Bad day for American rightwing evangelical converts to Catholicism, good day for the Church. https://t.co/bSXPjcPjA0
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) November 28, 2023
I left The Chuch fifty years ago (the day after my parochial school graduation, held as part of a mandatory Mass). But it still tickles me when ‘radical traditionalists’ discover that Papa Francis actually takes the whole ‘teachings of Jesus’ part seriously. What good is a theology where they’re required to treat weirdos and perverts as members of *their* community?!?…
Per the NYTimes, of course, Burke is a modern martyr — a faithful apparatchik who spent many years steadfastly climbing the bureaucratic ladder, running a quasi-feudal barony, and finally accepting a comfy retirement where he could snipe at the kids these days ex cathedra. Heartbreaking: “Reports Say Pope Francis Is Evicting U.S. Cardinal From His Vatican Home” [unpaywalled gift link]:
Almost as soon as Pope Francis became the head of the Roman Catholic church in 2013, Raymond Burke, an American cardinal, emerged as his leading critic from within the church, becoming a de facto antipope for frustrated traditionalists who believed Francis was diluting doctrine.
Francis frequently demoted and stripped the American cleric of influence, but this month, the pope apparently finally had enough, according to one high-ranking Vatican official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Francis told a meeting of high-ranking Vatican officials that he intended to throw the cardinal out of his Vatican-subsidized apartment and deprive him of his salary as a retired cardinal.
The news of the possible eviction was first reported by the conservative Italian newspaper La Nuova Bussola Quotidiana, which is close to Cardinal Burke and recently sponsored a conference featuring the prelate criticizing a major meeting of bishops convened by Francis. The newspaper’s report comes only weeks after Francis removed another vocal conservative critic, Joseph Strickland, the bishop of Tyler, Texas, after a Vatican investigation into the governance of his diocese…
Some conservatives have attributed Francis’ disciplinary activity to the new head of the church’s office on church doctrine, the Argentine Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernández. But supporters of Francis assert that he had exercised prodigious patience with criticism over the last decade, in the interest of opening up healthy debates, but that it wore thin as the critiques became ideologically tinged and, they say, seemed intent on dividing a church headed in a direction traditionalists did not support.
Cardinal Burke has seen himself as a loyal defender of the church’s doctrinal law and papal traditions against what he has called the “confusion, error and division” caused by Francis.
In the days before a major assembly of the world’s bishops and laypeople who had gathered to discuss some of the most sensitive topics in the church, Cardinal Burke and other traditionalist prelates made public an exchange of letters with Francis. In the letters, they aired grave doubts about the legitimacy of the meeting and urged Francis to slam the door shut on proposals that they believe would erode the doctrine of the church, including the blessing of same-sex unions.
Then Cardinal Burke recently sat onstage in a Rome theater and, at a forum sponsored by La Nuova Bussola Quotidiana, inveighed against an assembly that has the “harmful goal” of reshaping the hierarchy of the church with radical, secular and modern ideas that included inclusivity of L.G.B.T.Q. people…
A favorite of Benedict XVI, Cardinal Burke, who was previously best known for denying communion to John Kerry during the politician’s 2004 presidential campaign, has clashed with Francis repeatedly, even in choice of vestments. Unlike Francis, who preferred more modest priests, Cardinal Burke occasionally wore a long train of watered silk, velvet gloves and extravagant brocades that once prompted Vatican officials to ask him to “tone it down a bit.”
On issues the two are far apart. Cardinal Burke opposed immigration as a threat to the West’s Christian values, vigorously opposed Francis’ softening on gay issues and church laws, and played in populist politics in Italy and abroad. He became a hero to the “Rad Trads,” or radical traditionalists…
Over the last decade, Cardinal Burke, 75, has expressed doubts about the pope’s grasp on church teaching and accused him of alienating church law-abiding conservatives with his inclusive stance.
A populist fan of European nationalists and former President Donald J. Trump, he rarely missed an opportunity to excoriate the pope’s politics, especially his welcoming of L.G.B.T.Q. people and immigration…
For this group of trans women in Italy, Pope Francis and his message of inclusivity are a welcome change.
And thanks to the local parish priest, these women now make monthly visits to Francis’ Wednesday general audiences, where they are given VIP seats. pic.twitter.com/jHmiXJovnh
— The Associated Press (@AP) November 21, 2023
There’s not actually a whole lot of wiggle room in the official definition…
… When the Pope (1) intends to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme authority (3) on a matter of faith and morals (4) to the whole Church, he is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called “infallible” and the teaching which he articulates is termed “irreformable”…
… but Cardinal Burke has two thousand years of sophistry and rules-lawyering behind him:
Common Cardinal Burke W pic.twitter.com/wqO5csGyJW
— Pinesap🌲✝️☦️🇻🇦 (@Pinesap3wasc) November 20, 2023
To my cynical mind, Cardinal Burke isn’t gonna do much more than keep bitching about how the world is passing him by. But the last American prelate disciplined, Bishop Joseph Strickland (formerly) of Tyler, Texas, might well attempt to use Burke as a figurehead in his future attempts to start his own private American papacy. It’ll be interesting to watch, from a safe distance, but I suspect there’s too much competition from homegrown American evangelical churches to give the ‘Catholic’ RadTrads much running room — and the global Mother Church has many generations of practice at stomping out would-be insurrections who want a piece of the very profitable action.
Go Michigan! (Open Thread)
Lyrebird
Wow. This isn’t usually a news topic I follow, but thank you so much for including that little video with the ladies visiting the Pope and being welcomed. Goosebumps.
Downpuppy
is the most weaselly way to say “fascist” even the NYT could find.
moops
Recovered Catholic here, rooting for injuries all around. Yes, even old Infallible PopeMan.
Ken
I’m not sure if the NYT reporter is unclear on what an “antipope” is, or if they’re throwing shade on the so-called “traditionalists”.
Alison Rose
Pope to Burke: FOH (but in Spanish and/or Italian and/or Latin).
Baud
I can see why he opposes drag queens.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
Your mention of home-grown American Evangelicals giving lots of competition for believers to ‘Catholic’ RadTrads reminded me of what I learned from my grandmother. Things may have changed in the decades since she died (1984), but she was a Southern Baptist, born in Virginia and transplanted to Northern California in the late 1930s, and I was in college before I realized how prejudiced she was against Catholics. Jews were OK, because Jesus had been a Jew, but Catholics were just wrong. I bet there is still a lot of prejudice against the Catholic Church, even among conservative Evangelicals.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Baud: Good one!
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan):
That confuses me. If anybody could claim to be the closest to original Christian Church from a historical POV, you’d think it’d be the Catholic Church considering how long they’ve been around. I suppose it might come down to Protestant Christians thinking Catholicism is “too far from God and Jesus’ word”
twbrandt
I’m a life-long Presbyterian, but it’s great to see that this Pope actually takes the Gospels at their word.
Gin & Tonic
What is “watered silk”?
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic:
Moire
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moire_(fabric)
Princess
Excellent. Those conservative Catholics — they’re nothing but cafeteria Catholics. ;-)
Cardinal Burke himself is no doubt responsible for the deaths of many fellow Catholics, all those he encouraged not to get vaccinated against Covid who subsequently died. So very pro-life.
Gretchen
Growing up, one of the harshest criticisms was “ he’s more Catholic than the Pope” indicating unseemly pride and hubris to be avoided. Now some of these people, including our old friend Rod Dreher, actually think they know better than the Pope. The corollary in my Irish-Catholic childhood was “WHO do you think you are?” ( meaning, you’re not all that). Burke could have used a bit more of that.
Jay
@Gin & Tonic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moire_(fabric)
Another Scott
Just about every bolded section is using the opposite words from what the guy was really doing.
I mean, a church guy who is arguing against what Jesus explicitly taught isn’t a “traditionalist” in any sensible definition.
The double-think is strong with this one…
Cheers,
Scott.
Jay
Can we haz a new Inquisition?
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Another Scott:
They’re also all just polite euphemisms for what he is: a radical religious fascist
Snarki, child of Loki
Since the pope is one of the last absolute monarchs, he could have have Burke hauled out to St. Peter’s square and burnt at the stake.
Can’t get much more “traditionalist” than that, so what would Burke be whining about?1??
BellyCat
Recovered Catholic of 40 years here. Read this earlier today and larfed heartily.
Pope Francis is undoubtedly a positive force. When priests are allowed to marry, and to be women, and he speaks out in favor of women’s right to choice about their bodies, I’ll pay more attention.
Until then, it’s just another horrible institution with too much money and influence getting only slightly less horrible for Francis’ modest efforts.
japa21
A lot of people, even Catholics, don’t understand the concept of Papal Infallibility. It has only been pronounced twice, both times in regard to teachings on Mary. However, it is in the areas of noninfallibility that Burke and others are against Francis.
In addition to his toning down the rhetoric in regards to things like transgender, LGBTQ rights, etc. he has even discussed developing a church rite for same sex couples that would fall short of an official marriage but still recognize their love for each other.
And the recent conference of bishops was specifically set up to discuss the role of women in the Church. There is even talk, which I hope succeeds, of reinstating the position of Deacon to be filled by both men and women. Men have been allowed since the 1960’s but not women. In the early Church many of the deacons, a position which preceded priests, were were positions held by both genders.
Full disclosure: I was raised mainstream Protestant (Methodist, Congregationalist, UCC) but converted to Catholicism in my 30’s. I love this Pope and am also surprised that he is still around, IYKWIMAITYD.
Andrew Abshier
I’m surprised Pope Francis let Burke go this long. You would think Burke would have gotten the hint when he was removed from his office shortly after Jorge Bergoglio became Pope France, but no.
He was Archbishop of St. Louis when I lived in the St. Louis area and I knew he was conservative, but not as reactionary as he became.
Eric NNY
God bless the damn Jesuits. If only they were more stabby towards other Catholic dickheads
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: Thanks. I read the first couple of paragraphs, which is all I’ll devote to it, but it brings to mind a funny story. About a million years ago, I had a boss who’d routinely misspell “calendar” as “calender” – the latter is an obscure but valid English word, which WordPerfect did not flag as a misspelling, so I’d always end up having to correct that for him before his stuff went out. I’ll note that FYWP, as here, flags “calender.”
Raoul Paste
The affinity for Donald Trump is a dead giveaway. Full stop
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic: It’s like “their” and “they’re” — spellcheck won’t help you.
Gin & Tonic
@BellyCat: The Eastern (Byzantine) Rite Catholics have always allowed married men to be ordained as priests, with no major conflict with Rome. I personally know quite a few, married with children. I think it’s healthy for them, the Church, and the faithful.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: How many times in the last decade have you written (and meant) “calender”?
scav
Grumpy ol’ white man complaining about martyrdom after losing his cushy retirement bennies after years of bad-mouthing the boss on larger and larger stages. Yeah, that’s true to type for the breed. Wonder if he’ll try to go full tourist on the Vatican with his less brocaded red-hatted buddies.
Bill Arnold
@Princess:
Cardinal Burke almost died of COVID himself.
Vaccine-skeptic US cardinal off ventilator after contracting Covid-19 (The Guardian, 21 Aug 2021)
Don’t know if he changed his mind after that.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
@Bill Arnold:
Doubtful. Scalise doubled down after nearly dying from gunshot wounds from a mass shooter. It really makes you wonder what’s wrong with a person’s mind who does that
brantl
@moops: old infallible PopeMan is the only decent one that I’ve seen, so far.
Percysowner
Well, if so he’s been beaten to the punch by Vatican in Exile Formed in 1990 after declaring that all the popes after Pope Pius were not duly elected and were anti-Popes. Pope Michael was elected by six laypeople. The voters included himself and his parents. Pope Michael died in 2022. Pope Michael II was installed in July 2023 after the drawing of lots. . Life truly is a rich tapestry.
Martin
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): If the US is a Christian nation (as many protestants believe) then why do Catholics look to Italy for spiritual leadership? It’s unnatural. And all those dirty immigrants are usually Catholic.
Religion in the US is shaped by politics, not the other way around, but Catholicism doesn’t really lend itself to that. But Protestants have no problem doing prosperity gospel and preaching gods love through crypto and AR-15s, like Jesus intended.
Bill Arnold
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka):
Just read a short lesswrong piece by Eliezer Yudkowsky (arguably a nutter but often interesting) launching an argument with the Jesuit tradition of doubt as a method:
The Proper Use of Doubt (LessWrong, Eliezer Yudkowsky, 6th Aug 2007)
Which includes this:
Hoppie
@brantl: John XXIII and John Paul I seemed okay, but I was never Catholic adjacent. Francis seems the be more careful about his security than JP I, tbh.
Tony G
I also walked away from the Catholic Church (and all other organized religion) when I was a teenager fifty years ago. It cracks me up to see this Medieval nonsense.
A woman from anywhere (formerly Mohagan)
@Goku (aka Amerikan Baka): yes. I’ve tried twice to give you a longer answer, but keep losing the post (i’m answering on my cellphone)
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic: 0
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
most Latinos are devoutly Catholic. that he views them as a threat reveals his real religion – white supremacy.
Kent
This is as good a place as any to tell my Catholic wedding story.
My wife is Chilean. I met her back in 2000 when I was doing a dive expedition to Chile and she was taking a year off from med school to work on cruise ships. After a short romance she followed me up to Juneau Alaska and we decided to get married. The tradition in Chile is to have separate civil and religious ceremonies, often months apart. For visa reasons we needed to do a wedding in Juneau in spring 2001 but had the big one planned back in Santiago later that summer.
Our Juneau wedding was on the boat of two close friends with only my brother tagging along. We sailed down to Taku Inlet amidst a pot of humpback whales bubble feeding on herring and had a short little ceremony celebrating with wine and smoked salmon.
My extremely Catholic and extremely upper-class Chilean mother-in-law was insisting on a big Chilean Catholic wedding later that summer around September 1 which is early spring in Chile. But you have to go to Catholic marriage school for that to happen and that would have meant spending 6 weeks in Chile as 30-somethings going through marriage school with all the 18-22 year olds. We said, not a chance so she pulled lots of strings with the arch diocese of Santiago and got permission for us to do it in Juneau after a lot of back and forth. So far so good.
We attended our first class in early June and I learned that my only real obligation was that I had to agree to a “child-friendly” family which seemed to be code for no birth control but that was never made explicit. My wife, however found out that in a dual faith marriage (I was raised Mennonite) she had to agree to raise her children Catholic. Which very much raised her hackles as she told the priest that her children were going to choose their own faith. But OK.
The day before our next scheduled marriage class we opened the evening paper (the local Juneau Empire was an evening paper back then) to see a front page photo of our local priest and to find out that he was wanted on child abuse charges from Boston where he had apparently been “recycled from”. The news was that he had possibly fled to Arizona. No one was certain.
So no marriage classes for the foreseeable future. I found it slightly hilarious and my wife who had 12 years of Catholic school plus residency at Catholic University in Chile was not so amused and had basically had it with Catholic men. One of her uncles was a leader of Opus dei in Santiago and her whole extended family is arch conservative wealthy Catholics. In any event they were shipping in a priest from Sitka to do Sunday mass but all the other stuff was on hold. My wife’s mother was freaking out and constantly on the phone with my wife who was up to her eyeballs in studying for the boards to enter a US residency program. So she was not at all interested in what kind of caterers they were going to have at the Santiago Polo Club where my mother-in-law was planning to hold the wedding reception with 100+ of their closest friends. And all the other endless details of a big wedding.
Finally my mother-in-law snapped and shouted on the phone “If you aren’t going to take this seriously, let’s just not do it” to which my wife instantly replied to huge relief “OK, let’s not, fine with us” Which actually it was since we were already legally married and that was all that mattered.
The next day my mother-in-law tried to put the whole thing back together but my wife was having none of it. We did fly down to Chile in September since we already had the tickets and I had the time off but we traveled up the coast and off to explore the Andes and wine and pisco country and only spent a couple days in Santiago for a belated small reception that my mother-in-law got to throw.
Miss Bianca
@Snarki, child of Loki: Why do I find myself smiling at this thought? Sir/ma’am/gentlebeing, you divert me against my conscience (and my stomach, cuz I’m kind of queasy when it comes to contemplating public executions).
Tony G
@Baud: The stupidest, of the many stupid things, about the Catholic Church is the fact that they expect people to accept dogma about sexuality from (allegedly) celibate men who wear expensive, elegant dresses. What an asinine institution.
Princess
@Bill Arnold: We know he didn’t change his mind because if he had, he would have publicly stated that he was wrong and urged others to be vaccinated. He didn’t, and yes, I checked.
Miss Bianca
@japa21: Just out of vulgar curiosity, why did you convert? One of my older brothers did, but that was because he was marrying a Catholic woman.
p.a.
My Italian conservaturd Catholic relatives “smear” Francis by noting that he’s a *sniff* Jesuit (i.e. liberal, I guess.) These are people for whom multiculturalism means it’s acceptable to marry Irish Catholics.
Kent
Catholicism is an urban inner-city religion in the US, especially historically.
Protestantism is a small town, suburban religion in the US.
For example, look at Catholic universities in the US. Nearly every one is an big city and inner-city school. Whereas Protestant colleges are scattered across every small town in the northeast and upper midwest and rarely found in big cities.
Even if those generalizations no longer hold true today, they are true historically and the set in course the different religious paths.
Frankensteinbeck
I can handle Francis’s attitude that if you are focusing on stuff like abortion and sex lives when there is so much poverty and injustice in the world, you are Doing It Wrong. It is very close to the essential liberal attitude that I don’t have to approve of how you live your life, because if you’re not hurting anyone else it’s none of my fucking business.
...now I try to be amused
@Gretchen: When I saw the news that a Jesuit had been elected Pope I predicted that millions more Americans would be more Catholic than the Pope.
Mike in NC
One time when I was about 18 a priest tried to talk me into attending Mass more often. I was tempted to give him a ration of shit because the Catholic church had made an alliance with the Republican Party over abortion and birth control that I found unacceptable.
FelonyGovt
As an outsider who is married to a very lapsed Catholic, I’ve actually been amazed and even annoyed at what seems to me to be great disrespect directed toward this Pope. But I guess it’s typical of the victimhood, petulance and nastiness of conservatives in general.
BellyCat
@Gin & Tonic: Interesting (and promising)!
One reasonably wonders about the wisdom of marital guidance from someone who has not only never been married, but has not had to navigate a long-term relationship (and whom may have never been intimate).
Jackie
@Bill Arnold: Hell no!
He was saved by Dog. Not by vaccinations. Not by masks or quarantining.
BellyCat
@Tony G: Good summary of my position, in all regards.
Gretchen
@Kent: good story. Thank you. We had a similar but more easily resolved marriage class story. Had to travel from Chicago to Milwaukee every weekend for a few weeks and promise to have kids at some point. We started raising them Catholic but lost steam about halfway through. Interestingly, all three girls married lapsed Catholics. One had a big Catholic wedding, one married a divorced guy whose parents were unhappy that he wouldn’t seek an annulment so they could marry in the church. The third was divorced so his folks were unhappy that they couldn’t have a Catholic wedding. All their weddings were lovely.
Gretchen
@p.a.: my Jesuit- educated dad was disappointed that I couldn’t have a Jesuit education, being a girl in the ‘70s. He maintained that they really taught you to think with their question everything attitude.
Gretchen
@…now I try to be amused: you were certainly right about that. And they have no cognitive dissonance about it whatever.
BellyCat
This is my shocked face. (Great story, BTW!)
BellyCat
@Gretchen: You missed out on Wheeling Jesuit College?
My mother was in the first graduating class (late 1950’s?).
She tittles over the N-word and voted for Trump. Goes to Catholic church every week, not to confess her sins but to have them validated.
...now I try to be amused
@Kent: Six weeks of marriage class? Yowza. My wife and I were married on an Air Force base by a chaplain. They required a marriage class, but only a single session. We and the other couple present were in their mid-twenties. The chaplain said that was unusual; most people getting married on the base were junior airmen in their late teens and had more need of the class than those with more life experience.
kindness
I was raised wasp in the NY suburbs but I was surrounded by my Catholic (& Jewish) peeps. As such the Pope wasn’t a concern of mine. I do like Francis. Especially when compared to that Nazi Youth Benedict.
japa21
@Miss Bianca: To try to keep a long astory short, the fact that my wife is Catholic had something to do with it, though I didn’t convert until we had been married around 10 years with 2 children. But it was not a conversion of convenience. I view my faith very seriously, and even attended briefly a seminary to become a UCC minister. I studied all aspects of the actual Catholic faith, not the Church. Somewhat to my surprise, the actual tenets of the faith were very much in line with my already developed belief system. Making the conversion was easy after that.
Central Planning
@Gin & Tonic:
While I haven’t used calender in the past decade, it is one of the words I learned in college at RIT’s School of Printing.
Albatrossity
Like AL. I left Catholicism behind when I left my parochial grade school, even though the nuns and priests thought I would be a good candidate for seminary and priesthood. But the notion of a schism, with a rival pope headquartered in Texas, is just delightful.
dnfree
@Gin & Tonic: I have worked in factories that had equipment called calenders. It’s a real thing,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calender
Gretchen
@Albatrossity: they thought my brother would be a good priest. He rejected the idea because of the no girls part.
randy khan
Truth be told, there’s a part of me that wonders if Francis would be bothered at all if the reactionaries left the church. They are part of the problem, not the solution.
But because he actually seems to be the kind of guy who wants to bring all the sheep into the fold and keep them there, he’s been much nicer to them than he needs to be. A lot of other Popes would have started punishing them the moment they questioned him even a little, but he’s been willing to give them all the rope they wanted. It’s funny that they’re surprised that it turns out they’ve been hanging themselves.
like a metaphor
…lock up the Tide pods, and get rid of the angular coffee table?
Adam L Silverman
They both need to be formally suspended and stripped of their priestly duties, as well of their bishoprics and in Burke’s case his cardinalcy. They can’t be unsacred, because once ordained they are priests forever, but the suspensions would prevent them from functioning as priests. They then need to be excommunicated, which would prevent any Catholic from having to do with them as doing so would extend the excommunication to those Catholics. I’m pretty sure the Vatican still has dungeons. One would be a more appropriate accommodation for Burke than his fancy apartments.
Boris Rasputin (the evil twin)
@Kent: I like the cut of your mutual jib.
wjca
And married Episcopalian priests who convert to Catholicism (unusual, but far from unheard of) are allowed to remain priests and married. Somehow, it’s not seen as a problem.
wjca
Religion, especially but probably not exclusively Christianity, really could use some Truth In Labeling. Because things like the “prosperity gospel” are flat antithetical to Jesus’ teachings. You can believe that wealth and prosperity are signs of virtue, or you can be a Christian. But not both.
Gretchen
@wjca: the married thing was mostly about keeping the wealth of the church with the church rather than paying to support a family which would inherit.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Former Catholic and unmolested former altar boy (I figure I must have been the ugly one) here and I’m glad to see this pope willing to pluck the feathers off of an unruly cardinal.
I had to laugh at his having been told to tone down his dress. Maybe he should have consulted with a few drag queens about appropriate attire…lol!
@Gin & Tonic:
I saw zhena gogolia’s reply but I thought a good answer would be a type of silk garment that they put on and then have an altar boy pee on them.
HumboldtBlue
@BellyCat:
A-fucking-men.
HumboldtBlue
@Kent:
This is why we read this blog.
Anne Laurie
The Dominican nuns who taught me in high school were very fond of saying ‘What a pity you’re not a boy — you’d make a great Jesuit.’
This was not intended as flattery of either the Jesuits or my Jesuitical arguments!
Msb
Francis appears to be the first pope since my childhood (John 23) who is a sincere follower of Jesus. No wonder that he upsets the Catholic hierarchy.
lowtechcyclist
@wjca:
To quote from the Gospel/Sermon of Leonard Bernstein’s Mass:
God made us the boss
God gave us the cross
We turned it into a sword
to spread the word of the Lord
We use his holy decrees
To do whatever we please
And it was good – YEAH!
And it was good – YEAH!
And it was God-Damned-Good!
WereBear
@lowtechcyclist: Dang! Explains why it’s not as well known!
lowtechcyclist
Too late to ETA: And as the first Epistle of John concludes, “My children, be on the watch against false gods.” Would be fun to post a sign with those words (and the cite, of course!) outside of a prosperity gospel church.
lowtechcyclist
Just yesterday evening I was quoting Deuteronomy on this topic, thinking about where Mike Johnson likely stands on it:
“The Lord your God…loves the alien who lives among you, giving him food and clothing. You too must love the alien, for you once lived as aliens in Egypt.” (Deut. 10:18-19)
But per Lenny, “we use his holy decrees / to do whatever we please.” Nothing new under the sun.
lowtechcyclist
@WereBear:
Bernstein’s Mass was pretty controversial when it was first released. I was introduced to it a few years later by my devout* Roman Catholic freshman roommate, who loved it. It’s ultimately affirming, but along the way it deals with doubt, and deals with the mess that organized Christianity has frequently turned itself into.
Anne Laurie
Or: Be not afraid to entertain strangers; for thereby some have entertained angels unaware.
(Obvious response-in-advance: Yes, I do my best to entertain y’all, strangers… )
Paul in KY
@Another Scott: A funny point is the vast majority of ‘immigrants’ (mostly illegal from South of border) ID as Catholic.
Just shows how much in thrall to GQP he was/is.
Paul in KY
@Snarki, child of Loki: Great visuals when he’s in the fire and they hold up a crucifix on a long pole to him. So traditional…
Paul in KY
@Kent: Your mother-in-law probably has a grudge against you for that. Even if she seems nice & friendly.
Daoud bin Daoud
@Jay: the Republicans are working on it enthusiastically.