This is a lose- lose political gambit and I can’t help saying something on the inherent idiocy of the strategy
Goodbye mentions but as a long time political operative can I point out the scenarios? https://t.co/OY04xCbZv6
— Democrat, Environmentalist, & the establishment (@BlueSteelDC) October 31, 2023
Scenario 1: President Biden loses as they wanted
They now aided the win of the political forces who has open contempt for even their existence in this country and they not likely to benefit. Hell there was direct threat to harm as a campaign promise pic.twitter.com/XncSwOLQTj
— Democrat, Environmentalist, & the establishment (@BlueSteelDC) October 31, 2023
How I would have done it –
have open and regular communications with senior officials at the White House that President Biden has two communities that need an open demonstration of support
— Democrat, Environmentalist, & the establishment (@BlueSteelDC) October 31, 2023
I am not trying to undercut the serious nature of the concerns
But currently the political voice just sounds petulant and stupid and that’s over shadowing the gravitas of these conversations
— Democrat, Environmentalist, & the establishment (@BlueSteelDC) October 31, 2023
I will always be with you- as your community was with mine.
I wish this would be a moment we can all stand together but for now – not so much
To another point – its very unlikely something happens to your community and we’re not next
— Democrat, Environmentalist, & the establishment (@BlueSteelDC) October 31, 2023
Great thread. Unfortunately a lot of people we’re seeing here on Twitter saying they will never vote for Biden said that in 2020. Arab-American & Muslim “leaders” on Twitter are more Repub or much more anti-Dem party “leftist” than most of the communities they claim to represent https://t.co/DDyQ9JZOCM
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) October 31, 2023
War for Ukraine Day 620: The Cost
206inKY
The Gaza war is vastly more important to our world, but I suspect an undercurrent in the Times poll is raw anger from student loan borrowers. All Biden had to do was preserve the pause and let a future president eat the shit sandwich of restarting payments. Instead, this month, millions of borrowers have started paying essentially a second rent payment after three years of $0 that was still counting toward the forgiveness clock. They’re salty about it, and the dumbest conclude that Trump paused their loans and Biden restarted them. There’s no way this wasn’t going to take a bite out of support from college educated young people.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Yes, don’t vote for the guy who isn’t out to get you because he didn’t do one thing you wanted. Purity politics, gimme or else! It’s like they think that TFG is so bad that Biden will give them what they want just to avoid the horrors that they would be subjected to if the asshole wins. I also can’t help but think that what is going on in Israel has been fed by Russia and their allies as a diversion to pull resources away from Ukraine.
Russian rodent copulation with a reach around from those looking to harm Democratic voting chances. I hear word that Rashida Tlaib approves of this and if that is true, she is truly stupid.
Ithink
This was amazing to see, read and hear but I just pray to God all other extenuating circumstances considered, that the Biden/Harris rockets prevails again, if not overwhelmingly, a year or so from today. I don’t think there are enough disgruntled purity ponies to cause an Electoral College electroshock as was the case when we had all the Hilary Haters in 2016 but still, Trump getting re-elected this time will be many manifest magnitudes worse than his previous attempts. All three of the righteous Twitter handles above won the Internet for the day!
Splitting Image
“I care about this issue so much that if I don’t get my way I’m going to vote for people who are promising to make a bad problem worse” is a really bad look for anyone regardless of which issue they claim is important.
Splitting Image
@Splitting Image:
Just to add, if they are arguing that when they do vote against their own interests, it will be your fault for making them do it… Kick the dirt off of your shoes. They are already Republican.
Gretchen
I think a lot of the Twitter warriors are being stirred up by Russian propaganda. Russia has been stirring up conflict in the Middle East to take eyes off their activities in Ukraine and nothing suits them better than evangelicals wanting to take money from Ukraine to send to Israel.
Martin
Don’t worry about people venting their frustrations. This is why early polls are garbage because the longer the distance in time between a stated intention and when that action would take place, the less realistic they are. And when emotions are flaring, people say these things because it helps them with the emotions. Most parents have had their kid say they hated them.
Mike Tyson had a good saying about political polling: “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth”. Elections are real. Polls are not. When things get real, the mind tends to focus.
Not to mention, every time something like this happens, Democrats freak the fuck out, Biden spends a month calmly coming through with something that gets the community back, and everything gets back to where it should be. Relax.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@206inKY:
From what I have read the poll is garbage. Oversampled R’s and expecting 22% of black people to vote for TFG. Sure…
Polls this far out are pretty much worthless and only serve the pollsters and the outlets that pay them.
eclare
@Martin:
I agree with everything you wrote. Joe won in 2020, how is TFG having 91 criminal indictments going to persuade 2020 Joe voters to vote for TFG?
Polls are garbage at this point, except as clickbait.
Darkrose
That’s one of the stupidest fucking things I’ve ever heard. I am pissed as hell about having student loan forgiveness yanked away. Those payments are eating a significant chunk of my income. But I know whose fault it is: the fucking Republicans in Congress and in the states who couldn’t stand the idea of people who aren’t rich getting a break, and the corrupt AF SCOTUS. Anyone who blames Biden for that is an idiot.
Balconesfault
@eclare: if one believes in “influencers” … there’s a real danger that some people who are probably awash in some right wing dark money may bump the black vote numbers for Trump to a dangerous degree.
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-black-rappers-hip-hop-artists-2024-election-republicans-1840801
Balconesfault
Yes, Biden signed off on student loan repayments renewing in order to prevent a Government shutdown.
I guess 206 thinks the Republicans would have sent him a clean funding bill had he refused to sign the one Congress sent him?
Sheesh.
https://www.nasfaa.org/news-item/30845/President_Biden_Signs_Debt_Ceiling_Legislation_into_Law_Prevents_Default_and_Codifies_Impending_End_of_the_Student_Loan_Payment_Pause
eclare
@Balconesfault:
You know a few years ago Newsweek took a hard right turn under new ownership? Also that list of rappers is pretty B-list, if that. When Cardi B, Kendrick Lamar, and Jay Z decide to support TFG, then I’ll start to worry.
Nukular Biskits
I have no particularly keen insight into the war in Gaza but the last thing I saw is that there are over 9,000 Palestinian casualties … with no end in sight.
Israel has every right to exist and defend itself, but what appears to be happening right now is far more than a justified response on the part of the Israeli government, something more akin to genocide. The IDF is giving lip service to “concern” about “collateral damage”, IMHO.
Were this nearly any other country, the US would be helping the international community build a case for war crimes.
I have no answers but if the Israeli government continues on this track, piling up the bodies of innocent Palestinians, I fear the conflict will spread.
p.a.
Has this 206 been posting here long? Not familiar to me. We really are a top-10,000 liberal blog if trolls target us!
Of course Netanyahu has his own domestic reasons for acting as he is in Gaza, but if hurting Biden’s reelection chances is an unintended side-effect, he won’t lose any sleep over it.
Subsole
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
1. Rashida Tlaib is an utterly mendacious piece of shit. I can agree to disagree with the Squad. But her? She denies the genocidal intentions of Hamas while accusing the people attempting to prevent genocide of being genocidaires. Of all the Leftists out there, she is Tara Reade level dogshit.
2. If ANY community: ethnic, religious, age, gender or class-based sits this one out and puts the Bronzed Calf back in office, they will have helped close the book on 250 years of American democracy and subjected us all to a horrid 21st century fascism from which our eventual freedom and the survival of human civilization is not assured.
In which case: buddy, if you thought people weren’t helping you now…
Subsole
God, this stupid, lazy, pigshit-ignorant, utterly myopic fucking country is going to fuck it up royal again. I can feel it in my bones…
Ksmiami
Biden and Harris need to start campaigning and flood the zone like now
Subsole
@Splitting Image:
It really is just emotional abuse.
“You better do what I want or I’m going to hurt myself and everyone around me,” is just blackmail.
Yeah. I know. Cry for help. Sure.
We have been trying to help everyone for decades. We get absolutely nothing back except spit in our face.
N.B. I am speaking of no single community here. This attitude is rife in all sectors of America’s electorate.
satby
@206inKY: Student loans are still getting forgiven every day as the mess that was the public service loan forgiveness program is fixed. And the substitute program to the loan forgiveness one that SCOTUS crushed was well publicized and heavily enrolled. If someone is salty with Biden’s attempts to fix that mess they sat on their ass and didn’t pay attention to all the work to fix it.
Nukular Biskits
@Subsole:
I haven’t seen where Rep. Tlaib has explicitly denied the actions/goals of Hamas.
Having said that, methinks she should be as forceful in denouncing them as she is in correctly pointing out the disconnect between US rhetoric about concern for Palestinian civilians and the reality on the ground in Gaza and her criticism of Israeli gov’t policies towards Palestinians.
Subsole
@Balconesfault: In fairness, I don’t think 206 was saying that. I think they were pointing out certain folks in that demo were saying it.
satby
For those interested, Teri Kanefield wrote a five part series about the Misinformation-Outrage cycle we all find ourselves trapped in by both mainstream and social media. Link is to part one, and it’s well worth reading the entire series.
Princess
I’m not sure the squad is the squad any more. You rarely see them speaking as one of acting in concert any more though they do sometimes vote together, naturally.
i do think there is a tranche of Black men to whom Trump appeals. It may be that the criminal convictions won’t sway this group. And there’s definitely a group of them that dislikes and feels threatened by Harris. I don’t know if they overlap or how much but it’s not like we can afford to lose even a few percent in some places.
On the other hand, didn’t Cohn’s NYT polls predict a red wave back in 22? So, yeah.
Matt McIrvin
@Subsole:
What other lever have they got? This is how coalition politics works. If you’re not getting what you want on your issue, you withhold support or threaten to. Otherwise, your support gets taken for granted and you get nothing. To some extent it’s like Nixon’s madman theory–you have to be willing to play the greater madman who is OK with the world blowing up, then maybe the other party gets scared enough that you get some movement.
On this particular issue… yeah, lots of people on both sides of it care more about it than they do about their personal well-being. That’s how it’s been as long as I can remember.
Subsole
@satby:
Interesting first article. Will read the rest after work. Thanks.
Nukular Biskits
@satby:
Thanks for that link!
satby
@Subsole: Part three is where it really starts putting the media pieces together, and many of us can see where we get hooked by outrage fueled by pundits on our own side.
Edit: but really, read it in order, like all lawyers she builds her case in steps.
LiminalOwl
@Nukular Biskits:
I don’t have access to Xitter, but according to news reports
The slogan could be read that way, in some hypothetical vacuum; unfortunately, de facto it is used to call for genocide of Jews. So is Tlaib lying, or deluded? Probably both.
eclare
@Nukular Biskits:
Rep. Tlaib was the one who booed Hillary at a Sanders event in 2020. That is all I need to know about her.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/01/politics/rashida-tlaib-boos-clinton-sanders/index.html
Soprano2
@206inKY: Did these people think they were never going to have to make a payment again? The smart ones would have been saving as much as they could, knowing that eventually they would have to start paying back the money they borrowed.
Nukular Biskits
@LiminalOwl:
Until I hear Rep. Tlaib explicitly endorse Hamas and their platform, I’ll reserve judgment on her alleged support for the group.
My personal opinion is that she hasn’t done so because she refuses to play the rightwing’s stupid game; i.e., remember the demands from the right that President Obama had to use the phrase “radical Islamic terrorism” (or whatever the fuck it was) or it didn’t count?
Having said that, however, she would do herself a favor by publicly explicitly condemning Hamas.
satby
Both the Jewish and the Palestinian communities (which Tlaib belongs to) are wounded and outraged now, and rhetoric from the extremists of both is over the top. None of it is productive and most of it is designed to further inflame. As the Biden administration continues to push for humanitarian aid to Palestine while supporting Israel’s right to go after Hamas things will continue to evolve. Good time to ignore incendiary language from everyone, and support the humanitarian orgs working to help the Palestinians, like WCK, because of course they’re there.
Nukular Biskits
@eclare:
Okay.
But I fail to see how that’s relevant to the discussion of whether Rep. Tlaib somehow endorses (or not) Hamas.
Tony Jay
There’s a lot of anger out there at what’s happening to Palestinians, and a lot of anger at the prevailing narrative that what’s happening to them is just some kind of unstoppable natural disaster that can’t be prevented and that only ‘extremists’ want to apportion blame for. People will vent about that, it’s what people do. Another thing that people do when they’re the leaders – appointed, self-appointed, or whatever – of an angry community is make threats about withholding support for allied politicians in the hope and expectation that this will lead to changes in that politician’s language and/or policy. Squeaky wheel, horse trading, basic politics, call it what you like, it’s what I’d expect to see happening over this issue. It would be really fucking bizarre if it wasn’t.
Will there be ratfuckers and agents of bad chaos out there trying to hijack that anger? Of course there will be. Wouldn’t you expect that too? It’s not like there’s just two sides to any argument, and the argument over what the world’s various power centres and populations should say and do about the brutality being inflicted upon Palestinians won’t be any different. Will they succeed in exploiting the widening gap between what Biden is willing to support Israel doing and what Netanyahu thinks he can get away with to hammer a wedge between the Democratic Party and the Muslim vote? Maybe, on the fringes, amongst people who for one reason or another were never going to vote Democratic anyway, but otherwise I don’t see it happening. The Biden White House is full of smart people and able political operatives. They’ll do what’s necessary to mend these bridges, and in 2024 whatever faux-Christofascist apocalyprick the Republicans barf up will get zero traction on this issue.
That’s really the point here. Even as an outsider I’ve got faith that, medium to long term, the Biden White House has the chops to deal with and harness the righteous anger of the Muslim community. They’re professionals, and smart, and they’re quite capable of recognising and getting on the right side of a wedge-issue, quite unlike the humanoid abominations currently running the UK Government and official Opposition.
Over here it’s a race to the bottom to turn this into a culture war rallying cry by aligning the UK with the Israeli far-Right that the Tories are ‘winning’, mostly because the Nu-New Labour Regime – after making a strong start when its transparent plastic smegma receptacle of a ‘Leader’ jumped in front of the nearest microphone to vocally support Israel’s right to break international law – has run full tilt into the reality that the majority of Labour’s membership, a chunk of its Parliamentary representation and a very large number of its local councillors (especially councillors in strongly Muslim areas) refuse to keep their mouths shut and can’t be brought to heel by the usual bad faith accusations of anti-Semitism. They badly misjudged their instinctive jump to the Right on this issue and are now thrashing around trying to recalibrate their stance on when it’s okay to bomb civilians while The Figurehead keeps his head down and his handlers’ opinions to himself.
Shorter – The Biden Administration has the political savvy to respond productively to Muslim anger over what’s being done to the Palestinians, the UK’s politicians… not so much.
eclare
@Nukular Biskits:
She is careless with her speech to the detriment of party unity.
lowtechcyclist
@Matt McIrvin:
Maybe Biden should be putting more muscle behind it (e.g. no money for you, Israel, until you start taking seriously the safety of Palestinian noncombatants), but he has at least verbally expressed far more concern for the well-being of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank than any previous President, and for that matter more than any major politician that I can remember.
They need to support Biden and the Dems for having moved this far their way, or there’s no political reward for their having done so. Which in political terms means, why should the Dems bother to stick their neck out for the Palestinians next time?
To me, that’s the clear political calculus here, and the people claiming to represent the Arab-American community are flunking it.
satby
@Nukular Biskits: She’s not going to endorse Hamas. Palestinians know Hamas has worked with Netanyahu to keep her people trapped in Gaza and living in misery while using them as human shields, which is why so many civilians are being killed now. But when bombs kill innocents every day and there seems to be no safe place to escape the anguish is real. I hope the Biden team can get the Israelis to stop long enough to help aid get through; Bibi is unlikely to cooperate.
satby
That’s the thing about wise old Uncle Joe, he’ll do what’s right whether it’s popular in the short term or not. He’s pushing all the Mideast players to prevent others joining in a wider war and lobbying for a workable two-state solution which hasn’t seriously been on the table for years.
Butter Emails!
@LiminalOwl: That phrase has a pretty long history. At minimum a few thousand years as a biblical reference, so I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that everyone who uses it isn’t calling for a genocide of all the Jewish people living in Israel. There seems to be a pretty wide interpretation of the meaning from a single unified democracy all the way to a full genocide. The different groups tend to interpret it to fit their visions or for political reasons. I don’t think it’s an accident that many of Israel’s staunchest supporters have adopted Hamas’ definition despite Likud having actually used a similar phrase in the late seventies, e.g. “from the sea to the Jordan, Israeli sovereignty.”
p.a.
Something the Christofascist American right doesn’t want known in its genocidal attack against Palestinians (from Wikipedia):
In 2009, there were an estimated 50,000 Christians in the Palestinian territories, mostly in the West Bank, with about 3,000 in the Gaza Strip.[13] In 2022, about 1,100 Christians lived in the Gaza Strip – down from over 1300 in 2014.[14] About 80% of the Christian Palestinians live in an urban environment. In the West Bank, they are concentrated mostly in Jerusalem and its vicinity: Bethlehem, Beit Jala, Beit Sahour, Ramallah, Bir Zayt, Jifna, Ein Arik, Taybeh.[15]
Of the total Christian population of 185,000 in Israel, about 80% are designated as Arabs, many of whom self-identify as Palestinian.[16][13][17]
marklar
@Butter Emails!: “There seems to be a pretty wide interpretation of the meaning from a single unified democracy all the way to a full genocide.”
The first possible interpretation might have a wee bit more credibility if, perhaps, there was a history of democracy (which means more than one election, thus permitting the peaceful transfer of power) in occupied territories, and if the Hamas, the organization controlling Gaza, doesn’t have the abolition of Israel in its charter.
Suggestion to Palestinian activists trying to garner support– encourage the elimination of the use of that phrase. It makes you look like you do not want peace.
Kay
This is more concerning, politically, to me:
Most people think Biden has been too engaged. They really, really don’t want the US involved (on either side) and I don’t know what Biden does about that.
Kay
And people seem to see humanitarian aid differently than they do military aid – 75% support humanitarian aid, it ony drops to 50% when it’s military aid.
I’m not sure this reflects that they “favor” the Palestianian side – instead I think it reflects the fact they don’t want the US drawn into a ME war and they see humanitarian aid as neutral.
lowtechcyclist
@satby:
True, and I am filled with admiration at how Biden has handled pretty much everything as President. But Biden won’t be around forever, even if he wins a year from now.
And speaking again of political calculus, if he doesn’t win, the members of the Arab-American community might as well start figuring out where they can emigrate to. Which faces did you think the leopards had in mind, idiots??
Tony Jay
@marklar:
The ‘single unified democracy’ refers to a single state encompassing all of Israel, Gaza, and the illegally occupied territories of the Palestinians. It might be a pipe dream, but that’s what the phrase refers to, so I’m not really clear on what that reference to a ‘history of democracy’ outside of Israel being a prerequisite for its existence means other than it possibly being code for “those people can’t even do democracy”. I hope not, but that’s what it sounds like.
And I don’t think anyone using the phrase is going to drop it for optics. It’s not like the people who are currently insisting its code for genocide would give them any credit for it, or that they wouldn’t immediately move onto some other phrase or slogan and start the whole thing over again. You can’t appease extremists, they don’t respect it and it never works.
satby
I agree on all points. I think the impulse when you see the scale of destruction in Gaza is to want humanitarian aid to flood the place, and a safe place for the population to be moved to.
Kay
The age differences are interesting too- the group who most oppose military aid to Israel are 18 to 34. The group who most oppose military aid to Ukraine are ages 35 to 49. I think that’s where our political problem comes in – the people who oppose $ to Ukraine are 50/50 Trumpsters, while the people who oppose $ to Israel are 65/35 D voters.
vigilhorn
@Darkrose: Another example of how a college education ain’t what it used to be.
Brit in Chicago
@Splitting Image: Yes, but (given the groups we’re talking about here) it’s not so much people whom one would expect to be Biden supporters voting for TFIG that’s the worry, it’s more that a lot of them just won’t vote. “Things RE crappy in my life and the politicians never help me, so why bother?”
marklar
@Tony Jay: I’m sorry if I created the impression of suggestion that “those people can’t even do democracy”– I believe they can, if they are permitted.
All I can tell you is that as a Jew, I’ve been raised hearing that phrase as referring to the annihilation of Israel– whether or not that was the intended context (of which my biases make me skeptical) or not. As a person who wants a true and just 2-State solution (the approach that was forwarded for a couple of generations by progressive Palestinians), the phrase indicates a rejection of that approach. That is not going to be helpful.
Nukular Biskits
@satby:
Agreed
MomSense
@Martin:
Ha! I love that you quoted the Mike Tyson song. There are many days when I find myself humming I’m on the Zoloft…
Kay
The I/P conflict makes me feel hopeless and I have trouble understanding it because frankly I am just not that tribal a person – I don’t feel any pull from a piece of ground, anywhere, to me you just buy and sell it. I have never felt like I had some ancestral home, even when I travel to where “my people” are from (supposedly).
BUT I do think there has been a really nasty response from some of the Left that absolutely reads to me as “you got what you deserved” towards Jewish people in the US. I find it repulsive. They’re not doing Palestinians any favors – I would be drawn to the Palestinian side because they are the underdogs but this antisemitism just turns me right off.
Nukular Biskits
@eclare:
A fair point, perhaps.
But members of the Democratic Party don’t exactly have a monopoly on eloquence.
Brit in Chicago
@LiminalOwl: I first heard the phrase “from the river to the sea” from someone I knew, a long-time Israeli peace-activist (Jewish, of course). That was quite a while ago, and perhaps the phrase has been co-opted. But if one thinks that a two-state solution is no longer viable (a conclusion my friend had come to) then one state is presumably what you’re left with. (Three, anyone? Four?) It’s worth thinking about what might make a one-state solution viable. (One thing that occurs to me: strong civil rights embedded in an unbreakable constitution enforced by a Supreme Court which commanded respect and obedience. [Are you there, Bib?] That’s needed to guarantee the rights of whichever side has fewer voters—presumably Palestinians in the short-term, Jews in the long-term.)
Nukular Biskits
@satby:
And I just realized that I wasn’t very clear in that initial post.
RevRick
Wow! There’s a link in Dailykos Abbreviated Pundit Roundup to a Substack by Ian Dunt that gets to the heart of the matter. He cites the philosopher Isaiah Berlin about how conflicts of competing values are always part of life and indeed exist in all of us.
I would highly recommend you read the whole thing.
Kay
I say “where my people are from supposedly” because one of my grown children recently had a DNA analysis and everyone checks out from both sides (are from where they are supposed to be from) EXCEPT my paternal grandmother. I adored her and I think it is hysterical and completely in character that she seems to have basically invented her past and family origin. My father never approved of her and he used to say “she’s a goddamned gypsy” and, well, maybe she was.
NorthLeft
Sorry, but calling the withholding of votes from an ally a “strategy” is really a little too much for me. I would like to give them enough credit to believe that they are talking like this publicly and encouraging the White House privately to continue to press Israel and Egypt to allow aid , and Israel to minimize the impact of bombing attacks on civilians and infrastructure in Gaza.
But, the vehemence of the rhetoric leads me to believe that the public screeching is all they have.
Kay
Johnson really isn’t going to answer the question about a bank account and political media are really going to let him get away with it. Just bluntly ask him the question and insist he answer it! If he won’t, end the interview.
If he has a bank account as an LLC or a trust or a nonprofit org people should know that!
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: I remember a lot of “we/ you had it coming” after 9/11, and a few people arguing that our response to 9/11 itself proved that we had it coming. I think a good ethical rule, actually, is that a bad response to an unprovoked attack shouldn’t be used circularly to justify the attack, since that’s just an open door for everyone to attack everyone.
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
Ugh. It reads as so fire and brimstone to me. You are being PUNISHED. Do they know they sound like fundie preachers these supposed ultra modern Lefties?
I go out of my way not to follow this issue and have for 30 years. If I’m picking it up it’s pretty damn loud.
Tony Jay
@marklar:
Fair enough. But that’s the rub, isn’t it? Does one ‘side’ (and only one side, or more accurately a loud sliver of one faction of a side) have the licence to censor language by claiming that a phrase or slogan is code for something terrible when the people using the phrase say it’s not? Do people on the other ‘side’ get to tell Jewish people they can’t refer to Israel as ‘The Jewish State’ because – they could claim – it’s code for establishing an eliminationist ethnostate where Muslims and Christians are at best second class citizens and at worst a dangerous fifth column of traitors who must be purged?
They don’t, no. And they shouldn’t. I’d rather we instead take a step away from the positions pushed by the extremists and take people at their word instead. Judge people on what they say they want and how they say they want to go about it rather than looking for reasons to pre-emptively dismiss them as inhuman monsters. The 2 State solution to Israel/Palestine is dead for now, killed by the unrestricted spread of Settlements and the rise of Islamist militancy in the absence of a credible non-militant alternative. Acknowledging that and saying why not at least talk about a 1 State solution isn’t rejecting a progressive solution, it’s looking for one.
I say this as someone who spent the last few years here in the UK watching in horror and disgust as very unpleasant people from across the political spectrum came together to cynically redefine the meanings of words and phrases so that they could smear the entire British Left as anti-Semitic. Many of those people are now trying to reoccupy the very same rhetorical space where Israel/Palestine is concerned that a couple of years ago they were loudly decrying as anti-Jewish hate speech and proof of genocidal sympathies, and they’re currently finding that a difficult move to pull off because they handed the unrestricted right to define what is and is not acceptable language to use about Israel/Palestine to their then-allies on the pro-Israeli Right.
Shorter – I’m not willing to put people into boxes marked Do Not Feed These Animals on the say so of people I don’t think are credible.
Even shorter – Not saying you’re one of them.
satby
@Matt McIrvin: “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind” Mohandas Gandhi
Feathers
I think a lot of people in the DC bubble don’t understand how differently the kids who grew up during the post 9/11 Forever Wars feel about the world. There is just a huge desire for justice and a hatred of abuse. Having been previously mistreated is no excuse for treating someone else poorly. Translating this to the I/P conflict, they don’t see Israel as having moral standing. They’ve grown up learning about the US being founded on slavery and genocide. Now they are looking at how Isreal became a country and not liking what they see. I feel differently. Wars and the ends of wars are ugly, messy affairs.
As to voting, I think that too many kids grew up on “your vote counts” and took it a bit too seriously. No, your side winning doesn’t mean your every political dream comes true. Not in the US Constitutional system. Too many people interpret this lack of progress as Dem “corruption” and not Republicans blocking forward motion.
As for “but they were Republicans anyways.” What a load of garbage. The most dangerous thing anyone has ever thought is things can’t get any worse. Politics is as much about identity as rational decisions about policy positions. People don’t like feeling attacked and rejected. If you don’t see room to make a convincing case, 9 times out of 10 it’s better to let things drop. There’s a huge right wing operation which is looking to soothe a flatter the undecided. Don’t make their job easier.
Soprano2
This, 100%. I suspect it’s mostly people who are like the Bernie Bros who won’t give anyone credit unless they get 100% of what they want. They have to realize that Biden has gone about as far as he can with support for the Palestinian civilians in light of the brutal slaughter Hamas engaged in.
Frankensteinbeck
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
If the Times poll, if any poll has 22% of blacks voting Republican, it is worthless and reporting based on it is meaningless. Yeah, Trump scoops up a little more of the hard misogynist vote among minorities the same as with whites, but not that much.
Similarly, life has taught me that screaming online activists are not the people who move votes.
Geminid
Secretary of state Blinken met with Turkish FM Fidan in Ankara earlier today. The meeting lasted 2 1/2 hours. There was no press conference afterwards which is probably a good thing. The optics were positive with the two exchanging smiles and warm handshakes in front of the cameras before the meeting.
Secretary Blinken was in Israel Friday and Saturday he was in Amman, Jordan where he met with several Arab Foreign Ministers. Yesterday he met with Palestinian Authority President Abbas in Ramallah, and then he made a stop in Baghdad where he met Iraq’s Foreign Minister. Video from the airport in Baghdad showed Blinken and an aid wearing armored vests. Unlike the other visits this one was not announced in advance.
Soprano2
@Kay: For me it’s more like “what did they think would eventually happen?”. Bibi lost his gamble that he could play the sides against each other forever, and this is the result. When you trap people like that for decades, I think eventually something bad is going to be the result. It’s a horrible tragedy for everyone involved.
MisterDancer
I’d hate to be someone with family in the region, reading this and yesterday’s comment thread. I’m explicitly mindful of the person who basically said yesterday to just bomb the entire region, and I didn’t read a whiff of sarcasm in his lengthy comment.
I read that. I didn’t see any pushback. And I just walked away from BJ for the rest of the day.
I can’t imagine looking someone who lost their family in the Hamas attacks, or, say, Gaza over the last couple of weeks, in the face, and going on about how they have to keep voting Democratic.
As @Tony Jay and @Matt McIrvin: have already said, these are responses of people in our coalition. People we claim, on some level, as a Party to care about. And people whom, in some cases, have very few representatives in our government, much less our media.
Demands that people who’ve lost family in this conflict “act rational” are horrifying, to my ear. And echo of similar debates I’ve had here, with far more personal stakes for me.
I’m saying that, rather than the politically-minded posting we are wont to do here, it might be time to consider that some things transcend politics. That the pain and agony of the people in that region, and those connected to that region, need and deserve compassion in this moment. What good does all this castigating do right now? Who does it serve?
Geminid
@MisterDancer: There is a difference between treating people in minority groups as human beings and treating them as electoral counters, and they can tell.
satby
@MisterDancer: And that was the purpose of my comment at #23 above. Because everyone is susceptible to outrage and intemperate comments and understanding how that’s massaged by our current “news” sources is vital.
Gretchen
@Kay: that Johnson Interview yesterday was infuriating. She asked him if he had a bank account. He gave that smug smile and said I’m from simple people, my dad was a firefighter. Dude, every firefighter has a checking account to deposit their paycheck and pay their mortgage and electric bill. She should have pressed him on where his paycheck goes and how he pays his bills. I’m betting he has some too-cute-by-half nonprofit or foundation or something. He smugly looks like he doesn’t have to explain himself to the little people.
Jinchi
That entire tweet thread is highly offensive, trivializing an ongoing life-or-death tragedy as though people are arguing tax policy.
Muslim communities aren’t being petulant, they are in trauma.
marklar
@Tony Jay: I see where you are coming from, and frankly, the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are the equivalent of my interpretation of the “From the River to the Sea” chant.
My concern with the 1-state solution is that while it is aspirational to progressives, I am not sure how the regressives on each side will ever permit a secular state that provides protection for freedom of worship and identity to take root (both sides want a country with denominational dominance). Heck, it is hanging by a thread here in the United States (if it ever really was the case).
Jinchi
Johnson’s statement is utter nonsense. His salary as Speaker, alone, puts him in the 95th percentile for Louisiana, and his work as a lawyer before that likely puts him well into the 99th.
Subsole
@Nukular Biskits:
Hey. Dead thread. Heard it mentioned on NBC. Just wanted togive a source for the claim.
Tony Jay
@marklar:
Oh aye, there’s no easy way from here to there, and the extremists will try to torpedo it all the ay along, but that’s true of any solution, so….. fuck ’em. Talk solutions, don’t lock anyone out of the room unless they insist on screaming over everyone else and see what comes out it.
Better than bombing cities flat or shooting rockets, for everyone involved.
Jinchi
Honest question, is there any political actor, outside of the United States, that actually supports the two-state solution? Because the power players on the ground certainly don’t seem to.
marklar
@Jinchi: “Honest question, is there any political actor, outside of the United States, that actually supports the two-state solution? Because the power players on the ground certainly don’t seem to.”
Does Canada count? (I also think much of NATO)
I was intrigued by something I once read by violinist Yehudi Menuhin on a 1-state solution that also incorporated Jordan. That would truly be a 1-state solution mirroring the British Mandate of Palestine!
Rebel’s Dad
@Subsole: She has the political skills of a potato. After that stunt she pulled where she joined the audience in booing HRC, she’s been dead to me.
She’s a great example of why I ignore pols from safe districts and listen to ones with actual skin in the game like Spanberger and Fetterman.
Rebel’s Dad
@marklar: I remember once reading where some wag said, “The Palestinians already have a state- it’s called Jordan.”
He wasn’t wrong. The Hashemite clan is not native Jordanian or Palestinian.
Rebel’s Dad
@marklar: They’ve been advised by the same marketing geniuses who brought us Medicare for All, ACAB, and Defund the Police.
BethanyAnne
@satby: Gonna read that this afternoon. Thanks
Chris
@Feathers:
What seems to come out fairly consistently in polls of the under-30 (and even under-40) is a worldview that comes off as really, really, for lack of a better term, anti-neocon. They experienced the entire war on terror as a sick joke, and it’s left them pathologically distrustful of anything that smells of military intervention overseas. Even at secondhand. This is by no means always a good thing – it makes this cohort the most suspicious of military aid to Ukraine, for example. But it also manifests in being similarly suspicious of military aid to Israel, which we’re seeing right now.
Doesn’t really matter, since the older cohorts vote more and and are more fanatically committed to Israel than any other. But in a few decades it might. Though I’m skeptical there’ll be anything left to salvage by then.
Chris
@Rebel’s Dad:
Two of my closest friends hosted an exchange student from Amman last year – Jordanian by citizenship, Palestinian by ethnicity (which is most of Jordan). Apparently, the latest news from the region is that his relatives in the West Bank, after years of rejecting the idea, finally up and moved to Jordan and have begun the process of adopting Jordanian citizenship – which entails renouncing your right to go back to the West Bank and live there as a Palestinian. With this latest flare-up, the Israeli settlers have just gotten too dangerous to stay around.
I’m torn between being glad that his family’s finally in a place where they’ll be relatively safe, and enraged that it’s yet another case of the people who made them unsafe in the first place being rewarded for it.
Geminid
@Jinchi: I think Gulf Arab countries favor a two state solution. That wpuld include Bahrain and the UAE, whick recently normalised relations with Israel, and Saudi Arabia which seems intent on normalizing relations. Morocco, Jordan and Egypt also recognize Israel and call for a two-state resolution of this decades-long problem.
Also, EU nations both collectively and individually call for a two-state solution.
Personally, I believe one can be acheived but maybe not until towards the end of this decade. Neither side is ready yet. I don’t think a two state resolution can be imposed from the outside, just encouraged and incentivised.
206inKY
@Darkrose: I agree it’s an incredibly stupid line of reasoning for voting. But you’re talking about the $10,000 forgiveness plan, which was struck down, I’m talking about the pause that was in effect from March 2020 to October 2023. The pause had a much bigger impact on pocketbooks.
It’s an incredibly dumb reason to vote against Dems, and I really think the impact will fade. I’m only tossing out some context for why a specific group of young people is feeling a sudden financial pinch this month. The poll found “Zero respondents [under 30] in Arizona, Nevada and Wisconsin rated the economy as excellent.”
206inKY
@Balconesfault: Hold on, I didn’t say that I agree with borrowers blaming Biden. Actually the opposite: I’m incredibly pissed that they are being babies about it. In any case the bandaid has already been pulled off and there’s plenty of time for the sting to fade.
kindness
My biggest issue with Rashida Tlaib and other groups that are angry with President Biden’s administration because they aren’t getting something they want is that as a country we just went through this same exercise in 2016 with Hillary. Sitting out the election or spending the pre-election period shitting on the Democratic candidate (remember Rose Twitter?) happened just 7 years back and the ‘experiment’ ended in tragedy. 4 years of Trump has brought the US closer to the fascist paradise the Christian & White Power Nationalists strive for. Doing it again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.
206inKY
@Soprano2: Yes, that’s what many believed.
wjca
Certainly, it is bedrock grievance politics. Fortunately for them, it is merely trademarked and not patented.
bookworm1398
On the original tweet thread, option one is incomplete. It leaves out the part where the US stops sending aid to Israel because the US government has stopped functioning. Which we are getting a preview of right now.
H-Bob
@Rebel’s Dad: That’s like the Russians saying that Ukrainians already have a country, it’s Russia.
TheTruffle
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Didn’t Biden find a way to work around the court rulings re student loan forgiveness?