As a companion piece to Anne Laurie’s post last night about so-called Christians embracing Combover Caligula, here’s the brilliant Samantha Bee entertainingly and accurately describing how the religious right was welded to the Republican Party decades ago:
Shorter Bee: There’s nothing new about god-bothering conservative busy-bodies jettisoning the principles of their faith in the scramble for political power. It’s who they’ve been all along.
Mustang Bobby
How’s that old song go? “Birds gotta fly, fish gotta fry, grifters gotta grift until the day they die…”
schrodinger's cat
Religious conservatives (the ones who use religion as a wedge issue) are the most hypocritical and judgy people on the planet. This is true whether one is speaking of the religious right in this country, RSS types who support Modi or any of the other assorted zealots of Islam. The hatred of women seems also to be a common theme.
Betty Cracker
@schrodinger’s cat: Yep. Oppression of gays is a common theme of conservative Islam and Christianity too, as we all know. Is it also a thing among fundamentalists in India?
Linnaeus
@schrodinger’s cat:
You mean it’s not politically correct liberals? The hell you say!
oldster
I love Samantha Bee. Great clip.
geg6
@schrodinger’s cat:
This. Though I would say their fear and hatred of women (and all the others they fear and hate) is all related to their hypocrisy on moral and sexual matters. They are some very psychologically twisted mofos.
schrodinger's cat
@Betty Cracker: I don’t know for sure but its sort of a thing that you don’t even mention in polite society. People gossip, of course. There was a movie released in the February, called Aligarh. It was about a true story about a professor of Marathi at the Aligarh Muslim University who was hounded out of town and out of job for being gay. He fought back and sued his University for unlawful termination. He won the case but later committed suicide. So, I guess the short answer would be yes.
Thoroughly Pizzled
Jesus wept.
scav
Apparently, just as they know that Jebus has forgiven all their sins, they know he’s making no big fuss about any of Trump’s or Reagan’s. So long as you’re inside the Church tent, it’s all forgive and forget. But you folks outside the tent? Eternal damnation according to a system you’re not even a part of. They’ve trained Jebus well: He’ll damn exactly who they tell him to.
dedc79
I put “Family Values” up there with “Pro-Life” as two of the most dishonest and damaging slogans in american politics.
Chris
Can’t watch, at work. But this –
Seems spot on.
1) Like I said in that other thread – the religious right is the movement that got off the ground in the late seventies in response to Jimmy Carter’s government revoking the tax-exempt status of all-white “Christian” schools in the South. They’ve been the most organized faction of bigots in the U.S. for more than a generation. Of course they’d rally to Trump.
2) They did it for Romney and they did it for McCain.
OzarkHillbilly
@schrodinger’s cat:
Oh c’mon, they don’t hate all women, look at Phyllis Schlafly…. on second thought, let’s not…. anyway, they just hate you.
LAO
@dedc79: Amen
ETA: I would add the “Moral Majority” to that as well.
Roger Moore
@srv:
That’s called flop sweat.
Chris
@schrodinger’s cat:
The common themes seem to be 1) hatred of women, 2) hatred of LGBT people, 3) hatred of other religions, and 4) an amalgamation between their own particular culture and traditions and the religion as a whole. (This is especially noticeable in religions with universal ambitions that aren’t supposed to be tied to a particular ethnic heritage, like Christianity and Islam – it’s become cliche to point out just how much of modern Islamic fundamentalism is just Saudi Arab chauvinism, or how much Christian fundamentalism owes to American heartland and especially Southern cultural anxieties).
OzarkHillbilly
@scav:
Not always. The governor of Alabama got kicked out of his church for his ‘coveting thy neighbor’s wife’ ways
NCSteve
“Combover Caligula.” I’m so stealing that.
J R in WV
I think twisting religion into a political tool is probably the most evil and anti-religion act that can be done by self-proclaimed religious leaders. IIRC, Yesu spoke about this specifically when he recommended separation of church and state: Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s… isn’t that how it goes?
The Sheriff's A Ni-
This looks like a good place to post this: Jamelle Bouie on Why Hillary Won’t Blow It
grandpa john
@scav: I like to think that Jesus sort of covered that kind of stuff here in Matthew 7
schrodinger's cat
@NCSteve: Isn’t Trump more like the horse and the GOP enablers, Caligula.
Betty Cracker
@NCSteve: I stole it from Anne Laurie. It’s brilliant.
TriassicSands
@schrodinger’s cat:
How could it be otherwise? After all, everything was just fine in Eden until that sl*t Eve, unable to adhere to the diet God had prescribed for her, just had to get down with Satan and eat that tainted apple. Not satisfied with her own damnation, Eve had to get Adam on board too, and the rest is history, as they say. If it weren’t for women (or the woman in this case), we’d all (white men, anyway) be dancing around Eden buck naked, while lions and tigers ate salads and frolicked with the sheep and deer. (There was no mention of dinosaurs in Genesis, but I assume they were also there in Eden.) So, yeah, hatred of women seems only natural. Obviously, if God had been just a little smarter, he would have skipped the whole woman thing and just made men able to impregnate each other. (You only have to read The Diaries of Adam and Eve — translated from the original Pig Latin by Mark Twain) to see that Eve, and women are the cause of all the worlds’ woes.)
I’ve always been skeptical of Eve’s guilt though. Wasn’t it really God’s fault that things went so wrong? After all, it was God who made Eve, and being all perfect, shouldn’t God have been able to make her behave a little better and always do exactly what God and Adam told her to do? (And all other men, once they came along.) Technically, wouldn’t it have been enough to simply make Eve hate apples? Imagine, if Eve had been an orange and banana lover, we’d all still be living in Paradise.
scav
@OzarkHillbilly: Possibly an exception to the rule, but I’d be rooting around for the real reason the sin-invisibilty cloak stopped working.
StringOnAStick
I had a patient yesterday who recently spent some time in Cleveland and has been there a lot over the years (family). According to her, there aren’t enough hotel rooms for the R convention, even with the new stuff being built, and certainly not enough taxis. According to her, one taxi driver* told her that it is going to be chaos just because it is already bad when they have a smaller convention. The convention hall is so small that it is where the press will be located, and the actual convention will be held at the sportsball arena across town. Once again, infrastructure just isn’t something R’s care much about I guess.
*yeah I know, cab driver confession and all that. Still, I thought her comments were interesting.
schrodinger's cat
@TriassicSands: Is it any wonder that the fundies like Trump, his opinion of women matches their own.
Jeffro
It’s interesting: if these religious-right folks were truly voting according to Christian values, they’d be well to the left of HRC and possibly even The Bern. And yet we see how they react whenever Pope Francis does something well in line with Jesus’ teachings…
Poopyman
@Chris: They hate that which they fear, and they fear that which they don’t understand.
As a corollary, they fear the ungraspable, such as the astronomical span of the reach of the universe and of time since the beginning of the earth and of course earlier to the Big Bang. This drives the insistence of Bible as Literal Truth.
Miss Bianca
@srv: Ooh, a Democrat for 54 whole days, and already disillusioned? Aww, that poor sweet baby.
ETA: And honestly, the sooner everyone stops treating Noam Chomsky like some actual political prophet, the better. Like Ralph Nader, his shelf life was good only for as long as he stuck to what he actually knew.
scav
@TriassicSands: God rigged the entire game, having built both the context, the rules and the players. Amusing to think of all the MRAs and xianists dreaming of a prelapsian edenic idyll of masculine nakedness in the exclusive company of men and utter obedience to an authoritarian game-rigging master of all.
Cat48
@srv: Fine by me, just remember you can’t vote in Closed Primaries
amk
All that veins popping rhetoric. Wonder what is the average life span of 24×7 poutraged fundies.
Cacti
@Miss Bianca:
He had to join. How else could he resign in protest?
Perpetual protest people are so tedious.
schrodinger's cat
@amk: Their hatred energizes them.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
I think this is the real key. People are looking to religion not for a new understanding but for justification for their existing prejudices. Or, as people often point out, the word of God looks suspiciously like exactly what they already wanted to do.
OzarkHillbilly
@scav: It does happen. My wife’s hair stylist’s husband is a preacher, I don’t know of what branch of Christianity, his church had a big kerfuffle when some wanted to ban gays and he said, “You need to leave.” He has a small congregation here in the heart of the bible belt, so it is not necessarily representative. Obviously he takes the teachings of Jesus a little more seriously than some others, but it goes to show that one should not lump all Christians into the same intolerant basket.
Luthe
@StringOnAStick: Sounds like it’s time for the good people of Cleveland to all become Uber drivers. I hope the delegates all choke on the free-market solution that is surge pricing.
Dog Dawg Damn
I’ll tell you–some on them Will vote Trump, no doubt. But many of them won’t. He will win fewer evangelicals than Mitt and far fewer than Dubya.
Rather than demonizing these people–and many of them are good, sincere people–the Demoxraric party should be teaching out and bringing them over.
We won the culture war. No one likes a sore loser. Truth and reconciliation, fine, but pushing them out of our tent when a fascist dystopia is a real possibility just seems small.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Luthe: We do have RTA, though I am unsure if they’ll be providing special ‘Commoner Free’ buses and rapid cars for the convention.
scav
@OzarkHillbilly: Actually, there are certainly good churches, just as there are good unions, fast food restaurants and dive bars, full of reasonable people it’d no doubt be feasible to have a pleasant beer and/or jesus cracker with. But they’re generally not the ones driving the larger movement.
schrodinger's cat
@Roger Moore: Its probably true of folks like Gingrich and Rod Dreher who change their religion more frequently than most people change their telephone carriers or cable operators.
CONGRATULATIONS!
You folks saying evangelicals are going to sit this one out are out of your fucking minds. Every last one of them will vote for Trump. Not a one will sit out, not a one will vote for Hillary. That was delusional talk, always has been. You all know how these people are.
Getting in line is what they do.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Dog Dawg Damn: If they’re fine with Griswold, Roe, and Oberkfell, they’re more than welcome inside the big tent.
EBT
@srv: If you completely shat away such a lucrative career springboard like Rubio has you would want everyone out of your face too.
Betty Cracker
@OzarkHillbilly: True. I’m an atheist, but some of the finest, most caring and compassionate people I’ve ever known were/are Christians. Liberal Christians. And I’ve know conservative Christians who have appalling views on many issues but are nonetheless generous and compassionate people on a personal level. It’s a mystery.
OzarkHillbilly
@scav:
I have no argument with that. As an atheist, I have a hard time conversing with the uber religious of any context, but the thinking ones are quite enjoyable.
schrodinger's cat
@Betty Cracker: They are kind to their kind. They judge you to be one of their own even if somewhat misguided, so they make concessions for you.
Roger Moore
@J R in WV:
That was actually a deliberate and clever non-answer; the Gospels are actually quite clear that what was amazing about his response was that he dodged the question so deftly, not that he gave a clear answer.
OzarkHillbilly
Guy Clark- RIP
Wapiti
@TriassicSands: I’ve always contrasted the story of Adam and Eve and the Greek tale of Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods, gave it to humans, and was punished for it.
I think the moral of both of the tales is that the gods, and our elites who represent the gods, want people to be ignorant and fearful. Knowledge is a threat to gods, religions, and most of the elite grifters we call priests and politicians.
edit to add: I would note the difference between the Greeks, who basically said: Thanks, Promethus, for bringing us knowledge at great cost; while the Hebrews said: dammit, Eve, we could have remained happily ignorant if it wasn’t for women like you.
OzarkHillbilly
@schrodinger’s cat: I have never been any of their kinds and still find many to be kind, considerate and genuine. I have also found many to be the exact opposite. I like to let people show themselves for what they are before I pigeon hole them.
NorthLeft12
AMEN! to that.
schrodinger's cat
@OzarkHillbilly: You may not be religious but if you look like they do, they may be more forgiving of your blasphemies. We human beings can be quite tribal that way, whether are religious or not.
JPL
@Betty Cracker: Yes it is. I’m passing it on.
OzarkHillbilly
@schrodinger’s cat:
Heh. No, not at all, but they will pray for me.:-)
MattF
A lot of this stuff goes into the ‘Inscrutable Gentiles’ folder. I understand– assuming you’re not a candidate for sainthood– that reality poses unsolvable moral dilemmas. But I don’t understand how the right-wing Xtians can so miss the point. It’s a mystery.
gogol's wife
@Dog Dawg Damn:
Good comment.
gogol's wife
I think Dog Dawg Damn is right that not all evangelical Christians are going to be able to stomach Trump. They may not vote for Hillary, but that’s going to depress his numbers.
singfoom
I’m not convinced that evangelicals will abandon Trump because he’s a sinner. Perhaps the most devout amongst them will, but I think a certain moral flexibility is required for many fundamentalist Christians because how they act isn’t how their book tells them to act but it’s how they think it tells them to act.
I think there’s plenty of cafeteria Christians who of the mean hearted variety who worship Republican Jesus that will gladly vote for Trump. Think about it, he’s not far off from the prosperity gospel himself.
Little Sonny's Bubbie
@Betty Cracker: Conservative (i.e. Orthodox) Judaism too.
TriassicSands
@schrodinger’s cat:
What amazes me most — the women who accept their own Biblically defined inferiority. I mean, it’s not like Adam had to eat the apple. He could have said “NO!” and proceeded to give Eve the beating she so richly deserved. That would have established both his moral superiority and physical dominance over Eve. I’m sure God would have approved.
slag
This Seattle Seawards clip also hilarious: http://samanthabee.com/episode/12/clip/the-seattle-seawards/.
LAO
@TriassicSands:
It seems to me, that all fundamentalist or orthodox religions, place the onus for Men’s behavior on Women. In other words, men are hopeless beasts, who can’t control themselves — so women must behave and dress in a manner that prevents men from behaving like, men.
SiubhanDuinne
@Wapiti:
I’ve always seen the parallels between the Eve story in Genesis and the Pandora story of Greek myth. Both curious women, doing the one thing they had explicitly been forbidden to do, thereby wreaking havoc on humankind for the rest of time.
Misogyny has been baked in for thousands of years.
Snarki, child of Loki
Trump isn’t ‘Caligula’ (Little Boots). That was Dubya.
Trump is NERO, of the famed ‘Golden Palace’ (it’s YOOOOGE. And CLASSY also too).
Kay
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Absolutely. They’re actually better at “anti” voting than Democrats are. They LOVE a “no” vote. They’ll be smiting all over the place. It was Ted Cruz’s whole campaign.
NonyNony
@singfoom:
Evangelicals will vote for the Republican because that’s what they do now. Unlike a lot of liberals and progressives, evangelical conservatives are perfectly willing to vote for the imperfect candidate that will advance most of their agenda. As far as they’re concerned everyone is evil anyway, so voting for the lesser evil is what they have to do no matter who they vote for. A vote for Trump to keep Clinton out of office is as good as a vote for W to keep Gore out of office – either way it’s one step closer to imposing religious law on the country.
I’d love to see Trump be the line which they cannot cross. But I don’t think there’s a chance of that happening. They’re very practical when it comes to their politics and a choice between Clinton and Trump is no choice at all as far as they’re concerned.
(I think where Clinton has a chance to get Republicans to switch or stay home is wit the more so-called “pragmatic Republicans” who claim that they vote Republican not because of social issues but because of business reasons or taxes or whatever. A sliver of those guys are appalled at Trump and are afraid he’ll destroy things worse than W did. They might sit this one out. But not the evangelicals.)
joel hanes
@J R in WV:
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s
Judging from behavior, they are also incapable of understanding the bit in Matthew 23 about the whited sepulchres.
(Yeshua ben Yosef was not down with conspicuous piety)
TriassicSands
@scav:
Or. more accurately, men rigged the entire game, having invented a God who would do the rest. I am an atheist, but I’m not arguing here that there is no God, only that the God of Christianity, as currently presented in the Holy Bible, is a male invention designed to put men in charge. Why women would buy that nonsense is beyond me.
Another similarly convenient invention — Allah. When one reads about Paradise in the Koran, it is so obviously exactly the kind of place someone growing up in a desert environment would see as ideal, starting with a garden and lots and lots of water.
The Dangerman
Roughly related, there was a fascinating article in the LA Times this morning about “The Green Book”; now, I’m reasonably well educated and well read, but I’d never heard of it previously. For the curious:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-route-66-20160516-snap-story.html
Betty Cracker
@singfoom: Pretty much. In the featured clip, Bee points out that right-wing Christians abandoned Sunday School teacher and exemplary Christian Jimmy Carter in favor of divorced Hollyweirdian Ronald Reagan.
Schlemazel Khan
@srv:
OH NOES!!! WHAT WILL THE DEMS DO WITHOUT NOAM AND WILL BUNCH?!?!?!?!?!?!
This is the end of the two party system for sure.
Emma
@Dog Dawg Damn: Just tell me how, when their bedrock values — which they insist MUST become our social and cultural values — are so different from ours.
joel hanes
@Schlemazel Khan:
I like Will Bunch. His heart’s in the right place.
Sometimes he’s wrong.
OzarkHillbilly
@SiubhanDuinne: I once made a “Pandora’s box” as a gag gift for a very curious friend (it said Pandora on the top). Put a spring loaded bottom in it, filled it with unpopped popcorn and locked it shut. I gave him the key too. He managed to resist opening it but everytime I saw him he would ask, “Gawddammit, what’s in the box???”
Cermet
@Jeffro: That’s because “religious folk”, of all religions without exception, love money above all else. To them, the idea of an after life – as laughable as such a stupid concept really is – is the ultimate con that can be used to pry money from the hands of fellow believers that foolishly think that will “save them”. This con game has been going on for thousands of years – thank god (being sarcastic) – the human race is slowly realizing the utter nonsense this whole concept is.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@TriassicSands: Mega bonus points. Had Islam started in, let’s say, Finland, I’ll bet Paradise would have been a tropical beach where it never snows.
MattF
Interesting to see that the dogwhistle of Trump’s taco bowl tweet is obvious to Jeb!. And interesting that he’s saying so.
NonyNony
@TriassicSands: I’m actually pretty convinced that the story of the Garden of Eden is an allegory of the Babylonian Exile. Or at least an older story that was hammered into an allegory/explanation of the Exile by the compiler of Genesis. It fits with a lot of the rest of the commentary in the OT around the exile – a lot of the blame for the Exile falls on the women – specifically foreign women who brought “strange gods” into Israel the men of the country turned from listening to the True God and instead were listening to false gods. And that the True God cast them out of their paradise and into the wilderness for their lack of obedience, and that now that they’ve screwed it up they may never be allowed back into paradise (their own country).
To me a whole lot of the OT seems to revolve around the Exile once you start reading it with a critical eye and divorce yourself from the idea that the entire collection of books are trying to recount actual history. Which makes sense – the Exile would have been a pretty traumatic event for a people to go through.
Schlemazel Khan
@TriassicSands:
Since God knew the end when he began one might wonder what sort of a sick bastard would put the tree there in the first place. Or ponder the twisted mind that knew all creation would have to be wiped out in a global flood and when creation still refused to abide by the rules come to earth as a semi-human, allow Himself to be killed and then replace the old rules with some vague new rules. But what sort of psychotic would do all that knowing that in the end He would destroy everything & toss some select group into a lake of fire for all eternity while a smaller subset would live in the paradise He created originally before the damn tree?
MattF
@Schlemazel Khan: The message is “It’s rigged. Deal with it.”
TriassicSands
@LAO:
Something’s fishy. Men are in charge. Women must obey men. But men are incapable of controlling their base instincts, so women have to dress and behave in ways that prevent boys from being boys. Apparently, nothing is more natural to men than forcible rape, so women have to cover themselves from head to foot — otherwise man’s primary brain, his penis, will dictate his own behavior. He may even be powerless to resist. And in some cultures/religions, women are punished for being raped. Even in the US, though this is changing, women are often blamed. The documentary film “The Hunting Ground” (about sexual assault on college campuses) illustrates that nicely.
How does that all fit in with the idea that women are “hysterical,” hyper-emotional beings who can’t be allowed to have political control (or even a vote)?
Mike J
@joel hanes:
He tried working with us for 54 whole days and didn’t get everything he wanted in that time. Who can blame him for quitting? How foolish of the Dems for not doing everything his way!
Schlemazel Khan
@joel hanes:
Irrelevant. Boss Grissom had a lovely singing voice. Someone who was not interested in the Democratic Party joined for 2 months and then makes a huge deal out of quitting? This is supposed to be an issue somehow? srv thinks this is significant? Is this proof that the Drumpfster fire is going to sweep into the White House or the Rmoney/Cuban ticket will throw the election into the House?
Schlemazel Khan
@MattF:
Sorry, I thought the message was “this is unadulterated 100% pure bullshit”
scav
@Schlemazel Khan: Don’t forget damning all those of his creation unfortunate enough to live before or outside of the information zone of his semi-human reboot. “As flies to wanton boys are we to th’ gods,They kill us for their sport.” only after breeding us in the first place. So, maybe we’re more those tame pen-raised quail that are bred and let loose for Cheney and ilk to blast away at.
TriassicSands
@Schlemazel Khan:
I don’t know, possibly someone with the psychological profile of Donald Trump. Maybe Trump was actually created in HIS image (right down to the hair do). Who knows, maybe God is so pissed off because of his own comb-over.
There is a wonderful book, “God, A Biography” by Jack Miles. Miles treats God as a literary character and examines his behavior. In the Old Testament, there is no loving god, but rather a vengeful, genocidal maniac. The religious Israelis believe that they are God’s chosen people, but it’s like being chosen by Hitler or Stalin.
Schlemazel Khan
Bee sort of touches on it in this video but back in the early 60’s it was religious folks that were leading the way on social issues, in support of civil rights, ending the death penalty, feeding and clothing the poor, pretty much the antithesis of the hateful garbage presented as Christian today. One of the outcomes of the Folwell shift has been to convince many liberals that the church is a bad thing. Christianity has gone from Christs love and the golden rule to the petty hateful vengeance, ignorance and dictatorial rule sets of the Old Testament. This has been to the detriment of both civil society and Christianity.
? Martin
@schrodinger’s cat:
I disagree with this, and I think promoting the idea is counterproductive.
I think the formula is this: Democrats are more tuned to looking out for specific issues that women uniquely face, and Republicans instinctively oppose anything that Democrats support. I don’t think most Republicans inherently oppose those things, they’ve just convinced themselves that they must be bad and therefore must be opposed. But that doesn’t mean they hate women. Do Democrats that oppose free trade hate foreign workers? Because that’s who is hurt by that position.
Yes, Republicans oppose policies that benefit women, and they should be called out on that openly. And their reasons for opposing those policies are routinely hypocritical, nonsensical and sometimes unconservative. But I don’t believe that the majority of conservatives hate women. Trump doesn’t even hate them. He just doesn’t respect them.
So I think broadly proclaiming that they hate women just forces them into a defensive posture. Its a good way to ensure that they never break out of it, never moderate their positions, never remove that from their political litmus test, and probably ensure that they never see someone like Clinton, who among her many accomplishments has been very forward looking for women, as a viable leader. I don’t see how that helps us other than making us feel better that we’re on the right side of things (which we should feel confident of anyway).
Chris
@singfoom:
It’s more than that. Christian fundamentalism pretty much takes the position that how you act is irrelevant, because all humans are tainted by original sin and incapable of saving themselves. Fortunately, because he is a nice guy, God will provide you with the salvation you don’t deserve as long as you “accept him as your personal lord and savior.”
Translation: if you join us, you’re okay. If you don’t, you’re evil.
Unsurprisingly, that kind of tribalism overlaps easily with the other kinds.
Schlemazel Khan
@TriassicSands:
I have tried to buy that book but it is out of print and I have not found a copy. Seems like an interesting premise.
I will add that I was raised in a CHristian household. Not only Sunday School but also a weekly bible study. I know there are many devote believers who actually do have Christ’s love in their hearts as well as true belief in this God of Abraham. I often feel bad about mocking the belief, decent people do not deserve that. I apologize to those who share a belief but reject the conclusions of the right-wing loons.
I am reminded of a great quote from Abraham Lincoln. “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side . . .”
Martha from Augusta
“Radicals, Perverts and Liberals” was my favorite Fleetwood Mac album.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@TriassicSands:
I became a non-believer my first year of Sunday School when I realized the Old Testament god was a dickish manipulative, murderous, jealous, petty asshole. I couldn’t believe anyone would willingly buy into worshiping such a being, and then, when he supposedly got chill and sent his son to be tortured and unjustly killed by a bunch of sadistic imperial recruits, to help us atone for some “sins” that were way less than what god was doing – one of which was being born – I realized I’m not here for any of that.
TriassicSands
@NonyNony:
It would be truly wonderful* to know what was really behind the stories in the Bible. Possibly the worst dilemma I could face would be to have a time machine that would go anywhere in history, but only work for one trip.
*It might also be quite depressing.
Punchy
@Kay: These people are NOT NOT NOT voting for Trump, they’re voting for the open SCOTUS spot. They say so in damn near every interview. They’re among the most politically-knowledgeable folks around, and they understand what Lifetime Appointment means for R v. W, 2nd amendy, religous freedom for bigotry, etc.
Major Major Major Major
You know what’s good? Letters From the Earth. I also enjoyed Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ’s Childhood Pal, though putting them in the same paragraph feels weird.
Ella in New Mexico
My 78 and 81 year-old in-laws HATE fundy-right-evangelicals. They transferred out of the Lutheran church they’d attended for over 50 years and now drive 40 miles to their new one, because the members fired their pastor for speaking in an inclusive way about gays and transgender people and the possibility that gay marriage was not an abomination. They also think the Mormons “aren’t really Christians, you know. Don’t let them fool you.” They think their teachings that women are somehow inferior to men are ridiculous.
In the early 70’s, my M-in-L had to drive two states over to have an abortion at 16weeks of pregnancy because she’d already had five kids and they were struggling just to feed them as a couple. One of her closest friends was the gay art teacher at the tiny high school her kids attended, and he was the one who helped her finish her GED, take college courses, and express artistic talent she never knew she had after getting married at a very pregnant 16. She was devastated when the school board fired him for his “homosexual lifestyle” and even more so when he later died of AIDS.
They had rough lives, lost a son at age 6 to a drowning accident, and as such could have turned into ugly, hateful people. But they were/are well known for their warmth and loving home, for their generosity and kindness to all who enter their lives. They voted for Bill Clinton twice. I had never seen or heard either of them express a truly racist belief in their lives–until 2008 when they basically said Obama was a Manchurian Candidate Muslim who was out to destroy the world.
Maybe it was 9/11, maybe it was something else, but something happened to them during the Bush administration that made them decide to be “life time Republicans”. Even though I don’t see much difference in their lives in terms of how they live, they now proudly state they “will vote for the Republican candidate no matter who it is”. I know it HAS to be partially due to the fact that for years they only watch Fox news. They don’t use the internet at all, canceling their subscription years ago because it was too overwhelming to navigate email and the web. I get hand written birthday cards and letters now.
My husband and two of his siblings are Democrats, his brother who also never moved away from their hometown is an Obama-loathing, Hilary-hating Republican. He has a daughter who I believe is transgendered, is openly accepted in the family as gay, and is in a long term relationship with a woman. He attends the “liberal” United Church of Christ in his town.
They’re all voting “proudly” for Trump in the fall.
I’ve given up trying to understand how people pretzel themselves into making the decision to vote against not only their own interests, but agains all facts and all that they deeply believe.
Aimai
@? Martin: wrong.
Betty Cracker
@? Martin:
Oh! Well in that case, let’s extend the
handfinger of friendship…you know which one. I get what you’re saying, but when you’re on the receiving end of a never-ending stream of bullshit, it can kinda feel like hatred, you know?singfoom
@Major Major Major Major:
I’ll second that. Anything from Christopher Moore is good. “A Dirty Job” is a great read too, evidently a sequel has just come out.
Mnemosyne
@Schlemazel Khan:
Small correction: the whole “burn eternally in a lake of hellfire” thing doesn’t actually exist in the Bible. When people get tossed in the lake of fire during the Final Judgement, they die a second, permanent time instead of getting to hang out in the eternal afterlife with everyone else.
The whole “fire and brimstone Hell with eternal punishments” thing seems to have been adopted from the Greeks and Romans, but it’s dogma. It’s not in the actual book.
One poor bastard of a preacher (Rob Bell) lost his megachurch because he published a book called “Love Wins” saying that there is no Hell and the other evangelicals didn’t like that too much.
schrodinger's cat
@? Martin: I was not speaking of Republicans at all, but fundamentalists who use religion as a wedge issue. My original comment:
Reading comprehension fail. The story of Adam and Eve that many other commenters have pointed out to, shows how misogyny is baked into the cake, how it is a feature not a bug. Women have a substandard status in most religions in practice and in theory. That’s just a fact.
TriassicSands
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Bart Ehrman is a scholar of the New Testament and Jesus, and has written some excellent books about both. He was a believer in Biblical inerrancy as a teenager, and went to seminary. But the more he studied, the more he learned, the more he realized that the problems in the Bible are immense and its inconsistencies irreconcilable. It’s hard to believe that anyone who studied the actual history of the Bible could remain a true believer. Ehrman’s books are fascinating, but will lead readers on the same path he followed — from fundamentalist to non-believer.
Mnemosyne
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Interesting tidbit that somebody found in one of the recent polls: the self-identified Evangelical Christians who are the strongest Trump supporters are the ones who say they rarely or never go to church. For a lot of people, it’s a tribal marker, not an actual religious affiliation.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: A few years ago I found myself accidentally referring to the Bible as a ‘sourcebook’, like in a tabletop RPG. To wit:
Or, more commonly, the notion that rolling a 1 on a d20 roll is a “critical failure” seems to be popular even though it’s not in the sourcebook.
I uh… like this analogy.
Luthe
@scav: I once got into an argument with an evangelical minister over whether those heathens who had never heard the Word were damned to Hell, even though they never had a chance to convert. By the end of it, I had my entire (high school) philosophy class on my side and a minister who was very thankful the Lord caused the bell to ring.
Say what you will about the Catholic Church, but at least it operates on the principle of good works mattering more to God than a few empty words recited as get out of jail free. (except for Last Rites, confession always means penance, i.e. working for your absolution). Heaven is open to the heathens, so long as they were good people.
Amaranthine RBG
@J R in WV:
And yet we still build statues to Martin Lither King.
TriassicSands
@Schlemazel Khan:
You can get God: A Biography from Alibris. It is available for as little as $0.99 in a “very good” condition used trade paperback. Or a new copy can be had there for about $10.
Just search for “Alibris.” Or type in http://www.alibris.com. I’ve bought a lot of books from them over the years; they’re very reliable.
Suzanne
Here is some amazingly delicious and hilarious RedState BUTTHURT.
I need a cigarette after reading this.
bemused
The long National Review piece Adam Silverman linked to last night about the Koch brothers pulling back donations influencing presidential, US legislative elections was interesting. Koch’s and other wealthy donors not getting the returns on their investments they thought they’d get, Trump messing up the system.
What jumped out at me was a long time Koch donor (anon of course) saying they’d had a lot of successes but when they (Koch bros) said they didn’t know what to do about Trump, it was a revelation about something they didn’t know. The anon donor said “we thought when the grassroots were voting for the conservative candidates they understood and supported the policies” but “maybe that’s not true. Maybe they aren’t educated on our policies”.
The wealthy Republican donors just realized this?! They are so divorced from reality they didn’t see what was going on with the Republican base and grassroots which I doubt care much about the donors’ policy aims. The base just wants to lash out and smite everyone they blame for their world changing and not able to be openly politically incorrect.
Ella in New Mexico
@TriassicSands:
I’ve come to the conclusion that people like Bart Ehrman are works in progress, in transition towards some final resolution. Whether they actually get there or not in their own lifetimes, he’s not unlike people who have struggled with addictions or weight issues–they eschew all that they were doing “wrong” in the past and become obsessed with what it takes to keep them in the new place they’ve forged for themselves, often to the point of looking around and deciding that anyone who believes or does other than what they do in their lives is a fool.
But…We all know the LAST person we want at a party is the one who lost 100lbs by exercising 3hours a day and avoiding all fat, sugar, bread and alcohol…or at least the last one we want to sit next to. You never hear the end of how everything you put into your mouth is gonna kill you. :-)
I just happen to think they’re wrong. There IS a place after the transitional stage. A place where it all comes together and you can be at peace with the multiple dissonant things you encounter as a person of spirituality and a person of rational thinking.
Mnemosyne
@Ella in New Mexico:
I can guarantee you that this was a large factor. The Fox Borg stole my rational Rockefeller Republican dad and turned him into someone who could sit with us and explain with a straight face that communism and fascism were the same thing because Mussolini started off as a communist.
If I could sue Fox News for the pain and suffering they’ve caused my family, I would do it in a heartbeat.
? Martin
@Betty Cracker:
I totally get that. And I don’t have a problem calling out specific people or even certain groups, but I think calling out 40% of the electorate is misguided. The GOP have a lot of women voters, and I don’t believe they as a group hate women, you know?
Amir Khalid
@Amaranthine RBG:
Do you Americans build statues to Martin Luther King the clergyman, or to Martin Luther King the champion of justice and civil rights? I have no doubt Dr King’s religious beliefs had a great deal to do with the latter, but we must not confuse the two.
Feathers
Love Bee, but she missed the real tell on abortion. The original Baptist, back to the founding, teaching on when humans got a soul was that it was when an infant drew their first breath, based on the Bible verse, which I’m not going to look up, about “I breathed life into you.” In fact, Baptists were pro-birth control, and after Roe v Wade, Falwell declared that abortion needed to be regulated, but was not full out anti. In order to fulfill their new “pretend we’re not just racists” anti-abortion zeal, the Baptists actually voted to change their traditional holding on human ensoulment to match that of the Catholics in the late 1970s.
But we have to pretend this is all about the babies.
rikyrah
Latest polls point to changing 2016 landscape
05/17/16 10:46 AM
By Steve Benen
As the political world shifts its focus from primary speculation to running-mate speculation, general-election polling starts to take on the kind of salience it lacked in recent months. It’s still very early – Election Day is 174 days away – and the presidential race is very likely to take multiple turns, but it’s not too early to start establishing some baselines for future comparisons.
Take the new NBC News/Survey Monkey results, for example.
Attention is now rapidly moving to the hypothetical match-up between the leading candidates with an emphasis on a [Hillary] Clinton and [Donald] Trump contest. In this week’s poll, Americans are nearly split between their choice of Trump or Clinton; her margin over Trump narrows from 5 points last week to 3 points this week to 48 percent to 45 percent.
This early data indicates a very close race right now – though that may change considerably before November.
A closer look at the details reveals roughly what one might expect to see: men prefer Trump, women prefer Clinton. Those with less education back the Republican; those with more support the Democrat. Trump enjoys a lead among white voters, while Clinton enjoys even larger leads among every other racial and ethnic constituency.
? Martin
@schrodinger’s cat:
True enough, that was a fail on my part. But I stand by my assertion that toning down the accusation might not be so bad, at least as it applies to large groups. Again, there are a lot of female fundamentalists that I do not believe hate women as a class. There are clear a number that buy into the women as subservient to men, but I don’t think that is as broadly believed as being presented.
Now, if we are talking about elected fundamentalists, that’s a different class because they are almost exclusively men, and I think sought out the office in order to effect that sort of thing – so I think that’s a much more accurate characterization there.
Ella in New Mexico
@Ella in New Mexico:
CLARIFICATION!: My husband and his two Democrat sisters are NOT voting for Trump in the fall. Just goes to show how important a single missing “but” can be…:-)
Feathers
@? Martin: Sorry, Martin. You are very wrong here. Putting women on a pedestal is highly correlated with hatred of women, as shown in many studies. And witnessed by countless women when they start behaving in ways that Nice GuysTM disapprove of.
It may not feel nice to admit that all your friends hate women. But apparently they do.
Poopyman
@TriassicSands: Well, you could always go back and prevent your parents from meeting, just to see if you exist.
TriassicSands
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Yep, one would expect the Eskimos’ idea of paradise would be quite different from that of the inhabitants of the Gobi desert. What I don’t understand is why that escapes the notice of so many people. And Islam has spread around the world, so that now that vision of paradise is offered to people from almost every conceivable environment.
Mnemosyne
@Luthe:
Heh. I once got a street preacher to shut up and leave me alone by pointing out that faith without works is dead.
@Major Major Major Major:
Fred Clark at Slacktivist (an actual, real-life liberal Evangelical) told a story about a famous preacher who got so sick and tired of liberal Christians telling him about verses about the poor that he totally knew weren’t there that he sat down and re-read the New Testament straight through, cover to cover … and damn it, they turned out to be right. So he started supporting a lot more economic justice and at least de-emphasized the anti-GLBT stuff since, again, they were right that it wasn’t in there.
Ella in New Mexico
@Mnemosyne:
Amen.
And for what it’s worth, we totally need to rebuild and reinstate the fucking Fairness Doctrine before the entire empire goes down in rubble.
AnotherBruce
@Schlemazel Khan: Except that, like yesterday Chomsky said although he is a Sanders supporter. He recommended voting for Hillary against Trump in a swing state.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
I will tell you as a woman that you would be astounded to find out how many women hate other women.
bemused
@Mnemosyne:
You’ve got that right!
cleek
@AnotherBruce:
i recommend Chomsky seek out, and then throw himself into, the nearest alligator.
TriassicSands
@Poopyman:
Hmm. That seems kind of risky, doesn’t it? Not to you, maybe, but…
If nothing else, your suggestion would probably lead to the most elaborate and expensive suicide ever. Unless…uh, oh, my head is already starting to hurt.
Time travel has to be impossible — i not, everyone involved would eventually succumb to terminal headaches.
singfoom
@? Martin:
Fixed that for you.
Miss Bianca
@singfoom: I’m reading “Fool” by Christopher Moore, right now – since I’m playing Lear’s Fool this summer, the lead actor figured it would be useful dramturgy for me. it’s also a lot of fun. ; )
Schlemazel Khan
@Mnemosyne: Huh, I guess I don’t remember that part. Revelation was never my fav, too much like a bad acid trip. Thanks for the correction
@TriassicSands: WOW! Thanks, I will get a copy.
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: That’s my favorite book of his, enjoy!
@TriassicSands:
Schlemazel Khan
@AnotherBruce:
I had not heard that, thanks. I am still not a fan but it is nice to know he is not totally around the bend.
rikyrah
@bemused:
They never sold them any policies. They lied about the policies and hid it in hatred of others, and other bullshyt. Now, the rubes fall for it, but nobody but a crazy azz minority actually supports the bullshyt that the Koch’s want, which is why they lie about what they really want to do.
Miss Bianca
@Major Major Major Major:
I might too, if I had the slightest damn idea what it meant. ; )
TriassicSands
@Mnemosyne:
Wouldn’t you say that they don’t just hate “other women,” but rather (or also) they hate women — maybe even the idea of being a woman. Self-loathing is a terrible thing.
Or maybe that isn’t what you mean.
I wonder how many fundamentalist Christian women take their blame for the original “fall” seriously and both accept the blame for making a mess of things as well as feel guilt or disgust for being responsible. It would be a heavy burden if one took it personally (and seriously).
Mnemosyne
@TriassicSands:
I remember reading a fantasy novel by L. Sprague de Camp where the hero ends up in a world ruled by Norse gods. When they descend to Hel (one L), the hero is surprised to find out that it’s actually the *coldest* place in all three worlds. Because, duh, people in Nordic countries aren’t going to think that a really *hot* location is the worst they can imagine.
April
@Ella in New Mexico: man, this sounds tough for you! My family has been crazy fundamentalists since the 70s so I only feel shame for them, not a loss of them like you have somewhat described. At least they still seem caring. Mine make up stories about how everyone knows Mexicans are lazy criminals and Democrats sacrifice babies at Planned Parenhood. Or they disagree with my having my ectopic pregnancy terminated, reminding me I need to submit to Gods will, which I guess means no healthcare? I am curious to see if they are backing trump, thinking his vulgarity would repel them, but I suspect hate will win out. I will not call my family evangelical, because to me that should mean sharing good news. They are fundamentalist, nasty people I started my life with. You, however, have somewhat lost good people you would want to keep. I am sorry for that.
Emma
@? Martin: They vote as if they did. Or haven’t you looked at the Republican platform?
Miss Bianca
@Luthe: The Catholic Church also has the Jesuitical tradition going for it – and while you can say bad things about the Jesuits, the one unshakeably *good* thing you can say about them is that they take the notion of grappling with questions of faith – and being able to argue your position – very, very seriously.
Ella in New Mexico
@Betty Cracker:
I’ve always thought that the capacity to hate someone was directly proportional to your ability to love them, eg., “I have a love-hate relationship with X”.
But, not having respect is rooted in the fact you don’t even think someone is important enough or of equal value to yourself to give two fucks about, unless, of course, they’re useful to you in some material or transactional way.
So maybe he’s right–Drumbf , as a full-blown, diagnosable Narcissist doesn’t “Hate” women– he has no capacity to really “love” in the first place so how can he hate? Nor do fundamentalist religious NJ’s– because they don’t even think women’s issues or needs matter, outside of how they are transactionally or materially useful to them. They just want to “take care of” us so we can be useful.
So Drumbf adn RWRNJ’s don’t hate us: they just have a total lack of RESPECT for us as human beings.
singfoom
@Miss Bianca: Great book. Enjoy it. Then watch Ran to really run Lear through the different interpretations.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
OT but I’m seeing more and more comments on FB and elsewhere like this person’s – Dear Bernie – thanks, but I’m done.
Also, in Puerto Rico today, when asked about the Nevada shit show, Sanders walked away and wouldn’t answer. What a fucking all talk useless fraud. Who will be able to convince him to shut his shit show down?
TriassicSands
@Major Major Major Major:
Well, that seems to open up a whole new world for the grammar Nazi.
April
@rikyrah: I read this morning about Koch funded Econ classes in lower grades teaching that it is good that companies sacrifice lives in their pursuit of profits. Cheap good made without regulation can enrich your life, don’t you know, and if a few lives must crack to make that omelette, well, thank the Koch corps for your breakfast and eat up! They are trying to train future voters to accept their sociopathy straight up, no mealy mouthing around!
singfoom
@Ella in New Mexico:
IMHO that’s a distinction without a difference and it’s functionally equivalent. When you don’t respect someone as a human being, why should you treat someone as a human being?. See, you know, everything going on around transgender people being able to poop in peace right now. And when you don’t think you should treat someone like a human being, then you get into really dangerous fucking territory.
Jeffro
@MattF:
I was surprised to see him directly compare it to eating a slice of watermelon and saying he loves African-Americans. I mean, we all saw that, but Jeb? saw it too? Almost sounds like the kind of guy who’s ready to start his own Freedom Party, if you ask me…
Mnemosyne
@Schlemazel Khan:
That’s where insomnia came in handy — the broadcasts from the Worldwide Church of God are fascinating because they really do stick with the exact wording in the book and don’t believe a lot of the dogma that built up over centuries. They’re still bugfuck crazy, but it’s interesting to see them debunk all of the other Protestants.
@TriassicSands:
Both/and. Look at someone like Phyllis Schlafly, who clearly wants to think of herself as superior to all other women. Or the really extreme case of Camille Paglia, who seems to be a misogynist lesbian, of all things.
There’s a healthy dose of self-loathing at the bottom of it, I’m sure, but the main (conscious) drive is to prove that you’re better than other women — smarter, tougher, prettier, whatever — and therefore deserve everything you have.
Trollhattan
@cleek:
Recall hearing Noam declare before the Afghanistan invasion that we were only doing it to secure the path for a pipeline. After rolling my eyes back into seeing position I decided as a geopolitical strategist, he’s probably a fine linguist. I won’t press Levenson for faculty anecdotes, but if he’d care to share that would be fine, too. (Would rather hear Tom Lehrer stories, but I doubt their paths ever crossed.)
Miss Bianca
@AnotherBruce:
Well *that’s* damn big-hearted of him, ain’t it? Gotta say it again, cuz, you know, No Laugh Too Cheap: “With friends like this, who needs enemas?”
Trollhattan
@Jeffro:
I’ve got all these damn BRINKS TRUCKS! orbiting my house that I’d be happy to send JEB!’s way.
Jeffro
@Major Major Major Major:
Now, that was an excellent read. Funny and made you think, too.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: Word, my sister friend.
Jeffro
@Mnemosyne:
Great point – it certainly is a variation on Cleek’s Law and not indicative of their actually follow the tenets of their (or any) religion.
Unless that religion is, “IGMFY”, of course.
Major Major Major Major
@Jeffro: If you haven’t checked out the rest of Moore’s oeuvre I recommend it.
Miss Bianca
@singfoom: “Ran” is actually my favorite Kurosawa film. I was planning on a re-watch because, you know, any excuse, really. Altho’ I don’t recall they had a Fool character – his role seems to be subsumed into other characters.
Jeffro
@rikyrah: Maybe the donor meant “educated” on their policies as in “re-educated” in the gulag sense.
Schlemazel Khan
@Luthe:
The Methodists were founded on the belief that good works were required. It was a response to the indulgences sold by the Catholic Church as “get out of hell free” cards and the early Protestant belief that only faith could save.
Of course they became the secular arm of the KKK after the ACW but you know.
aimai
@? Martin: Again, you just don’t know what you are talking about. There are a lot of female evangelicals and fundamentalists who are more misogynistic than the men in their communities. Patriarchy and authoritarianism are a toxic combination and both result in an extreme need to control children (the heirs to the system) and women (as potential wives and incubators as well as workers). You should read about this crap, sometime, from women who have lived the life in the community. You will actually then be able to address the totality of the reality which is that many kinds of women: disobedient women, fallen women, sexually active women, women who are unapologetic about their abortions, liberal women, women of color, atheist women, muslim women are all very much attacked and despised unless and until they “convert” and submit.
Ella in New Mexico
@April: I’d say you have the worse situation, definitely. I’m so sorry.
They still love us! And they mostly keep their opinions to themselves since 2008 when I got really angry and told them they sounded like bigots and I was TERRIBLY disappointed in them…
But every now and then they slip up. My daughter turned 21 in March, and they sent her a beautiful card with a check in it. After saying how proud they were of her and how much they missed her and that the springtime flowers in their yard were popping up so beautifully she had to close the note with– “Grandad and I just mowed the lawn and now we’re sitting her watching tv before dinner. I really fear we’re going towards Socialism–you’re not voting for that Bernie Sanders are you because he’s a SOCIALIST!! And Hilary is such a flawed, tarnished woman. She’s not qualified to be President because of all those people she killed in Banghazi. Have a Happy Birthday, Dear!”
We all nearly rolled on the floor in hilarity in the restaurant when she opened the card and read it to us. :-D
TriassicSands
@Schlemazel Khan:
I hope you enjoy it.
Trollhattan
@Miss Bianca:
“Ran” is the only one I saw on first release in a bigass theater, and I was utterly drawn into the spectacle. Would love to revisit it.
bemused
@rikyrah:
Right! If they had actually educated the base, been up front, about their policies, they would have had Trump or a Trump clone gumming up their scam much sooner. They are so disingenuous and willing do anything for more money & power.
They should have seen something like Trump coming.
Jeffro
@Trollhattan: Send him some sample letterhead, with his name on it. Freebies always help close the deal.
singfoom
@Miss Bianca: If you haven’t, make sure you catch Dreams. It’s a lot of short stories, but for pure cinematic beauty nothing beats it.
Cheers
Miss Bianca
@Ella in New Mexico: Wow, if you and she had really wanted to create a shitstorm, have her write back a nice note: “Thanks for the check! I was kind of short this month because I donated all my spare cash to the Bernie Sanders campaign, so this really comes in handy!”
But then, I am a bad person.
Omnes Omnibus
@? Martin: I think that this is one of those times where one might want to listen to the women who are speaking.
Miss Bianca
@singfoom: Oh, I haven’t seen that one in years, but I’ll never forget “The Fox’s Wedding” sequence! I should add it to the list!
@Trollhattan: Me, too. I remember wandering around the streets of New Haven in a daze afterwards – I could have been mugged and I don’t think I would have noticed.
Gelfling 545
@joel hanes: always amazes me how enthusiastic they are about public prayer – one of the relatively few things he actually said not to do.
AnotherBruce
@cleek: Well I guess that you want to give an alligator indigestion because of a guy who recommends voting for Hillary. Whatevs. I’m just pointing this out because srv’s post was a bit misleading. Such a surprise!
Trollhattan
@Jeffro:
“JEB! 2016–This time we MEAN it, gosh darn it!*”
* or…maybe not, what do you all think?
Jeffro
@bemused:
They can’t, and they won’t, because they’ll never feel like they aren’t delivering on pocketbook issues. The Kochs and their ilk really do believe that they’re leading the masses to a better way…a way that just happens to also deliver billions into the Kochs’ pockets.
What’s that line again – something about it being very hard to get a man to understand something when his paycheck depends upon his not understanding it? Usually it refers to people lower on the economic ladder, but even billionaires are not immune.
Major Major Major Major
@aimai: I think, just guessing, that what Martin’s trying to say is that ‘hating women’ is an action/state of mind separate from ‘buying into a patriarchal notion of women as things to be controlled’, possibly in the same way that ‘being racist’ is distinct from ‘advocating for and supporting policies that enrich the (mostly white) wealthy and disproportionately immiserate the (mostly black) poor.’
bemused
@April:
Jesus. Ectopic pregnancies are extremely dangerous. Did they actually think it would have been better for you to die? That’s just insane.
Jeffro
@Gelfling 545: Right, that and accumulating massive amounts of wealth…somehow that is now a sign of God’s favor, instead of something that makes it exceedingly hard to get into heaven…
Origuy
@Mnemosyne: The Compleat Enchanger with Fletcher Pratt
terry chay
@gogol’s wife:
Of course not. Evangelical Christians includes most African Americans.
Cacti
@cleek:
This.
I’ll never understand why this genocide denier continues to be treated like an oracle by the left fringe.
bemused
@Mnemosyne:
Yes. I think most women have met their share of jealous, competitive (not in a good way) women. They want to be at top of the crowd. Schlafly worked, went after fame & power and got it but she didn’t want other women to do the same.
Suzanne
@aimai: Word. Plenty of women hate other women. Lots of women have decided to claw their way to the top of the social strata by buying into beauty ideals, behavior ideals, economic bullshit, acceptance of a submissive role in their relationships, etc, and they can be really hateful to those who can’t or won’t compete. It’s what happens when they decide that they are going to win at patriarchy (hi to my favorite admirer) by being the prettiest and marrying the richest dude rather than trying to dismantle the hierarchy in the first place.
Schlemazel Khan
@bemused:
WRONG! If they had been honest and up front about what it is they want to do the mobs would have been at their door with torches & pitchforks in about 30 minutes.
Origuy
@Miss Bianca: Have you seen the 1974 production of King Lear with James Earl Jones?
Major Major Major Major
@Cacti: Fact-impervious hardline anticolonialism is a feature on the far left, not a bug. (Especially in Europe. I know, we aren’t talking about Europe.)
terry chay
@AnotherBruce: Showing he is politically clueless and should be ignored such issues. You can’t run a state-by-state “who to vote for” strategy in a national election. It didn’t work for the Whigs in the the 1800’s, the Naderites in 2000, nor the #NeverTrump faction today.
And people criticize K-thug for being politically impractical!
(Not to denigrate his Sanders support, just the “in a swing state.”)
Mnemosyne
@schrodinger’s cat:
OT, but did you know that Mira Nair has a major new film coming out from Disney? The Queen of Katwe, about a Ugandan girl who became a chess champion. Apparently her husband Mahmood Mamdani is Ugandan.
Miss Bianca
@Origuy: No, I haven’t! I am collecting versions to watch and that one will zoom to the top of the list! Thank you!
bemused
@Jeffro:
Yes, they’ve made their justifications to get what they want. Some of them probably believe their own fairy tales.
I truly believe many of the filthy rich are no different than cat or trash hoarders. They have an illness, can’t stop collecting money no matter how much they have.
Mnemosyne
@Origuy:
That’s the one! Along the same lines, I bought a copy of Marvin Kay’s The Incredible Umbrella, but I’m a little afraid to read it in case it doesn’t hold up as well as I remember.
Chris
@Ella in New Mexico:
DING DING DING DING DING!
There are several things conservatism had in the George W. Bush years that it did not in the Reagan years, but this might just be the most important one: conservative hate media going mainstream and easily accessible. People in the old days just did not have access to as constant a source of Two Minutes Hates. And that builds on itself; the longer you’ve been listening to it, the more radicalized you get.
It’s why, while I would never deny that Obama Derangement Syndrome has a fuck-load to do with his race, I also think the next Democratic president, whoever he was, was doomed to face an even more pissed off and intransigent right wing. Fox and the rest got off the ground halfway through the Clinton years and was still learning when he left office; Obama was coming when it would have had eight more years to radicalize the right wingers, and other propaganda outlets (the entire right wing blogosphere for one) had also appeared and started doing the same in the meantime.
Schlemazel Khan
@TriassicSands:
Just looked – the book I was thinking about was “God: The Ultimate Autobiography” by Jeremy Pascall. So this is a different book than the one you pointed me to. I might still read it as it sounds interesting.
smith
@? Martin: They love their women the way they love their livestock. They’ll take care of them, sure, but when it comes right down to it, you know whose needs will be met.
Origuy
@Miss Bianca: I watched that when it was first broadcast on PBS. I think it was the first Shakespeare I’d actually seen performed. The PBS website has a list of other notable Lear fllms.
bemused
@Schlemazel Khan:
Perhaps but it could take a long time for that info to sink into the rube’s minds and believe it. They’ve clung to their Fox marinated news for years so it wouldn’t be easy for many of them to discard what they’ve always believed.
Miss Bianca
@Origuy: better and better! I love BJ, I gotta say. Come for the political venting, stay for the culture vulture-ing! : )
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: Nope, hadn’t heard of it.
Sairat is the movie that has me intrigued right now. Sairat (Wild) a movie set in rural dusty Maharashtra is taking India by storm. Released last month, it is a story of young love that dashes against the rigid caste system. It has a great score as well.
You either bow before the rigid system or be prepared to lose everything.
Chris
@Luthe:
That is indeed one of the big dividing lines between Catholicism and fundamentalism, and one of the things that, when dabbling in a fundie church for a little while as a late teenager, ultimately sent me packing with a renewed appreciation for the Catholic Church. (Souring on the Catholics happened to; it just took a little longer).
Ella in New Mexico
@singfoom:
Yes, I agree. I was being semantically facetious because Martin was arguing that RWC’s don’t hate women.
But in some ways, I’d almost rather you hate me rather than have no respect for me as a human being. Because with hate there’s the capacity for it’s opposite, at the very least.
gogol's wife
@Ella in New Mexico:
Nicely put.
gogol's wife
@Mnemosyne:
And Lupita Ngyongo is in it — it looks good.
Ella in New Mexico
@Miss Bianca: Holy shit you’re psychic–she had just donated $25 to him which, quite frankly, she couldn’t afford (end of the semester funds running low, so it was really MY money…:-D)
scav
@smith:
Furthermore, note that they’ll willingly employ their livestock as well, but in no way consider them equal. There’s no reason their binders full of women aren’t battery farms of chicks.
Jeffro
Maybe OT, maybe not…my note at #170 made me want to relay this thought:
I think it was a week or so ago there were dueling columns by Krugman and Brooks. Brooks was off in la-la land pointing out that Clinton’s fingernails were insufficiently trimmed or something stupid like that. Krugman was busy pointing out that the reason Democrats have gone with their ‘establishment’ candidate while Republicans went for the ultimate non-establishment candidate was because the Dem party largely delivers, or at least tries to deliver, for its constituents. The GOP – the version run by Koch ideals and billions – certainly does nothing of the kind, not on cultural issues or economic ones.
If we look back at Obama’s two terms, the achievements (or even efforts) that seem to have gotten the biggest notice have been (imho) the cultural ones like marriage equality. The Right sure seems to frame even things like climate change initiatives and Obamacare as culture-war issues, in order to keep the focus off of how much good they’re doing for people’s economic situations.
I think it would do the Democrats some serious good to refocus a bit on those pocketbook issues, noting them as a cohesive set of policies designed to put more money in working families’ pockets. The Ds still need to be the party of equality and inclusiveness and diversity, absolutely. But I’d worry a lot less about Trump in 2016 – or more importantly, the Ryans and Rubios of 2020, especially if/when the next recession hits – if the Ds would really hammer the crap out of the GOP on how little they do economically for the 99%
Chris
@bemused:
I think this is one of the biggest stories of this election cycle – the brutal wakeup call to Republican elites who were convinced for so long that they and their voter/activist base were on the same wavelength. They had some justification for believing this; for nearly thirty years, in every presidential election, the “establishment” candidate was also the one who ended up winning most of the votes. And apparently, the “establishment” had convinced itself that this was because the “base” understood that these people were simply the smartest and best fit to lead the nation, or alternatively because they really cared deeply about The Deficit and all that other stupid shit – and not because the “establishment” candidates had thrown out enough racial and cultural rhetoric to satisfy the voters. At long last they’re being confronted with the fact that… no. That’s not what was happening.
Mnemosyne
@schrodinger’s cat:
This is definitely a Big Hollywood Movie with Big Oscar Bait Stars (David Oyelowo and Lupita Nyong’o). I hope they don’t fuck it up.
Ironically, these days it’s kind of a risk for a big studio to do a small film with an all-black cast (heck, a non-American cast — he’s British and she’s Kenyan).
Betty Cracker
@Suzanne: LOL! That was hilarious — thanks for sharing!
Mnemosyne
@gogol’s wife:
It’s definitely Oscar Bait with a capital “B.” And I’m fine with that. As someone who works in Hollywood, it looks like a giant dare to the members of the Academy to ignore it — as long as it’s actually a good movie. Mira Nair is usually good, so fingers crossed.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: I will take a look. I am more into Indian film industry these days rather than big Hollywood. There is a lot of interesting stuff happening both in Hindi movies and Marathi movies. Lots of stuff with interesting and socially relevant story lines. Also a focus on female characters.
Hollywood seems to be churning out comic book hero stories and same old drivel. I did like Spotlight though. Jungle book was pretty blah.
Ella in New Mexico
@Jeffro:
THIS is what all of us should be doing now, regardless of what’s going on in the D primary. That’s gonna work itself out, but we still have a chance to start converting all the people who are Bern-sadders, Gary Johnson/Jill Stein leaners, undecideds or Info-lite Trumpers.
They need to start hearing how Trump is full of shit, all over the map with his ideas, how he lies and will never be able to deliver–pretty much like his party of NO.
Enough with the time waste hand wringing about Sander’s wife’s failure to have taken “Accounting, Budgeting and Fiduciary Law for Public Administrators 501”.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: Yes, my Lord – that really was funny. Too bad the guy is so into Cruz, and therefore qualifies as a RWNJ, because it’s so refreshing to see a right-winger who can actually string a couple sentences together into a coherent thought.
Chris
@aimai:
If it helps, I recall a long, long, looooong Facebook argument (I wasn’t part of it, I know better by now; just reading it) between my Southern Baptist seminary trained cousin and his wife on the one hand, and a fair number of their Facebook friends on the other, on the subject of the whole “wives, submit to your husbands” thing… and his wife was absolutely on the same wavelength as him that no, women should be lower ranked, so to speak, in the family, and of course it’s important that the man listen to the woman and take her opinions and well being into account, but at the end of the day someone has to be the Decider and it has to be the man because… reasons.
It was one of the most fucked up conversations I’ve ever read (and I don’t think I’ve ever lost that much respect that quickly for anyone I knew personally). But it did confirm, as if that was needed, that misogyny absolutely has a female following, not only WRT other women but themselves, too.
(Also too, Ann Coulter: “I think [women] should be armed but should not vote … women have no capacity to understand how money is earned. They have a lot of ideas on how to spend it.”)
Schlemazel Khan
@Suzanne:
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah . . GASP . HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
. . GASP . thanks
Mnemosyne
@schrodinger’s cat:
I am glad that the people who sign my paycheck are taking some of that crazy “Captain America: Civil War” money and putting it towards a small movie that won’t gross even a fraction of what the superhero movies do. Ideally, that’s what you want a studio to do: take (some) of the money from their big “tentpole” movies and also make smaller, riskier projects. If this gamble pays off (in reasonable box office success and awards), hopefully other big studios will follow suit.
But I’ve definitely gone down the rabbit hole of following a particular genre or a particular country’s films, and that’s really fun in its own right. Hollywood films are now, what, maybe 1/3rd of the world’s output? At best?
schrodinger's cat
@Chris: This horrible idea has a Hindu equivalent, where the husband is to be respected as a God. Pati Parmeshwar, that’s why many women do not address their husband by his name.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@The Dangerman: Reading about the Green Book for the first time was horrifying. I cried. It’s no less horrifying seeing new references to it.
Everyone should know about it, especially the “but the civil war was a long time ago and let’s just all forget & forgive the whole slavery thing” types. The sad thing is that it probably won’t have the same effect on them as on us.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: I am not judging Disney at all. I just don’t get the comic book stuff, that’s all. Indian film industry is the largest if you count the number of movies made/year. Hollywood still leads in $$ earned, though.
Chris
@schrodinger’s cat:
Yech. Now that you mention it, the exact phrase in Christianity is that “the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church.” Very similar mindset, by the sound of it.
Mnemosyne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Comic book stuff plays in every language, and Hollywood has the money and talent to do the best special effects.
I was really surprised that “Zootopia” is doing really well worldwide. I wasn’t sure it would translate.
But my point was, there’s a lot of really good and interesting stuff being made outside of Hollywood, so there’s no reason to restrict oneself to what’s playing at the suburban multiplex.
Amir Khalid
@AnotherBruce:
He’s far from the first Bernista to say it, of course. The idea (as I understand it) being that in a swing state, you must vote for Hillary or the Donald will become President; but in a safe Republican or safe Democratic state, your vote will likely not matter so it’s safe to indulge your Bernista pique and refuse to vote for her.
Mnemosyne
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
The Autry Museum of the American West had an exhibition about Route 66 a few years ago, and they had a Green Book and an explanation of what it was in one of the cases. It was good to have that reminder that, no, automobile travel was not always safe for everyone, but Black people weren’t going to let that stop them and came up with a workaround.
Woodrowfan
@Snarki, child of Loki: if Bush II was Caligula, and Trump is Nero, does that make Obama Claudius?? That doesn’t seem fair…
Major Major Major Major
@Amir Khalid: Some of the resident hard-liners here will say that this is predicated on the flawed notion that a vote not for Hillary is a vote for Trump, as if Hillary is ‘entitled’ to a vote, or… something. I’ll admit that I can’t follow the logic (such as it is), but they were quite vocal a little while back.
Chomsky said the same in 2012 about Obama, so he’s obviously a corporate stooge who buys into the two-party system though, also, drooooones!
Death Panel Truck
Drumpf: “The Bible means a lot to me, but I don’t want to get into specifics.”
Translation: “I don’t know what the fuck’s in this book, and I don’t fucking care.”
Suzanne
@Schlemazel Khan: SERIOUSLY. My God, I just cannot stop enjoying their sadz SO MUCH.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: Streaming and You Tube has made it possible to keep up with what’s happening in the Indian film industry in spite of not being any where near a major population center, in my case. I can pick and choose what I want to watch too. Because good stuff is rare and crap is everywhere.
glory b
@Schlemazel Khan: There’s also the tradition of the labor priests who championed worker’s rights. I remember Monsignor Charles Owen Rice, who was the priest at Holy Rosary Church in Pittsburgh, and who died in 2005 at the age of 96, I think.
He helped lead the Heinz pickle worker strike, marched with MLK :), and was well known in the Pittsburgh area.
Chris
@Suzanne:
The highlight of this election campaign will be how many conservatives have cried before it even came to the general.
bemused
@Chris:
I don’t know if they will try to come up with a Plan B but the RNC autopsy went nowhere.
Suzanne
@Chris: I hope someone makes a highlight reel and posts it to YouTube so I can watch it whenever I’m having a rough day.
Jack the Second
@srv: He, uh, does know that burning your party registration card doesn’t actually do anything? It’s not illegal and it isn’t how you disassociate yourself with a party and no one really cares?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Woodrowfan: Plus the problem is that Combover Nero just doesn’t have the same alliterative flair.
Millard Filmore
@TriassicSands: Paradise, martyrdom, virgins … I never understood all that. You get to spend eternity with 75 virgins, plus or minus a few, for being a martyr. Eternity is a pretty long time, 75 does not seem like enough. What happens when you use them all up? Do they recycle and become virgins again?
Are they virgins because they can run faster than you? Are they virgins because YOU can run faster than them?
Chris
@bemused:
I remember a time after the 2008 defeat when a few cautious articles came out vaguely suggesting that a lite (very, very lite) version of the Eisenhower era realignment might be necessary for the GOP. Needless to say, by the end of the winter, any suggestions to that effect had been completely buried.
@Suzanne:
Not a video, but I’ve always been fond of this one (from after the ACA finally passed in 2010): https://www.pinterest.com/pin/549368854519606914/
Major Major Major Major
@Jack the Second: I thought the same thing. Also WTF does anything have to do with Vietnam
Chris
@Major Major Major Major:
Well, there isn’t a literal connection, Dude.
J R in WV
@Amaranthine RBG:
I work hard to understand what you intend to say in most of your comments. This one is particularly meaningless. Working from my comment I suppose you are trying to imply that Martin Luther King Jr twisted religion when trying to gain equal rights for his people, an implication I can hardly disagree with more.
You can’t even spell the man’s name correctly as you try to show that he – what? – wasn’t sincerely religious? Wasn’t working for the greater good? No, none of this makes any sense at all. We erect statues of MLK because he was a hero, who expected to die for his good works.
I feel, like most thoughtful people I know, that Martin Luther King, Jr was a martyr for freedom and equality, which are the founding principles of The Unites States of America. If you disagree with this, then you are probably a hateful person with irrational beliefs that opposes everything the founding documents of the nation stand for today. A crazed and hateful racist. . . . What else could your thoughtless and ignorant remark mean?
J R in WV
@? Martin:
I have a very sweet fundamentalist neighbor, who when she calls us on the phone, always introduces herself as “Hi, this is Benny Hill’s wife…” (name changed to protect the innocent.
Now tell me, is this a fulfilled, free person, or the oppressed owned wife ? Interestingly, she supports the family and her work provides their health insurance. How many fundamentalist wives are just this brainwashed?
Feathers
@Suzanne: and then there are the anti-feminists who believe that the nasty feminists stole all their patriarchy goodies. I never have the heart to point out that there are lots of patriarchy goodies out there – but there’s that whole “wanting to sell your soul to the devil, but the devil doesn’t want to buy.” Seriously, I had a co-worker who thought that it was because of feminism that guys held doors open for hot young marketing execs, but not menopausal secretaries. She had a serious, aching crush on Rudy Giuliani and did TONS of phone banking for Scott Brown and Romney.
J R in WV
@srv:
I don’t know why this guy bothered to register as a Dem, and I can’t tell and don’t care why you thought this completely inane remark bears any relation to reality. Totally unhinged, he for doing whatever he did and you for thinking that it meant anything to anyone.
Brainwashed fools trying to make sense of a world that doesn’t exist except in their heads and on Faux News. My Dad was a Rockefeller Republican and white businessman who marched with members of the NAACP in our little town in the 1960s, and quit the Country Club and other social groups because they were segregated, but was a bitter Faux News follower as he neared his death in the early 2000s.
The fairness doctrine may have saved the nation if it hadn’t been destroyed, along with so many beneficial regulations and institutions, by the Reagan Republicans.
pat
@TriassicSands:
Or. more accurately, men rigged the entire game, having invented a God who would do the rest. I am an atheist, but I’m not arguing here that there is no God, only that the God of Christianity, as currently presented in the Holy Bible, is a male invention designed to put men in charge. Why women would buy that nonsense is beyond me.
bingo. The bible is nothing more than a collection of fairy tales written by men who were trying to invent a system of controlling other people
TriassicSands
@Millard Filmore:
I’m with you — it’s all very confusing. What makes a man think he’s worth 75 (or whatever number of) virgins? And what’s so special about a virgin? She (or he) is only a virgin until the virginity ends. Then what? Do those men worthy of 75 virgins discard them one by one as they become used? What an incredibly horrible view of the worth of another person. Once I stick my penis in you you’re no longer of any value to me. Man, what the hell is wrong with my penis?
You’re right 75 is hardly enough for eternity, but then where the hell did all those virgins come from in the first place. Is the female to male birthrate ratio that out of whack? Are they the adult (or adolescent) forms of girls who died as children? Or can they be children? Is the ideal virgin in heaven 12 years old? Certainly not 50. It just gets creepier and creepier. It’s hard to find any actual respect for females as human beings in that kind of thinking. And what about the female martyr/hero? Does she get 75 handsome young studs? Surely, in the case of men it wouldn’t be better for them to be virgins, since what kind of a reward is it to have all your lovers fumbling around, not knowing what to do?
Since the possibilities ought to be endless — after all, God can do anything, right? — why not say that heaven can be whatever each individual wants it to be. You want 75 virgins? No problem. You want waterfalls and pools of cool, refreshing water? You got it.
If you’re after year-round ice fishing, well, why not? If you’re a man and your four divorces left you with little desire to spend eternity with women, then enjoy your exclusive, all-male dining club. Why does heaven have to be one thing for all people?
Of course, once you open that door, then maybe heaven is just virtual reality and if you pull back for the big picture, everyone is plugged in sort of like in “The Matrix.” Maybe real heaven is just painless non-existence.
Note: the comments above are about heaven for one religion. The same kind of questions could be asked about any version of heaven, though, depending on one’s own cultural heritage some may seem more plausible than others. Certainly, the rules for getting in seem to be different from one religion to another.
Ron Rizzo
@Schlemazel Khan: Try Bookfinder.com. There are many copies available. “God, a Biography,” by Jack Miles
Millard Filmore
@TriassicSands: “the rules for getting in seem to be different from one religion to another.”
… See you in heaven if you make the list …
— REM – Man on the Moon
Steeplejack
@Schlemazel Khan:
You can get a brand spanking new copy of God: A Biography at Amazon.