Promoted from the comments
I will say it in every thread because someone has to: Trump had a much worse night than Biden. It’s not an advantage to be allowed to lie unchecked when your lies make you sound like Hitler. He directly insulted blacks and Latinos, he bragged about overturning Roe, his policy positions* were uniformly poison, and he skipped questions repeatedly to rant about immigrants like a nutcase. White liberals and the media are running around screaming with their hair on fire. I’m sure MAGA loved it. Everyone else looked at Trump and recoiled in horror.
*Some people actually watch debates to find out the candidates’ policy positions. Weird, I know!
Maybe we are getting caught up in the media framing, even as we curse them regularly for putting their collective thumbs on the scales?
Open thread!
WaterGirl
PSA: We are just $249 away from $10,000 for the Worker Power Leadership School. $600 of the current Angel match is still available.
If we hit $10,000 by the stroke of midnight, another Angel will add $500 to the thermometer.
Back to the open thread.
WaterGirl
Frankensteinbeck, I so hope your take on this is correct!
Frankensteinbeck
I guess I don’t have to say it in this thread.
matt
The Democratic Party is governed by tacticians.
Kristine
@WaterGirl: in for $25
Lyrebird
@Frankensteinbeck: I guess you already did, eh?
and I don’t know how to quote from a previous thread, but I’d say this also bears repeating:
@WaterGirl:
thanks for making so many great avenues to DO STUFF. Because yes we still have STUFF TO DO!
-Ridin’ with Biden, Hopping on the Harris Train,
fired up
and ready to go!!
topclimber
General Grant is Ridin with Biden.
BenInNM
Just put in another $50
BellyCat
Watched the debate. If one hasn’t but are criticizing those that did, watch it. Solid Joe supporter here, but his initial performance was deeply concerning. Will vote for him on life support though given the alternative.
A few thoughts:
– Biden was ill (and likely on cold meds) and should have stated this fact up front to earn forgiveness in advance.
– His debate prep team needs to be replaced. Let Joe be Joe. Reciting statistics and achievements is a mug’s game — especially against a pathological liar — and not his strength. He could have and should have mocked the Orange Convict with ease.
– However, the fact that Joe listened to and followed his debate prepper’s shitty guidance is actually what concerns me the most. He truly should have known better.
I’m still ridin’ with Biden. I just want him to drive. Speculation of another candidate beating Trump is baseless hopium.
wjca
My sense was that we got into panic and hysteria mode well before there was any media framing to get caught up in. Partly, we’ve got more than our share of glass half empty types. Partly, there were a lot of trolls (here and elsewhere) vigorously fanning the flames.
And partly, there are some people who remain certain, in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, that their favorite candudate would triumph, if only they could somehow remove the candidate actual voters prefer. For them, any tiny bobble by Biden is a heaven-sent opportunity to bellow for him to step aside. No matter that there is no plausible path to victory if that happens.
Splitting Image
Exactly this. The framing is that only Democrats have agency, and the purpose of a Presidential debate is to determine whether a Democratic candidate is good enough to vote for, otherwise there is nothing to do but elect the Republican and accept what follows.
Biden had an off-night, so Trump had a free move. He used it to present himself as an unhinged loon. In the long run, this is worse than mangling a question or two.
I’ll also point out that right wing trolls don’t drop into the blog to give anybody good advice. They do it when they think you will be susceptible to bad advice. And last night they seemed virtually unanimous that Biden had to go.
Another Scott
Mr. Hotdog Beermug MountainStream is wise.
Thanks WG, angels, and everyone.
Cheers,
Scott.
Frankensteinbeck
@Another Scott:
I thank you, and the many references in my nym thank you.
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
Was it over when the new york times bombed Pearl Harbor?
Quadrillipede
Don’t agonize, organize!
comrade scotts agenda of rage
I keep putting together bits from various people to counter some of the crap that’s been posted here and elsewhere:
Democratic messaging is only a problem for *white* people. Look at how the *base* of the Dem party, ie., black folks reacted:
Fuck that bum. Go get em, Joe!
That should be everybody’s reaction. Everyfuckingbody.
The reactions to a single poor debate performance are insane. Like I told a friend, I watched the entire debate last night and saw two old men: one of them seemed like a smart guy with a cold, and the other guy seemed like a flat out lunatic. Biden sounded old. Trump sounded like Hitler. It turns out, most people don’t like Hitler.
The italicized bit is from Damien and Frankensteinbeck.
Can the Biden/Harris team do better going forward? Yeah (I’ve made WWII references to western Allied operational blunders and yet WE STILL WON THE WAR. That analogy is apt here). But any fauxgressive calling for Joe to step aside needs to STFU yesterday.
lollipopguild
The more people see trump-straight on and no filter the more it will help Biden and the Dems. Unless you are a member of his Cult he is grandpa/uncle Crazypants.
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck: I thought your hands might be cramping up from the copy and pastes. :-)
WaterGirl
@Kristine: Thank you, Kristine!
WaterGirl
@Lyrebird: Interesting quote from UncleEb.
WaterGirl
@topclimber: I love how you guys keep me on my toes with the creative ways you describe your donations. Thank you!
Mai Naem mobile
@BellyCat: it’s one fucking debate. It’s not the end of the world. Orange Lump has a lot of bad days ahead of him. That said, i do wish they would let Joe be Joe. The comms team needs to stop cocooning him. He does need to do more interviews with the media(skip the NYT.) His gaffes are often cutesy funny and they are never kkkrazy like Orange Lump’s.
Chet Murthy
WaterGirl, and Frankensteinbeck,
Thank you both for this. I feel the same way. Sure, I wish Joe had cleaned the floor with TCFG. And I’m dismayed. But not with Joe: I’m dismayed (actually enraged beyond belief) with the press. With CNN and Tapper and Bash. It’s their job (their Constitutionally-protected JOB) to help inform the citizenry of the truth, the facts, so we can make good decisions. Instead they’re taking that Constitutional protection and using it as toilet paper to wipe themselves after taking a good long shit ….. enraging.
I continue to believe that Joe is one of (if not THE) best President of my lifetime. And IDGAF about these people who want him to step aside.
WaterGirl
@BenInNM: Thanks for that!
WaterGirl
@Splitting Image:
Boy, isn’t that the truth !!?!
khead
I started to respond to an alternate version of the same comment from Frankensteinbeck last night but got sidetracked. So I am glad someone else noticed:
Almost every Trump answer had two things: A shitload of lies and some random thing from his rally speeches that would make little sense unless you are fluent in wingnut.
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: I assume that’s Frankensteinbeck, but I am missing the reference. I haven’t been able to keep up with BJ lately. What did I miss?
Jinchi
It was pretty impresssive just how many “Biden Must Resign!” articles they had ready to go immediately after the debate.
I imagine if Biden had hit it out of the park they were ready with just as many speculating on the grade of cocaine he must have been using.
B1naryS3rf
Left Coast donors are not happy
https://deadline.com/2024/06/biden-hollywood-donors-debate-fallout-1235988510/
Will they get over themselves or is this the start of the dominoes falling?
Chet Murthy
@Lyrebird:UncleEbeneezer, thank you for this!
Jacqueline Squid Onassis
@BellyCat:
Agreed. Biden is the best POTUS of any of our conscious lifetimes but his performance was disastrous. It’s not just his voice – his answer on abortion that rambled into rape and murder by an immigrant, ending that one section with, “… we beat Medicare.” He sounded awful – unable to complete a thought, rambling to irrelevancy, aphasia – and I can’t lie to myself about that.
Fortunately, nobody who pays attention cares about debate performances and this debate is so far from election day that I have to believe it won’t really matter on Election Day.
I’ll crawl over broken glass to vote for anyone who can defeat the fascists at the polls but I’ll do it naked to vote for anyone who’s also been, by far, the best President of my lifetime.
Frankensteinbeck
@Splitting Image:
Seriously. 90% of discussion of this topic acts like Trump wasn’t there.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: Frank / stein / beck
I was attempting to be amusing. You didn’t miss anything. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Tom Levenson
On Bluesky just now I saw word of Morning Consult’s post-debate poll: Biden 45, Trump 44–Biden up 1 (as in, sampling noise) over the last MC poll. I believe MC is seen as having a Republican lean.
Also on Bluesky, someone reporting on a Hispanic focus group. Uniform revulsion from Trump.
Yes, Biden had a bad night. But I agree with the OP’s quoted stuff: Trump did too, in ways that have a direct impact on key voter groups.
I, for one, plan to spend the evening (on the West Coast for me this week) untwisting my knickers.
Frankensteinbeck
@Another Scott:
I was amused!
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Well, he obviously got it because he thanked you for recognizing all the parts of his nym. I, apparently, am slow on the uptake this evening.
Maybe I’ll blame it on the sour cherry mojitos at lunchtime. :-)
WaterGirl
Hey! We’re at $10,001. Yippee!
edit: And our other Angel has added our $500 bonus!
Thank you to all the angels, and to our “bonus” angel tonight!!
Klpe
Every discussion of the debate must start with, “Trump lied about everything and refused to answer direct questions.” And then we can discuss our grief and dismay and figure out what the best strategy for beating Trump is. The best strategy may well be Biden. He had a bad day and we can’t deny the clear evidence before us — he’s old and flawed, but he is infinitely better in every way than Trump. Can he beat Trump? Not if we desert him.
different-church-lady
@Tom Levenson: Sooooo… maybe media reaction and voter reaction are two different things?
Martin
I’m leaving for France in 3 days. My instinct is to not return. I probably will anyway.
I don’t think it’s the debate as much as USSC that is really getting to me. I’m a lot more forgiving of bad politics than bad policy.
Mike E
@Jinchi: Yep, it’s all those unused “US ATTACKS SYRIA” CNN chyrons back during the Obama administration that got turned into JOE MUST GO headlines today, heh… seems like Show Your Asses is now a national holiday all of a sudden.
WaterGirl
@B1naryS3rf: We are apparently more loyal, and smarter, than they are!
WaterGirl
@Martin: Yeah, those have been gut punches. Of the lasting variety.
Have a great trip, and please come back to us. We need you.
Chet Murthy
@Martin:
3 days … so that’s Monday? By then you’ll have a good sense of whether it’s sensible to, y’know, *not return*. I have a good friend there who ended his email to me today with “I’m crossing my fingers for Sunday’s elections here in France. So scary…” I’m with him in crossing my fingers.
Another Scott
@WaterGirl: His original construction is absolutely masterful:
Frankenstein + Steinbeck.
Mine was a poor attempt at a Devo-ish deconstruction. :-)
Thanks.
And Woot! Success in the thermometer – yet again!!
Great job!
Cheers,
Scott.
Ohio Mom
I am most discouraged about Paul Krugman joining the chorus at the NYT and calling for Biden to step down.
I expected better from him (stern look).
When you step back and hear the silence from the media, it’s stunning — no one is analyzing the gush of lies and non sequiturs from Trump, that his behavior was unpresidential, how what he went on and on about ties back to his egregious presidency, and connects forward to the wish list that is Project 25. So much totally ignored material.
Old Dan and Little Ann
Just got into Newport News after an 11 hour drive. On to the Outer Banks tomorrow. I begged my wife to read BJ threads on the way here to see a vast array of opinions. She was on the ledge all night and most of the day thanks to last night. Thanks to all who are keeping the faith. Fuck trump. Also, I saw one solitary trump sign the whole drive. It was in front of some multi million dollar farm in Fauquier County.
Mike E
@B1naryS3rf: Yes. And, fuck these Deadline clowns.
Jinchi
I would not want to be in a war beside those tacticians.. Trump’s people spent the last several weeks setting up their spin to cover if their guy bombed. Dem operatives spent the day after having a public panic attack.
It didn’t occur to anyone on the Dem side to seed the idea that Biden has a top tier partner in Kamala Harris? You know, just to counter the omnipresent concerns about Biden’s age?
Splitting Image
@Another Scott:
So you’re saying you used to be angry?
pat
Just put in an additional $100 and tomorrow I will send another bunch of $$ to Biden.
mrmoshpotato
@Mike E: LOL! Well said!
WaterGirl
@Another Scott: Yes, I have always felt that Frankenstein + Steinbeck was insprired.
Also, woot (!) on reaching the $10k and getting the $500 bonus. You were confident this afternoon when I wondered if that might be a crazy goal.
Something to celebrate today.
Another Scott
@Splitting Image: yeah, after those rusty flighty things stole my red shoes (2:47).
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Klpe:
Yes! It’s not helpful when we contribute to the Republican and media narratives. Rule #1, don’t help your enemies. I count the Rs and the Media in that phrasing.
WaterGirl
@Ohio Mom: Krugman. Big disappointment.
I thought better of him.
WaterGirl
@pat: Thank you!!
B1naryS3rf
@Mike E: they serve their purposes, but I’ve often felt Hollywood was as much or more of a hindrance to Democrats as a help. Of course, they love cashing their 7 and 8 figure checks though.
Frankensteinbeck
@WaterGirl:
Krugman has a history going back to when I first heard about him (during the stimulus process) of thinking politics is simple and everything should obviously be done his way. He also loudly banged the drum of a double-dip recession that didn’t happen. I acknowledge his heart is in the right place, but he has a thorough case of punditry and my view of him is skeptical at best.
HinTN
@Martin: They have great medical care there. For anyone and everyone! Downside for me is that at this ripe old age learning French could be a challenge.
WaterGirl
@Frankensteinbeck: My view of Krugman is now skeptical, too, and that’s quite a downgrade. He earned it!
SWMBO
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: There’s always hope. Hope is just determination working toward a common goal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw8te6EiIlY&t=1111s
We were fighting Nazis then too.
WaterGirl
So pleased to see the thermometer where it is. Thanks, everybody! This is inspiring.
Our angel match will continue through the night, and I’ll check back for donations in the morning.
Super tired, heading for bed!
Citizen Alan
@Martin: Agreed. It just astounds me that the current supreme court believes that the government has the power to completely regulate a woman’s reproductive decisions but no power whatsoever to stop corporations from poisoning the nation’s water supply
Citizen Alan
Double post.
WaterGirl
@Citizen Alan: That is totally worthy of being posted twice! Three times, even.
westyny
Morning Consult Poll:
https://x.com/madrid_mike/status/1806837615074951607?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1806837615074951607%7Ctwgr%5E33b62af5c6aaa85db8c8ab4152e95f8bc9d905fc%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com%2Fstories%2F2024%2F6%2F28%2F2249337%2F-President-Joe-Biden-Day-1254-Fourth-Year-Day-149-Evening-Shade-Friday
Omnes Omnibus
Inspirational music from Chumbawumba (not Tubthumping).
kalakal
I have no time for people who think Biden should step aside because of one debate not going well, the idea is beyond idiotic.
As I said this morning
scarcelight
@westyny: Now wait a gosh darn minute. That can’t possibly be. I have been assured many times today that Biden is DEAD, and the race is OVER.
Martin
@Citizen Alan: The government certainly has the power – it’s just not Congress and the executive, all of that power now lies with USSC.
NotMax
@WaterGirl
♬ Congratulations.
(Dancing not his strong suit.) ;)
Another Scott
@Frankensteinbeck: Krugman is very good at explaining economics. Masterful, even (though his graphs without axis labels and tic marks used to drive me nuts).
But he was frequently wrong about politics back in the Obama days (I haven’t read him much since FTFNYT put him behind a paywall). Progress that was possible politically in those days almost never was limited by Obama; rather it was the people dragging us back into the crab bucket who had control over choke points in legislation, etc.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
SWMBO
I’m Ridin’ With Biden! So is this guy:
https://www.tiktok.com/@al.r894/video/7385751041092046126?q=2rawtooreal&t=1719632566510
Tom Levenson
@different-church-lady: Just might be. Whodathunkit?
Another Scott
@Omnes Omnibus: 👍
Cheers,
Scott.
Ohio Mom
@Frankensteinbeck: I’ve never held Krugman’s bad predictions against him because economic forecasting is a mug’s game, no matter how much economists want to call their field a “science.”
But I see what you mean about him having a bad case of punditry. As they say, harsh but fair.
sab
Martin Mull died on my husband’s birthday this year. That sucks.
YY_Sima Qian
Unfortunately, I suspect that a slight majority of American voters either don’t care that Trump is a congenital lier, or are too low information to know that he is. Trump is a know entity now, his severe flaws have been transparent since the 2016 campaign. As I said in another thread, I think the way to defeat Trump is to emasculate him in the eyes of his supporters.
I think the far more damaging event yesterday was the Chevron decision by the SCOTUS, which neutered the federal agencies’ ability to hold breakers of regulations & laws accountable, except via the time & resource intensive litigation, which the federal agencies are not staffed to do, & making federal judges (& juries) the final arbiters for enforcement, many of whom are themselves Fascist & reactionary.
Urza
@WaterGirl: How does the angel matching work? One of the commenters just offers to do matches?
Frankensteinbeck
Bedtime for me. Thank you for this post, WaterGirl. I hope together we’ve talked a lot of people off a cliff and made them realize they were only looking at half the story.
Ishiyama
There is a lesson here for how to debate against someone who is using Trump’s rhetorical style. Don’t try to rebut his words, or contradict his arguments. Use your speaking time to plaster him with every pejorative descriptor that you can fit in. Whatever the question, turn it into a description of Trump’s faults and failings. And do it with snark, if possible – no apologies.
Torrey
Haven’t watched the debate, but I have caught a bit of some of the Dem spokespersons. Those like Claire Mccaskill and David Plouffe, who are talking about what they’re hearing from other Democrats, seem to be focused primarily not on the debate itself but on presenting themselves as Very Important and Knowledgeable People Who Have Their Finger on the Pulse and Know Other Very, Very Important People, whose thoughts they will now tell you about with great concern in their voices. In other words, their responses seem to be more about how connected they are than about what actually happened. What they’re reporting (term used loosely) are all about emotions and hot takes–worth nothing at this point, but it does make them look like they have connections. Also, they get to emote about their concern, rather like a bit player milking a death scene.
Is anyone surprised that Pete Buttigieg does a good job of focusing on the important points? Worth watching as a palate-cleanser, although interviewer Chris Jansing is busy being desperate. And silly.
NotMax
@sab
There’s been nothing quite like Fernwood 2 Night. He and Fred Willard played off one another like champs.
Odie Hugh Manatee
I have no fucking idea how an honest person is supposed to debate a gish-galloping pathological liar. The honest person is constrained by the truth and the pathological liar is not. It’s like a boxing match where one opponent has his arms tied behind their back and their legs in shackles. If I were the Prez I would have stated that it was beneath the office of the President to debate a convicted felon who is a known pathological liar.
Debating that felon only serves to seemingly legitimize him. Stop it, call him and his MAGA party out for the monsters they are and leave them to stew and bitch that they are not being legitimized by the President.
YY_Sima Qian
@Martin: Are you sure France under Le Pen would be much better?
Then again, I would definitely prefer living in the PRC under Xi than the U.S. under Trump & the Rs, but that is because I am ethnically Han Chinese & not an anti-CPC activist.
Origuy
RIP Martin Mull, 80.
sab beat me to it. I loved him in Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman.
Chet Murthy
@Ishiyama:
Honestly, I’m surprised that this wasn’t chapter-and-verse Biden’s strategy going into the debate. I mean, this follows directly from Brandolini’s Law (“The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than that needed to produce it.”) You can’t refute that stream of shit; all you can do is impeach the speaker.
NotMax
@Origuy
See #84 above for a dose of dry humor.
:)
gene108
@Ohio Mom:
Trump is the result of white people losing their damned minds over President Obama being elected. Whatever shared sense of common values people had got jettisoned during those eight years.
Trump defied all existing logic and reason to eke out a win in 2016. The media’s never figured out how to handle someone with all his baggage that never loses much support among his voters, and even while out of office has a stranglehold over the Republican Party.
I think they’ve decided the new normal in Republican politics shouldn’t be questioned on whether it’s morally right or wrong or good for the country. Republicans love a convicted felon as their candidate, and to question if this is good or bad screws up their view from nowhere reporting.
Captain C
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
“Oh, wow, that was just another typical load of crap from the convicted felon over there. Anyway…[Insert succinct answer/whatever]
ETA: Also what @Ishiyama: said at #82
NotMax
@Captain C
“Newsflash, Donald. I won, you lost. And you’re going to lose again this time around.”
kalakal
As a heads up we now have Tropical Storm Beryl, projected to be be a hurricane when it hits the Windward Islands Sunday/Monday and quite possibly a major hurricane shortly after. For what the projections are worth at this early stage it will reach Jamaica around Weds and Yucatan a day or so later
divF
@NotMax: I am a fan of his more obscure work. His first album has a bunch of low-key, funny and tuneful songs. And his work on Mike Nesmith’s Television Parts, like the sketch where he talks about various hazards around the home, as they become more and more disastrous.
Captain C
@NotMax: How about, “Donnie, several lawyers including Rudy Giuliani lost their licenses, got disbarred pushing your lies in court. And you stiffed them on the bill!”
mrmoshpotato
@gene108:
Let’s not forget that Newt Gingrich has been a shit-talking Rethuglican since at least the 90’s – and also Fox News.
Martin
@YY_Sima Qian: Haven’t thought that far ahead. All I know is I’ll not be here, and in this moment I don’t want to be here.
Sister Golden Bear
@YY_Sima Qian:
Dems should use that as a reason to vastly expand the judiciary, including the SCOTUS, since they’ll be spending all time and effort to do what the regulator agencies used to do.
Plus mandating that judges get additional training to develop technical expertise about various industries, e.g. energy, tech, ag, etc. Both because there’s gonna be a huge need for this, but it also will weed out at least some of the MAGA judges.
George
Has anyone considered the very real possibility that it wasn’t Joe Biden who debated Trump, but rather actor James Woods who has been portraying Joe Biden for the past few years? Because that is what hardcore MAGAts believe.
Anoniminous
@YY_Sima Qian:
National Rally is running a no euphemisms, no dog whistles, in-your-face racist White Supremacy campaign. They are predicted to win the First Round of voting on June 30th. What that means for the second round on July 7th is anybody’s guess.
Speaking of France and the PRC under Xi … how’s your singing?
Chet Murthy
@Sister Golden Bear:
If this is going to happen, I think we need to also institute methods/procedures for sanctioning judges that run amok. Lifetime tenure + industry-specific experience can produce some pretty perverse outcomes, much worse than the already-pretty-bad revolving door between regulators and regulated.
I’m not saying you’re wrong: just that, well, the corruption goes deep. Really deep.
I remember back in the early noughties, when all that crony capitalism was happening in (e.g.) Indonesia, and people in the MSM were patting themselves (and American business) on the back, for our transparency, probity, and all-around wonderful markets. And then Enron happened. Nobody saw the contradiction there.
wjca
Not surprising. After all, Biden beat their guy once (which they know in their heart of hearts), and is likely to do so again. Getting Biden out is the best hope they’ve got.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Someone needs to get the ball rolling on changing the name of the Supreme Court to the Imperial Court now that they have decided that they are the ones who will interpret the enforcement of all regulations.
Chet Murthy
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Could I suggest old-skool ? “Guardian Council” (from Iran) has a nice ring to it!
piratedan
@Odie Hugh Manatee: they are such chickenshits, they’d probably outsource these cases to the heinous 5th circuit.
While I agree that if Biden is re-elected, there WILL be a SCOTUS showdown of some kind, with whatever even-handed attempt to restore balance being deemed unconstitutional who are in the process of doing their own coup.
Gloria DryGarden
@Lyrebird: thank you for reposting uncle Ebenezer’s post. It stood out to me too.
If people of color are all in for Joe Biden, that double confirms that he’s the guy to run in this election. It’s enough for me. If most of the undecided latino voters are deciding for Biden, I’m encouraged.
I’m thinking about how authoritarians peddle despair as part of their plan to win. It hurts to read people who are probably Dems and are against Trumplet and all he’s trying to set up, tear down a good competent candidate who has helpful, inclusive policies, has a lot of people’s backs, and has created a team of excellent advisors and experts.
I’d like all the Debbie downers to quit trying to tear people’s confidence down, quit pushing negative beliefs, unless you come up with some viable alternative plan, and constructive ideas.
I’m grateful to everyone on the earlier thread who wrote to say why Biden is viable and competent, and Can win.
Biden is not perfect. As someone else said, to speak on your feet about policy, while sick with a cold, and while a bully is blustering lies and charismatic bullshit rants at you, and while finding words that get around a stutter, is an admirable level of multitasking.
(Stopping for a birdsong I’ve not heard before, beautiful,10:30 pm MTn, quiet, for a moment no fireworks, no pounding loud Venezuelan music pouring from car stereos)
I’d like to see a list of all the news groups that are being divisive, or are supposedly Democrat leaning, but are rooting for Joe to step down. Id like that list where I can see it, and then somehow bunches of us use our influence to lower their ratings, refuse to click, refuse their advertisers, and make our friends aware of these weak news sources. Am I going too big? Maybe I need a list of the best useful places to get news, where coalitions are being build, and suggestions are constructive.
People CAN see past a poor communication event, and see all the good outcomes, see all the times Joe does communicate well and strongly. I want to encourage any press source that give appropriate balance to show what is good about president Biden. I really don’t care if he’s older and slower. He knows what’s going on, he cares, and he isn’t try to tear everyone down.
It’s too bad there are those who prefer popularity, and hot charisma and tv showmen, and shows of alpha male strength such as Putin’s pecs on horseback and other power brandishments..
It’s ok if hardly anyone looks good in a barely moderated debate against a very pushy bully. I’ve argued w bullies and not once gotten a chink of my own pov accepted. They live to crush others. Are we gonna let them crush us into serious doubts, and undermine us?
The qualities I’m rooting for: truth telling, body sovereignty for all, fair voting rights for all, a chance for all the people to pursue livelihood , happiness, health, clean safe environment, sustainable food chain. Safety in living and freedom of speech. I’ll think about it some more, since it was my question on an earlier thread.
I’m going to write some stuff down on paper, to burn with herbs: lies, false information…harming others on purpose, vengefulness.
I’ll think of some more things. It’s not voodoo dolls, I think it’s safe to release a bunch of divisive hurtful qualities via burnt words on paper. The moon is waning isn’t it?
Martin
@Anoniminous: I’ll be in Paris on the 7th. Should be interesting.
Gloria DryGarden
@wjca: there ya go!
(JFC!)
wjca
Real Joe Biden or an actor — either way, he beats them in elections and gets stuff done while in office. :-)
Short story shorter: we can’t beat the politician. So we’ll pretend that we can’t even beat an actor portraying the politician. And that’s better because….
Martin
@Sister Golden Bear: There’s a grand total of 2000 federal judges. Just to put that in context, Exxon has more lawyers.
The hundreds of thousands of agency domain experts were already being styled on by the pace at which corporations could enter a market and bleed it dry before the feds could even show up to assess what was going on. That’s why late stage capitalism happens – it’s a differential of speed. There is no universe in which you can build out the judiciary to sufficient scale to respond to this.
The one sort of bright spot here is that with the agencies being stripped of their discretion, there will be no holding back against regulatory violators. That’s how they fight. And that’s from the IRS out. They are going to make the federal courts earn every goddamn inch of ground on this.
My guess too is that the blue states pull out their regulatory shopping list and go all out as well. Let 1000 gun control laws bloom.
Gloria DryGarden
@WaterGirl: thank you for this post, this thread.
Deep breath of gladness.
Rose Weiss
@Torrey: Pete is a great spokesperson. He always does so well in explaining even complicated issues. Also. honestly, as a young attractive man, he’s currently a great surrogate to do media interviews. I’ve never seen him lose his cool or be flummoxed in the slightest.
Also, added 25 to the latest kitty.
Gloria DryGarden
@wjca:
Amen
wjca
A fun start would be: “In deference to the Founders’ original intent in the 2nd Amendment, we place absolutely no restrictions on muzzle loading flintlocks. Muskets or pistols. But for all other types of firearms….”
Shove their damned originalism down their throats.
YY_Sima Qian
@Anoniminous: In the last few years there has definitely been a concerted attempt by the CPC propaganda department to make the Internationale hip for the younger generations.
Villago Delenda Est
I’ve been ignoring the media framing all day. It’s bullshit, their billionaire paymasters want more tax cuts, they want more clicks, and they’re too lazy to abandon the horse race narrative. Fuck them all with Steve Bannon’s dick.
Villago Delenda Est
@topclimber: So is General Sherman. Burn down CNN HQ in Atlanta.
SomeRandomGuy
I’m so glad you asked. The answer is, “of course you are. Trump said a lot of hideous shit. Call it out.”
Death Panel Truck
Black women are the backbone of the Democratic Party. This old white guy will follow their lead.
gwangung
Disappointed in THIS blog. Caught up in mass media framing. Caught up in the pundits’ reactions.
TOTALLY IGNORING WHAT ACTUAL VOTERS THINK.
Very little talk about the right wring focus group of undecideds that SHRANK from Trump. Very little talk about the Univision poll of undecideds that came out against Trump decisively. Only some talk about Black Democrats still lining up behind Biden.
THESE ARE THE ACTUAL VOTERS, NOT THE PEOPLE PAID TO TALK ABOUT ACTUAL VOTERS.
Seems way too much navel gazing like Nate Silver and Ezra Klein and not enough observation of normal people.
Gretchen
I was disappointed in Biden’s performance last night. He looked old and his stutter got the better of him. But I was furious that the moderators just let Trump lie, lie, lie, and not even bother to answer the questions. What’s your solution for affordable childcare? Blather blather. Nobody noted that he didn’t answer. They just moved on.
I have no patience for the folks clamoring for a new nominee. I loved Cole’s analogy of the underpants gnome theory of politics. New nominee-????-victory!
They never have a name for this magic nominee who will unite the party, but it’s obvious it’s not Harris. The racists who lost their minds over Obama and the misogynists who lost their minds over Hillary aren’t going for someone who is both black and a woman. But dumping her as if she’s not even worthy of consideration in favor of random white guy is going to infuriate the black people and women who put Biden in the White House in the first place. They never tell us who this magic white guy is who is going to unite the black people and women who are the Democratic base, just that having a shovel fight over who it should be will be the best way to spend the four months before the election.
Gloria DryGarden
@Gretchen: thank you! I quite agree.
@gwangung: thank you. This pov heartens me.
imma burn all Debbie downer messages in my little fire tomorrow
Nicholas Gibbs
Case in point:
https://x.com/realMABarreto/status/1806527153388834916
Chet Murthy
@Gretchen:
I’m so old, I remember in 2020, -Biden- was the nominee who could unite the party, and Rep. James Clyburn is the one who told us so — told us that he was the one that Black voters would rally behind — and was of course white, so he’d be acceptable to white people.
Jay
https://nitter.poast.org/Matt_VanDyke/status/1806757014913126648#m
Hot takes are over, now comes the FAFO.
Chet Murthy
@Jay: That fucking traitor. Fucking. Traitor.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
The debate was like the Pandemic; nature gave Trump the chance he didn’t deserve and Trump, Trumped himself with his mushroom shape Trump in his big fat Trump bigly, for 90 minutes. All Trump needed to do was read prepared policy statements in a dull tone of voice over and again and he would have won, instead he spent 90 minutes of sharing his Head Canon Amerika dystopia Fan Fiction were Marty Stue Trump saves an ungrateful nation with the power of golf.
coin operated
@Martin:
I always look forward to your comments on stuff. Wondering if you could expound on this a bit more. Everyone else on the planet is saying that ditching Chevron is bad but you managed to find a bright spot. Are you saying that the regulatory agencies are about to go full “hold my beer…” on these corporate assholes?
Chet Murthy
@coin operated: Gotta admit, I don’t follow Martin’s reasoning there. From where I sit, the regulators don’t slam miscreant corps’ faces with the telephone book for two reasons: (1) regulatory capture, and (2) corps have phalanxes of lawyers. I don’t see how any of that changes just b/c of Chevron deference going away, and even if Congress did the enormous (and absolutely unimaginable) job of writing laws to cover everything that regulations cover today. I just don’t see how that’ll change those two motivations for “settlement that does not admit guilt” and other bullshit.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
That’s wining the debate, not wining the election.
If Biden had done that he would have turned off the undecideds. What everyone saw last night was their crazy uncle screaming crazy shit at the grandad they love. We want that, not “two angry old white guys act like assholes for 90 minutes”
Eyes on the prize.
Jay
@coin operated:
Basically, every Federal Court will be getting 1,000, Corporate suits a week, trying to gut Federal Regulations. The system will be swamped, filings will be accepted, but rulings and hearings will take decades.
Federal Agencies will have to spend a fortune, defending regulations,
but the regulations will hold, until the Court case will be decided.
It’s a careful what you wish for, scenario.
Eg. Did two reno’s on two properties for a lawyer. They declined to pay the bill, “demanded” arbitration. I filed a builders lien. Full cost, and here, I am allowed to charge 36% interest a year on the owed amount. Lien is registered against title, and comes 2nd after any mortage. Bank’s always come first.
15 years later, they tried to sell the properties, ( and did).
Between the Banks and my liens, they netted $0 dollars from the sales, and the balance of my liens became “personal debts”.
They tried to pull a “power move”, and fiscally screwed themselves and their estate for life.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Even better cite George the III of the United Kingdom as justification for firearms confiscation because he was the legal head of state in what became the US in 1775. Suck on that Alto.
Baud
@Anoniminous:
Why are there two rounds of voting for a parliamentary election based on proportional representation?
NotMax
@Enhanced Voting Techniques
Give the ones who claim to be originalists a horse with which to ride the circuit.
Martin
@coin operated: Oh no, it’s unquestionably bad. The approach by agencies is going to be some combinatory of fury and desperation.
If the courts were required to actually rule on these matters you could employ a flood the zone approach and simply break the federal government – that’s how dumb this shit it. But the courts have the power to choose and they’ll use that to select only the stuff they care about, and let the rest fester. Congress could provide clarification, but Congress won’t move until either one party gets their filibuster proof majority in a full sweep or we resolve this little civil war once and for all.
I haven’t been able to move past how much more efficient 2nd amendment remedies would be here to resolve this to form what I think the approach should be. My next immediate thought is for the IRS to audit Justice Thomas to see if he paid taxes on those undeclared gifts and charge him with felony evasion if not. Let’s test this new system starting from the top.
NotMax
@Baud
France goes in, France goes out. No one can explain it.
//
WereBear
Last election, smart people picked Joe Biden and he proved they were right. I’m sticking with age and cunning.
Chet Murthy
@Martin: Ha! I had two thoughts:
Yeah, I also want a pony.
NotMax
@Martin
When France knew how to celebrate the Fourth of July.
;)
Baud
@Splitting Image:
Also, abused spouse syndrome. It’s our fault we’re not perfect, and our imperfections are the only thing that matters.
Martin
@Chet Murthy: So, what’s often underestimated is that administrative power structures form in places where you don’t expect. There are always informal checks on authority and power even within these structures. Until today, agencies had a degree of autonomy and utility. That autonomy was part of how the regulatory capture operated, but the need to protect your own institutional authority is very strong. Even the lowest level administrative staffers wield way more power than people realize – and they’re not the ones captured.
And that’s what I’m referring to here. Political appointees have one way to fight in such a system, but civil servants have their own as well and that’s what I’m expecting we’re going to see brought to bear here. You don’t strip me of authority, especially when I’m a domain expert, and not get punched pretty goddamn hard in return. Their best tool is to draw blood against the parties that the court is trying to protect here.
Martin
@Chet Murthy: Those both sound like ambiguities in the law that only the courts can resolve. We’re just lowly auditors.
Baud
The thing with Chevron being gone is that if judges don’t have to defer to agencies, it becomes more important than ever to have Democratically appointment judges in the courts. The Supreme Court will still do damage, but they can only hear a few cases. The lower courts are where most final decisions are made.
Baud
@Baud:
Appointment= appointed
Martin
@NotMax: I’ll be at the Normandy American Cemetery on the 4th.
None of my relatives are there. One (a medic) landed and got out in one piece, and yet not. Two others landed shortly after. One left a leg somewhere near Bastogne. I remember as a kid he’d tell me knock-knock jokes and I’d have to knock on his leg every time he did.
Chris Johnson
@Martin: Yeah, that does seem like the most likely outcome. I like it. “Oh, I can’t have discretion and must spell out everything unforgivingly with no flexibility? All righty then”
I’m real frustrated by Balloon Juice over the last few days, but at the same time it can be almost as good as Michael Steele as far as reality checks go. Not a place for the timid! I’ve even got chided by John (and privately threatened but not by John, and will not explain further: detente, please): John, thanks, we clearly don’t agree on everything but ya know this is America, my idea of it is that I’m gonna be confronted by the 27% or worse on the regular and as a Dem I’ve got to work out how to exist alongside outright enemies. In America you get to have enemies without getting to put them in camps. That’s why Trump is so fucking unAmerican. It’s actually pretty simple.
I’m un-thrilled to count a majority of the Supreme Court as obvious enemies. They seem powerful, and it’s bad. But the one thing screaming out to me from the last couple days on Balloon Juice is how important it is to not preemptively comply with fascists, criminals and fuckheads.
I’m sure not going to preemptively comply with coordinated calls to get Joe to quit. I prefer him not to be a quitter.
I just think it’s masks-off time, and another thing: I don’t think all this is blindsiding Biden and his people. Not like it all blindsided the Dems in 2016. By now, we know what goes on. The details are in the Zone, ambiguous, too hard to pin down. But we know we can’t go by face value. For instance, if all the New York Times goes ‘hey you should jump off that cliff, we totally don’t have any sort of nefarious agenda’ we can go ‘lol nope’.
Chris Johnson
@Chet Murthy: I mean, you can say traitor, but that implies he was EVER aligned with this country. Re-look at that slip, from the perspective of ‘Russia was running a spoiler candidate in the form of a guy they actually controlled from way back, and couldn’t believe their luck’.
Russia’s big insight into what will come to be known as the WWIII that actually happened as precursor to old-fashioned empire expansionism, is that you don’t have to run secret agents as James Bond with a detailed plan and close communications.
You can set a bunch of bumbling dumbasses, pursuing stupid goals and bullied by fear of exposure, to work blanketing the world in propaganda, and work the statistics of it all. While it works, it works. It got them a literal President, and of course he was in service of Putin’s dream.
Why do you think he stole what he thought were great military secrets and dragged them down to Mar-A-Lago for Russian spies to photograph and then leave dumped all over the floor?
If you were always the enemy’s guy you don’t count as a traitor. You’re just the enemy’s guy.
Chet Murthy
@Chris Johnson:
I take your point. Perhaps I’m so incensed because I was naturalized at age 17, and I remember the Oath of Naturalization, where I forswore foreign allegiances (and haha, agreed that if called before the House Committee on Un-American Activities, I would appear *grin*). So seeing a American citizen so obviously in thrall to a foreign power, to our greatest foreign adversary, is really infuriating.
But that’s a way in which native-born are different from naturalized, I guess: we must swear our allegiance, whereas for the native-born, they get all those rights without having to do so.
Chris Johnson
@Chet Murthy: I mean, we’re talking about Donald Trump. That fucker is really something else. I am reminded pretty regularly here that I can’t simply assume every total fool is Putin’s guy, and I’m bull-headed and could use the reminding.
Like I said, this is America, and we’re Democrats, not authoritarian followers. We actively want an intensely multicultural, bustling society. That is inevitably going to include stuff that pisses us off because that’s the POINT: our vision is not of an enclave with a giant wall, but a super-complicated urban productive thing with a billion factions.
Turns out that is awkward and maddening but wildly productive and it’s carried us really far, because we haven’t torn it down and installed a theocracy of only certain white people, in its place.
Donald Trump is a special case. I think it’s hard to not see that Trump is a fake guy propped up by oligarchs as a useful dumbass to compromise more important people with, and he’s always been a monster. It’s also not hard to see how specifically the New York Times has fallen on hard times in the age of the internet and needed a lot of… help to maintain their social position. And if you can run an asshole like Trump, and if you have enough control over media outlets that themselves assert social control on their lessers, you seemingly have the world by the balls.
Or not. If not for Ukraine, I think we’d still be dancing around and seemingly adoring our potemkin Leaders, if not Trump one of his fellow monsters. Ya kind of watch for the people who try to do awful things they could be blackmailed over. It’s probably how they first got Trump, and of course you’ve got Matt Gaetz and so on, and we’d be told that we worship all those people and the public adores everything about them. The NYT said so!
But we’re not, and we don’t, and we won’t, and Biden’s people have been just flipping off the NYT lately. Ya might as well go on Tim Pool (something Trump literally did. Classy)
Fuck’em.
Chris Johnson
The interesting thing here is, on the one hand yes. Heck, it’s beneath Joe just as a plain old human being to have to talk with Trump: that guy is so morally, intellectually, personally beneath Joe Biden it’s absurd, and that was on full display for everyone to see.
But as a recovery guy I’ve got an alternate spin on how to look at this. Our service structure is set up as an inverted pyramid. We elect trusted servants to carry the message from individuals to more aggregated levels, not to appoint authorities to rule us (‘cos look at us: yeah, making us authorities doesn’t go well :D )
Joe Biden is a public servant. That is perhaps his greatest quality. It’s why I hated so much of what he did when he was representing the businesses of Delaware. Then, when he turned to represent the even larger body politic of the whole USA, he changed and grew, and he remains a public servant.
So in a sense none of us are beneath the office of the President, even Trump. Joe’s a public servant. It just so happens that Trump is here to kick over our sandbox, so Joe is not here to obey random assholes with spray-tans, and we do still get to take out the trash, and indeed hire a guy to continue to take out the trash, and appreciate that service a huge amount.
We need more Joe, and less Trump. Joe is not above us. He’s our guy, and he’s not done taking out the trash. Clearly.
Chris
@BellyCat:
I think people who say this are naïve to think it would’ve changed anything. We would’ve had all the same commentary that we do now, just with more snide sniping about how pitiful it is that Biden has to cover his obvious dementia with a ridiculous story about a cold.
He didn’t try to cancel or reschedule the debate for the same reason.
Chris
@wjca:
Other way around. The media framing has been in place for four years – all those stories about Biden being old and senile and all those stories about Biden only serving one term. It set everything up so that the first time Democrats did panic, that narrative – “Biden is old and senile! He has to resign!” – was ready made for them to fall into.
It’s been a master class in how propaganda works, in ways that are a lot less obvious than “the network is running ads for this candidate! Fortunately, I am, of course, immune. Unlike the great mass of people, who are totally glued to the screen every time an ad comes on.”
Chris Johnson
@Chris: Hah! I was already thinking of it, and that reminds me even more of LazerPig. Can’t recommend this enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBAnt_w8vvY
“But you’re immune to propaganda…… Ain’tcha??”
…which is also why non-propagandists wind up echoing all this and furthering the damage, even when they are not themselves compromised. Everybody finds somebody to believe, naturally. It’s about flooding the zone until there are so many propagandists reverberating around that you choose not to believe your eyes.
I think propagandists too easily forget the amount of work that has to go into keeping people believing their bullshit. If they were willing to keep it up, but didn’t get complacent, they’d get more. But then the ones I’m thinking about have been keeping it up for decades, so I guess to some extent it’s possible.
rikyrah
@Frankensteinbeck:
Thanks for your viewpoint👏🏾
LanceThruster
I think this election will be won or lost in the margins. The slaughter in Gaza was already hurting him with voting blocks that could otherwise normally be counted on. This was hoped to be an opportunity to show the naysayers worried about any decline in his cognitive skills that it wasn’t an issue. And now there are those whose response is even if it becomes an issue, we will not allow it to be an issue. Will that be enough to retain enough of those still planning to vote and mobilize turnout in sufficient numbers to shore things up where needed with or without enthusiasm for the party’s nominee? It has the potential to seriously impact down ballot votes and there’s already been pieces reminding Dems that regardless of the outcome of the presidential race that congressional races must not take a hit as well or we’re really in a world of hurt.
Time will tell.
artem1s
Exactly. The Blue state legislatures can test the hell out of this as well. CA has been doing this for decades. Leading the way on environmental and safety regs that exceed what the Fed agencies require. Isn’t Chevron is an attempt to get TX lack of regulations to go national? Why does this have to be a one way street? All the laws that MAGAs and reactionary SCOTUS 6 love are enforced by federal agencies too.
Another Scott
@Martin:
That’s an important point. And it’s the law. Even the US Government buying a box of pens is an amazingly complex process because the FAR is the law and is amazingly complex. There are some exceptions to parts of the process for small purchases, but the consequences for breaking the rules about “obligating the US Government” are severe. Only certain highly trained people can do that obligating – and RWNJ guys on courts aren’t them. And that’s just a tiny example of one part of one process.
The RWNJs on the SCOTUS are trying to break the modern federal government. They are doing very bad things, but the system is resilient and will fight back (just as it did with TCFFG’s Schedule F stuff).
Don’t give up the ship!
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Urza:
Yep! A commenter (or lurker!) sends an email letting me know they would like to be an angel, and tells me the amount they are offering for angel matches. Some say they want to support this particular effort or that particular organization, or they want to support this particular state, and some say “I have this much angel money for 2024; use it wherever it’s needed most.”
It all starts with an email to me. My nym at balloon-juice.com
Let me know if you have any more questions!
Mousebumples
@Urza: yup! I’ve done that in the past. If you’re interested in becoming an angel (matching) donor, please email WaterGirl! (should be a contact form in the footer I think?)
@WaterGirl – I finally got the email sent to you that I’ve been meaning to send for weeks. Not urgent, but FYI in case it went to some strange folder…
Princess
My yellow dog Dem friends who turned the debate off ten minutes after it started because they couldn’t cope with what they were seeing are not “caught up in the media framing.”
I’m not saying he should drop out. It’s hard to know what would be worse at this point. It’s two bad options. But he’s not dropping out and Jill who knows him best isn’t pushing him to so I guess it’s just one bad option. We’ll make the best of it. It’s not sunshine and roses on the GOP side either. We’re lucky De Santis faceplanted.
BellyCat
@Chris: Disagreed. When a very progressive lawyer (a client and friend of mine) who strongly supports Joe says after the debate, “It’s clear that we need another candidate”, explanatory reasons can help assure those already supporting Joe.
In other words, the goal is to not lose existing support while attempting to gain undecideds. Those supporting Trump are a lost cause. Who cares what they say.
Eyeroller
@Chris: I know we’re beating a dead horse here but I agree. There would have been nothing he could say that wouldn’t have had this outcome. My theory, which is mine, is that the preppers were responding to all the criticisms about nobody knowing what the Biden administration has accomplished, so turned the prep into a cram school on policy details. He’s not the policy detail guy, he’s the big-picture guy, so trying to remember all that, plus his stutter, plus whatever cold symptoms he might have had, gave us the result we saw.
Eyeroller
@Princess: This media framing has been around for four years so unless they have consumed no media, not even reading headlines, for the past four years, they were predisposed to this conclusion.
Obama had a very bad first debate against a Gish-galloping Romney, but it didn’t fit neatly into a pre-existing narrative so there wasn’t such an over-the-top reaction as we are seeing now.
K-Mo
@Another Scott:
This is very correct.
Also, Kristoff talking about economic policy is like nails on a chalkboard. Stick to shining a light on human trafficking.
K-Mo
@Splitting Image: An off night is missing a few key points or taking the wrong tone on a contentious issue. He epically melted down in the first 15 minutes, which is when the disinterested millions were watching.
K-Mo
@comrade scotts agenda of rage: The caracaturing of black folk on here is cringe.
K-Mo
@lollipopguild: I’d argue people have seen enough of the guy at this point.
K-Mo
@Chet Murthy: It’s been enraging to see how badly he has polled despite a miraculously good performance as President.
stinger
Our candidate is old. Their candidate is awaiting sentencing for 34 felonies. We’re not the ones who should be looking for a new candidate.
K-Mo
@Frankensteinbeck:
As bad as Trump was, Biden managed to upstage him.
https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2024/Items/Jun28-1.html
Biden didn’t have to shoot down all of Trump’s lies, although it would have been nice and a better debater would have had a field day. He did have to give passably lucid answers to the fundamental questions that concern the nation.
K-Mo
@Eyeroller: I don’t remember Obama stopping in the middle of his sentences to stare into the lights, turning lay-up questions about abortion rights into nonsense about violence by immigrants, and repeatedly stumbling over the difference between millions, billions, and trillions of dollars.
Another Scott
@K-Mo: There were clips of Obama stammering to get a word in edgewise when being interrupted, etc.
It happens. Especially when people are under lots of pressure and everything is scrutinized.
FWIW.
Forward!!
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@gwangung:
Thanks for this. Your true friends tell you when you are fucking up.
WaterGirl
@K-Mo:
@K-Mo:
@K-Mo:
@K-Mo:
@K-Mo:
@K-Mo:
K-Mo
@Another Scott:
Seems like false equivalence to me, especially when I was responding to the comment that “Obama had a very bad first debate against a Gish-galloping Romney,” but we can agree to differ.
Does this type of thing happen to the best of us? Sure, but it’s never happened during a major televised debate, especially when millions were tuning in for the express purpose of seeing whether it would. Does this mean Biden is too diminished to be an effective candidate? I don’t know and I don’t have the expertise or the access to evaluate. But it *was* a f-up of epic proportions. It’s weird to pretend otherwise.
K-Mo
@WaterGirl: So you’re saying you like to hear Nick Kristoff opining on “West Coast liberalism” whatever that is?
Villago Delenda Est
@Another Scott: Geeze, don’t get me going on the complications of being an “imprest funds” agent for the Army.
Villago Delenda Est
@K-Mo: Nick Kristoff is NEVER going to be governor of Oregon. He’s lost the plot by being a Vichy Times columnist for decades.
K-Mo
@Villago Delenda Est: I’m afraid I don’t follow. I said “Kristoff talking about economic policy is like nails on a chalkboard.” And Watergirl responded with a picture of a cat cake which I assume is a cool kids way of disagreeing with implied vulgarity. Not sure what this has to do with elections in OR but I take it Watergirl is a Kristoff fan.
Skippy-san
He’s right, except for two things. 1) The abomination that is the electoral college. This disenfranchised decent people and gives too much say to deranged people in small states. 2) There are too many MAGA’s who don’t care about policy, whose only priority is exacting revenge on those that Trump says wronged them.
And, of course, there are evil people like Kevin Roberts who will never run for office but do a tremendous amount of damage.
Pittsburgh Mike
@BellyCat: You’re pretty much on target, IMO.
Biden needed to communicate just a few things:
Abortion — Pregnancy is dangerous. Republicans have made it unsafe to be pregnant in a red state, and if Trump wins, they’ll try to make it unsafe to be pregnant anywhere in the US. Vote for me and we’ll put Roe into law. As an aside, no one has an abortion past viability — no doctor would even perform one were it legal; this is just Republican BS.
Ukraine — Trump will do his best to appease
StalinPutin. But he can’t be appeased — Europe tried that in 1939 and it doesn’t end well. Trump wants us out of NATO, but that’s just a recipe for a big war in Europe.ACA — If you like getting insurance even if you have pre-existing conditions, well, Trump wants to get rid of that. He almost succeeded last time he was President — only McCain saved us. We’ll continue to make the ACA even more affordable to the middle class.
Economy — We need to bring manufacturing back to the US from China. Yes, we made a mistake to follow the Republicans on free trade everywhere, but we’re actually trying to fix it. Trump did nothing to boost investment when he was president.
He didn’t need to quote a bunch of stats that mean nothing to people anyway.
Gig
@BellyCat: Rremember the VP debate with Paul Ryan? Ryan’s earnest but ridiculous economic policies led to Biden laughing and shaking his head. Ryan looked like an out-of-his-depth schoolkid trying to sound smarter than his professor.
K-Mo
@Pittsburgh Mike:
Co-sign. That was the assignment, or should have been.