All the arguments I have seen for being tried alone in GA in the past week seem pretty lame to me.
No matter what they are technically arguing – whether it’s a speedy trial or severance – t all seems to come down to the same thing:
If I’m on trial with the other members of the RICO conspiracy, it’s going to look like I was part of the conspiracy that I’m being charged with. I am totally innocent, and I would be convicted for sure if that happened.
Wednesday live hearing could determine how quickly Fulton County election subversion case moves (CNN)
Fulton County Superior Court Judge Scott McAfee, who is presiding over the Georgia election subversion case against former President Donald Trump and 18 other co-defendants, will hold his first hearing Wednesday afternoon amid questions of how soon a trial could begin.
In a break with the hearings in federal court and the New York charges against Trump, Wednesday’s 1 p.m. ET hearing will be broadcast.
The hearing could provide key insight into how much evidence Fulton County prosecutors have in their case against Trump and his allies who are accused of interfering in Georgia’s 2020 election results to try to flip the state away from Joe Biden.
McAfee, in a court filing, said he is interested in having Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis’s prosecutors provide a “good-faith estimate” for how long it would take to hold a joint trial for all 19 defendants, and how long it would take if the case is divided into subgroups of defendants. Specifically, he wants to know how many witnesses and exhibits prosecutors may produce.
As part of the hearing, McAfee will consider motions from pro-Trump lawyer Kenneth Chesebro and former Trump campaign lawyer Sidney Powell to separate or “sever” their cases from the other co-defendants, in hopes of getting a faster trial.
Both Powell and Chesebro invoked their right to a speedy trial, and if granted, this would break apart the case and allow their cases to go to trial as soon as October, per Georgia law. Trial dates for the other defendants could be scheduled for a later date.
All 19 defendants charged in the sprawling Fulton County racketeering case – including Powell and Chesebro – have pleaded not guilty and waived their right to an in-person arraignment.
Last week, Chesebro’s legal team filed a separate motion asking the Fulton County judge not to force him go to trial alongside his co-defendant Powell. In the filing, Chesebro’s attorneys said he never had “any direct contact or communication” with Powell and isn’t accused of participating in the same schemes as Powell.
Former President Donald Trump speaks during a rally, July 7, 2023, in Council Bluffs, Iowa.
Special counsel accuses Trump of daily statements that could prejudice jury pool in election subversion case
Chesebro’s trial is currently scheduled to begin October 23. Willis has said she wants to keep the case together and hold one massive trial for all the defendants beginning in October.Trump and many of his co-defendants oppose that speedy timeline and have filed motions to be separated from the case to delay the start of their trials beyond October.
This is pretty good background on the speedy trial vs. severance motions, from Harry Litman.
Let’s hope that Judge McAfee can see through the whining and the bullshit.
Open thread.
Mousebumples
Wait, I’m behind. Is today arraignment day or severance discussion day? I thought the latter hearing happened last week, and the judge said to show up for arraignment if there wasn’t a decision by then? Or am I mixing up defendants? (there’s a lot of them…)
🤯
WaterGirl
@Mousebumples: Today was arraignment day, but all 19 defendants (with the final 2 stragglers acting yesterday) have waived their right to be at the arraignment.
This is something separate.
I forget that not everyone follows this as closely as I do. I just added a link to a CNN article up top. Hopefully that will help answer your question.
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: There are so many bits and pieces to this whole clusterfuck!
Villago Delenda Est
They are all guilty, guilty, guilty. Disbar the law talking people and lock the lot up.
WaterGirl
Personally, I think it will be a travesty of justice if Judge McAfee lets anyone sever (have a separate trial) from the others charged in the RICO case.
It’s a fucking RICO case, the whole point it to paint the big picture and try them together.
It makes me a little nervous that he is such a new judge AND he was appointed by Republican governor Kemp, and he will be up for election in November. (Appointed judges in GA have to be elected after they are appointed.)
edit: Anyone who is reassured because it’s Kemp, remember that he is the one who kept his thumb on the scales when Stacey Abrams ran against him the first time – he was Secretary of State and oversaw his own fucking election – and he has been behind thousands and thousands of people being thrown off the voter rolls in GA.
Brit in Chicago
@Villago Delenda Est: Too soon for that. To misquote the Lord High Executioner: first the trial, then the execution.
Villago Delenda Est
@Brit in Chicago: I’m thinking of Cardassian justice here: they’re guilty, but we need the show trial first.
WaterGirl
Boy, sometimes I totally misjudge what BJ peeps will and won’t be interested in!
Alison Rose
@WaterGirl: Yeah, he may not be the worst of the worst, but that doesn’t mean he’s good.
Villago Delenda Est
Seriously, though, I think McAfee will go for the Solomonic solution: we’ll try you all together (prepare for logistical nightmare) sooner rather than later. You know, ahead of TFG’s trial in DC, the day before Super Tuesday. We could have avoided most of this shit if Mitch McConnell were not a partisan shitstain back in 2021.
WaterGirl
“All Rise.” It’s starting.
Ken
@WaterGirl: That’s probably a sign of good mental health.
Ken
Cut each of the defendants in half, the left half to be tried in October and the right half in March?
WaterGirl
Wow. Attorney for Cheese-bro:
I want to break down the conspiracy into 3-5 separate parts – and my guy was only involved in the alternate electors parts. So he shouldn’t be tried along with the others.
Oh. My. God.
How can that possibly be a valid legal argument. In a conspiracy, as I understand it, in for a penny, in for a pound. Am I wrong?
Villago Delenda Est
@Ken: Well, it’s a compromise, isn’t it?
Mousebumples
Thanks! Too much going on in my world right now to be as up to date. Largely good things, just a lot.
Villago Delenda Est
@WaterGirl: “My client is just a little bit guilty, your Honor.”
smith
@WaterGirl: On the other hand, before he was a judge he was a prosecutor, and if I’m remembering right, he worked in the Fulton County DA’s office under Willis. At the least, he will be able to see the potential problems from a prosecutor’s view point.
Old School
OT for an Open Thread:
The new Rolling Stones song is out.
Yes, it is 2023. I double-checked.
Ken
@Villago Delenda Est: “He was part of the bank robbery, but feels he should only be tried for driving the getaway car, not shooting the teller.”
MisterDancer
Should a lawyer be admitting he “doesn’t know the 12th Amendment” in this way? That he needs time to understand how it applies here it, maybe? But the way he said it was just…it set me off, as a layperson. Or maybe I misunderstand/misheard.
JPL
Does Miss Powell have a case? Apparently not.
Suzanne
I’m in hysterics.
Conservatives Explain Why Women Should Have More Babies
Alison Rose
@Ken: “Your Honor, it is indeed true that my client purchased the shovels and drove everyone to the cemetery, but he only held the flashlight and watched while the others dug up the coffin. Furthermore, my client got far below market value by pawning the jewelry because he is terrible at haggling. Thus, not only he is barely a graverobber, he’s also an incompetent one. Clearly, these charges should be dismissed.”
Betty
It’s a conspiracy!
Alison Rose
@Suzanne:
Sarah Huckabee Sanders wrote that one.
jonas
Isn’t the translation there more like:
Maybe you can still defend yourself that way in a massive group trial, but it sure does make showing up to court and sitting next to those people all day a little awkward.
Almost Retired
My favorite (stupid) argument of the defense is that the overwhelming purpose of the alleged conspiracy was the “desire to elect Donald Trump as President,” which – he argues ridiculously – could involve millions of people. No, you fuckwit, the purpose is to criminally overturn a lawful election. Please bite me, counsel.
jonas
“Your honor, the overwhelming purpose of the alleged robbery was the desire to have more money. Are we really going to criminalize wanting nice things now?”
ETA: when you’re defending morons and halfwits who are clearly guilty, your legal arguments are going to be, by necessity, also pretty dumb. Not that they don’t get a fair trial, but the arguments are going to be extremely stretched and stupid. Kind of like Enrique Tarrio’s lawyer claiming that if he was guilty of anything, it was that he loved America “too much.”
MisterDancer
Ah, someone brought a Powerpoint and has basically slowed the proceedings to a crawl, trying to get it up for the court.
UGH.
bbleh
“Yerrr honerrrr, this is gonna be reeeely loooong, and they’re gonna be talking about other people and other stuff, and somebody might get confused, and my client’s gonna get boooored. Can’t we just do ours all special and quick and stuff? Pleeeease?
“Your honor our PowerPoint will now demolish their complaints and bulldoze them under six feet of precedent.”
Suzanne
@MisterDancer: Anyone who attempts to use PowerPoint should be found in contempt. FUCK U POWERPOINT.
Roger Moore
@Suzanne:
“It’s a bandaid solution while we soften public opinion on sterilizing minorities.”
–Sen Tom Cotton (R-AR)
Westyny
@MisterDancer: Colin, the energy vampire strikes again!
wjca
On the other hand, this isn’t about Kemp’s voter suppression efforts. This is about Trump disparaging the process, and trying to overturn the results, of an election that Kemp personally insists was free and fair. Even if you beg leave to doubt the “free and fair” part, that doesn’t change the fact that this particular trial has Kemp directly opposed to Trump.
Bruce K in ATH-GR
@Westyny: Could be worse. They could be dealing with Ellis Billington’s TLA Systems from Charlie Stross’s The Jennifer Morgue. PowerPoint-induced zombie outbreaks, anyone?
bbleh
@Suzanne: the major drawback of PP — in any forum — imo is that it almost inevitably ends up with the PP driving the presentation and the human merely reading slides. It takes a really good presenter to keep the attention on him/herself and keep the PP as an assistant.
Baud
@Villago Delenda Est:
I thought you were going to say he would literally sever them like the baby.
Anonymous At Work
@WaterGirl: What’s teh scope of McAfee’s November election? Fulton County or all of Georgia? If the former, boy, does he have to show he’s fair and he’s no longer beholden to placating either Kemp or GA Lege.
As far as timing goes, you can elect for a speedy trial or you can waive it. It’s the defendant’s prerogative to invoke or waive. Those who want a fast trial will/should be tried together, those who do not, get tried together at a later time. So, Meadows, Cheesy-bro, and Kraken Karen could be tried together (boy, talk about negative credibility issues) and get their prison sentences before TFG’s trial begins.
bbleh
@Baud: I would be ok with that. In the interests of justice and all.
narya
@WaterGirl: Based on listening to Popehat’s podcast, that is apparently something that can be/is done in big sprawling things like this: the judge can break it up into smaller groups for parts of the charges. In that case, I think that only the people charged for all of it would be grouped together. But there’s really no telling how this is going to go. I have tons of respect for Fani Willis, but I also think this is a long shot prosecution; I think the best we can hope for is that SOME trial gets started and lots of evidence becomes public.
M31
wasn’t there some past GOP sleazebag moralist claiming that as a reason for his numerous affairs? can’t remember which one it was, some pasty unattractive middle-aged white guy, that should narrow it down
wjca
At which point TIFG’s lawyers start whining that the earlier convictions prejudice his right to a fair trial, because the establish that the basic conspiracy did, in fact, exist. And more delays ensue while the courts rule against that.
Gin & Tonic
@Suzanne: The ultimate takedown of PowerPoint. Yes, I am Old, why do you ask?
Villago Delenda Est
@M31: I can think of one individual who fits that to a tee, but then again, your point about narrowing it down is perfectly valid.
piratedan
@narya: I could see something along the lines of the grander scheme involving those higher ups involved in the fake-electors slate and then grouping the specific actors involved in the harassment of the local election workers and those associated in the Coffee County elections acts separate. Naturally, IANAL.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic: That’s funny.
WaterGirl
@jonas:
Guffaw. I scared the kitties.
Suzanne
@bbleh: There’s a guideline that a PowerPoint slide should never have more than seven words on it. But then I see people make these slide decks that are really their outline/talking points, because they just want to distribute the slide deck later…. which makes me wonder why they bother presenting at all.
Villago Delenda Est
Well, McAfee has told Chesebro to pound sand. So sad. Anyway…
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: Considering Norvig created this well over 20 years ago, also prescient.
Roger Moore
@Gin & Tonic:
I would also highly recommend Edward Tufte’s The Cognitive Style of PowerPoint, which is a much more thorough takedown. Tufte is well known as a data visualization guru, which gives him the gravitas to take PowerPoint on. His larger point isn’t just that it’s ugly and slow, but that it encourages slopping thinking.
WaterGirl
@wjca: I was speaking specifically in response to the implied “well Kemp did the right thing with the attempt to overthrow the election so maybe this judge who was appointed by Kemp can be trusted” argument.
Making sure that just because he did the right think in not overthrowing the election, people shouldn’t forget that he disenfranchised thousands and thousands of people, and he unethically oversaw his own election.
My point stands.
Westyny
@M31: why, Newt, of course.
FastEdD
One of the defense attorneys said, “The prosecution wants to make this trial about Donald Trump” and “Half of America voted for Donald Trump.” No, no they didn’t, that is why he lost by 7 million votes. That is why we have a trial about overturning the election. Another defense attorney was discussing case law by arguing that one case “trumps” the other. Using the word trump several times in its other meaning. Just a coincidence I am sure.
WaterGirl
@Anonymous At Work: I *think I read that it’s Fulton County. But I am not 100% certain.
zhena gogolia
@Suzanne: Oh my God, the presentations I’ve had to sit through. If only they’d just send the slide deck and let me read it for myself and save an hour on Zoom.
geg6
@bbleh:
I don’t understand the animosity to PowerPoint. I use it extensively and can’t see how I’d do my job properly without it. I’ve never read from a slide, however. Why yes, since you asked, I got an A+ in public speaking in college.
I use the presentation software to highlight important points and to print out the presentation so the attendees have the slides and can make notes.
I think if you are doing anything else with PP, that is what gives it such a bad rep.
Suzanne
@zhena gogolia: I hate that. Like, there is a notes field in PowerPoint! ALL THOSE WORDS BELONG THERE. As notes!
Doc Sardonic
@zhena gogolia: Bad enough that it is a Zoom, but add on the excruciating torture of a Power Point is just an uncalled extra layer of torment that makes Satan slowly shake his head and say ‘Damn, wish I’d thought of that’
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Old School: Whar Charlie? 🙁
cursorial
@Westyny: That’s right, I knew that sounded familiar. Apropos of the day, another Georgia sewer dweller, just explaining his affair with a staffer…
‘There’s no question at times of my life, partially driven by how passionately I felt about this country, that I worked far too hard and things happened in my life that were not appropriate,’ Gingrich told The Christian Broadcasting Network.
bbleh
@Suzanne: There’s kind of a ritualistic element to it imo.
I reserve the wordy stuff for notes, which can appear in small type at the bottom of copies that are distributed or (less conveniently) in a separate notes screen or section. But those presentations are a harder to prepare: you can’t just bullet-ize your talking points in one go and be done. And even then, it’s hard to keep generations of screen-users and TV-watchers looking at you instead of at a screen.
@geg6: I agree, and in addition to the above points made by various people, I tend to use very few slides, and only where there’s a need for, or special value to, a visual display, eg graphics or intro and final summary slides “tell ’em what you’re gonna tell ’em, tell ’em, and then tell ’em what you told ’em.” But I think most users aren’t economical that way. I always have a sinking feeling when somebody walks into a meeting with a deck of 30 slides.
CaseyL
McAfee just denied Chesebro’s request to sever his trial from that of Powell.
Suzanne
@geg6: PowerPoint makes me crazy because:
1) If you want to create an outline-style document to provide information, breaking it up into separate slides isn’t great. It’s like trying to read a novel but every paragraph is on a separate page.
2) People usually load up the slides with (text) content to the point that nothing has emphasis any longer. It just becomes reading. But shitty reading, because you’re in a conference room or lecture hall, not in a library.
3) It enables crappy graphics. Clip art and gradients and other template stuff, rather than making a graphic or photo that actually conveys information and meaning.
Old School
@Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:
Unavailable. But he is on two tracks on the new album.
Steve Jordan plays on this and the other songs.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@CaseyL: LOL. Being linked to Powell has to make Cheesy crazy.
narya
@Gin & Tonic: I have pointed people to this countless times.
bbleh
@CaseyL: and correct me if I’m wrong, but he has NOT yet ruled on any of the other aspects of severance, ie he hasn’t yet opined on whether all the defendants will be tried together, only that those two will have their speedy trial (together).
Suzanne
@bbleh:
This is the rub, right? Like PowerPoint is popular because it does two functions — creating the images that are displayed while you’re talking, but also a leave-behind with the content for notation and later reference. But, like a spork, it does both of those things half-ass-ful. A good leave-behind would be formatted differently than a bunch of slides, and a good slide deck would be visually engaging at large scale because you wouldn’t be worried about capturing the content of everything you said.
Mousebumples
Unpopular opinion – PowerPoint is essential for my work/clinical presentations. But we’re focusing more on data tables and explaining clinical trial results vs talking about an exciting new commercial launch, etc.
Though I admit I do write some of these slides aimed at multi tasking coworkers who may not be listening super closely.
CaseyL
@bbleh: I think you’re correct: he hasn’t yet ruled on that.
marklar
When talking about regions of the brain, neurotransmitter systems, geographical locations, and presenting data (graphically…not in tables), Powerpoints are quite useful and can provide important context/information. I try to create slides that only have pictures/illustrations…although at times some text is necessary.
Like any other tool, the ‘goodness’ or ‘badness’ is in how you use it
ETA: I see Mousebumples made a similar comment a couple spots above.
catclub
@Suzanne: My experience (thankfully over) with PP in science is powerpoint is for presenting graphics, and you talk about the key points of the graphic. Anything not discussed is fuzzed out.
the problem is having 1 complicated visual slide per minute… or less.
bbleh
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Tune in next month for the first episode of The Kraken And The Cheese, the uproarious new comedy about a slightly loopy older attorney and her smarmy younger colleague who hates his name, who spend a year in all sorts of wacky hijinks from one end of the country to the other
Or, okay, Cheese and Kraken. Or …
frosty
@Suzanne: When I did presentations for proposals and conferences PowerPoint was expected. Yeah, I used it for the outline and talking points but it was mostly so I could remember what I wanted to say without 3×5 cards. Tried to put a relevant image or graphic on each one too. And tried REALLY HARD not to read the slide. Got pretty good at it over the years.
One other thing, when using the company template, I always covered up the company logo that would show up on every damn slide.
Suzanne
@catclub: IMO, PowerPoints should only be graphic.
I like nice printed material, thoughtfully formatted, at presentations.
hilts
Lock Kenneth Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger, Cheeseburger Up!
h/t SNL
Suzanne
@frosty: My PowerPoint rules are:
1) Seven words per slide maximum
2) One graphic per slide, unless you’re specifically comparing/contrasting.
3) One slide per minute minimum.
4) Two fonts maximum per presentation.
5) No clip art or out-of-the-box stuff.
6) No reverse text, unless it’s a specific banner. No colored backgrounds, unless very pale.
7) Graphics to be flat colors as much as possible. Minimize “Photoshop vomit” like drop shadows and halftones.
smith
@bbleh: Predicted to be the comedy hit of the Fall season.
lowtechcyclist
@Suzanne:
Well, there’s the problem right there.
Back in the Before Times, when I was meeting with people in the same room, I almost never did PowerPoint; I could give them a document with paragraphs, and some important points bolded where appropriate. I could talk about it, tell the listeners where I was, and they could follow along.
But it’s never going to be like that again, even if I weren’t retiring before the end of the year. People in a given meeting are literally all over the country now. Yes, I can send them the detailed document, but doing screen sharing with something like that just doesn’t work. PowerPoint does.
wjca
No question he’s a scum bag. But in this one case (perhaps for the first time ever) I’m thinking he’s on the side of the angels.
Some quote about “Even a blind pig gets an acorn now and then”
wjca
I would go with
Beyond that, it’s useless. But readers can absorb that much in many cases.
Oh yes, and NO blocks of text. (Which the word limit would probably cover, but just in case.)
TerryC
@bbleh: In the association I used to work for one annual presenter, Ira Fink, often had more than 300 slides for a 50-minute presentation. His presentations were very popular!
Suzanne
@wjca: See, that’s when I start to get stabby. When I’m looking at PowerPoint, I’m not a reader. I’m a viewer. If I need to read, I want something tangible. If I’m reading, I don’t need to be synchronously watching a presentation, it’s a waste of my time. If I’m watching a presentation, I don’t want to be reading. And if I’m reading, I’d rather not read a stack of slides, I’d rather read something in a book or pamphlet format.
Suzanne
@lowtechcyclist: Yeah, it’s this distinctly terrible part of work culture in which we feel the need to “present” information that doesn’t really merit presentation. It’s a grown-up professional version of a book report. I get why people use PowerPoint — again, it’s a spork, a cheap/fast way to both give a non-embarrassing presentation and to provide a handout. It’s just so often bad at both things. The presentations are duller than they should be, and the handouts are less informative than they could be.
Gin & Tonic
@Roger Moore: Right, should have added that. I’ve attended Tufte’s seminar and have his books, but (according to Norvig) some of his ideas were inspired by Norvig.
Quaker in a Basement
Hmm. I wonder if Willis could pull this off: Separate Trump’s trial from the pack. Give everyone else the choice to be tried with Trump or with the rest of the group. I’m guessing nearly all of them would run from Tubby like he was a skunk at a picnic. Try the group first and let them provide all the on-the-record evidence possible.
Probably something wrong with this plan, but that’s how I’d write the fictional version of it.
Another Scott
@Suzanne: +1
But it really depends on the audience and the purpose of the meeting.
Krugman has shown his slides occasionally on his various sites. One “graph” (with no numbers or axis units or tickmarks or labels) per slide and he’ll talk about how the lines cross or whatever. Maybe that works in economics, but in physics or engineering the pitchforks would come out. ;-)
Sometimes lots of words (more than 7) are needed. Sometimes just a graph can tell the story. It really depends.
But, as Tufte says, PowerPoint is just a horrible tool for trying to convey actual information. (Also too, I spend about 80% of my time with PowerPoint fighting with the formatting – even when working from a template. “Oh, that color isn’t the same as the template. Grr…” It’s just horrible software – especially if you’re using it on PCs and Macs…) Lots of people make the point that a presentation isn’t and cannot be the same as a journal article – and that’s true. I try to treat a presentation as a teaser to get people to want to read my papers, to discuss the main themes and big ideas, but it has to have enough information so that they know where to look (e.g. citations, and/or how to contact me) if they want to know more. Otherwise, I think it’s frustrating (like old media and FTFNYT refusing to provide pointers to the sources they used, the links to actual court decisions, etc., etc.).
An internal presentation of progress on some issue can be/is very different from an external presentation to a funding agency (which may have a template and list of required items to cover). It really, really depends.
The constant, though, is that PowerPoint is horrible software.
FWIW.
Cheers,
Scott.
Suzanne
@Another Scott:
But then again, this is where I come back to environment. Lots of words are needed often! Then, I will posit, a slide deck isn’t the best way to provide your information. We just do it this way so frequently because it’s cheap and easy and common. To the point where we can’t imagine any other way. And it makes us these passive consumers of information who usually don’t even consider if there’s something better.
I just sat through a boring-ass PowerPoint presentation. Lots of lists. With bullet points. I feel dumber than when I started. I could have read all the content in about 8 minutes.