Please let this be real.
I can’t help but wonder if the proposed date a new election in the fall might have been part of a one-two punch resulting in the change from Bibi. (We can only hope that Bibi is feeling absolutely desperate, and with good reason.)
The article said the phone call was “spurred by” the deliberate attacks that killed the 7 World Central Kitchen workers.
After U.S. ultimatum, Israel immediately promises to open new aid routes into Gaza (CBC)
Israel promised it will open new humanitarian aid routes into Gaza on Thursday, immediately after its most important international ally appeared to threaten it with an ultimatum.
“There’s been growing frustration,” with Israel’s handling of the war, White House spokesman John Kirby said Thursday.
In the coming hours and days, he said, the U.S. would look for several specific changes: new humanitarian aid crossings into Gaza, an immediate ceasefire as Israel takes new steps to protect civilians, and more movement in hostage negotiations.
This marked the first time the Biden administration has threatened publicly to use its leverage on Israel to get specific changes in Gaza, another indicator of the shifting politics of the war.
In Washington, criticism of Israel, once relegated to the fringe, has moved into the mainstream, with Biden facing particular pressure from his party’s left.
What’s less clear are the specifics of the U.S. ultimatum.
The White House had repeatedly refused to specify what it would do if unsatisfied with what it hears back from Netanyahu’s government.
“What we want to see are some real changes on the Israeli side. And if we don’t see changes from their side, there’ll have to be changes from our side,” he said.
“But I won’t preview what that could look like.”
This is absolutely horrifying. I read about it earlier, but it’s just as shocking the second time.
On a related note, Kirby declined to comment on news reports that purport to identify one of the reasons for a high number of civilian casualties in Gaza.
Israeli and British outlets this week reported on an artificial intelligence program, called Lavender, that the Israeli military has used to identify suspected Hamas operatives.
The list purportedly grew to 37,000 at one point — but was eventually scaled back — and those people were targeted for bombing, even if they were surrounded by civilians.
Military personnel rarely questioned the AI before approving strikes, according to the reports.
Monsters. The leaders in Israel have lost their humanity.
Hoping for real changes, BIG changes, immediately, not some bullshit pretense with incremental changes. I don’t think Biden would accept that if Bibi tried it.
Open thread.
FastEdD
Look, Mr. President, I love ya, man. I’ll continue to send money and support. I’ll proudly vote for ya and bug all my neighbors to vote for ya. I’m not the praying kind, but if I were I’d pray every night for your reelection. But could you please stop sending bombs to Israel? Please? That would be a good start.
Harrison Wesley
@FastEdD: Don’t hold your breath.
WaterGirl
After reading the first comments, I’m kind of sorry that I took the time to put the post together.
Is it not possible to appreciate progress?
To appreciate that something good might come out of the horrible and needless deaths of the World Central Kitchen workers? That thousands of people’s lives might be saved?
BR
@FastEdD:
I think better than saying it on this top 10000 blog one might call one’s senator and congressperson to make the same demand. I did.
Biden is a coalition leader, it’s his style. If his former colleagues in the senate start making speeches saying that the arms should stop flowing, he’ll take that as a sign. They haven’t, but with pressure they might.
Craig
Progress is good. It’s how change actually happens. Thanks for the post. You’re right. Israel’s leaders are monsters.
WaterGirl
@BR: As Barack Obama used to say “make me do it”. Create the space where it can happen.
JaySinWA
Apparently Lavender has been used to identify a large set of low level Hamas targets.
There have been varying levels of acceptable collateral damage (civilians killed) at different times, mentioned in the article. Generally much larger than in past engagements.
From 927mag.com:
Much more context at the link
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
Partnered with “The Gospel” referenced above, link mentioned by Adam in earlier posts:
https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
Jackie
@WaterGirl: For the record, I’m with you, WaterGirl.
Harrison Wesley
@WaterGirl: I’m sorry – I’m not trying to take some sort of shot at you. But this isn’t progress; it’s bullshit. The Joe-Bibi kayfabe isn’t funny and isn’t enlightening.
Origuy
I think Biden has lost patience with Israel. I’m sure what he’s saying publicly is much milder than what’s flowing through diplomatic channels. And if we stopped sending munitions to Israel today, they still would have plenty to flatten Gaza with.
Open thread, so trip report. I flew into CVG last night and stayed at the Radisson in Covington, KY. Nice hotel, round tower with rotating restaurant on the 18th floor that I didn’t get a chance to check out. This morning, I stopped at a bookstore/cafe called Roebling Books near the bridge of the same name. Recommended, you would think you were in Berkeley or Madison. Got some books for the grandnephews.
Toured the Hopewell Mounds National Historic Park in the Chillicothe area. This is the US’s newest World Heritage Site, with several locations of ceremonial sites dating back 2000 years.
Staying tonight in the General Denver Hotel, in Wilmington, OH. Built 1928, with the original elevator that requires an employee to operate. I like classic old hotels, even if they’re a little quirky. There’s a step up to go into the bathroom and I’ve tripped on it a couple of times.
Jay
@WaterGirl:
I am glad you posted this. Thank you.
Martin
Israel already isn’t implementing its own policy. There are multiple causes for this, but Sen Van Hollen has spoken out about two of them:
Let’s take for the moment that the assertions that there were a dozen UNRWA employees that participated in the Oct attack. That’s out of 13,000 employees. Under a very strict reading of Israeli policy, you probably could declare that UNRWA could no longer serve as an aid provider (under a less strict reading of US policy, Israel should have stopped receiving US aid ages ago). And I’m sure there are admisntrative rules about paying for that aid before it can be released, and I’m sure there are rules that once UNRWA has been classified as no longer being a valid aid provider that Israeli banks would stop taking their money. And under all of this, administrators could argue that they aren’t blocking aid, it’s just that the aid providers aren’t following the rules – even when the rules are impossible to follow.
These are not new concepts. They are long employed techniques of having a stated policy and having a defacto very different policy. They are used by all parties (you should see some of the shenanigans I pulled to get financial support to undocumented students) – it was all legal, but some of it probably wasn’t intended to be…
So, you get good policy when the expression of the policy and the intend of the people implementing the policy are aligned. Now, I doubt very much that the US laid out consequences here that are sufficiently strong that Bibi, Smotrich, and the settlers will all get in line. My guess is Bibi maybe is on board, but probably not the others – not the least of which because whatever consequences the US laid out are not public and likely won’t be unless and until Israel fails here. Smotrich might know them, and might not care. The settlers certainly won’t know them and certainly won’t care.
The official position of Israeli leadership is so fucking far from any genuine effort to aid the people of Gaza that I’m skeptical you can ever get a genuine policy response. Organizations have cultures, and the culture of the Israeli government has been very strongly shaped in that last few months, and the hardest thing to do in an organization is to change the culture. I really, really doubt it’s going to happen because Biden said strong words. My guess is they’re going to need to see real, direct, public consequences before anything meaningful changes.
stinger
Thank you, President Biden.
And thank you for the post, WaterGirl!
JaySinWA
@WaterGirl:
I hope that is the case, but the WCK murders is such a breach of trust that it will probably be hard to convince volunteer groups to come back.
Good on Biden for moving in a better direction in this mess. Now Israel has to come up with more than empty promises.
Martin
@WaterGirl: There’s two kinds of progress here:
We’re in the state where 1 is starting to happen, and for a lot of us, that’s a big victory. We can’t really influence the Israeli government, but we can influence ours. Having the US taking the right positions is huge.
But Israel isn’t the US and getting them there is a very different proposition. I’m increasingly optimistic the US is getting on the right path, and no more optimistic Israel is. But I’m increasingly optimistic that the international community will choose to force the matter, because I think that’s the only path remaining.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: @WaterGirl: Seconded. Some may view this as Kabuki; I view it differently. We all trust that Biden can accurately sense American public opinion on important domestic matters; I believe he can do so on important foreign policy matters too, and that his hardening position is a sign that the American public is getting fed up with Israel’s actions in this war. WG, you have it right: Israel’s leaders have lost their humanity, and they need to stop or be stopped. If Biden senses that he can do this while still saving the US from Fascism, that’s a good thing. I’m sure there’s a long road still ahead, but it’s progress.
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@Martin: nobody from UNWRA participated in the attack:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/01/unrwa-funding-pause-employees-october-7-hamas-attack-claims-no-evidence-un
I participated in as many of the ant-war protests against Bush’s Iraq war that I could, and over & over we were told, “if you object to the war against Saddam Hussein, you’re objectively supporting Saddam Hussein.”
Thats the basis on which Israel claims everyone supports Hamas.
expecting the Israeli leadership to do the right thing is like expecting Trump or Putin to do the right thing: not ever going to happen.
the only question in my mind is whether Israel can actually hold an honest, free & fair election. And I think they may have only one left.
Jackie
OT, but this made me laugh!
I want to tell Cunningham to FOAD, while thanking him for his vote 🤪
Martin
Reports are that things are getting extremely heated inside the White House – some in communication with Israel, and some staffers having hit their limit regarding the current policy trajectory.
Martin
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: I don’t rule out that there might have been an individual here and there. UN staff have been documented doing bad shit in a variety of places, so it does happen, but it’s hardly a systemic problem. Israel cut off UNWRA because Israel has embraced suffering as policy, and for no other reason.
Lyrebird
@WaterGirl:
Thanks WG for posting this glimmer of an important step! I had been hoping for something today on this front and had assumed – too late…
Chacal Charles Calthrop
@Martin: it does happen, but Israel claimed that it did here, in fact, it appears that it didn’t.
While we’re on the topic of “things that can happen,” when something likes this happens, it’s called lying.
Frankensteinbeck
@WaterGirl:
You know it’s an election year when a lot of names you don’t recognize show up in threads about Democrats doing good things to start an argument about how much Democrats suck.
SpaceUnit
In our current political moment Biden needs to reassure traditional allies that the US is reliable. The GOP has placed that in grave doubt.
But I think he’s ready to kick Bibi in the nuts. This is good.
Melancholy Jaques
@WaterGirl:
For some people, no. You see, there is this magic switch that Biden just needs to flip and presto! Israel stops killing people, Hamas stops killing people, other groups who have jumped into the fray stop killing people. Why won’t Biden flip that switch?
Raoul Paste
Thanks, WG. I think you’ve got it right
Martin
@Chacal Charles Calthrop: My argument is that it does not matter if it happened or not. It’s not material to the question of whether UNWRA should be able to operate there. So even entertaining the question only reinforces that the answer should matter. It does not.
Chet Murthy
@Melancholy Jaques:
The switch on The Green Lantern(tm)!
WaterGirl
@Martin: thanks for all of that, Martin!
I don’t know if I’m right but I get the feeling that if this doesn’t happen for real that is real has crossed Biden’s red line and they won’t like what happens then. But I suspect we will and will think it’s been a long time coming.
WaterGirl
@Martin: I think weapons to Israel stop now or in a couple of days. If these promises don’t turn out to be real. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
different-church-lady
@WaterGirl:
I’m not trying to be inflammatory here, but I’m a bit disgusted by the idea that seven aid workers connected to a quasi-celebrity is the last straw, but 30k innocent Palestinians is just a jeez-what-can-you-do?
WaterGirl
@Martin: I think maybe it’s time for every decent country to recognize the Palestinian state. I mean who the hell is Israel to declare that they can’t have one. That’ll get Bibi’s attention.
Peke Daddy
Thank you, Mr. President. Shocked Netanyahu backed down, though. Must have been some really frank talk, there.
WaterGirl
@Melancholy Jaques: the switch in fact, is the double light switch, and the second part of it makes Republicans in Congress be willing to pass legislation. Well, Bidens flipping the switch . he should flip that one also!
SpaceUnit
@Peke Daddy:
Biden projecting political and electoral confidence, Bibi not so much.
WaterGirl
@different-church-lady: I get that. But you just never know what the thing is going to be that is the trigger that lights the match.
maybe it’s that many of us could imagine ourselves, wanting to help and going over there, and and that those people were deliberately killed when there was absolutely no question that they were not Hamas, and that somehow brings it closer to home?
maybe it’s the same as feeling so terrible about the pets people had to leave behind when there was a hurricane or something like that even though we knew it Katrina, they were loaded bodies floating in the streets.
emotions aren’t logical.
gwangung
@different-church-lady: This is more of a condemnation of the rest of the country, which I very much believe this is true of.
Because killing seven aid workers lowers the political cost much more than the starvation and massacre of 30,000 Palestinians.
Quaker in a Basement
AI used for targeting? Have these people never seen a movie?
Socolofi
It’s been pretty clear to me that Bibi and a good portion of the Israeli leadership (and citizens) want a solution where Gaza is no longer viable. I imagine they believed that rooting out Hamas would make whatever percent of Gazans who aren’t anti-Israeli turn anti-Israeli (which I think is accurate) so fuck it – flatten what they can and starve the rest. And sadly I don’t think we can really stop them. Israel will say whatever so it looks like they are playing ball but really won’t.
The only way this sorta gets better is if Israel can call for an election and boot out Bibi and Likud in a convincing way. And even if that happens, Bibi’s last acts will be to scorch as much of Gaza as he can before he has to give up power.
The worse bit is I’m sure Bibi and company don’t care about being labeled a pariah or ethnic cleanser or whatever – they view Palestinians as the enemy and will do whatever to keep their people safe, and even if Israel is labeled as such, a new government will come to power and all will be forgiven. Look at Germany – they’re now best buds, but still have less than 0.05% of a Jewish population.
WaterGirl
@Peke Daddy: I’m thinking the Joe that was on the phone with Bibi was the this is a big fucking deal Joe Biden, and the Trump is a sick fuck Biden, who left no question and Bibi’s mind that he had crossed a big fat red line with Biden.
scav
Among other things, there are movements elsewhere such as the UK where
I mean, as much as nice as the all-American single-agent magic button would be, I doubt it would be enough. EU, Canada, the more the merrier.
Melancholy Jaques
@different-church-lady:
You may be disgusted, but due to many factors, including but not limited to widespread loathing of Muslims by Americans and 60 years of reporting on the Middle East from a distinctly Israeli point of view, getting Americans to care about any number of Palestinians dead or alive is a very tough climb. Most Americans don’t even care about other Americans.
Chet Murthy
@gwangung:
I’ve had recourse recently (including today) to quote a famous philosopher[1] who, when responding to the unspeakable death toll from COVID in the US, said “it is what it is”. This also (in the minds of the vast mass of Americans, 7 slain Western aid workers outweighs tens of thousands of Palestinian dead) is unspeakable, and ….. well, there are other examples too. It is what is. We’d all like for our citizenry to view all lives as equally valuable, but they don’t. They simply don’t. Heck, nor do we, really; American lives are more valuable than the lives of non-Americans. We’d just hope that the calculus isn’t nearly
aten-thousand-to-one. Sigh.[1] you may know that famous philosopher; his name is Donald John Trump.
ETA: fixed
Ohio Mom
@different-church-lady: I was reading Rick Perlstein’s Twitter and a commentator compared this to AIDS/HIV: people did not care when it was anonymous gay men dying but when they learned that Rock Hudson and Magic Johnson had it, then they began to care.
It’s a quirk of public opinion I guess, related to the observation that many deaths are a statistic but one a tragedy.
Yes, it’s disgusting.
wjca
The current leaders show no sign of having ever had any.
Jay
@Quaker in a Basement:
worse than that,
Israel relaxed the ROE. In past conflicts, 5 civilians could be “collateral damage” if the target was a high level Hamas operative.
0 civilians could be “collateral damage” if the target was a low level Hamas grunt.
The current ROE is 100 civilians can be “collateral damage” if the target is a high level Hamas operative,
30 civilians can be “collateral damage” if the target is a low level Hamas grunt.
Then, “Sapphire” was also “pattern recognition trained” on Gaza’s Civil Service being Hamas, Mayors, first responders, police, nurses, librarians, aid workers, road crews down to garbagemen. That’s how they “invented” the 37,000 number.
So between the AI and the ROE, they came up with a permissive environment in which Israel could kill up to 1.6 million Gazans, under their “rules”.
At the start of the war, there were only 860,000 Gazans,
there are now less than 820,000 Gazans, which under Israel’s ROE, each can be killed twice and a bit.
wjca
Because, in their minds, he is a monster. If they weren’t making their case on this, they would find something else. Because he isn’t perfect (i.e. doesn’t heed their every wish), and that can only mean that he is monsterous. Just like anyone else who disagrees with them in the slightest.
Some of them are merely young, and will eventually grow up. Just as their predecessors in every generation I can remember. Others have never grown up, and won’t.
WaterGirl
@wjca: Hard to argue with that.
Chet Murthy
@Jay:
Barak Ravid was interviewed on one of the big US networks, and said that he’d interviewed mid-level IDF commanders who’d said that troops were being given orders to shoot every miilitary-age Palestinian male they come across. Every one. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that that’s the definition of “low level Hamas operative”: “military-age Palestinian male”. Sigh.
WaterGirl
@Chet Murthy: Fuck.
Martin
@WaterGirl: That’s the thing that would force the issue. I don’t think cutting off aid will matter. Most of the parties here aren’t impacted by that (don’t rule out Israel kicking up dirt with Iran to create a threat environment to try and ensure that aid keeps flowing).
But Biden calling Macron to have France advance a proposal to formally recognize a Palestinian state on the 1967 border would be the kind of public action that might pose a substantial enough threat. I think that’s what it will take, tbh.
Jay
@scav:
Canada has cancelled*, (cancelled, not suspended) all military, police and “industrial” sales to Israel, and refunded our share of UNRWA funds, last week.
*if Israel want’s to buy drone cameras, APC’s, body armour, ammo, tear gas, etc they have to start from scratch and jump through all the “human rights” hoops, based on events in Gaza. Which they won’t be able to do, for a long time.
Martin
@scav: The US will never publicly be the leading nation here. Among other reasons, it wouldn’t help matters. But the US is necessary behind the scenes to have on board. Basically the US, UK, and France have to be on board with the expectation that getting Russia and China won’t be impossible, and one would take the lead and build a coalition of support behind it. Macron has already either volunteered to take the lead on this or this effort is already underway (I’m not so sure it is – it’s a big step for the US).
Having the US in front of this isn’t really helpful for anyone. But the US needs to be quietly on board.
RaflW
Saw a thread today that suggested that Mike Johnson, who really doesn’t seem well suited to the job of Speaker, may have really screwed himself and Israel by waiting so long on a Ukraine-Israel package. After this galvanizing WCK attack, any package assisting Israel is likely to be smaller, more contentious, or maybe decoupled from Ukraine entirely.
He really sucks at all this.
scav
@Martin: Absolutely. Weird world that it is, I’m sure even the Eurovision tea-leaves will be scrutinized.
Another Scott
@different-church-lady: Without aid workers, and with Israel blocking everything getting in any other way, hundreds of thousands could die. That’s why this targeted attack on WCK is a huge deal. It’s not just about a few “do goodness” including an American being somehow more valuable. It’s about Israel destroying the ability to do anything to help.
Yes, it’s been a slaughter for too many Gazans, also.
My $0.02.
Grr…,
Scott.
Chet Murthy
@Another Scott:
I can’t be the only one who is reminded of the way that Nazis purposely starved the Poles in the General Government region of Poland they had invaded and occupied: purposely restricting the calories per person below life-maintenance levels, to cause progressive death. [I’m guessing they did this elsewhere, but can’t remember specifically where, but I remember reading in either Tooze’s or Gellately’s books about the details of the plan to starve the Poles to death en masse.]
scav
and to continue with EU details
Another Scott
@Socolofi: That – Israel wanting the land and wanting to force the Gazans out – was clear to me when they announced that the population must leave Gaza City. I think that they were hoping to force Egypt to take them (by creating a crisis, especially in the south). They probably still hope that enough pressure and destruction and starvation will force people to leave the Strip.
Egypt and the US have made it clear that Israel cannot do that, but Bibi is very stubborn.
Here’s hoping that Biden and the rest of the world is finally getting Bibi’s attention.
Grr…,
Scott.
VFX Lurker
Like cicadas, but louder and more annoying.
Westyny
Thanks for this, WG. And seeing Spain and possibly other euros moving to recognize a Palestinian state gives me hope. The problem is finding Palestinian leaders. That’s partly a result of the genocide taking place. Could they emerge from the women?
VFX Lurker
Isabel WIlkerson’s Caste touched on this, but she wrote about Nazis starving Jews to death this way in concentration camps. From what I remember, the Nazis computed what each person needed per day, then fed them 200 calories less than the necessary amount.
Jay
@Westyny:
Israel had had a program of killing possible moderate Palestinian leaders in place since the 1950’s.
Chet Murthy
@VFX Lurker: Yes, in Tooze and/or Gellately’s works, I read that too. But this was a much more general regime: the Nazis did this in not just the death camps, but also in the labor camps where all manner of slaves from all over Europe were worked to death. And generally all over Poland. They did it in Poland b/c it was a way to get the foodstuffs they needed, but also to clear out Poland of the Poles, so that Germans could take over that land.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: And yet, there were moderate Palestinian leaders in the 1990s: people like Mohammed Dahlan who ran PA security services that worked hand-in-hand with Israel’s Shin Bet (domestic security — hope I got the name right) to find and deter/disarm/disable/destroy Palestinian militant attempts to wreck the Oslo Accords. Too bad the Israelis weren’t doing the same to Bibi and his filth.
FastEdD
We are a big tent and I’m out there knocking on doors and writing postcards trying to make sure we win in November. I certainly hope there is movement toward peace and that President Biden puts pressure on Bibi. It is encouraging that there might be movement in this direction. “In Washington, criticism of Israel, once relegated to the fringe, has moved into the mainstream, with Biden facing particular pressure from his party’s left.” This too is encouraging-I’m just a mainstream Democrat. I’ve had to talk down a friend or two who were furious about Gaza. Many things are important, like climate change and labor, and President Biden has been the best President of my lifetime on those. And yes, I’m calling and writing my representatives to push for change. I’m working for a Dem candidate to replace a trumper in my district.
Subsole
@FastEdD:
How do we cancel that aid without involving congress? Isn’t it stipulated by treaty? Or is this something different? I ask because I was under the impression that once Congress approves the aid, we pretty much have to send it. And considering I wouldn’t trust the current GOP-run congress to dispose of a fresh turd if you spotted them three flushes, well…
Realistically, what are our options for cutting the aid?
Subsole
@WaterGirl: I for one appreciated it.
wjca
@Subsole:
Amen.
Msb
Good news. At last.
Subsole
@Melancholy Jaques:
It really is amazing how much of the Left has embraced its inner MAGA.
Politics exists purely to punish people for disagreeing with my preferred solution – which is all too often less of a solution and more of a nebulously-arranged collection of aesthetics and emotion.
Subsole
@WaterGirl:
What sort of state? Because one run by Hamas is a flat non-starter. And not just for Israelis or Jews.
Gvg
@different-church-lady: 7 aid workers trying to save Palestinians and everyone knew it.
The problem is the Palestinians reputation is complicated and Israel has used that. Remember that Hamas started this awful mess and they are Palestinian too. I have been rather uncomfortable with so many people watching and forgetting that. That the world is finally paying attention to what has been obvious for 30year. People have been attacking Carter for saying so, I guess decades before everyone else was ready to admit it. The various Palestinian leadership has always been a serious problem for regular Palestinian rights and life. “They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity “. They kill their “own” people who disagree with them. They still want to kill all the Israelis. How are we going to get them to stop? Older people remember that.
Not that allowing Israel to continue would help. I think they are doing war like this because they don’t know how to have a real plan for a real objective. They should have reason to know this won’t work, but they seem to have run out of vision awhile back.
The aid workers have a simple reputation, all good.
Jinchi
@Subsole: Hamas only ruled in Gaza. Israel has been no better with the people of the West Bank. Netanyahu and Likud have never believed in a 2 state solution with the Palestinians, no matter who was in control. He has stated this publicly for decades now.
lowtechcyclist
@WaterGirl:
I guess what bugs me most is how the lives of those seven WCK workers are far more real to most of us, including our leaders, than the lives of tens of thousands of Palestinians living in Gaza.
I mean, I understand it, it’s how we’re wired, lives of our tribe will always carry way more weight than the lives of people outside it. And I realize that Joe Biden, as President, can’t entirely step outside that wiring, because that plays strongly into our politics. But still.
OTOH, evangelicals who claim to be ‘pro-life,’ to whom those lives matter less than the life of a newly fertilized egg – they can kindly go fuck themselves.
New Deal democrat
@WaterGirl:
I’ll add my name to the chorus that appreciates that you posted this. No issue on earth is more fraught than Israel/Palestine. The discussions here are relatively rational and restrained.
@Chet Murthy:
Agreed that this could just be kayfabe, but I suspect it is real at least on Biden’s part. He is probably aware that Israel has crossed a red line with Americans, and he now has the political space to flex muscles. This is likely also something of the acid test of the theory (sometimes voiced here) that the US doesn’t really have any leverage.
Barry
@Quaker in a Basement: “AI used for targeting? Have these people never seen a movie?”
IMHO, this is genocide whitewashed with ‘the computer said so’.
WaterGirl
@Subsole: Of course not Hamas.
Barry
@Chet Murthy: “Barak Ravid was interviewed on one of the big US networks, and said that he’d interviewed mid-level IDF commanders who’d said that troops were being given orders to shoot every miilitary-age Palestinian male they come across. Every one. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that that’s the definition of “low level Hamas operative”: “military-age Palestinian male”. Sigh.”
“If it’s dead and Vietnamese, it’s Viet Cong.”
New Deal democrat
This is from Josh Marshall last night. I think it is important coming from him:
“ The killing of seven World Central Kitchen aid workers has over the last two days triggered a wholesale shift across the U.S. political spectrum. [my emphasis] But most particularly and significantly it’s triggered a shift from the White House. Today President Biden called for an “immediate ceasefire” along with comments from other administration officials that elaborate on a broader policy shift.…
“But coming to this crossroads, which to me is a very positive development, is really all on the current government in Israel and the man who orchestrates every one of its strategies, Benjamin Netanyahu.…
“The shift, to the extent it is a shift (I will come back to that later), is entirely on the Israeli government.….
“… what they amount to is the Biden White House saying to the Israeli government: we are going to support you, but don’t make it totally impossible for us. And that is what the Israeli government has done at every single stage of this. It’s really no surprise because it is quite simply in Benjamin Netanyahu’s nature, the casual duplicity. But it is also in his interest. His personal interest. These are decisions which not only match his beliefs and ambitions. They are key for keeping his current coalition intact. Which is to say, keeping himself in power and out of prison.“
evodevo
@Ohio Mom: or the hemophiliac boy in Indiana (?) who died after receiving a contaminated blood transfusion…that REALLY brought home the risk of getting it outside of culture wars avenues…
Jinchi
That was the point Jose Andres made when he said they weren’t faceless.
All of the excuses the IDF has made regarding civilian casualties in Gaza are exposed as nonsense in this case. We know exactly who they were. Their only goal was to feed hungry people in disaster zones all around the world facing starvation. They weren’t tied to Hamas, and they weren’t caught in the crossfire.
They were deliberately targeted because the IDF thought a member of Hamas ‘might’ be traveling with them.
That confirmed every argument protesters against this war have been making from the start.
Geminid
@Subsole: The President has a lot of discretion when it comes to sending srms to Israel. We started airlifting and sea lifting arms to Israel immediately after the October 7 attack. Biden used emergency authority to bypass Congressional approval, which is what Senators Kaine and Van Hollen complained about in January.
There was no new appropriation either; the $14 billion requested in the Supplemental foreign aid bill in part pays for arms already provided. And unlike our shipments to Ukraine which the Pentagon proudly lists in detail, we know very little about our shipments to Israel. I think the plan was to lay it all out after the war was concluded, and that the war would be over by now.
So the President definitely has discretion when it comes to sending arms. He also has it when it comes to not sending arms. He’s not bypassing anyone for Ukraine, as Ukraine’s proponents here have complained.
Plus, Congress passed a law years ago that prohibits sending arms to a nation that impedes humanitarian relief, and last month (I think) the administration told Congress and told Israeli leaders that it would hold Israel to that standard. I think there may be a report to Congress due April 12, but I need to go back and look at the reporting on this, or wait for new.
Last week Defense Minister and War Cabinet member Yoav Gallant spent two days in Washington. He spoke to Lloyd Austen, his counterpart, and also to Tony Blinken and Jake Sullivan.
Publically, it was a successful meeting for Israel and a couple days after Gallant left the administration announced that Israel could buy another 50 F-35s. I think privately, Austin, Blinken and Sullivan read Gallant the Riot Act regarding Israel blocking humanitarian aid.
They also pressed him on the war’s next phase, and wanted answers about the IDF’s plan for Rafah; or rather its lack of one. Earlier, Netanyahu had vetoed a mission to Washington by War Cabinet Observer Ron Dermer and national security chief Hanegbi. The day Gallant returned the the Israelis announced the mission was back on. Biden’s people said, let’s zoom it for now, because the IDF is nowhere near prepared to invade Rafah, and anyway we already told Gallant what you folks really need to hear.
Gallant brought back the message about humanitarian aid also, and I think he took it seriously. But for almost 6 months now, Gallant and IDF Chief of Staff Herzl Halevi have been running this war with lax rules of engagement and in a spirit of veageance. As an intelligence officer told Haaretz after the WCK killings, IDF personnel “do what they want in the Strip.” So while the drone strike was not inevitable- at least I don’t think it was- it was no surprise either. That doesn’t make it any less shocking or reprehensible.
Subsole
@Jinchi:
None of that really feels like it answers my question, though. Hamas are violent, bigoted theocrats who do not acknowledge any Jews’ (or indeed, any Palestinian who disagrees with Hamas’) right to exist. How does Israel being a dick run by dicks in any way solve or excuse or obviate that problem??
I gotta ask: fellow Juicers, is there any point at which the “ikbut al yahood” crew develops some agency? Any point at all? I mean, apparently shooting up a music festival ain’t it. And all the missile and mortar attacks ain’t it. And clearly the rape dungeons and the hostages and the hiding behind civilian infrastructure ain’t it. Sitting there wailing about how their people are suffering and then rejecting ceasefire after ceasefire to prolong that suffering sure as he’ll ain’t it, either.
Is there anything at all that these people could do that would make us treat them as adults?
I mean Goddamn, it feels like everyone’s treating Hamas the same way the FTFNYT treats all those MAGA hats out in Bent Pecker County…
Subsole
@Geminid:
Thank you for the detailed response. It makes some things clearer.
Subsole
@WaterGirl:
Go look at what some of our friends on “The Left” are saying and doing, then talk to me about “of course”.
Or, to put that more diplomatically: in fraught situations such as this, I find it best to not assume everyone got the memo.
SW
These miserable fucks have descended into the depravity that murdered their grandparents.
Bill Arnold
@Quaker in a Basement:
Read the 972mag piece. Seriously. The system described is evil. e.g. they literally wait until people are detected entering their homes before attacking, leveraging the assumption that the target will be at home, and then exterminate the whole family, as a matter of policy.
The AI system as described has no notion of innocence; it is only trained on terrorist suspects, with no innocents in the training mix.
The military involved, everyone in their chain of command, and any civilian contractors involved, should themselves spend the rest of their lives in prison, IMO.
Geminid
@SW: Or, the depravity that led to US bombers burning to death scores of thousands of Japanese civilians a night during the last months of the Second World War, or led to the Japanese massacring scores of thousands of Chinese civilians in Nanking ten years before.
But some people have such deep animosity towards Israel they’ll only compare them to the infamous Nazi regime, and never compare them to ourselves.
UncleEbeneezer
This is one of the things that I think many activists/protestors and their fans don’t get, or won’t admit, imo. Diplomacy is tricky, nuanced and mostly happens behind closed doors for good reasons. Many of the things they want Biden to do involve public-facing declarations that could undermine the behind-the-scenes diplomacy efforts. Like everyone who has ever dealt with a difficult child knows that sometimes the worst thing you can do is try to reprimand them in front of everyone. As much as we all might enjoy the fantasy of Biden cutting a WWE-style wrestling promo yelling at Bibi or severing all military aid, I’m sure there are very smart people who are experts on diplomacy and the complexity of the region telling warning him why it would be a terrible idea. I wouldn’t wish a diplomacy/negotiating mess like this on my worst enemy. So much of the ongoing conversation about Gaza seems to routinely skip right past these realities of the enormous challenges. I do appreciate those here who try to bring them up but damn, so many of the loudest voices seem completely intent to pretend they don’t exist or are irrelevant, that I usually just tap out and go read something else.
WaterGirl
@Subsole: I pay almost no attention to the folks on the left that you are referring to.
Anyone who can’t separate Hamas from everyday Palestinians is either an idiot or a disingenuous asshole, and both of those are categories of people that I feel no need to pay attention to.
wjca
Part of that may have to do with the fact that, especially from a distance, it might be understandable that it’s hard to distinguish at a glance Hamas from any other Palestinians. But nobody is going to buy a suggestion that those WCK folks looked anything like possible Hamas to anybody.
Even a low-information American isn’t going to accept that.
Socolofi
@Another Scott: pretty much.
I think Bibi’s cold logic is this:
Create a huge humanitarian crisis for Gazans.
See if other countries to start to allow refugees in. It likely won’t be Egypt (as Egypt knows the game), but hope for EU or maybe even Iran or Syria.
If some countries accept the Palestinians, GREAT! They go and will never be allowed back.
If countries don’t… then they don’t care what happens to the Palestinians so it’s OK if they die.
i think the sad truth is that the answer ends up being (b) – nobody cares about Palestinians. So after some lip service on humanitarian aid, it’s back to indiscriminate killing and starvation tactics.
Dan B
@different-church-lady: We had a housemate from Gaza. The harm to Palestinians is real to us.