hopefully is good and either they didn’t think about the timing or the possibility or the consequences, because humans.

      Reply
    194. 194.

      Jim, Foolish Literalist

      August 25, 2023 at 4:21 pm

      In other news, Biden’s politicized DoJ is going after another Republican. Hey, wait a minute….

      Vivian Salama @vmsalama
      The Justice Department is weighing possible charges against Sen. Bob Menendez after a yearslong public-corruption probe, according to people familiar with the matter.

      not gonna get my hopes up, but I’d love to see Menendez replaced by another Democrat.

      Reply
    195. 195.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 4:23 pm

      @Omnes Omnibus: This is true!

      Reply
    196. 196.

      Jim, Foolish Literalist

      August 25, 2023 at 4:24 pm

      in still other news…

      Akayla Gardner @gardnerakayla
      Asked by me whether he’s seen Donald Trump’s mugshot, @JoeBiden says he saw it on television. “Handsome guy,” he adds with a chuckle.

      Reply
    197. 197.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 4:24 pm

      @Scout211:

      I took a survey, turns out it was from the CPC, now I am on their email list, (bty my response to the question “should Poilievre be the next Canadian Prime Minister?” was no, he should fuck off and die!)

      I just delete the emails. Sure it’s a waste of a few of their electrons and printed media, but that’s something.

      Reply
    198. 198.

      UncleEbeneezer

      August 25, 2023 at 4:24 pm

      But I’ve been assured by Elie Mystal, Nicole Wallace, Andrew Weissman etc., that “we’d have known about” DOJ activity if they were actually doing anything…

      NEW: DoJ has been investigating the intimidation of Ruby Freeman for the better part of this year. We didn’t know until yesterday. Bet against the DoJ at your own peril.

      Reply
    199. 199.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 4:25 pm

      @Ruckus:

      Some humans really are just pieces of shit on 2 legs.

      Baud’s gonna steal this from you for a campaign slogan.

      Reply
    200. 200.

      Kristine

      August 25, 2023 at 4:29 pm

      @H.E.Wolf: Were you using Safari–it likes to add weird %20% notations to the ends of some web addys and then I get error messages when I try to load said pages. I deleted the mess after .shtml and was able to load the page.

      Reply
    201. 201.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 4:29 pm

      @Ruckus:

      during my separation, before the divorce was final,  (before which, the Ex wanted a divorce, then wanted a baby, then wanted a divorce again,  round an round, during which I discovered that “our” Marriage Counselor was also her Therapist, yada, yada, yada), I got piercings, a tattoo, and a vasectomy.

      Reply
    202. 202.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 4:29 pm

       

      double post

      Reply
    203. 203.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 4:33 pm

      @Gretchen:

      I’m going through a possible cure for a disease that causes me to throw up, along with another rather unpleasant symptom, although I’ve been having the unpleasant symptom for over 10 yrs. It is obviously a progressive disease as the attacks are getting closer together. My doc is on top of this now because the original symptoms are alike for 3 separate diseases, other than number of times and progression and this is a somewhat rare issue. It’s not horrible it just sucks. A lot. And the fix is likely a lot less invasive than giving birth is I imagine, because it’s impossible for me to experience it. And I think that is a part of the problem, men can never have this experience and women can do many things to prevent getting pregnant but only one is 100% preventative. Don’t have sex. What’s the fun in that?

      Reply
    204. 204.

      UncleEbeneezer

      August 25, 2023 at 4:33 pm

      @Alison Rose: Also, kids don’t “know” their gender identity until 2-3. And I’ve read of people whose kids say they realized they were Transgender around 4 (maybe even earlier).  In other words, Trans people can realize their gender identity, just as early as Cisgender people realize theirs.

      Reply
    205. 205.

      MomSense

      August 25, 2023 at 4:36 pm

      @Jay:

      Finances keeps women in terrible marriages.

      Reply
    206. 206.

      UncleEbeneezer

      August 25, 2023 at 4:36 pm

      A little late for Pride but check out this rainbow waterfall at Yosemite!

      Reply
    207. 207.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 4:37 pm

      @Ruckus:

      Don’t have sex. What’s the fun in that?

      Lot’s of things these days count as sex, and are satisfying and fun, other than ,……. you know.

      Reply
    208. 208.

      sab

      August 25, 2023 at 4:38 pm

      Stole a cat from the neighbor who let her run around at 5 am when the coyotes were abroad.

      Still, cat stealing. Outdoor cats have 2 to 5 year life expectancy. Indoor cats 12-20.

      Of course my indoor cats are bored. All they can do is stalk the other 4 indoor cats. And the pitmix, who is actually afraid of these tiny animals with slashing claws.

      That outdoor kitten was not going to make it outside. Everyone was her friend. Big birds in the sky. Passing off leash German Shepherds on a rampage. That dog eats whole woodchucks. How would he think a stray cat is different.

      Reply
    209. 209.

      Manyakitty

      August 25, 2023 at 4:38 pm

      @Ruckus: exactly. If we don’t allow for personal growth, what’s the point?

      Reply
    210. 210.

      SWMBO

      August 25, 2023 at 4:39 pm

      @Betty Cracker: Please check your email.

      Reply
    211. 211.

      Manyakitty

      August 25, 2023 at 4:41 pm

      @Redshift: love Ethan Siegel. I read his column every weekday.

      Reply
    212. 212.

      Jim, Foolish Literalist

      August 25, 2023 at 4:44 pm

      Tamar Hallerman @TamarHallerman 35m
      Just in: Sidney Powell, an attorney briefly affiliated with the Trump campaign, files a speedy trial demand in Fulton County

      my non-lawyer’s brain keeps uselessly spinning trying to game this out

      Reply
    213. 213.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 4:46 pm

      @MomSense:

      sometimes. While my Fundi bro has tons of stocks and big bank, under BC Law, half of that is hers. They are multi millionaires in assets, paper and actual bank.

      And she is “The” TMJ Therapy Specialist in BC with a practice worth several million.

      But yeah.

      When my Mom left, she came to live with me through the whole process of separation and divorce. I had a crap job, but a small apartment off the Drive, and could cook. So a year and a half of that, until she got the house, monthly support and half his pensions. (the Pensions were worth $120k a year, fully indexed with benefits).

      She wanted to pay me back for her stay, but there was no way I was going to take it.

      Reply
    214. 214.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 4:48 pm

      @sab:

      Good on ya, now you have a Cat Lady starter kit.

      Reply
    215. 215.

      Matt McIrvin

      August 25, 2023 at 4:49 pm

      @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Biden is some kind of expert at the indirect and subvocal throwing of shade.

      Reply
    216. 216.

      lee

      August 25, 2023 at 4:51 pm

      I know some Zygote Zealots. Anything short of an complete national ban will never be enough. That’s why when the GOP (with fear in their eyes) start walking back anything other than that it is complete bullshit. If they get a 15 week ban, then it will be 6 weeks then a complete ban.

      Reply
    217. 217.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 4:55 pm

      @Alison Rose:

      That’s OK, everyone knows this even if they will never admit it.

      Some people just really are. We’d like to think we belong to a group of animals that doesn’t see life this way because it is a reflection on many people. But that is part of humanity. Hitler was a human being. A very, very shitty one. The list is long though, of shitty humans. It may or may not be longer than the list of decent humans, maybe it’s 50-50ish. One can hope.

      Reply
    218. 218.

      Kristine

      August 25, 2023 at 4:55 pm

      @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

      my non-lawyer’s brain keeps uselessly spinning trying to game this out

      Maybe they’re just trying everything they can to reduce their legal bills? 🤷‍♀️

      Reply
    219. 219.

      Ksmiami

      August 25, 2023 at 4:56 pm

      @lee: and then birth control, financial independence, voting rights etc. The GOP is a criminal terrorist organization.

      Reply
    220. 220.

      H.E.Wolf

      August 25, 2023 at 5:01 pm

      @sab: Stole a cat from the neighbor who let her run around at 5 am when the coyotes were abroad.

       My extreeeeemely law-abiding sibling once climbed a neighbor’s fence and stole rescued a kitten who was being left outside in blazing heat with no water.

      In both cases, the kitten was probably the better for being abducted. :)

      Reply
    221. 221.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 5:06 pm

      @Kristine:

      their Lawyer(s) have probably gamed out that being tried separately, and frist, might reduce the “weight” of the full conspiracy, as only “their” part will be tried and proven.

      Reply
    222. 222.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 5:06 pm

      @Redshift:

      I believe that when we see what our genitals are and find out that there are 2 different types, we start to develop the concept of gender. And young is that age. But there is far more to it than genitals. Especially in humanity, as we have developed the concept that the 2 genders are different and absolute. And that is bullshit of the highest order. I know, one of my siblings was gay. And still had a child with her husband. Of course that was before she came to grips with her truth. (I wouldn’t write this but I’m the youngest and last living member of the family) So I’ve known a lot of people on both sides of this issue. I was friends with her first same gender partner for over 4 times longer than she was, over 40 yrs. I’ve met and known a lot of gay people on both sides of gay over the last 50+ yrs and it has never seemed to me to be a choice, other than one they had to accept and did and were glad of that decision.

      Reply
    223. 223.

      prostratedragon

      August 25, 2023 at 5:10 pm

      Stormy Daniels, uh, weighs in.

      Reply
    224. 224.

      Kristine

      August 25, 2023 at 5:11 pm

      @Jay:

      their Lawyer(s) have probably gamed out that being tried separately, and frist, might reduce the “weight” of the full conspiracy, as only “their” part will be tried and proven.

      I am so not a lawyer, but if each piece is tried and proven, by the end don’t they fit together to form the full conspiracy that will weigh on those tried last? Or can you not take the weight of that information/confirmation into account when trying subsequent individuals?

      Wasn’t there also the comment that folks who applied to be tried separately may be more likely to flip?

      Reply
    225. 225.

      Betty

      August 25, 2023 at 5:12 pm

      @Scout211: That these exceptions had to be spelled out proves that the so-called general exception to protect the health of the mother was illusory.

      Reply
    226. 226.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 5:15 pm

      @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

      I believe they want to be separated from the pack so they won’t be considered as part of a conspiracy, which is exactly what this was. Being part of a conspiracy may give them a bigger/longer sentence and basically ruin their lives. Too Bad, So Sad.

      Shoulda taken their heads outa their asses before it was too late.

      What a fucking shame. Not.

      Reply
    227. 227.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 5:16 pm

      Cry-Baby Chloe 🦋
      @ChloeNumberIII
      20h
      “The Kubrick Stare” is one of director Stanley Kubrick’s most recognizable directorial techniques. A method of shot composition where a character stares at the camera with a forward tilt, to convey to the audience that they are at the peak of their derangement

      https://nitter.net/ChloeNumberIII/status/1694876009399451755#m

      Reply
    228. 228.

      Alison Rose

      August 25, 2023 at 5:19 pm

      @prostratedragon: God, she cracks me up. Some troll replied “At least 20 pounds of you is jizz” and she said “On a good day 😜”

      Reply
    229. 229.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 5:20 pm

      @prostratedragon:

      Yes she did.

      The lesson learned by some – Don’t fuck with Stormy unless she agrees. Not in any way, shape or form.

      Reply
    230. 230.

      Jim, Foolish Literalist

      August 25, 2023 at 5:21 pm

      Acyn@Acyn
      Watters: I say this with an unblemished record of heterosexuality. He looks good and he looks hard.

      IIRC Watters got his start on O’Reilly’s show, harassing people in public with a microphone and a camera. He tried it on Olbermann who just grinned and repeated “Andrea Makris” over and over, the woman O’Reilly and Fox had to pay an undisclosed and presumably very large some of money to over the loofah tapes.

      Reply
    231. 231.

      cain

      August 25, 2023 at 5:23 pm

      @sab: Doing God’s work.

      Reply
    232. 232.

      sab

      August 25, 2023 at 5:23 pm

      @Jay: I really like the owners, but they are hippy nuts. No amount of lectures about the real world for outside cats would phase them.

      The actual cat in question strolled in through an open door, and has no intention of ever going outside again.  There be dragons out there.

      Reply
    233. 233.

      Kay

      August 25, 2023 at 5:23 pm

      BREAKING: The NLRB has ruled that if bosses commit unfair labor practices in the run-up to a union election then the election will be canceled and the Board will order the employer to immediately recognize and bargain with the union. Union-busting just got a lot harder.
      Aug 25, 2023 · 2:46 PM UTC

       

      Reply
    234. 234.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 5:25 pm

      @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

      Some folks are slow learners.

      Some are so slow learners that they never actually accomplish the task. Either that or their brain has one key on their keyboard that sticks up a bit higher and they just kept hitting that one first. IOW they are one note useless fucks.

      Reply
    235. 235.

      cain

      August 25, 2023 at 5:28 pm

      @Jim, Foolish Literalist: these people just twist themselves and dishonor themselves for that clown. I mean, JFC – fetishing a 77 year old man.

      Reply
    236. 236.

      Tony Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 5:29 pm

      @Jay:

        Lot’s of things these days count as sex, and are satisfying and fun, other than ,……. you know.

      Checks list.

      Licks pencil.

      1) Nope

      2) Nope.

      3) Maybe. I like jelly.

      4) Nope.

      5) Uh (turns list upside down, squints, gasps) Nope!

      6) Nope.

      7) I tried that and got a paper-cut.

      8) Depends on which end of the telescope is the warmest.

      I’m going to have to suggest you get off my lawn now. It’s time for Matlock.

      Reply
    237. 237.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 5:31 pm

      @Kristine:

      but if each piece is tried and proven, by the end don’t they fit together to form the full conspiracy that will weigh on those tried last? Or can you not take the weight of that information/confirmation into account when trying subsequent individuals?

      I am guessing that they are going for the “Corner Boy Defense”.

      “Yes, My Client sold drugs for the Cartel on the corner and used the money to buy guns for the Cartel, but my Client knows nothing about birthing no babies all those murders or the structure of the Cartel”.

      Reply
    238. 238.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 5:36 pm

      @Tony Jay:

      Check out Porn Hub. All sorts of stuff there if you can get it in Lesser England.

      Btw, you are doing the jelly thing all wrong.

      Is pencil a euphemism?

      Is it too early for Balloon Juice After Dark?

      Or is it just Dark where you are?

      Reply
    239. 239.

      smith

      August 25, 2023 at 5:40 pm

      @Jay: Willis said on the day she announced the indictments that she was ready to go to trial immediately. She was certainly well-acquainted with the GA speedy trial law, and knew there was a possibility that a defendant might go that route. I’m guessing she had her strategy for that gamed out before bringing the indictments.

      I’m just wondering how quickly Chesebro’s and Powell’s lawyers can get up to speed. They have only about 8 weeks.

      Reply
    240. 240.

      Subsole

      August 25, 2023 at 5:46 pm

       

       

      @jimmiraybob: Yep.

      The tell is divorce laws. Look for these fuckers to start working on that next. Removing any protections for women with abusive husbands, making it harder for women to divorce, making it easier for men to stiff their ex wives…

      Reply
    241. 241.

      Tony Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 5:50 pm

      @Jay:

      Is it available in illustrated manuscript form? I’m giving retro a whirl.

      Is that why it gets behind the headboard?

      No, it’s Hard Black with a blunted tip. Oh, wait. Yes. It is.

      It’s never too early for a bit of BJ:AD

      This is England, it’s always twilight here.

      Reply
    242. 242.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 5:50 pm

      @smith:

      They likely already have a lot of what they think they need done.

      Which in my mind could be a rather silly mistake. They may be  separated from any main group by asking to go separate but I doubt the way the case is built and that they really have no way to all be tried in one trial won’t have gotten them to the same exact position at the end of the day. I think they want to go early because that might get them a lessor sentence or that their trial and sentencing might happen before any of the others end, thereby possibly allowing them to be treated differently. I don’t see this working with this prosecutor.

      Reply
    243. 243.

      smith

      August 25, 2023 at 5:50 pm

      @Subsole: They are definitely wanting to abolish no-fault divorce.

      Reply
    244. 244.

      Subsole

      August 25, 2023 at 5:51 pm

       

       

      @Old School: God dammit. At this rate Dee Snyder’s gonna break my fucking heart, too…

      Reply
    245. 245.

      Jay

      August 25, 2023 at 5:55 pm

      @Subsole:

      too late. Already did.

      Reply
    246. 246.

      Subsole

      August 25, 2023 at 6:05 pm

      @ian:

      Also recall that since AT LEAST Limbaugh, the core assumption of Conservatism, and I mean the bedrock substrate to all of their…let’s call it thought…is that everyone is secretly dogshit. And they are better than you because they’re openly, proudly dogshit. Unlike filthy, two-faced, lying you, who tries to be something more than dogshit.

      They genuinely believe that they are the only people brave enough to be sour, miserable, selfish assholes. I am not making this up; they think that our kindness is an act, that we don’t mean it, and that we would all be as cruel as they if we had the choice.

      So when Lady Reality stomps their dusty, rotten, perpetually-cobwebbed-over crotches with the 10″ Stillettos of How-Things-Actually-Work-Around-Here-You-Arrogant-Stuckfain, they just brush it off as lies. Because they know you’re dogshit, just like them, see?

      Conservatism is, at heart, a failure to believe that anyone would ever voluntarily be different from you.

      (While also, somehow, simultaneously believing anyone different from you is deliberately doing it to fuck with you…)

      Annnnnd it looks like I went all ranty-ravey on them. Must mean I’m a secret conservative. 😉

      Reply
    247. 247.

      Subsole

      August 25, 2023 at 6:09 pm

      @UncleEbeneezer:

      Of course. All those pixels spilled, all those thoughtful sobstack thinkpieces and well-heeled pundits like Chait and Yggy just asking questions.

      And it ends up with the Too Independent For Partisanship crew waking up to find their mouths absolutely vacuum-sealed to a right-winger’s aasshole. Again.

      Reply
    248. 248.

      Subsole

      August 25, 2023 at 6:09 pm

      @Jay:

      Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

      Ah well. Fuck him, too.

      Reply
    249. 249.

      Ruckus

      August 25, 2023 at 6:23 pm

      @Subsole:

      No, you are just describing actual conservatives. Their point of view is the ONE, the ONLY and is TRUE. Just ask them. They make no leeway for anyone but themselves, because they are always corr – fucking wrong. The world does not work in only one way, some are tall, some short, some are pale, some are not, some have external genitalia, some have internal, some have possibly incorrect – at least they see gender as not what it appears to an outsider. Etc, etc, etc. The world is a lot more than one or the other as humanity has shown time and time and time…..again

      I’d really like to know how that changes anything for any one person. You are who and what you are. Not necessarily what you are born with.

      Reply
    250. 250.

      Karen

      August 25, 2023 at 6:24 pm

      @H.E.Wolf: ​
        Thank you so much, the article was very enlightening.

      Reply
    251. 251.

      Steve in the ATL

      August 25, 2023 at 6:39 pm

      @Kay: wow—that is huge!

      Reply
    252. 252.

      Anotherlurker

      August 25, 2023 at 7:06 pm

      @Old School: i have on good authority from friends in the music business,  that Santana is a well known asshole .

      Reply
    253. 253.

      artem1s

      August 25, 2023 at 8:04 pm

      @Percysowner: ​ 

      Ohio Republicans Use Last-Ditch Gambit To Infuse Ballot Proposal With Anti-Abortion Language .

      The plan is to force the pro-choice side to withdraw it’s support of the ballot measure. Or at least throw doubt into what a yes or no vote means. The lawsuit only puts it in front of a hostile state supreme court. This was always the plan – confuse the message so the normies never trust the feminazis again. also if it passes with the watered down language, there is no chance in hell of reversing it. Every two years we’re going to have multiple competing measures on the ballot that no one understands. It’s a shit show all around. I thought I hated Ken Blackwell but LaRose is a whole other level of evil.

      Reply
    254. 254.

      Another Scott

      August 25, 2023 at 10:43 pm

      @H.E.Wolf: Thanks for the pointer.

      And that men don’t have to make this decision, only women do.

      Yup.

      Thanks again.

      Cheers,
      Scott.

      Reply
    255. 255.

      anitamargarita

      August 25, 2023 at 11:47 pm

      @H.E.Wolf: a friend of mine “stole” a parrot she had been asked to take care of for a couple of weeks.the “owner” was cruel to the bird. When he came back for the bird, my friend told him that the bird escaped and flew away. That bird lived the good life for 20 years.

      Reply
    256. 256.

      LiminalOwl

      August 26, 2023 at 8:24 am

      @wjca: IAN Jay (but he said what I wanted to). As usual, I’m late to the comments, but the more accurate current term is trauma bonding.

      Reply

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