The bodies of two people, who have been identified as 35-year-old Alejandro Hernandez Fuentes and 26-year-old Dorlian Ronial Castillo Cabrera, were recovered in a red pickup truck Wednesday morning from the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse site. https://t.co/nNH4BbizIg pic.twitter.com/nUJFZqt0Mr
— CBS Evening News (@CBSEveningNews) March 27, 2024
I gritted my teeth and bought a Bulwark subscription. Andrew Eggers, “What Went Wrong on Dali?”:
What do you do if a man-made disaster turns out to be nobody’s fault?…
Eight workmen were on the bridge at the time; two were rescued, and six are now presumed dead. That the attempts to recover their bodies have so far been fruitless is a grim illustration of just how nasty a logistical problem the collapsed bridge presents—a tangle of twisted metal and concrete rubble submerged in murky water 50 feet deep. They don’t even have the Dali out yet. Pinned under huge trusses from the bridge, with crew unsure whether the ship is safe to navigate even if it were free, the massive vessel could take weeks to move.
Until the channel is cleared—to say nothing of the bridge being reconstructed—the economic damage will be significant. The vast majority of the Port of Baltimore’s shipping facilities are now cut off behind the wreckage of the bridge. Much Baltimore-bound commerce can be routed through other east-coast ports, but that means extra load on already stressed supply chains; meanwhile, according to White House estimates, 8,000 Baltimore longshoremen will be sitting on their hands…
Should the ship’s mechanical failure have been foreseeable? It’s too early to say, although you can bet investigators will find out. “It’s likely that virtually every pilot in the country has experienced a power loss of some kind [but] it generally is momentary,” Clay Diamond, executive director of the American Pilots’ Association, told USA Today this week. “This was a complete blackout of all the power on the ship, so that’s unusual. Of course this happened at the worst possible location.”
That’s the bottom line here: How flatly unlucky the Dali was at every turn. The worst possible location to lose power—after the tugs that turned it out to sea had detached, but before it was safely out of the harbor. The worst possible drift once it lost power—whether due to the position of the rudder, or wind, or current—apparently compounded by the ship’s response to the crew throwing it hard astern in a desperate attempt to slow it right before the crash.
Maybe they’ll find a culprit—some human error to pinpoint, some regulatory deficiency to address. But maybe the collapse of the Key Bridge will just prove one tragic and hugely costly demonstration that shipping has risks, and keeping those risks at acceptable levels isn’t the same as getting them to zero.
The pilot of the cargo ship Dali called for help minutes before it hit a bridge in Baltimore, according to audio from the vessel’s ‘black box’ https://t.co/XNmvqqQNf2 pic.twitter.com/Kl0VJsUhia
— Reuters (@Reuters) March 28, 2024
Baltimore bridge disaster: immigrants died doing job 'others do not want to do' https://t.co/kwKik54gSb pic.twitter.com/WhUB9DboUy
— Reuters (@Reuters) March 28, 2024
… The six victims of the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse were all immigrants from Mexico and Central America, doing the kind of grueling work that many immigrants take on, when a container ship crashed into a support pillar at 1:30 a.m. EDT on Tuesday (0530 GMT) and sent them plunging into the icy Patapsco River.
Divers pulled the bodies of Alejandro Hernandez Fuentes and Dorlian Castillo from a red pickup truck 25 feet underwater the following day.
Four are missing and presumed dead: Maynor Suazo from Honduras; Jose Lopez from Guatemala; Miguel Luna from El Salvador; and another whose name has not been released. Another two workers were rescued.
The news rippled quickly through Baltimore’s Hispanic community, which has nearly doubled in size in recent years, transforming the modest rowhouse neighborhoods near the sprawling port complex. Churches held vigils for the missing workers, and advocacy groups quickly raised $98,000 for the victims’ families.
Some said they were not surprised that all of the victims were immigrants, even though they account for less than 10% of the population in Maryland’s largest city.
“One of the reasons Latinos were involved in this accident is because Latinos do the work that others do not want to do. We have to do it, because we come here for a better life. We do not come to invade the country,” said Lucia Islas, president of Comité Latino de Baltimore, a nonprofit group…
Government and industry figures show that Hispanics are over-represented in high-risk jobs: 51% of construction workers, 34% of slaughterhouse workers and 61% of landscaping workers…
(Bloomberg) — The US Department of Transportation is providing $60 million in immediate funding for emergency work following the collapse this week of Baltimore’s Francis Scott Key Bridge.
— Josh Wingrove (@josh_wingrove) March 28, 2024
This is one of THE reasons why people voluntarily migrate; because one person can lift an entire family out of extreme poverty. By coming here, his family in Honduras could run a small business and his 12 nieces and nephews could go to school instead of work.
QEPD Maynor. https://t.co/rZC6Cx4TsC pic.twitter.com/Eg2QT1nrE3
— Aaron Reichlin-Melnick (@ReichlinMelnick) March 28, 2024
(QEPD = que en paz descanse, may he/she rest in peace)
What makes this inanity infinitely more obscene is that the perished construction workers were all immigrants from Central America.
As are the majority of hard-working road crews in Baltimore. As are the parents of so many of my students.
Shut the fuck up, Maria. https://t.co/oBethp2SXR— Slava Malamud ???????? (@SlavaMalamud) March 26, 2024
Matt McIrvin
I suppose it wouldn’t have happened if there were no international trade, and Trump is hammering the economic isolationist/tariff angle as he does, making all that part of “the border”. Of course it would also wreck the economy–if you think inflation was a problem under Biden, boy howdy…
Trivia Man
My job is in supply chain and it astounds me how cheaply it can be done. I mostly work on domestic truck load for food but ive dabbled in international import/ export at times. Shout iut to the invention of container shipping. The world looks dramatically different without that efficiency.
OzarkHillbilly
Just feel the need to point out that this is not true of construction, we just do not want to do it at the lower wages many immigrants are willing to take because as noted elsewhere above, it’s far better money for their families back home.
I have to wonder at the statement Slava made above that “the majority of hard-working road crews in Baltimore” are immigrants. I don’t think he’s lying but he might just be relating his impressions. If it is in fact true, I have to wonder why?
bbleh
Yeah, it was the border. Or — another fave — it was Woke-ism, cuz, see, the feds have been spending time and money on DEI and Woke instead of fixing up this bridge better so it wouldn’t have collapsed.
Honestly Republicans aren’t even worth engaging with any more, on any level. They’re just seething bundles of grievance, ready to explode at anything and everything as long as one of their trigger-words is invoked. I suppose it’s no wonder Trump leaned into that market: they’ve gotta be the dumbest, most gullible, and most easily manipulared people on the planet.
Trivia Man
Follow up to pint out that a very large portion of that efficiency savings trickles upwards, leaving the actual work being done by human labor to absorb all of the inefficiency at THEIR expense.
The drayage at the ports is vital to the whole dance – but those drivers are among the most abused.
lowtechcyclist
Yeah, Maria, it’s linked to the border. Without what you insist on calling an ‘open border’, either some people you regard as more entitled to be here would have died, or those repairs would have gone undone.
For all practical purposes, they died in our place. Have the decency to mourn them and use some of your hefty salary to aid their families. And otherwise STFU.
TBone
On topic, highly recommended read:
heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/march-28-2024
nonrev321
20yr Merchant seaman here. Sailing on 850-950ft ships. What appears to have happened in a nutshell is loss of primary power (Main Generators). Emergency Generator started as it was supposed to. You can see this in the videos. Not as many lights came back on after the initial failure. This is because the E-Gen only carries critical load, Nav, Helm, Engine, etc. Large amount of smoke comes from stack. This indicates bad fuel or some other failure of the E-Gen such as no/low lubrication. E-Gen fails. The rest we know.
Big question is why weren’t Tugs escorting this ship as most western flagged ships would have done. (tugs can be optional and are usually requested by the captain but it saves $$$ if they don’t). One consequence we are likely to see is that Tug escorts become mandatory
Note IMO Regs require the E-Gen be started and run each month. I suspect this wasn’t being done as a bad fuel or other problems would have been discovered.
Note American and other western nation ships do this religiously – When taking bunkers (fuel) samples are rushed to labs for analysis to ensure fuel quality. Its mostly Western flagged ships that do this religiously. Ships flagged in 3rd countries not so much. Thats why you find so many ships flying a liberian flag, or a Maldive flag or other 3rd world flag. The country where a ship is flagged is responsible for ensuring all IMO requirements are met and performing inspection. Many ship owners/operators use 3rd world flags because these regulations/inspections are easy to fudge.
This is called flags of Convenience
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience
TBone
On topic (opportunity to reframe immigration): Will Bunch at The Inquirer (article gifted by Heather Cox Richardson):
inquirer.com/opinion/baltimore-bridge-collapse-immigrant-deaths-20240328.html#loaded
Trivia Man
@TBone: Thank you, that was excellent context for the immigration debate. The 1860 Republicans were very good for America and the future.
As much as i despise reagan, his immigration thoughts in this piece still ring true today. Even a Stopped clock is right twice a day.
SFAW
@lowtechcyclist:
You’re talking about a RWMF with a (figurative) bullhorn. Decency? Not in this plane of reality.
TBone
@Trivia Man: 👍
Brachiator
The bridge incident was a tragedy and and accident, and there will be an investigation. The rest is largely bullshit.
I hate Fox News and all the vile right wing scum that make up their on air “talent.”
TBone
@TBone: 🎶 everybody celebrate every day people
m.youtube.com/watch?v=YUUhDoCx8zc
Another Scott
All the internet experts saying it will take months and years to get the channel open and the port working and the bridge replaced are probably as right as they were when they were talking about COVID, but time will tell.
Anecdata – I’m reminded of one of the old renovation cycles of the Wilson Bridge decades ago. There were predictions that it would take years and traffic would be a nightmare for ages. Until some clever company bid on replacing the decking in pre-fab sections lifted out and in by a crane. It was done faster and cheaper than many expected.
I’m not saying the work in Baltimore will be quick or easy. I’m just thinking that lots and lots of smart people with lots of expertise will be working on it and thinking outside the box. People, like me, who aren’t experts should be willing to give them the space to do their jobs.
Peace and comfort to the families and all who knew them. Support to those whose jobs are affected.
Cheers,
Scott.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Brachiator: Many of my neighbors would be happier people if Fox News wasn’t available in this building.
TBone
@Dorothy A. Winsor: I wish Anonymous would hack Fux Snews.
OzarkHillbilly
@Another Scott: Your comment put me in mind of the company that replaced the collapsed bridge in MSP.
SFAW
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
America would be happier, and better off, if Fox (and their copycats) didn’t exist.
TBone
@SFAW: right on!
WaterGirl
@nonrev321: Welcome to commenting!
And thanks for sharing your expertise.
I had to manually approve your first comment, but now that I’ve done that, your comments will show up right away for everyone.
Matt McIrvin
@bbleh: Baltimore has a young Black mayor, and the racism in the efforts to somehow connect him to the disaster is as thick as concrete.
LeftCoastYankee
I wish I was surprised that there hasn’t been any media discussion over the fact the bridge was designed to withstand Panamax ship collisions, and was hit by a Post-Panamax class ship.
It would be nice to know if this bridge (or similar others) was upgraded to withstand the larger ships impact, and if that’s on the radar of the appropriate transportation agencies.
Reason eleventy-one why we need more grownups (D) in political office (and less angry toddlers (R) ).
LeftCoastYankee
@LeftCoastYankee:
and why our media sucks
Matt McIrvin
@Trivia Man: Reagan was as into bigoted dogwhistles as any Republican, but he was smart enough to know that his strident anti-Communism had a global constituency and that he could build the Republican vote by appealing to immigrants from Communist countries, as long as he wasn’t racist against them.
This is actually beyond most of today’s Republicans–they’re too wedded to bigoted hysteria. Some of them have had local successes appealing to immigrants who are already citizens (particularly in Florida–e.g. convincing people from Cuba or Venezuela that Biden is of a piece with oppressive leftists there). But they still see new immigrants from these same countries as part of some undifferentiated mass of threatening foreigners.
If refugees come from some place with an oppressive government that Republicans ideologically oppose, they see them as vectors for contagion or sinister sleeper agents instead of potential allies. And it’s actually hurting them in the long run. One of the overarching theories is that Democrats are trying to replace them with new Democratic voters. But a lot of these immigrants are people with basically conservative values who could easily be attracted to American conservatism if it weren’t so racist–keeping them out would be an own goal.
TBone
@Matt McIrvin:
Does such a place still actually exist?
Baud
@TBone:
Venezuela?
Matt McIrvin
@TBone: Oh hell yes. Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba are actually major sources of asylum-seekers right now.
matt
if only we had some way of stopping ships from coming across our sea borders.
TBone
@Baud: MAGA loves Venezuela 🙄
nacla.org/venezuelan-american-trump-voters
Baud
@TBone:
People who come here from Venezuela don’t like the current Venezuelan government because it’s a corrupt left wing government as opposed to the usual corrupt right wing government.
sixthdoctor
Baltimore Banner has an article about how to help:
thebaltimorebanner.com/community/donate-key-bridge-collapse-victims-TZUEYBSQ2BFEJL6FHPZLPK33EA/
In particular there is a fund supported by the Mayor’s Office of Immigrant Affairs:
secure.qgiv.com/for/265-mima-keybridgeemergencyresponse/
TBone
@Baud: exactly. It’s head-spinningly aaaarrrggghhh
Scout211
Lois Gossett, jr has died He was 87.
TBone
@Scout211: 😔 thanks for that link. He was one of our greats.
Ken
They’re largely the same people, having pivoted their instant expertise from immunology to bridge engineering, with side gigs in submarine rescue, New York state appellate procedures, evacuations from war zones, cryptocurrency bankruptcies, and a dozen other things over the past four years.
That’s why I like to hear from commenters like nonrev321, with actual knowledge and experience in the area. Pity the media never finds such people and amplifies their analysis….
JPL
@nonrev321: Thank you for the clear explanation. The newsies need you to explain it to them.
Baud
@Ken:
Experts don’t eat at Ohio diners.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: I think part of it is that Republicans don’t get why we would support rights for immigrants who aren’t automatically Democratic Party constituencies. They wouldn’t! “It’s the right thing to do” isn’t really on the radar.
TBone
@TBone: crap, I screwed that up royally and wasn’t quick enough to fix it. Sorry!
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
Being a Democrat means accepting the fact that people will free ride on our efforts. Being a Republican means putting one’s self interest over everything else.
Scout211
I read this morning that the cargo ship did have tugboats but they had released the ship before it reached the bridge. So it sounds like the regulations may also have to include passing through bridges before they release. But I’m just spitballing here since I don’t have any expertise.
Thank you for your expertise.
ETA:
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: Except that sometimes, they actually do seem to value being mean and toadying to the powerful over their self-interest.
Mousebumples
@nonrev321: Interesting! Thanks for sharing your insight.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin:
Being mean = enhancing one’s social status over others
Toadying to the powerful = enhancing ones self interest by not taking on the risk of fighting the powerful and losing, and hoping to garner favors.
Wapiti
@OzarkHillbilly: Agreed. I think that maybe someone (Dept of Labor?) should look at the books of the paving company to figure if these guys were getting paid wages + social security + OSHA insurance + etc., or if the contractor was skimming from the workers.
WaterGirl
@Scout211: He was a good friend to our very own Ajabu. I just dropped him a note of condolence.
OzarkHillbilly
@Wapiti: Immigrants, and especially those who are not here legally, are among the (if not THE) most vulnerable workers in this country. They are always getting ripped off.
JML
@TBone: Loved Louis Gossett Jr. Even in bad movies, he was good. Looked the same age for about 40 years. terrific working actor who kept it going right up until the end, really.
He was great in Diggstown, an underrated movie. Hope he got a new boat or something out of those Iron Eagle movies…
Baud
WaPo
UncleEbeneezer
@Trivia Man: If you want more length/depth/detail, I’m currently reading America For Americans: The History of Xenophobia in the United States, by Erika Lee, and it is really superb. I’m at the Chinese Exclusion Act portion now and it couldn’t be more timely. Especially given that everything the Nativists used to scream about the Chinese, they are now screaming about immigrants from Latin-America. And the whole “China Virus” bullshit was straight out of the 1850’s playbook. One fascinating and sad fact that I learned from the book is that America’s xenophobic approach to immigration ended up becoming the template that was adopted by many other countries throughout the world. So America played a significant role in creating the xenophobic world we see today.
Matt McIrvin
@JML: He even did great playing a science-fiction alien under heavy prosthetics in Enemy Mine.
Matt McIrvin
@UncleEbeneezer: The striking thing to me is how similar modern paranoia about human trafficking is to “white slaver” fantasies from 100 years ago, which were often about anti-Chinese bigotry. (Human trafficking is a real problem–but the way we talk about it is antithetitical to actually fighting it.)
Spanky
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
I’m assuming you’re including those who are currently addicted to it.
Matt McIrvin
…Also, if you’ve ever wondered why the United States is so particularly, fanatically insistent on performing rituals of patriotism like the Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem and treating the flag like a holy object… essentially all of that comes out of anxiety about mass immigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. People were perennially freaked out that new immigrants wouldn’t be loyal to America and needed to be trained up in it and repeatedly loyalty-tested. And those were even the quasi-progressives who didn’t just want them all kicked out.
Uncle Cosmo
I would agree that most of the folks on this blog shouldn’t try to engage with them, because they’d be unable to conceal their certainty that we’re right, they’re wrong, we’re simon-pure saintly folks and they’re the worst of the worst – an attitude that, however justified you think it is, is guaran-fucking-teed to make them dig in their heels and hate us 10x as much.
There are ways to engage those people constructively. Most involve challenging the narrative that they’ve been (or allowed themselves to be) flummoxed into accepting. Shake the foundations of their beliefs and some will start to question them.
It’s not for everyone; it takes a lot of time and patience and persuasiveness; it might rub 2-3% of those you engage with off the Trumpista bloc. But 2-3% could be the difference between a narrow loss and a narrow victory, or a narrow victory and a decisive win.
But I agree that most of the clientele here should stick to contributing what they can to good candidates and GOTV and writing postcards, and try to avoid confrontation with people they consider contemptible – it’s very unlikely to end well.
TBone
Tom Sullivan’s Friday Messaging Advice:
“Then remind him that he built jack (shit) when he was president, you “nasty” reporter.” -Tom Sullivan (bad word added by TBone)
More at link, much more:
digbysblog.net/2024/03/29/extortionist-in-chief/
hueyplong
@Uncle Cosmo: I agree with you, and avoid engagement with them on political topics because only literal death can conceal my contempt.
In my defense, they’re pretty fucking contemptible.
RandomMonster
@nonrev321: Flags of Convenience would be a great band name.
Frankensteinbeck
@Baud:
Democrats want to reduce suffering. Republicans want to control who suffers.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@Uncle Cosmo:
The late, great Steve Gilliard articulated this damn near 20 years ago. Driftglass calls it “The Gilliard Doctrine”:
driftglass.blogspot.com/2011/03/gilliard-doctrine.html
The meat of Steve’s original post:
TBone
PSA: Madame VP Harris is on The View today ( show starting now). Major theme/topic in addition: racism. Right now, they’re tearing Nikki Haley and DeathSantis new ones. Whoopi is going into major history lessons.
hueyplong
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Exactly. Let me know when you see an item about people hawking “Conservative Hunting Licenses” at some wine tasting event.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TBone:
Wait, not even in Infrastructure Week?
A story about immigrants doing the jobs others don’t want to do: We had our roof done while it was still on-and-off winter weather. Had all the usual advance steps, dumpster delivered, materials delivered, and then the day the spanish-speaking crew shows up. They refuse the job on safety grounds. Our roof is way too steep to walk around on, especially if it may be slippery.
The contractor curses about that but eventually brings in a crew of a couple of white guys. And a lift. No clambering around for these guys. They got the job done but it took weeks, and they did all sorts of weird minor collateral damage like breaking off pieces of siding, leaving nails pounded into the deck steps and my raised garden, and we’re still finding loose nails from time to time in the driveway, sometimes in a tire.
Also the lift’s tires got sunk a foot deep into our side yard when the ground got soggy.
We’ve been so jealous of all those neighbors who had immigrant crews come in and do a competent roofing job in 2 days.
TBone
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: my deep sympathy to you! We’ve had problems with shoddy work more than once! We have only white guy laborers to choose from here (the best roofers are Amish or Mennonite). Gah!
TBone
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Once upon a time, I repeatedly ripped into a long time friend who was an under cover MAGA unbeknownst to me. He was really good at his subterfuge. I let him have it about Rump’s Infrastructure Week promises all the time and then he finally EXPLODED into a spectacular meltdown that was a joy to behold 😆
Long before that: “America should invade the USA and win hearts and minds by building roads and bridges.” My Iraq War banner.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@TBone: Two other Louis Gossett Jr roles I recommend: A mysterious more-than-100-year-old survivor of the Tulsa Massacre in “Watchmen”, and an alien in an obscure little sci-fi movie called “Enemy Mine”, who is forced to befriend human soldier Dennis Quaid when they’re both shipwrecked on an uninhabited planet.
UncleEbeneezer
@Matt McIrvin: Yup. The notion that all Chinese women were prostitutes was definitely part of the justifications for the Chinese Exclusion Act and numerous State/local ordinances that specifically targeted Chinese immigrants.
TBone
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: On my ever growing list, thank you!
Baud
@Uncle Cosmo:
Agreed. I try to avoid engaging for that reason. Cathartic doesn’t mean productive.
ETA: The exception is if there’s an audience like on social media.
TBone
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: they NEVER fail to mistake my kindness for weakness. Then they Find Out! DelCo style.
TBone
I love the 3 guys fighting the ninjas so much that I had to repost in honor of our 3 guys last night:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=3GCrzjVdmSg
My old joke: planting a peach tree on my grave so everyone can eat me.
Suzanne
I will note that this country has probably been underbuilding for a long time (new and replacement buildings, infrastructure and public works, landscape and public spaces) and that has a lot of undesirable downstream effects. People are less happy, they’re less wealthy, they travel longer distances (time wasted, less safe, hard on community, more carbon emissions), they’re not as healthy.
The construction and maintenance industries right now simply would not exist without undocumented immigrants from Latin America.
Feathers
@Uncle Cosmo: This. People also forget that every fight you lose with one of these people leaves them more convinced of their beliefs. Strangers on the internet I mostly leave alone. People I know I bring up something from my own life that contradicts what they are saying. Not to win the fight, just to make them think for a moment, and maybe consider it when thinking things over later. Can’t control them, only me.
Feathers
@Suzanne: Yup. Daughter of a civil engineer. Unmaintained public infrastructure is theft.
VOR
There were tugs escorting the ship. But they departed once the ship was in the main channel, prior to the bridge. I wonder if ports will now require tug escorts until ships are well past any potential obstruction like a bridge.
trollhattan
The real crime here is spending federal money to replace a [checks notes] Interstate highway bridge.
Replacement bridge supports might well be placed atop Very Tall Abutments. Ships aren’t getting any smaller.
How’s that shipping line’s insurance looking?
Matt McIrvin
@UncleEbeneezer: And that they were hellbent on kidnapping young white women, maybe innocent girls from YOUR family, and forcing them into their prostitution rings. With all sorts of exploitation media more or less pruriently feeding into the mythology.
Jinchi
@OzarkHillbilly: I agree, Americans workers are willing to do these jobs, but they usually have more options and expect better pay.
Baud
@Suzanne: Also farming.
Right wingers don’t want to deport all the undocumented immigrants. They want to terrorize and oppress them.
Sure Lurkalot
@hueyplong:
Seems we all our reasons to avoid said engagement and mine is the few republicans I do encounter are irrational. There comes a point I feel like I’m dealing with an exhausted two year old screaming about being put down for a nap.
cmorenc
@lowtechcyclist:
Maria Bartirimo – that last name certainly suggests a lineage of ancestors already native to the US part of North America even before the Mayflower immigrants, no even the Vikings first touched North American shores, and not any of those Italian immigrants who came in the late 19th & early 20th century, who were often fiercely resented by the existing White Anglo-Saxon Protestants as dirty, a bit too swarthy-skinned and prone to criminality to be welcome here in the US of A.
Go fuck yourself you asshole, Maria.
glc
“unlucky” … “nobody’s fault”
If you cut corners long enough and systematically enough, there will be some consequences. I think even Boeing may know that now.
Not the first time this particular ship has had issues. We’ll see something of what happened, perhaps, in due course. Or quite possibly, we won’t see. But the PR team is on it.
Another Scott
@nonrev321: Thanks very much.
Welcome aboard! ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Matt McIrvin
@Baud: I think there are different groups. There are some who really do want them all deported and (perhaps willfully) do not understand the implications of that. That includes the fascists and hardcore racists who want the country ethnically cleansed, and unreflective people who just fully buy the law’n’order angle that it’s only illegal immigration they’re against (and ignore the flexible definition of “illegal” and the catch-22 that it’s all illegal if you outlaw it all). The latter position can even pull in some liberals.
The big money types, I think, understand what’s what but find it convenient to beat the drum for the rubes.
scav
Practically speaking, the extreme right interprets our silence as agreement and digs in their heels if contradicted so it doesn’t matter whatsoever what we do. Thus, follow your whim, instincts and basic nature. Ain’t no magic bullet.
Baud
@scav:
I wouldn’t say be silent if they’re in your face. But that’s different than engaging with them in an extended debate as if you respect what they have to say.
ETA: But I agree there’s no bright line rule for all situations.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Getting back to OzarkHillbilly’s salient take:
That’s a key point in such jobs made even more problematic by any ‘prevailing wage’ laws in any given state. It’s ironic that in blood red Misery, they have such laws and you can be damn sure they’re enforced.
Eighteen states have no prevailing wage laws. They are: Alabama, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, Vermont, and Virginia.
Good overview on the laws and concept from a state of CT site:
cga.ct.gov/PS96/rpt/olr/htm/96-R-0357.htm
NotMax
@Suzanne
Also too neglected or impoverished areas of eastern Europe.
Matt McIrvin
@Feathers: I don’t go looking for fights–it’s pointless. I sometimes do have conversations with people who have a lot of right-wing opinions but trust me as an authority on selected subjects. And where that touches on politics, I’ll speak my peace but be as non-judgmental as I can, try to exert a little pressure that might swing their opinions.
Sometimes it goes south. I had a Facebook argument with my cousin about global warming a while back that I don’t think led to anything constructive. He was already familiar with the conservative subculture’s pet contrarian scientists, wasn’t budging. But I did convey where I was coming from to bystanders to that conversation who might have found his position persuasive or at least food for thought.
catclub
as nonrev321 points out above, it was only an accident to the extent that failure to test the emergency generators on a ship regularly was an accident.
scav
@Baud: Extended debates are a sign of respect. The definition of “extended” is left to the whim and preference of the debater / debatee. Or just cut to the chase and get to the eye-roll. There’s no one magic trick.
yellowdog
@Wapiti: On a Federal highway they should be using trained union workers.
Daoud bin Daoud
@Matt McIrvin: Republicans never do the “right” thing, only the Reich thing.
Baud
@Matt McIrvin: I’ll admit, part of it that I’m not interested in wasting time researching why their false facts are false.
TBone
Blew their weak, sad poop right out of the water:
susiemadrak.com/2024/03/29/post-christian-christianity/
Another Scott
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
They knew.
4FeldCo.com:
:-(
Cheers,
Scott.
TBone
@Another Scott: the white guy who was here today fixing carport roof ($$$$) did an excellent job and I loved him but. Then. He had to say something about Mexicans. Facepalm.
Wapiti
@Matt McIrvin: Yeah, I have farmers in my extended family and I frame any climate change issues as questions – because I’m not a farmer so what do I know. So are yields changing? What about pests, is that going to be a problem? How quickly can farmers adapt to planting new crops as conditions change – my granddad never grew corn (dry land farming) but it’s grown in the county now – is that strictly because of the ethanol subsidies? Farmers have to take a longer view of things, so they’re thinking about it. Maybe.
Matt McIrvin
@Wapiti: Back in the early 2000s I remember having a conversation about climate change with a couple of co-workers who seemed genuinely on the fence about the subject–they’d heard a lot of contradictory things and didn’t know who to trust, but they thought of me as a Science Guy. They were a bit surprised when I just unequivocally said “oh, yeah, it’s real.” And they seemed to be influenced by that.
Riodawg
Maria Barfaroma…
way2blue
Seems one obvious correction is to have the tugs stay with the ships till they’re past the bridge. And perhaps battery backup for essential navigation functions while restarting the engines.
Geo Wilcox
@nonrev321: So the company pulled a Boeing. Cut things to the bone and let it rip. I foresee HUGE lawsuits when the comms come out that the captain knew about the electrical problems and asked for them to be fixed (company at fault) or he did not (captain at fault). Either way the deep pockets are going to get hit and hit hard.
bbleh
@Uncle Cosmo: you’re right of course that 2-3% both could make all the difference in the election outcome AND is probably the maximum number actually reachable. But I think trying to persuade them to change their minds on their fundamental beliefs (or the assumptions driving them; they rarely can even discuss factual issues beyond insisting they’re correct) is an enormous waste of time. I think at most they can be brought to the point that their disgust with Trump and MAGAism is enough to get them not to vote at all for President, but to get any to actually switch who have not already done so just seems hopeless to me. Their underlying preferences — and, importantly, bigotries — will almost always rule their choices. They want their tax cuts, they don’t approve of “welfare,” they don’t approve of women or Those People stepping too far out of line, blah blah blah. And in my experience — and I can be very reasonable indeed, giving more ground than I implicitly ask for, etc. — they will defend those beliefs unwaveringly and revert to them almost as unwaveringly, and those in turn imply never voting for a [shudder] Democrat.
Quite apart from any catharsis, motivating our own voters — and even more importantly, sympathetic non-voters — has a far better “bang for the buck.” And if a few Republicans can be persuaded in this one case that TIFG is a bridge too far, well fine, although far easier imo to do that just by expressing disgust with him than by trying to reason them out of their existing conclusions.
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: this also, too.
@Sure Lurkalot: and this.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Another Scott: Yes, I believed them that it was dangerous. I was pointing out that the contractor gave the white guys safety equipment that he didn’t bother offering to the Spanish-speaking crew. That was one of many ways he pissed me off.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Matt McIrvin: If you’re a farmer you have to be aware that your climate has changed recently even if the USDA hasn’t revised the growing zones. In 2023, the PA apples that require frosty nights to ripen, that I’m used to seeing in October, didn’t appear till late November. And I don’t think they were as sweet as they used to be either.
Brachiator
@Matt McIrvin:
Isn’t there more to it than this? The addition of “under God” to the pledge and other stuff was more an over reaction to the Communist menace of the 1940s and 1950s.
And the American experience with immigration is not unique, but it is strange. We really cannot point to a unitary founding population. The United States was formed in effect by the foundational document, the Constitution. And many of the original founders were immigrants and outcasts who became the Establishment.
And despite nativist bullshit, later immigrants were just as American as those already here.
So, rituals of patriotism. The Japanese people see themselves as a unified people and culture. Italians and French are unique. We aren’t.
ETA. I always found it interesting that the Dutch upper class of New York were here before the United States became a nation, but smoothly became part of an American upper class.
Matt McIrvin
@Brachiator: “Under God” was later, yes, but the Pledge itself was a response to immigration.
The Lee book goes into the early experience–Anglo colonist descendants worrying about later immigrants not culturally assimilating pre-dates the United States. In colonial times, it was largely the Germans they were worried about.
schrodingers_cat
@Baud: They want make them work for a pittance without any safety net or rights.
wjca
@Brachiator:
If you want to know why Faux News, etc. insist on various conspiracies, only look at this in the OP:
So, obviously not part of the Trumpist elite. Probably not even potential Republicans at all.
Soprano2
@Uncle Cosmo: Hidden Brain just did a series of podcasts about this topic. “Win Hearts, then Minds” and “Living With Our Differences” were two of them. In “Living With Our Differences” Peter Coleman, the author of “The Way Out: How to Overcome Toxic Polarization,” talks about having a conversation with his TFG-loving neighbor, and how he let the man just talk about what he believed. He said that eventually the man started to voice some doubts about the things he had thought. Coleman says you’re absolutely right, it’s really hard for dedicated partisans to listen to those they disagree with and not have it get absolutely combustible and toxic.
Paul in KY
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Great words as always from Steve. Fuck the Fucking Yankees!!!
Soprano2
@Suzanne: They estimated that my city had $75 million in unmet stormwater conveyance needs, and that was probably 10 years ago. We did several million dollars worth of rehab on our sanitary sewers in the early 2000’s because of a consent decree; now we’re on the second consent decree, which required us to spend $50 million. We’re probably one of the most advanced cities in the U.S. when it comes to sewer rehab to keep stormwater out, because we started back in the 1990’s.
Brachiator
@wjca:
RE: If you want to know why Faux News, etc. insist on various conspiracies, only look at this in the OP:
Oh, I don’t have to wonder about Fox News. I know that they spew noxious bullshit. But there was a recent piece on CNN noting how quickly conspiracy theories about the bridge incident sprang up and spread across the Internet before anything other than the briefest details had been reported. And all these theories had a right wing toxicity.
Wait. They were immigrants, maybe undocumented, but were not drug dealing dangerous criminals ejected from shithole countries?? Just people trying to take care of their families?
I’m already pissed knowing that Trump and the MAGA assholes will need to fuck over the memories of these people.
Paul in KY
@Another Scott: That’s why you nail up scab boards on roofs with 12 or more pitch.
Soprano2
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: I saw on an e-mail here a few days ago a discussion about paying prevailing wage on a rehab job; they decided to make it several smaller jobs so that the contractor didn’t have to pay prevailing wage. In this case doing it that way is legitimate, but it illustrates that there are ways to get around it.
wjca
Anyone (absolutely anyone, private sector, public sector, or elected official) who creates or signs off on a budget with “deferred maintenance” should be fired on the spot. And never hired for any job above dishwasher or highway litter remover.
Matt McIrvin
@Brachiator: I saw the news story on Facebook *immediately* getting comments about how the bridge had collapsed “exactly as it was planned”. No evidence to back this up, not even really a theory, just “obviously it was a conspiracy and you’re naive if you don’t think so”.
Brachiator
@Matt McIrvin:
Yep. But the pledge wasn’t about fear of immigration. It was promoted as a means to help immigrant children assimilate.
And Ben Franklin early on worried about the swarthy Germans not assimilating; but he soon dropped that idea. But again, early Americans were already diverse. The Dutch elite had smoothly become American and were admired and envied. That rascal Alexander Hamilton even married himself a Dutch woman.
And then there is this little historical nugget.
The United States was never purely an Anglo anything. Somehow, early on, unlike Canadians, they began to see themselves as not English. And it was ideas and documents like the Constitution that defined Americans, not just immigration status.
prostratedragon
@Matt McIrvin: Mayor Scott describes himself as the Duly-Elected Incumbent mayor of Baltimore. By the way, I thought many of those folks were all in on the work of god.
OlFroth
The conspiracy theorists are claiming that there were carefully timed explosions that actually brought the bridge down. When it was pointed out that the “explosions” were merely the bridge lights blowing out when the electrical cables powering them were severed, and that trying to coordinate an out of control ship the size of an aircraft carrier to strike a main bridge support at precisely the same moment as the “explosions” were set off is so mind blowingly ridiculous as to strain any credulity, they just accuse you of being a “sheeple.”
Martin
That’s, frankly, not possible in most cases. In addition to larger ships being heavier, they need a larger channel to accommodate them, and the maximum span of steel truss bridges isn’t that big – this was the 3rd longest steel truss bridge span in the world.
Upgrading the bridge would require narrowing the channel to make way for structures that could absorb the ships energy – it’s a catch-22. You could replace the bridge with one of a different design that has these features, but there’s no ‘upgrading’ it. Something like a suspension bridge might be able to be upgraded mainly because they have such massive spans that there’s usually a lot of space you can eat for such structures.
They built a steel truss bridge because it was cheap. They’re pretty easy to build, there isn’t a lot of material here compared to other kinds of bridges, and construction is pretty quick – lifting sections into place. Decent chance in the 1970s the choice of this bridge made the 695 possible in the first place.
I suspect there will be two lessons from this:
This decision was not made without experience since it was just 3 years after this bridge was built that a container ship took out the Sunshine Skyline bridge killing 35 people, which was replaced with a much larger cable stay bridge with massively improved collision mitigation (world class at the time). That’s really the lesson we should be taking here, but it might be a bit too on the nose, revealing that regulators approving the port expansion clearly should have known better.
Given that we’ve documented the need to upgrade/replace a few thousand bridges in the US, I’m pretty confident that it’s on the radar of transportation agencies. But the cash to pay for it is a much different matter. The truth is that a lot of this infrastructure was built knowing that future tax revenues didn’t exist to repair/replace them and we’re now paying the price of a degree of infrastructure that we’ve come to rely on but never secured the tax revenue to pay for. There’s a reason why Europe has better infrastructure and MUCH higher gas taxes, because that’s how you pay for it.
So yeah, we know, but nobody wants to pay up.
Ironcity
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: Right to Work for Peanuts states.
paujl w, chicago
@OzarkHillbilly: thank you ozark. here in chicago filling potholes is not restricted to immigrants, because the job pays a living wage to the city workers who do it. that’s the key, and too many of these construction jobs pay miserably simply because employers can often get away with hiring the undocumented at bargain basement rates. you don’t need to be anti immigrant to know that.
Geminid
Now that rescue efforts are over, the big story will be removing the bridge from the channel and from on top the Dali. A 1000 ton capacity crane is on its way from down the Chesapeake, but the bridge pieces need to be cut down to liftable segments. I expect underwater demolition specialists are coming from all over North America to help. The Navy could provide some.
Geminid
@paujl w, chicago: My guess is that we’ll find out what those men’s wages and benefits were. This story will be covered very intensively, and the working conditions will be part of it.
AM in NC
@Matt McIrvin: Yep, the bystander effect here is important, I think. You most likely aren’t going to change the dug-in MAGA, but reasonable points presented in a reasonable tone might get a person reading the conversation on social media thinking.
I also comment at FOX, using data, to try to drive a wedge between the MAGA and “normal Republican” wings. I think it works best around Ukraine and Russia.