According to the WaPo live update feed, Trump’s testimony in the New York civil fraud trial is not going well!
Shortly into his courtroom testimony Monday morning, Donald Trump received his first set of warnings from a judge instructing him to answer questions directly and avoid meandering comments.
“Mr. Trump, [Attorney General Letitia James] is being very patient. I would like to move things along a little faster. Please just answer the questions, no speeches,” New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron said.
New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron pointedly urged Donald Trump’s lawyer to control his client, repeatedly asking the former president to stay on topic and avoid making long-winded political statements during his testimony.
Engoron instructed Trump’s lawyer, Chris Kise, to “have a talk” with Trump to make him comply with courtroom rules.
“Mr. Kise can you control your client?” Engoron said. “This is not a political rally. This is a courtroom.”
Here’s a gift link to the WaPo live feed if you’d like to follow along. Open thread!
Frankensteinbeck
Oh, it’s way worse than this. When Trump answers questions, it has been a string of “Yes, I did that, but my properties are worth whatever I say they are because I’m so great.” He is confessing to his crimes on the stand, again and again and again.
I have to assume he’ll do the same in his criminal trials.
Urza
@Frankensteinbeck: If he was capable of learning once he’s found guilty here he might shut up in the other trials. But thats not going to happen till he’s in jail.
WaterGirl
Thank you, Betty!
Mathguy
I wish we could give the judge a nice hickory stick so he could whip the orange shitstain as needed (which is often).
John S.
Let us savor:
glory b
Attorneys tell clients to keep their answers to yes or no when being questioned by the other side, so as not to supply them with the rope with which they can be hanged.
But I’m sure you guys know this.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
And Sister Machine Gun of Quiety Harmony said, as her eyes misted over, “Here you are, Mr. Trump! I know you need more rope. I’m here for you! I will get you all the rope you need!”
patrick II
Why doesn’t the Atty General have Trump’s tax returns to show what he claims the properties are worth there.?
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: “Digs through the family library, knowing there’s the table of hangman’s drop ratios somewhere.”
Dorothy A. Winsor
I’ve been at the library trying to write, and I came home to find this gold mine of Trump insanity in the courtroom. Woohoo!
I live in an over-55 building. I have neighbors in the same state that Trump is in today and I wouldn’t let them run a cake sale.
Spirula
Pretty difficult to get aholes like him to STFU when he has spent his entire life overtalking and BS-ing his way through everything.
WaterGirl
@patrick II: Did you intentionally change your nym?
Ohio Mom
As I understand it, Trump has been involved in a gazillion lawsuits. So he has to know how to behave inside a courtroom.
That he can’t manage his behavior says something about how his brain is functioning.
TeezySkeezy
@Dorothy A. Winsor: That’s not always an easy task for the cognitively unimpaired even.
glory b
@patrick II: I’m pretty sure they do. As I recall, she offerred them to the Democratic leadership n the House,someone declined the chance to review them, not sure what committee head that was.
narya
I’m not watching, because listening to his voice would send me over the edge, but it’s fascinating to follow along. I keep thinking of Terri Kanefield’s comment that he’s responding to the current legal messes as he used to respond in civil trials. I realize this is a civil trial, but it’s actually a TRIAL; bullshitting the judge isn’t going to be a good strategy here.
Tony G
@Mathguy: The judge should beat Trump with that hickory stick while playing a recording of “Hit Me with Your Rhythm Stick” on a boombox. According to my originalist interpretation of the constitution, that is what the Founders intended.
Frankensteinbeck
@Ohio Mom:
He never attends them. He lets his laywers handle them. This is a very new situation to him – big stakes, personally in the courtroom, and he doesn’t have the overwhelming advantage of being much richer than his opponent. He’s been in cognitive decline for years, so there is that, but he’s also never been under this kind of courtroom pressure.
pat
Is this horror show being filmed?
MattF
Trump will try to push over any railings intended to restrain him. It’s a political and ‘branding’ strategy, not a legal strategy. The weakness is that everyone not wearing a red hat knows it’s all lies, all whining, all the time. His fans eat it up— everyone else, not so much.
Soprano2
@Ohio Mom: The claim is that they’re trying to provoke the judge into making an easily reversible error. I hope the judge is too smart to take the bait.
Frankensteinbeck
By the way, the 15 minute break for Kise to talk to his client seems to have helped. Trump is shutting up when ordered to, and his answers are less obvious confessions. It’s still not a good sign when the judge asks the prosecutor if he wants to stop Trump rambling and the prosecutor says no, he wants this on the record.
trollhattan
Trump seems 80:20 campaigning:defending himself. He does not see this trial as an existential threat to his New York bidnezes, even unconcerned it might besmirch (as if) the Trump Brand®.
It’s just one state among fifty, so there’s that.
trollhattan
@John S.: Circus whales leaping between the blades?
As unhinged as his “flushing ten times” rant.
Geminid
Trump is liable to lose a lot of money in this lawsuit, possibly several hundred million dollars.
Frankensteinbeck
@trollhattan:
Yeah, but from what I’m reading, very little is political. He’s going on about the Trump brand from a business perspective, how everything he owns is the most awesome. Only a few “I’m being persecuted” jabs.
Trump Org is registered in that state, and is going to be dissolved. They’re asking about properties all over the world, including Mar A Lago. I’m pretty sure the stakes her are everything, his entire business empire, all about to be sold at fire sale prices out from under him to pay his penalties.
EDIT – Nevermind, he’s drifting back into “Waah, every other judge in the country agrees with me, this is so unfair, this trial is illegitimate.” And Kise is arguing with the judge over whether Trump has answered questions.
What. A. Clusterfuck.
EDIT EDIT – And it’s getting worse. Now Trump is melting down, in “I’m not committing fraud, you’re committing fraud!” style. “Also my defense is Disclaimers, even though you’ve already said that defense is invalid!”
Ruckus
@Urza:
That IF is doing a hell of a lot of work there. And has been for a very long time. Like his entire life. He is a person who tasted power and believes that is his destiny, his lot in life. Because of course he’s so good at it. Just ask him. And there are all these people telling him that he’s really the same useless POS he’s been his entire life. And he thinks that is praise. Well deserved praise. Also to him, money is the only power, which is why he can’t add or remember exactly how much he has, so he does the thing he’s done his entire life – he lies about it. OK that, and everything else. And because he went just a tad too far, it’s all catching up with him. (That tad is doing some very heavy lifting and sarcastic work there. Just in case you weren’t sure.)
narya
He keeps saying there’s a disclaimer clause so that the people reading the valuations shouldn’t believe it, that they have to do their own due diligence. That’s insane.
Uncle Cosmo
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: Rope-For-A-Dope!! Make it long enough for a swan-dive from the Trump Tower NYC roof – that’d afford the guilty!guilty!guilty! party something on the order of 6.45 seconds (ignoring air friction) of freefalling bliss before being, umm, brought up short.
CaseyL
The Guardian is also live-blogging the trial, with updates a bit more detailed than WaPo, for anyone who’s interested.
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck: Trump’s behavior does not surprise me. But Chris Kise is all but literally flipping off the judge, and doing it with a smirk on his face.
That’s just bizarre.
Betty Cracker
@Soprano2: Hahaha! From the snippets I read, it sounds like if anything, the judge is serving as Trump’s lawyer by trying to shush him for his own good. What a goddamn idiot Trump is!
bbleh
@MattF: this exactly — he’s not a ONE-trick pony, but this is one of his most popular tricks. That he’s resorting to it again and again, in a situation where it’s not going to help him much and could hurt him considerably, suggests to me that he’s flailing.
@Frankensteinbeck: @Soprano2: I keep coming back to the fact that Engoron used to drive a cab in NY. The guy has probably dealt with more rich assholes than TIFG and his Florida-politico and Fox-personality lawyers even know exist. And they’ve found that attacking his clerk is a sore spot for him so they’ve gone to that when they’ve needed to, but my understanding is that they don’t entirely understand the role of a clerk in a NY superior court, so it’s an even dumber thing to do than it might at first appear
@Frankensteinbeck: This is one of my favorite parts — telling the prosecutor and the judge, “yeah, I knew all about all that fraudulent stuff, but I am a master of the law, so it’s all good.”
Anoniminous
@Frankensteinbeck:
Not a clusterfuck. A Thing of Beauty. Always good when your enemy self-immolates.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So Trump’s argument is basically “This property is worth umpty-billion dollars for purpose of the fine, because I say so!”?
lowtechcyclist
@Frankensteinbeck:
Sounds to me like a great sign!
Jeffro
Does he have dollars? I would have thought it would all be in rubles.
Sister Golden Bear
From the Guardian:
p.a.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a damages trial? tRump has already been found guilty of fraud. This is just to determine how much he’s going to get whacked? ETA: does tRump realize this? Is defense looking to piss off the judge hoping he does something to disqualify the whole proceeding?
geg6
@WaterGirl:
I noticed that during Eric’s testimony. I thought this Kise guy was supposed to be a good lawyer. Apparently not.
Ruckus
@pat:
No one (OK I crack myself up once in a while..) would remember this shit show if it wasn’t filmed. But they film it so that if he appeals they have proof. He is the person I call (and I’m not the only one) SFB – Shit For Brains. Because he is and has been his entire life. It just looks worse on film and which brings out the obvious derangement. Or lack of actual human thought. One or the other. Hmmmm, does anyone think it’s both? I don’t, he’s just an extremely over sized egomaniac, self indulged asshole, who, if his father hadn’t been a such a scummy NYC landlord, likely would never have gotten to this point in life. However, he’s the one doing all that he does, his father just lit the pilot light.
lollipopguild
@Uncle Cosmo: “Top of the world Ma!” then BOOM!
bbleh
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: “… but also I knew the financial statements — which included a clause specifying that I was responsible for them — were false, but they also included a clause saying you couldn’t rely on them, so that lets me off the hook.”
So they ARE worth a billion, but the statement that said so was knowingly false, so they’re NOT worth a billion, but it also said it’s worthless, so that makes everything ok, so maybe they ARE worth a billion after all. Or not.
@WaterGirl: why do I get the feeling Kise will be retiring from practicing law after this case?
geg6
@p.a.:
You are correct. As for how much he’ll have to pay? If he keeps up the shit he’s pulling today (and his idiot attorney, Kise, too), I say all of it, Katie. Of course, IANAL. So it could be that judges love the kind of display being put on today in their courtrooms.
satby
@Sister Golden Bear: and the key thing about that is it’s all up to his judgement. No jury, though tfg and his attorneys are playing to the public as if they were a jury.
Scout211
I would bet that she does have them and they are marked as evidence. I read an interview this morning of an attorney who questioned Trump in a deposition and she advised that the most effective way to question him under oath is to flatter him and let him talk on and on. And then confront him with the evidence that proves what he just said is false. That method was effective with Eric last week.
pat
Lovely day, sun shining, 60 degrees, light breeze… In western WI in November.
I think I need to go for a walk. I’ll catch up on stuff when I get back, in about an hour. Have fun, guys.
frosty
@geg6: He’s good enough to get paid up front. I think that’s the high bar for Trump lawyers now.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
My god the parody material here. lol
Barry
@Ohio Mom: “As I understand it, Trump has been involved in a gazillion lawsuits. So he has to know how to behave inside a courtroom.”
Live off of rich privilege and outspend/outwait the other party.
Scout211
Oh yeah, like Eastman’s caveats that made all of his false statements true. It’s magic!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The whole thing does come across that Trump is just flabbergasted that someone would dare question him to his face.
Betty Cracker
@geg6: Kise was smart enough to get a multimillion dollar retainer up front, but apart from that, I’m not seeing evidence of his alleged brilliance either.
Jeffro
OT but per the morning thread, that Times piece by Wehner is now titled “Republicans Have Chosen Nihilism “ (instead of saying Trump Closed GOP Minds or whatever)
much more accurate in putting the blame on their voters, who have indeed chosen their path
MisterForkbeard
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony: This needs a “sir”
p.a.
“It’s perfectly legal to overstate value for loan collateral purposes and understate it for tax purposes. Everyone [in high-end NCY realty] does it!”👍🏻
Ruckus
@Geminid:
Do you really think he has several hundred million dollars?
He lies about everything. He’s not actually an idiot, he’s just been playing his game for so long that he long ago accepted it as truth, he is a very rich and powerful MAN. In his mind anyway. Sure he’s not some poor loudmouth living on bus benches, but he is a loudmouthed egomaniac without any rational reason to act like he does.
gene108
@narya:
State and federal prosecutors aren’t as easy to bully as small contractors he wants to stiff.
Based on his legal strategies, I’m not sure that’s sunk in.
Scout211
And a “beautiful” rope!
CaseyL
@Betty Cracker: $3 million isn’t that much money in New York. It’s not enough to retire and live large on (though I don’t know if Kise actually lives in New York).
Kise had a good reputation before all this – at least, that’s what I’ve read. Maybe he’s just another nitwit finding out “ETTD” the hard way.
Or he may be hoping to build a RW oligarch client base, though I’m not sure losing in court like this will help that dream.
And if the verdict becomes meaningless because Trump gets back into the WH, then RW oligarchs won’t need lawyers because the country will belong to them and they can do anything they want.
MisterForkbeard
@Scout211: This always drove me nuts. Eastman was saying things like “If the election was stolen, we’d be totally justified in overthrowing the country, instituting martial law, and violently repressing democrats! So let’s do all those things”
And then skipped over the whole part where he actually needed to show any wrongdoing at all.
MisterForkbeard
@Scout211: How could I have forgotten about the “beautiful”? I’m clearly off my game
WaterGirl
@Sister Golden Bear: I think that was an hour or more ago before the break. It’s crazy, but most of what is being described here is AFTER that.
catclub
@Soprano2:
Cunning plan, on the Baldrick level of cunning plans.
narya
@gene108: In one of the the threads, there’s a link to the judge’s previous opinions in this case. I skimmed it, but oof, the judge is not playing around. And I’m gonna invoke Sam Bankman-Fried, who also thought he was gonna be able to EXPLAIN, to a jury, no less–and who was found guilty in less than a day. People who are used to getting away with it just don’t fully comprehend that it’s not a strategy that is going to work everywhere.
Ruckus
@narya:
That’s insane.
By George I think you’ve got it!
Rich insanity looks different than poor insanity, because he has enough money to spend on (not very good) lawyers. Poor insanity is standing on street corners wondering which way is up and why am I naked? Same thing going on, just a different stage and one costs a lot to put on the show.
columbusqueen
@glory b: No kidding. Rule #1 for both depositions & trials? If it’s a yes or no question, THAT’S ALL YOU SAY. Overexplaining kills.
WaterGirl
@geg6: Their only move, apparently, since the lawyers (at least) KNOW they have lost the case, is to goad the judge into doing something that will get the ruling thrown out on appeal.
Still, that smirking and total disrespect from Kise surely has to hurt his career. *Omnes (I think) said that since Kise is not a NY lawyer, and had to ask for special permission to represent Trump in NY, he does not seem to understand that in NY the clerks have more authority than Kise is likely used to, and he has gotten himself in hot water over the total disrespect – to be dealt with after this case is over.
*Omnes may correct me if I got any of that wrong. And I’m pretty sure it was Omnes, but not 100% sure.
edit: oops, it was coin operated!
Captain C
@WaterGirl: Perhaps he thinks that Trump will surely win in ’24, and he (Kise) will be appointed as Grand Judicial Inquisitor so he can get revenge on all the Judges who didn’t rule the way he wanted. Otherwise, based on what I’m hearing (and IADNAL, D for Definitely), I would imagine that Kise may be in for some professional trouble after all this.
Ruckus
@WaterGirl:
Idiot clients can’t tell the difference or actually like crappy lawyers, because they remind them of themselves. I’m going with #2 here.
catclub
@p.a.: Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a damages trial?
You are correct. I think the judge will be justified in saying “you claim to be a billionaire and have refused to admit you will change, so I will fine you enough so that you will change.”
narya
Alright, they’re breaking for lunch, and it’s sunny and beautiful, so it’s time for a walk.
Redshift
@Frankensteinbeck:
Maybe not in court, but from what I’ve read he used to be very good at controlling himself when under oath giving depositions for those lawsuits. He’d spout all kinds of garbage beforehand, but as soon as he was under oath he’d be much more careful.
So he used to be capable of that, and has either lost the ability or he’s knows he can’t win this legally and is throwing away any attempt at that to go for political advantage. Probably both.
WaterGirl
@bbleh: Maybe he can get work as an ambulance chaser. Kise has flushed HIS ENTIRE REPUTATION down the toilet. Mind-boggling.
Captain C
@Ruckus:
If his father hadn’t been such, with connections, TFG would be a multiply-convicted used car dealer or small-time real estate scammer. Or possibly dead from McDonald’s and KFC debris blocking all of his coronary arteries.
Ruckus
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
So Trump’s argument is basically “This property is worth umpty-billion dollars for purpose of the fine, because I say so!”?
By George I think he’s got it!!!!
prostratedragon
@John S.: 🏒🏒🏒
If your nerves need soothing/blood pressure needs lowering, have a little Doc Watson.
Anoniminous
From the Guardian Live Blog
Holy shit. It really is All About Him.
Omnes Omnibus
@columbusqueen: If the yes or no answer requires explanation, your counsel will ask the questions to provide it later.
bbleh
@WaterGirl: or as an elected lawyer-type guy, like, say, Florida AG 😃
eclare
@bbleh:
That’s an interesting nugget, the judge used to drive a cab. Yep, he’s used to rich assholes.
John S.
@Captain C:
If I had enough money to afford a personal chef, I would be eating all the amazing and fresh local foods that are available. The last thing I would ever want to go near is manufactured and over-processed shit being passed off as food.
MisterForkbeard
@Anoniminous: It really is nuts. There’s a disclaimer on the valuations that says they may not be 100% accurate (reasonable! you might miss things).
This does not absolve you from inflating the value of a property by 1000% to get better terms on a loan.
And it’s insane that Trump is still campaigning, literally from the witness stand
Betty Cracker
@CaseyL: Kise lives in FL (former solicitor general, IIRC), and $3 mill is still a fairly large chunk of change here (though less than it was before Kise’s client wrecked the country).
Ken
The prosecuting attorney glances at her notes, which clearly show that her question was about the square footage of Trump’s penthouse. Glancing at the judge, she makes eye contact, and both nod infinitesimally…
WaterGirl
@Captain C: Yes, someone (maybe Omnes) described as “Kise is going to be going through some things after the trial.”
bbleh
@Anoniminous: srsly. I guess the whole “trier of fact” bit has kinda slipped his mind. And I gotta wonder, do they really think they’ve got any better chance on appeal? And is there really anything that they could appeal beyond the state level?
I guess this is why nobody pays ME $3M retainers …
geg6
@CaseyL:
I don’t believe Kise lives in NY. I believe he has some sort of temporary pass to be on this case in NY as long as there is a licensed NY attorney on the team.
Alison Rose
[ugh never mind, the damn link refuses to work]
patrick II
@WaterGirl: No. big fingers, little phone.
bbleh
@Ken: maybe at some point the prosecutor will figure “eh, my work here is done,” and start having some fun. “So Mr. Trump, do you believe one of these dead whales would fit into your penthouse? How about two? Would that change its value? Would it need to be reflected specifically in financial statements?”
dmsilev
@Anoniminous: Has he started ranting about the missing can of strawberries yet?
Ruckus
@Captain C:
I like the way you think.
Clear, concise, thoughtful.
And with positive outcomes.
eclare
@Anoniminous:
Holy fucking shit. That judge is going to fine him at least the $250M.
Redshift
@Anoniminous:
Oh my god, he’s treating a judicial opinion as “just your opinion” the way creationists dismiss the theory of evolution as “just a theory.” That’s not going to go well.
bbleh
Trump Strips Off Clothes On Stand
And Hurls Feces At Trial Judge
Swing State Poll Numbers Surge
Why Biden should be worried
eclare
@bbleh:
Hahaha…
eclare
@dmsilev:
Any minute now, I’m sure.
Ruckus
@Anoniminous:
Holy shit. It really is All About Him.
I’ve said this before – He is the dictionary definition of EGOMANIAC.
The not so deluxe, but HUGE version of it.
Ruckus
@John S.:
That’s why no one will ever mistake you for his majesty – SFB. Of course very few actual humans would ever be mistaken for that.
Ken
That wouldn’t happen, because the drop is too long for his weight — whatever that may be. Instead there would be a catastrophic failure of the cervical spine, after which the two pieces would separately encounter the sidewalk.
coin operated
@WaterGirl: That was me. I was supposed to follow up, but this was a patching weekend and I had the oncall shifts from hell.
Kise is *already* under sanction (from a Sep 26th decision) for repeating claims that had already been ajuticated. I had read elsewhere that, after taking a swipe at the clerk, several legal types were saying that Kise really stepped in it and that sanctions would be handed down after trial.
I still owe you those citations…I’ll try to dig ’em up.
dmsilev
@Redshift: How long until he busts out the “Sovereign Citizen” crap?
“Objection, gold fringes on the flag!”
p.a.
Has Putin ever thought to himself, “how has that country achieved what it has when so many citizens support an idiot like tRump? And why couldn’t I have had someone competent to work at subverting them!”
gene108
@narya:
I work in accounting.
I’ve submitted management (unaudited) statements to banks and other businesses. There’s disclaimer that these statements are not audited, ie verified by a third party, but the underlying assumption is management isn’t pulling numbers out their ass.
If property has not had a proper appraisal to determine value, the assumption is again management’s trying to keep the estimated value relatively reality based.
Management can fudge it up a bit, but not to the level of what Trump did, or just make up arbitrary numbers. Look at comps and err on the side of higher end listings. Market value can’t be determined until the real property is sold, but if you use business property as collateral keep the value at some real world number that other properties are listed at.
Geminid
@Ruckus: I don’t know what Trump’s bslance sheet looks like. But the judge is going to assess damages regardless of Trump’s current finances. A lawyer friend who has watched this trial closely says that damages will be tied to the finacial gains made through fraud, and could run to over $500 million.
CaseyL
@Betty Cracker: Ah. I’m sure I read about that when Trump hired him, but had forgotten. A GOP Florida lawyer – explains much.
trollhattan
@Ken: That poor sidewalk.
Frank Wilhoit
@dmsilev: The flag in the auditorium at my grade school had gold fringe. I always thought it was merely tasteless….
trollhattan
@Anoniminous:
Big “DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?” vibes.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@WaterGirl: The smirk of a lawyer who got paid in advance and knows his client is guilty as sin.
Danielx
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
The best, most incredible rope!
Ruckus
@Geminid:
Wouldn’t that be nice? Seeing the proof that he’s worth billions of lies. I mean really, what’s the difference between dollars and lies?
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
@MisterForkbeard:
You are 100% correct. I meant to put that in there. Also, Scout’s ‘beautiful’ rope suggestion was a good one.
Soprano2
Is there a person in the United States at this point who doesn’t know anything about TFG?
Jackie
@John S.:
TIFG has a real phobia about being poisoned; thus his obsession with fast food.
Captain C
@bbleh:
Leading to Bobo’s next column: “Why Can’t Democrats Be More Civil and Professional-Acting?”
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
If I were Engoron, I’d have already yeeted Kise’s pro hac vice status into the sun by now for his disrespect (there are some disciplinary rules he can invoke) and would explain that Habba is perfectly adequate to handle things from here on. I’d also call a little recess and would explain to the lovely Ms Habba that any further disrespect from her is going to result in escalating contempts, the third such instance to include a 10 day stay in wherever female contemnors in Manhattan go, and that I’d be happy to recess this phase for the service of her sentence.
I’ve pushed the shit out of judges from time to time, but I’ve never seen such open contempt of the bench during a record proceeding by lawyers or litigants go so mildly remedied.
MattF
@Soprano2: Trump is a fraud and water is wet.
Soprano2
@bbleh: Is that DougJ or the Onion?
Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg
@Soprano2:
What makes me laugh is the number of low T white males who think that this whiner is some kind of alpha male.
He constantly whines, has never changed the oil in his car, wears makeup, is fussy about how his hair is done, has never unclogged a drain, has never swapped out sparkplugs, has never unclogged a drain and probably doesn’t tie his own shoes. Alpha male? LOL
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
Obviously, they are going to appeal. I’m wondering if Kise wants this all on record because he’s going to argue that Trump is so clearly addled that he couldn’t really be responsible for those valuations. That others took advantage of his obvious lunacy.
Frankensteinbeck
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg:
But he never admits he’s wrong, never shows respect for anyone else, openly treats women like their only value is sex, and is rich. He does act like they think an ‘alpha male’ acts, like they want to be able to get away with.
Miss Bianca
@John S.:
Except his own. Except.his.own.
scav
@Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg: Looking at that(their) body(ies) we’re definitely talking software, and thus “…. the context of software, where alpha versions are unstable, missing important features, filled with flaws, and not fit for the public” applies.
lowtechcyclist
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Hell, do without the rope. Let it be The Emperor’s New Rope, made out of such fine stuff as to be invisible. The perfect rope, that will enable the perfect >splat< of his body upon reaching the sidewalk.
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@Ken: Hmm, someone else thinking along the same lines. I’ll let you know the answer when i find that copy of “The Finer points of Hanging”
Miss Bianca
@bbleh:
LOL
BethanyAnne
I just keep coming back to different valuations for tax and loan purposes. That seems like the line of followup questioning to, well, follow. “Ok, 1.5B in value. Where is that on your taxes again?”
cain
@Geminid:
He’s going to have dig deep into his supporter’s pockets to help pay for that!
He’s gonna bankrupt his base.
Frankensteinbeck
@cain:
That’s the great part. It gets paid for by selling off Trump Org assets. You know, like Mar A Lago. At whatever prices the court-appointed business manager thinks are appropriate.
Kent
My college age daughter just texted me to ask what is going wrong with Trump.
Apparently TikTok or Discord or wherever she frequents online with other young college students is blowing up with memes and comments about how Trump is bumbling it big time in this trial.
First time she has ever done that. So apparently this stuff is starting to finally penetrate. One can only hope.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Kent: Trump has benefited by being out of sight for most people.
Citizen Alan
@WaterGirl: I think Chris Kise thinks he’s going to get an appellate judgeship or better if Shitgibbon or someone loyal to him is elected POTUS.
...now I try to be amused
@WaterGirl:
“Richard M. Nixon” on Twitter calls it the Chicago 7 defense.
Citizen Alan
@p.a.: Oh, please tell me that was a direct quote!
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
I’m just grateful all this is going down AFTER Trump sunk DeSantis. His star isn’t going to rise in response to Trump’s issues starting to sink in with the broader public. Also, SNL is going to be LIT this weekend!
eclare
@Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony:
Looking forward to Colbert this week, that also should be lit!
Citizen Alan
@p.a.:
It has taken over 45 years for the conservatives’ instinctive hatred for education, expertise and nuance to turn half the country into an Idiocracy that would support Russia over Ukraine and America.
Jeffro
@bbleh: the involuntary projectile barfing from seeing trump naked would probably negate the value (to MAGAts) of him throwing feces at the judge, but who knows with those people? Maybe they’d be in ectstasy? Let’s not find out.
Frankensteinbeck
@Citizen Alan:
I was thinking it took two months after electing a black president.
wjca
Sounds like you’re describing a monofilament line. Of course, those tend to cut rather like a sharp knife in these circumstances….
Ken
@wjca: I feel we’re circling back to the classic piano wire, with its rich symbolic history.
PaulWartenberg
trump is 1) trying to bully the entire courtroom to submit to him, and
2) trying to set up an appeal arguing that the judge was openly biased against him and denied him his rights on the stand.
Problem with 1) is that bullying a judge is never a good idea and problem with 2) is that the New York appellate judges are going to see trump’s own misbehavior on the stand negating any claim of bias.
Even street-level drug thugs know not to act that way on the stand.
Wapiti
@p.a.: “Oh really, Mr. Trump. Name 3 people or organizations who do fraudulent stuff like this.”
“… and do you have any proof?”
scav
@Ken: Or certain cheese wire setups, which would certainly go well with the the whole pudgy orange theme.
TheOtherHank
@Jackie:
I admit no guilt, but lets just say I might have worked at a McDonalds in my misspent youth. And it is perhaps possible that various items of food (patties and buns) got dropped on the floor and then picked up and assembled into completed sandwiches. It turns out being more afraid the manager would be mad about a missing burger than serving funky food is a bad motivator.
p.a.
@Citizen Alan: No, but from what I understand it is SOP (nod/wink with city officials as it keeps real estate upgraded), although not (of course) to tRump’s extent.
Frankensteinbeck
@PaulWartenberg:
That seems like a pipe dream. The judge isn’t giving him any opportunities at all. “Told me to stop rambling and answer the question,” is not going to go anywhere as a complaint.
coin operated
@PaulWartenberg:
ayup. I immediatly thought that calling Engoron a fraud in open court isn’t likely to go over well at the Appellate level.
p.a.
@Frankensteinbeck: “He ruled against me!” as evidence of bias😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Anoniminous
@Frankensteinbeck:
Is there any chance this thing could go to the Federal level?
Omnes Omnibus
@PaulWartenberg: Professional criminal are actually very good clients. They pay on time. They listen to counsel. And they often have a pretty good idea of their legal situation and are looking to do the minimum time possible based on that situation.
bbleh
@Frankensteinbeck: @Anoniminous: needs to be a federal issue, no? Among which I presume would be denial of Constitutional rights eg due process, but offhand that would seem like a Hail Mary to me ..
@Jeffro: he’s got a pretty good native sense of TV — I’m sure he’d keep the Naughty Bits below the rail
Ken
Especially with the “doesn’t he know who I am” overtones. Though “overtones” isn’t the right word, they were the primary note, as well as all higher harmonics.
Redshift
@Anoniminous:
So revealing. The ruling is that he committed fraud, but in his mind the judge ruled that he is a fraud. From what I’ve heard discussed about narcissists, being a fraud is what narcissists will do anything to keep from admitting to themselves.
Frankensteinbeck
@Anoniminous:
I am very much not a lawyer, but I haven’t heard anybody talk about the Supreme Court as a factor. I don’t think they have any power over this one.
MisterForkbeard
@Anoniminous: It absolutely will be appealed as far up as it can go.
Trump is going to try and use the gag order and being told to behave in Court (as well as the lack of a jury he didn’t ask for) as examples of egregious bias and why the SC needs to take over and grant an appeal
Captain C
@Wapiti:
Possibly followed by, “thanks for the tip. We’ll be sure to tell Mr. Bonnano, Mr. Lucchese, and Mr. Genovese that you sent us.
(Yes, I know the Five Families have other heads now.)
M31
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
Yeah, and the NYT covered for him by cleaning up his rambling incoherence when they quote him.
Now, of course, when they quote Biden, they include every ” um” . It’s infuriating and so obvious.
Scout211
From the CNN live updates, as the trial resumes, a statement from “the Trump team.”
So apparently, “the Trump team” doesn’t give a sh*t about the actual trial. All they care about is how this will play with the fans and the GOP voters.
I realize Trump hates to be called a loser but clearly this obnoxious witness display will be turned into a win for him by his team.
It almost seems like a trump is cosplaying his whole life now.
Steeplejack
@Scout211:
I look forward to how the Trumpers spin it when he has to disgorge millions of dollars.
Barbara
@Scout211: Rallies are expensive and exhausting but coverage of his courtroom antics is free and aimed at appealing to a certain type of voter. I don’t know why anyone is surprised.
Anoniminous
From the Guardian
MAN them people are scum
Frankensteinbeck
@Barbara:
This rally is going to cost him $500 million.
eclare
@Captain C:
He has no idea who he is dealing with, including Putin and MBS.
WaterGirl
@patrick II: okay, I’ll change the ones that are funky.
cain
@Frankensteinbeck:
Imagine him whining about what it is worth. He’s probably dumb enough to complain about the business manager and that he could have gotten a better deal. Read his book!
He’s getting his just desserts. But he’s still going going to ask his people for money so he can appeal everything.
Barbara
@Frankensteinbeck: Somewhere down the road. I guess you have never tried to collect a judgment. He’ll cross that bridge when he gets to it.
Redshift
@Scout211:
His only strategy for winning any of these cases is to be elected dictator and make it go away. He’s campaigning to save his own ass, like Netanyahu. That’s why the show is all they care about.
Frankensteinbeck
@Barbara:
No, but it’s probably easier when there’s already somebody appointed by the court running the company now with the specific purpose of making sure Trump can’t evade punishment?
Redshift
@Anoniminous:
Ah, the classic Republican line, “Only Republicans can investigate Republicans, because Democrats would be biased against them. And only Republicans can investigate Democrats because Democrats would be biased in their favor. QED”
(Left unsaid “we’re sure of this because that’s what we would do”…)
cain
@MisterForkbeard:
Right winger network is already focusing on the fact that everyone prosecuting is a Democrat and this is all liberal scum doing political hack jobs on Trump.
WaterGirl
@coin operated: Thanks for the correction! I knew Omnes was part of that thread and contributed some info, but wasn’t sure that was him!
Hard to believe that your day job would take precedence over something someone ask you for on a blog! //
trollhattan
@Anoniminous: Somebody born when the Soviet Union collapsed is now 32. Describing something/someone as “Soviet” is about as relevant as bitching about how long it takes to dial your aunt in Arizona, or how your television’s rabbit ears don’t work well for channel 53.
Omnes Omnibus
@Barbara: My understanding is that the Trump Org assets are already under third party control and will be sold off. The question here is how much goes to penalties and fines and how much will be left for other plaintiffs.
Ken
TRUMP: “What happened to Mar-A-Lago?”
COURT-APPOINTED EXECUT
IONER: “There was a carpenter in Queens who’s been trying to collect on a $3900 bill from you for close to two decades, so I sold it and paid him.”teezyskeezy
@trollhattan: My rabbit ears currently do not work well for channel 53.
JaySinWA
@Omnes Omnibus: I just tried looking for how the receiver ruling was going. Last I heard it was under a stay. There were some restrictions on what the Trump Org. could do but they apparently were still running the company as of Oct 9.
https://www.legaldive.com/news/judge-stays-cancellation-trump-org-business-certificates/695999/
Do you have current info?
Jeffro
I think that’s correct.
The only way out for trump (financially, politically, and even psychologically) is to regain the WH and (ab)use his power to exonerate himself, protect his “business” “empire”, and punish his enemies.
So…the trial? He doesn’t give a shit. Just stay righteous (righteous is good TV!) and keep it together for 2024.
cain
Look as long as he doesn’t deploy the Chewbecca Defense. We are all safe!
lowtechcyclist
@…now I try to be amused:
Abbie Hoffman > Judge Julius Hoffman
Naturally someone with the handle ‘Richard M. Nixon’ would think of that!
Mel
@trollhattan: Unless your target audience is 65 to 85 year old Fox viewers who have knee-jerk reactions to Cold War era tropes.
The Soviet/Russia dog-whistles get tossed whichever way the audience wind blows, it seems. At a redneck rally? “Russia strong, Putin good, Democrats are weak, stupid libtards!” Playing to the oldsters at home glued to the trial coverage? “Soviets = communist, communists are the devil, Democrats are evil, crafty, aggressive Commies, stealing all your rights and eating babies!!”
Dorothy A. Winsor
@M31: Even Fox tapes him ahead of time and pick and chooses what they show. In their case, they’re afraid of being sued, but it helps Trump appear less crazy and more coherent.
lowtechcyclist
@Jeffro:
I think you misspelled ‘on’ ;-)
WaterGirl
@Citizen Alan: That is the first explanation I have heard that makes any sense at all. Like Cannon. She is willing to look like the fool she is – betting big that she could move up the judge ranks pretty quickly. Like a rocket, if Trump wins.
Barbara
@Omnes Omnibus: I don’t want to overstate it or come off as a pessimist, but that means he has almost nothing to lose by carrying on as he is now doing.
lowtechcyclist
@wjca:
Drop the ‘mo’ at the beginning of ‘monofilament’ and you’ve got it. :-D
lowtechcyclist
@Ken:
It’s the old ‘garotte and stick’ approach.
StringOnAStick
@cain:
Fine with me. They’ll have less to spend on idiot monster pickups, so its good for the planet too.
Uncle Cosmo
My foist jerb was at a classic Golden Arches McD a 15-minute walk from home. We were allowed to eat & drink however much we wanted for free during the 15-minute break we got every 4 hours, with one important proviso: We could not use any cups, cup lids, or wrappers unless we paid. for whatever they might contain. It turned out that at that time Corporate tracked sales at each franchise (& the amount the franchise had to send up the line) not by food but by the number of those items expended. So if you wanted to scarf a free soda or clayshake or burger or fish “filet” or fries, you had to bring your own containers. (In my brief stint I would put away a couple of double cheeseburgers [Mickey D hadn’t yet stolen the Gino Giant from Gino’s, put sesame seeds on the bun & renamed it “Big Mac”] and a shake.) In the back there was a rack set aside for us to stash all our things.
WaterGirl
@PaulWartenberg: All bullies are cowards!
Ruckus
@Captain C:
Using the truth here I see…..
That can get ugly you know.
Shalimar
@trollhattan: All the underage prostitutes that Taibbi paid when he was in Moscow now have kids who are too old for him.
sukabi
not sure who trump’s trying to impress, there is no jury and the judge has already found him guilty of fraud….Pissing off the judge will only make the penalties more severe…. unless he thinks he can get out of it by being insane….
JaySinWA
@Barbara: I’m not sure Omnes premise is correct. The cancelling of business licences and appointing a receiver was reversed or at least stayed in an appeal.
I linked an article in my response above
Here’s WAPO with a different version of the same story.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/10/06/trump-fraud-trial-appeal/
I haven’t found anything newer about the process of setting up a receiver. There were supposed to be hearings
WaterGirl
@Redshift: Well, Trump really is a fraud. He pretends to be strong, but he is weak. He is a big bully, and he really is a coward. He pretends to be ultra-rich, but I bet he isn’t. and on and on
Warblewarble
Meanwhile in serious news. 2 headlines from the Guardian. ” Blinken leaves the Middle East with no progress on hostages or humanitarian pause.” “US planning $320 transfer of precision bombs for Israel”
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck: As I understand it, the Supreme Court is not in the chain for civil trials. Or state ones. Omnes or some other attorney will correct me if I’m wrong.
Nettoyeur
@…now I try to be amused: Exactly. Trump and Kise hope the circus will blow up as the Chicago 7 trial did. But the Chicago 7 merely organized a protest that turned into a riot. Free speech and all. Trump Org engaged in billions of dollars in fraud, and there are receipts.
Matt McIrvin
@sukabi: The voters. Trump cannot win any of these cases except the documents case (where the judge is on his side), but he *could* be elected President again and use that as his get-out-of-jail-free card. That’s what he’s got left at this point.
unctuous
@Frankensteinbeck: You are dialed in on this entire thread my man.
Omnes Omnibus
@JaySinWA: Nothing more current than that.
@Barbara: That’s probably the case. OTOH once the case is done and the receiver takes charge, collection won’t be that big a problem. If he runs out of assets before judgements are satisfied, that is his problem.
Shalimar
@WaterGirl: Have never been in the chain doesn’t mean the SC can’t accept an appeal. All they have to do is invent a new doctrine that all judicial cases concerning ex-presidents raise federal questions.
I don’t think they will stick their necks out to help Trump like that. But it wouldn’t be their dumbest decision from the last few years.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: It is if there are federal or Constitutional issues. And there are other circumstances in which it can go that high but I won’t bore people with them here.
RevRick
@MisterForkbeard: What’s hilarious is reading the comments from MAGA chuds on X. It’s all boorah all the time, about how Trump is kicking the court’s butt. And the replies are all incredulous, “You do know that’s not how a court works?”
There go two miscreants
No one deserves to be that blessed!!
Annie
Kise probably applied in New York for what’s called pro hac vice admission. An attorney who is admitted in New York sponsors the application, there’s usually a fee to the state bar, and the court admits you.
Appeals are not that easy to win — and I work as a clerk (not a law clerk, the meet-the-public clerk) in an appeals court. The judge would have to make (1) an error of legal procedure that (2) affected the outcome of the trial. Also, though I don’t know the status in New York, in California where I work, anybody who’s lost in the trial court can file an appeal, but that does not mean they win, it just means the appeals court will consider their case.
Does any one know the story about judges’ clerks in New York? Here in California a judge’s law clerk assists the judge with legal research and checking citations to law reports and the records, and sometimes does initial drafts of decisions, but it’s still the judge who actually decides.
I have noticed, working in an appeals court, that litigants who don’t know what they are doing tend to find really bad lawyers — I’ve decided it’s because the litigants won’t accept good legal advice if it contradicts what they want. Sounds like Tr*** is doing that.
kalakal
@lowtechcyclist:
Well played. well played 👏👏👏👏
Redshift
@StringOnAStick:
More important, the more they give to TFG to spend on legal bills, the less they have to give to other Republicans!
Scout211
The Trump lawyers are discussing filing for a mistrial.
unctuous
@Scout211:
That’s pretty much what people in the dark triad do, isn’t it? Cosplay at being a human being?
There is no real there there for Trump. Nothing other than his own wants, and where everything he wants is a need, always needed to fill the never-filled emptiness, the always hollow place where a soul should be.
lowtechcyclist
@Warblewarble:
Wow, precision bombs cost way less than I’d have expected!
(I expect you’re missing some zeroes, or a letter representing such)
Chris Johnson
A bunch of these people seem not to understand Trump is a gigantic fraud running on Russian money and always has been… and a bunch of them, particularly those prosecuting and judging him, seem to know all those things.
It’s like defusing a bomb. They’re working methodically, as they should. His time is past: I strongly suspect Russia doesn’t even have any money for him to play with anymore, even for appearances.
His diet is because he thinks if he can get random McDs, it won’t have polonium in it because Putin can’t poison every Big Mac. His behavior is because this is the only way he has left to serve Putin: making the whole thing a mockery, at which he’s well suited. The point is not him winning, the point is how big of a mess he can make, because that’s always been his job when he hasn’t been the guy for financial entrapment (Epstein was the guy for sexual entrapment). Sure they’re crude: that’s Russia, baby!
He is now the ace in the hole for stoking a full civil war, except that he is a two rather than an ace. But that is the only role he can still play.
Assholes, the lot of them.
Ken
(NARRATOR) No. No, they do not.
Bill Arnold
@kalakal:
Also, “garotte and stick” is original according to google. Very seldom do I see a clever 3 word combination with no google hits.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: You don’t think there’s anything here that would send the case to the Supreme Court, do you?
(I still say that, even while knowing that the current SC is filled with 6 partisan hacks.)
WaterGirl
@Annie: Great information, thank you!
All I know about clerks in NY is that they often play a more prominent role than in many other states.
I know that’s true, because I read it on the internet. :-)
WaterGirl
@lowtechcyclist: I thought, “wow, the US is playing hardball! Israel tells us to fuck off with our advice, so we only send them $320 of equipment.”
I was impressed! :-)
stinger
@lowtechcyclist:
No, you see, the $320 is for the transfer. It’s the cost of 485 first-class postage stamps. USPS’ll gitter there!
Warblewarble
Comedy time is over. I put my hand up that should be$320m. Disappointing that only reaction was “wisecracks” Oh well back to playtime.
Captain C
@Chris Johnson:
Like Putin couldn’t slip an agent into TFG’s favorite McD’s who would be able to figure out which order was the right one to poison and then do so, promptly not ever showing up again.
“Damn, we miss Boris! He was the best at making Big Macs and Quarter Pounders.”
wjca
Especially since this isn’t about whether he’s guilty. That’s already been determined. This is the penalty phase. Lots harder to appeal on Constitutional grounds there.
wjca
Brilliant!
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: No, I don’t.
Chris Johnson
@Captain C: I didn’t say he was right, I said that was what he thought. Trump is still an idiot. He just thinks he’s safe from being poisoned by his patron, if he only eats randomly selected McDs. And by definition he doesn’t have ‘his favorite’. I would bet a fairly large sum of money that he attempts to have his food come from random/unpredictable McDs and that not only is there no favorite, but he’d flip out if he thought anybody was favoring a known outlet.
Warblewarble
Very much want to see a Biden/ Harris win in 2024. It is not mutually exclusive to want to see policies that are NOT beholden to Israeli extremists.
edited to add the missing word.
Central Planning
@geg6:
Can anyone truly be a good lawyer when Trump is the client?
Warblewarble
@Warblewarble:
Warblewarble
Correction ; NOT BEHOLDEN.
Uncle Cosmo
@RevRick:
As a matter of fact, it’s not “hilarious” AT ALL. It is a rather faithful representation of the level of (dis)respect “MAGA chuds” have for governments, laws, lawyers, courts, and the legal process in general. In their opinion, “the gummint” takes their hard-earned $$$ in taxes and fees & then puts the $$$ in their own pockets or gives them away to them as don’t deserve them, while giving taxpayers nothing in return but more regulations and fees and taxes. Lawyers are parasites with hifalutin’ degrees who charge ordinary folks $$$$$ to represent them in courts that are damned and determined to take their rights and possessions away. The legal process is swimming in stupid rules and regulations that only them wif them hifalutin’ degrees can navigate (& don’t get me going about that there Latin crap) and in the end is utterly corrupt; the only justice you can get is by bribing the appropriate officials and it costs $$$$$$.
IOW the whole mishegoss is utterly unfair to the unconnected and unrich – and the only one calling it out for what it is & making a stink over it is their Mess-of-a-Siah, Cheetoh Benito. And you wonder why they follow him??!?!!??
WaterGirl
@Warblewarble: I am totally disappointed that we are still sending all of that. I figured that went without saying. Maybe a lot of others did, too.
WaterGirl
@Captain C: Putin wouldn’t care. Since he does not care about human life, he could just poison all 50 active orders.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Glad to have that confirmed. thank you
WaterGirl
@Warblewarble: If you left out a “not”, and I think you did, I am in total agreement.
WaterGirl
@Warblewarble: I took the liberty of adding your missing word.
Warblewarble
Been a long day ,this heartbroken human gets tired, even Homer(not Simpson) nods.
Manyakitty
@Bill Arnold: a googlewhack!