Trump's closest advisor with a history of dirty political tricks was in contact with the outlet that distributed the emails hacked by the Russians. https://t.co/mB89OqMefc
— Dan Pfeiffer (@danpfeiffer) March 13, 2018
EXCLUSIVE: Roger Stone, a Trump ally, told *two* friends he knew of a trove of hacked emails that would damage Democrats in 2016 — months before the public knew they existed. Me w/ @thamburger @jdawsey1 @shaneharris . https://t.co/ZEtB0vRCeZ
— Carol Leonnig (@CarolLeonnig) March 13, 2018
I doubt I’ve been a good enough person for the Universe to reward me with video of Roger Ratfvcking Stone being dragged off in handcuffs, but then, I’m not the only person praying for his downfall, either…
In the spring of 2016, longtime political operative Roger Stone had a phone conversation that would later seem prophetic, according to the person on the other end of the line.
Stone, an informal adviser to then-candidate Donald Trump, said he had learned from WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange that his organization had obtained emails that would torment senior Democrats such as John Podesta, then campaign chairman for Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.
The conversation occurred before it was publicly known that hackers had obtained the emails of Podesta and of the Democratic National Committee, documents that WikiLeaks released in late July and October. The U.S. intelligence community later concluded that the hackers were working for Russia…
Stone’s possible connection to Assange has been under scrutiny since the 2016 campaign, when he made public claims that he was in contact with the London-based WikiLeaks founder. Since then, Stone has emphatically denied any communication with Assange or advance knowledge of the document dumps by WikiLeaks, which embarrassed Clinton allies and disrupted the 2016 campaign. WikiLeaks and Assange have also said they never communicated with Stone.
Potential contacts with WikiLeaks have been probed by federal investigators examining whether allies of President Trump coordinated with Russians seeking to tilt the 2016 race. The president has repeatedly denied any collusion with Russia.
Peter Carr, a spokesman for Mueller’s office, declined to comment…
Nunberg told The Post that the questions he was asked by Mueller’s investigators indicated to him that the special counsel is examining statements Stone has made publicly about WikiLeaks.
“Of course they have to investigate this,” he said. “Roger made statements that could be problematic.”…
A very chastened Nunberg seems to have accepted that Mr. Mueller will not be dismissed by threats or bluster. And he may even have realized that his “mentor” never actually respected him…
Roger Stone told the Post that "I think I will go to London for the weekend to meet with Julian Assange" was just "a throwaway line" to get Sam Nunberg off the phone. https://t.co/EQdjD9qunq pic.twitter.com/ETg3kfWYuD
— Natasha Bertrand (@NatashaBertrand) March 13, 2018
Just in: Director @morganpehme confirms Trump ally Roger Stone was trying to contact Julian Assange in 2016: pic.twitter.com/aaqWuixMYc
— TheBeat w/Ari Melber (@TheBeatWithAri) March 13, 2018
I’m looking forward to the mea culpas of every single person who used a Russia – Roger Stone psyop to wound good people in order to hurt Hillary’s campaign. Including every reporter who gleefully led the maelstrom. https://t.co/gSpN1LDoLN
— Neera Tanden ?? (@neeratanden) March 13, 2018
Baud
C’mon, Ecuador, how long are you going to tolerate this crap on your soil?
BruceFromOhio
I’ll settle for Roger Dodger in tears at his sentencing. Now Assange in handcuffs, that would be fun.
Heh, not gonna happen in this life. Best to look forward to something else.
Tick tock, motherfuckers.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Conor Lamb everyone’s reminder that Blue Dogs are GOOD things to have around in districts that aren’t going to elect a John Yarmuth, a Keith Ellison, a Nancy Pelosi.
May the purity progressives who’ve been fucking things up royally from 2010 forward SHUT THE FUCK UP.
debbie
Who will take down Julian Assange?
debbie
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
As long as they show they are willing to stand up to Trump, they should be welcomed in.
polyorchnid octopunch
@debbie: My feeling is that Assange is going to end up being found inside that embassy dead of a “he just died”.
Baud
@debbie: Standing up to Trump is insufficient if they are bashing our other allies also.
NorthLeft12
Sorry Neera, but I don’t believe you have been paying attention for the last twenty odd years or so. The modern “journalists” of the MSM have no time to look back on their failures or mistakes. They are relentlessly moving forward with the stories that those same reliable sources have been feeding them for decades. It’s all about retaining that all important access.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@NorthLeft12:
Between “Noam Chomsky says” and “Sy Hersh has a bombshell report”, I think I’m burnt out on old white guys on both right and left.
Libraryguy
Hi everybody,
Libraryguy here. I want to send a big “thank you” to the folks who responded to our Bleg last week! The last of the orders should have arrived at people’s homes by now.
Your support means so much to Rhea and Benny and me. Balloon Juice has the _real_ best people!
Cermet
This means nothing since it is not proof in any legal sense. It helps but only if there is proof Stone (putin’s Kock brother sucker) followed up and did see/communicate with the KGB stooge and professional rat fucker Assange.
BruceFromOhio
@debbie: If he would merely go for a stroll outside the Ecuadoran embassy, the Brits will gladly provide the means.
debbie
@Baud:
I’d rather have dissenting opinions than lock-step allegiance.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
republicans are in SHOCK that working class voters aren’t grateful for their bread crumb tax cut.
Baud
@debbie: Then the dissenters should have no problem handling my criticisms.
MomSense
I’m wondering if the dirt will also come out on Snowden and GG given what we now know about Assange and Wikileaks.
MJS
@David Merry Christmas Koch: That’s “some” “working class” voters. There was still way too many idiots who voted for Saccone, for no other reason than he’s a Republican, and they loathe Democrats. I’m very happy with the apparent win, but I weep for my state.
Baud
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
@MJS:
Do we have a voting breakdown yet?
OzarkHillbilly
@Cermet: Seeing as Manafort has been indicted for fraud, tax evasion, and working as an unregistered foreign agent, Stone could be as remote from Assange and Putin as the south pole and still end up in prison for the rest his life. Note, I don’t for a second believe that he wasn’t working with Assange and Russian agents.
Kay
That was exciting. I watched until he was 700 up and went to bed. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part but in VA, then AL and now PA people were saying the D candidate was a “good person” or “seems like a nice guy”
Maybe there’s a backlash to mean-spirited assholes. That would be the most profound repudiation of Trump (and Trumpism) you could get. Rejection of them as people. It’s also what Trump can’t change. He can lie about his position on guns or taxes or whatever but the fact that he’s nasty and petty and untrustworthy isn’t going to change.
debbie
@Baud:
Of course, as long as everyone remains mindful of the common good.
Kay
I have trouble with the Roger Stone theory because he seems like exactly the sort of person who would brag about knowing Assange. whether he knows Assange or not. He may be too horrible to craft a theory around. He’s not even credible on an admission.
MJS
@Baud: The only one I’ve seen is this:
Good, smart people – Lamb – 100%; Saccone – 0%
Racists, drooling idiots, etc. – Saccone – 100%; Lamb – 0%
Patricia Kayden
@Baud: Googled it and don’t see that Lamb has been declared the winner as yet.
rikyrah
Good morning Everyone ???
Baud
@debbie: You can count on my support of Dem candidates in November and again in 2020 and for the foreseeable future.
Baud
@Patricia Kayden: There will be a recount.
Baud
@MJS: Margin of error – 0%.
ThresherK
Nunberg thoiught Roger Stone respected him?
If I were that deluded, when my wake call came my response might be to get drunk and go on elebenty national TV shows, too.
MJS
@Kay: I’m having trouble understanding why it’s so important. Yes, it would indicate that an unofficial advisor to the Trump campaign was a party to the hacking of the emails, key word being “unofficial”. I don’t see how it’s as damaging as an email from someone actually on the campaign (Trump Jr.) agreeing to meet with representatives of a foreign government for the sole purpose of getting dirt on Hillary, then lying about it, and getting Trump to participate in the lie.
SFAW
Since I’m approximately dimwitted at least some of the time: what laws would Stone be charged with violating? “Collusion”-related things? Lying to the FBI?
I would love to see that motherfucker spend the rest of his unnatural life in Attica or Angola or Alcatraz (so to speak), but what would they get him on?
germy
This must drive TeamDrumpf nuts, how quiet Mueller’s people are.
It must be inconceivable to them, how someone could go quietly and competently about their work, without drama.
SFAW
@debbie:
Vladi Vladimirovich and his merry pranksters, with the
lead pipenovichok, in theLibraryEmbassy.germy
Holy shit, greenwald retweeted john cole.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@MomSense:
For whatever reason, Greenwald is a very malevolent, troubled soul in the Milo spectrum. He always seems drawn to authoritarian white supremacy, but accomplishes his goals seemingly from the left.
I see Snowjob as much the same.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: And lawsuits.
germy
@SFAW: i thought Vlad only killed people who opposed him. Why would he go after julian?
Baud
@germy: Trump’s election was normalization of U.S. torture. I assume, therefore, GG was all-in in support of Hillary. Right?
Gin & Tonic
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Snowden is a straight-up Russian asset.
debbie
@Baud:
I know. I wish I could believe others would too. Hope springs eternal!
aimai
@Kay: Not at all–he has been a dirty trickster and a machinator for decades and one of the things he trades on is doing it more or less out in the open–its like advertising for him. Its not that he is indiscreet or a mere braggart its that they never thought that Trump would win so they didn’t think this would ever get investigated–does anyone ever impose fines after a lost election for lying/false representations during the campaign?
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@germy:
This is, however, why we have confirmation hearings where the nominee answers questions and minds can be changed.
Baud
@Baud:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37982000
Kay
So you would have Obama voters who are opposed to Trump and they come out, and then some WWC who are those “I like this nice young man” people, and then you get the wishy-washy suburban “totebaggers” who are horrified by Trump (now) because even though they got a tax cut he’s such an asshole they’re embarrassed by him OR he’s so erratic he makes them fearful.
Now that Trump is firing everyone who disagrees with him we’ll see more erratic behavior and my guess is “comfortable” people – people who weren’t scared off by the racism because it didn’t affect them- will start to feel threatened by it so that last group might get bigger.
OzarkHillbilly
@SFAW: Tax evasion for starters. You just know he’s guilty of that. ;-)
germy
@Baud: GG is pissed, PISSED at drumpf’s latest appointments. But of course he’s convinced himself things would be no better under shrillary.
I love how, no matter who drumpf appoints, GG always brings it back around to Hillary and Obama.
Every. Time.
SFAW
@germy:
Because he can? I figure that, at some point, Assange will have outlived his usefulness to Vlad, and leaving him alive can lead to problems — not sure what exactly they might be, at this point — that Vlad would prefer not to have to deal with.
Baud
@germy:
And that’s why he shouldn’t be treated as credible even (especially) if he says something that we agree with.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@germy:
As a potential future liability as a leaker.
Current proposed sanctions include a SWIFT ban. That would lock down oligarch money – something that would present the only real threat to his criminal reign. If Assange talks, it is a virtual certainty to happen.
SFAW
@germy:
“No better”? More like “a skillion times worser under Hitlary.”
germy
@SFAW: If Vlad kills Julian, watch his followers blame the U.S. deep state. Or even Hillary.
I’m serious.
Baud
Absolutely nothing on Hawking’s death on the news. Amazing.
bystander
Lamb has declared victory and he is on Moanin’ Joe, top of the hour, if you can bear it.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
Sort of. I don’t think Republicans have lost more than a sliver of voters. What I see is that liberals are angry and motivated in a way they’ve never been before, and previously ‘not paying attention’ people are now paying attention good and hard. And yes, they’re reacting to mean-spirited assholes. It’s been shoved in their face in a personal, threatening way.
rikyrah
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Bravo ??
bystander
@Baud: Front page, above the fold, of WaPo electrons.
OzarkHillbilly
@germy: SSDD.
Betty Cracker
@Kay:
I think maybe you’re onto something there, Kay. Hey, we gave nasty, petty, braggadocious assholery a turn at the wheel to backstop the nice, graceful, humble mensch Obama years, but it didn’t pan out. :-)
Baud
@bystander:
I was watching morning news, national and local. Glad the papers are covering it.
bystander
@germy: JoeScar just announced that because some Dems were OK with Jr’s torture program, all Dems must now shut up.
Baud
@Kay:
You saying I should drop out?
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@germy: Is this the same griftwald who, as a lawyer, defended white supremacists who tortured Latinos.
Baud
@bystander:
Tomorrow, he’ll be saying that the Dems are intolerant of policy differences.
Fuckem.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@germy:
Do bears shit in the woods?
Greenwald will be the lead baying hound. You could have video of the assassin leaving the Russian Embassy, using a Russian government developed poison agent to do the job, and the guy returning to the Russian Embassy, and Greenwald will be blaming Hillary and the Deep State.
Kay
@MJS:
Stone would be the go-between. It’s the same issue. The go-between doesn’t have to be “officially” on the campaign. Inserting a non-campaign person between Trump and Russians doesn’t matter at all as far as coordination. They can’t defend by saying “we only coordinated after someone offered us a meeting, therefore it isn’t coordination”. I think a conduit is almost a given.
I think Giuliani knew about the emails before they were released. That really opens up a can of worms because someone in law enforcement told him. I would like to see him interviewed. I think he’s the conduit between the NY Field office FBI Trumpists and the Trump campaign.
Betty Cracker
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Yes, may they all get lock-jaw. I foolishly got into a Twitter argument the other day with a pair of assholes who are convinced that Doug Jones is every bit as awful as Roy Moore. Thank dog for the “mute conversation” button. There’s just no point in interacting with people so wholly alienated from facts.
SFAW
@germy:
Does “his followers” refer to Assange’s followers? Or Jill Stein, Shitgibbon, and company (i.e., Putin’s followers)?
Makes no difference either way, I guess. Or, as Ozark put it, SSDD. And not sure how anticipation of that sentiment would keep Assange alive, anyway. And blaming Hillary might be considered a two-fer, in some circles.
SFAW
@Baud:
I don’t recall anyone ever calling you “mean-spirited.”
James E Powell
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Minds maybe, Republicans’ votes not so much.
rikyrah
@bystander:
He can go anywhere he wants on his victory lap.
OzarkHillbilly
@Frankensteinbeck: Also a lot of trump voters are dispirited by the actuality of trump. Most would never vote for a DEM but the idea of voting for someone who would support trump is so sickening to them, they just stay home.
Frankensteinbeck
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
I don’t hold defense lawyers responsible for who they defend. I do hold Greenwald responsible for fellating white supremacists in his role as a supposedly liberal pundit, and generally ignoring civil rights while somehow being a civil libertarian.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Oh, I don’t know. The left really loves ‘The US has it coming because we murder people all the time.’
rikyrah
@bystander:
Nope ?
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Baud: I saw that turnout/enthusiasm was down in working class areas, while at the same time those precincts reported double digits shifts away from gop.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
We have a moderate Republican magistrate here. She’s very good at her job. Trump’s recklessness bothers her. She’s comfortable. She wants someone steady in there. Uncertainty makes her fearful. Yesterday she was shaking her head at the “revolving door”- as he gets increasingly unhinged those people will start to pull away. They want a government that runs in the background because they’re fine with the “status quo”- they prefer the status quo. It’s predictable.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
@Frankensteinbeck:
of course you can, they’re the ones who decide who to represent. and in griftwald’s case he represented them pro bono for 5 years.
germy
rikyrah
@germy:
Whatever ?? Assange
Kay
@germy:
Who knows what these people know, though. They’re the kind of people who say shit like this to impress other people.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Did she complain during the Administration of 44?
Baud
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: Public defenders can’t get judgeships because of the prejudices against representing criminal defendants. There’s enough to hang GG with without perpetuating that way of thinking.
rikyrah
I am tired from staying up to watch results. But, it was good. A R+11 district. Buckle up, DNC . Go after everyone R+15 and less. Don’t let up.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
It wasn’t like he was a public defender or random appointee – he sought out both civil and criminal cases for assholes that he could represent for free.
You don’t see him doing comparable things on the left.
rikyrah
Any tweets from Dolt45 about the PA election?
Kay
@rikyrah:
I think she voted for Obama in ’08. There was a minor scandal because the law firm where she was a partner had both Obama and McCain signs out front and everyone else in that firm are rock-solid Republicans- she’s the most likely vote-switcher. I thought it was amusing.
FlipYrWhig
@Frankensteinbeck: Greenwald said multiple terrible things about immigrants and mutiple complimentary things about white racist nutbars. He’s a loathsome specimen who somehow fooled people into thinking he’s a person of conscience rather than a self-promoting, self-hating little pustule on humanity.
Kay
Mayor of Pittsburgh. My daughter and son in law live there and they really like him. It cracks me up that he sounds like a normal voter here- “tell me what’s going on!” :)
Frankensteinbeck
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
The ACLU does that as well. It’s part of the ethos of an actual civil libertarian. Both of them.
Fortunately, we don’t need his history as a lawyer. He’s demonstrated himself to be racist as shit in his career as a supposed activist and legal scholar to the masses.
EDIT – @FlipYrWhig:
Yep! My point exactly.
Matt McIrvin
@germy: I am almost to the point of emulating Reagan’s first rule: thou shalt not speak ill of any Democrat, even when it is 100% morally justified. Because if you do, somebody will try to use it to crack the party in two and elect Republicans. We’re in something like a war.
I don’t know, I probably value honesty too much to completely go there. We need to be able to conduct primary campaigns and engage issues. But it seems like we get ratfucked so much by people who just want to divide us. Greenwald wouldn’t be retweeting Cole if he weren’t ragging on Democrats somehow.
OzarkHillbilly
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch: Not necessarily. Public defenders take all cases that cross their desks. Also a lot of cases get assigned by judges. Not that that necessarily applies to GG or any specific case.
ETA @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Beat me to it.
Elizabelle
@Matt McIrvin: Excellent comment.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
Democrats are able to do it when they’re opposing, but not defending. It’s a real weakness. To make real progress they’d need to add consistently but when they win they go back to infighting so they can’t hold together long enough. It’s not an accident they lost 2 in a row where they could have had a 3 term President. They fractured with Gore and again with Hillary.
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: Nope. His timeline still has the tweets about the Marine “Core” up top, though someone came along and corrected that embarrassing spelling error. Honest to dog, “Marine Core.”
matt
@bystander: let’s put Joe in an Iron Maiden and see if he changes his tune.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay:
IMHO the “nice guy” thing plays as “ethical,” because both are modes of decency.
I think we’re going to have some conflicts among Democrats when fiery people run against nicer people. The fiery people will be championed by “the left” because they always fall for that shit and there will be visuals of cheering crowds, and the nice people will go around talking to small groups in community centers and the better-looking ones will be championed by Big Media, and “the left” will decide that they hate them SO MUCH because the nice people don’t know how to fight and that everyone loves fighting and yelling, and their guys will lose and they’ll moan about how the Establishment and Elites had it in for them, herp derp derp.
Baud
@Kay: Agree. It’s a systematic problem, and we do ourselves a disservice if we pretend everything is fine.
germy
@Matt McIrvin:
Definitely. GG is making a point here.
Betty Cracker
@germy: Why does Greenwald assume DiFi will back Haspel? Feinstein once blocked Haspel’s promotion to run clandestine operations because of the torture issue.
Kay
@FlipYrWhig:
That’s good, if nice plays as ethical, because Trump will be vulnerable on ethical. He hasn’t reached “culture of corruption” yet, that tipping point, but he will. GOP corruption played a huge role in the wave in 2006 and Trump himself knows it’s potent. It’s what he ran on. It isn’t just the sleaze, either. It’s the capture. That capitulation to the NRA Trump did was epic. Not such a maverick after all.
MomSense
@germy:
People love to say we should prosecute but I don’t see how that was even possible at that time. They also wanted to prosecute the bankers at the same time even though much of what they did had been made legal. I’m trying to imagine the actual how of that with the justice department in shambles when Holder went in. The Obama administration couldn’t even get Senate Democrats to fund moving Gitmo detainees to Federal prisons. Does anyone else remember the stink about trying terrorists in New York?
I love the idea that in hindsight we coulda shoulda but you have to forget the political climate and how difficult it was to even get the Recovery Act through Congress when we were bleeding 700,000-900,000 Jobs a month.
germy
@Betty Cracker:
That assumption fits GG’s opinion of Democrats. And if she doesn’t back Haspel, he’ll find a Democrat who does, and then tweet nonstop about it. He’s got an agenda, and he picks and chooses what he pays attention to.
He hasn’t commented on the PA election. He had nothing to say about the Roy Moore defeat. And if something happens with Vlad that doesn’t fit his worldview, he’ll go silent or focus suddenly on his neighborhood politics.
Frankensteinbeck
@MomSense:
I did not support prosecuting the Bush regime for torture then, and in hindsight still think I was right. The reason is that the case would instantly go to the Supreme Court, and they would not only let Bush and Cheney off, they would enshrine legally some horrific precedent. It’s not like anything done to Bush or Cheney would stop or even slow down the Trump administration. They’re the textbook case of criminals thinking they won’t get caught. Republicans lean heavily to that, being naturally criminal. However, making torture legal would mean they could kick it into high gear without any obstruction from even their own laziness and incompetence. The potential losses vastly outweighed the gains, and the odds of success were low. Prosecution was not worth it.
And yeah, while there were some crimes committed around the edges, the shit that caused the meltdown was totally legal. I was horrified to learn that companies flat-out lying to their investors about the credit rating of the default swaps was not legally fraud. And the robosigning was a civil, not criminal violation. The mortgages theoretically could have been canceled, but alas the judge ruled against that.
Kay
@Baud:
I hate to say it but it’s ego. We don’t have a lot of team players because we have lots and lots of people who want to be leaders. The Ohio governor’s race is a perfect example. This doesn’t come from some good place, where they’re standing for principle. It comes from a place where they want to run things and if they can’t they’ll just anoint themselves. There’s this fucking infuriating sensitivity to “you’re not the boss of me” in Democratic politics that is both self-pitying and aggressive. To be a team player is to be “average” and our people aren’t average, they’re all extraordinary! It’s exhausting. For years I took them at their word that they “can’t bear” to do this or that but now I feel like the point is to tell me what they can’t do. I don’t care.
Gin & Tonic
@Kay: It pisses me off that “hey, I’m not very good at math” is always presented as regular-guy endearing, but “hey, I’m not very good at readin’ & ritin’ ” just means you’re dumb.
FlipYrWhig
@Kay: Exactly. I think the nearly miraculous thing Trump was able to do, and perhaps no one will be able to duplicate for a long time, was to get his evident asshole nature to project as “honesty” via “he says what’s on his mind,” “there’s no filter,” etc. That was his secret weapon. Hillary Clinton was guarded and careful, by contrast with Trump, and add the FBI investigation and whatever people think the email story was and you get an image of deep dishonesty and corruption.
Zinsky
Good God, I hope this reptile (Stone) goes to prison and is anally raped every day he is there for all the damage he has done to America and the American political system.
Frankensteinbeck
@germy:
Christ Almighty, does he. That dishonesty is what drove me away from him. The big eye-opener was Al-Alwaki, when he quoted an article about a judge’s decision. He completely left out that the judge ruled the targeting as a terrorist legal, quoted the judge saying the legality of the situation disturbed him, and presented it as if the court had decided Obama was denying Al-Alwaki his constitutional due process.
Baud
@Kay: You’re in point, Kay. It’s “Every Man a King” run amok.
Gin & Tonic
Theresa May trying to eat her cake and have it too. Expelling some Russians, canceling Lavrov’s planned visit, not sending officials to World Cup. But not going after Russian money in London. There we have her values.
Frankensteinbeck
@FlipYrWhig:
The majority of whites, and that includes the vast majority of national journalists and pundits, think his racist screeds are basically correct, only impolitely phrased.
Kay
@Baud:
I’ll just give you an example. The fracking people in Ohio. I go to a Sherrod Brown event and I (sadly) end up at their table and these people have convinced themselves that this is the main issue in a senatorial race and someone is conspiring to keep it off the main menu. They’re not even plain aggressive, then they would just be single issue pains in the asses. They’re sighing and whining and bitching. How do you convince yourself that you alone have the pulse of the nation?
Betty Cracker
@germy: I get that he has a knee-jerk, anti-Democrat bias, and lord knows DiFi doesn’t have the most progressive record. But she actually is on record opposing a promotion for Haspel. A competent journalist would at least Google DiFi and Haspel before predicting she’ll do something the record shows she’s unlikely to do. Greenwald either doesn’t know about DiFI’s previous opposition to Haspel and is commenting from ignorance, or he does know it and is deliberately deceiving readers. Either way, it’s further validation of my decision to ignore the self-righteous twit.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Gin & Tonic: I was told there wouldn’t be any math.
mai naem mobile
I hope the whole lot end up in low staffed maximum security(not supermax) prisons with crappy healthcare housed with truly thuggish people- murderers,kidnappers and rapists. The whole lot from Orange Dunghole on down.
Elizabelle
@Kay: Agree with what you’re saying about infighting, but recall:
Gore won, though, and so did Hillary. With Gore, it was the Palm Beach ballot, which has disappeared down the media memory hole, since it does not fit the narrative. Gore lost — what, 2,500+ votes — that went to Pat Buchanan (!) due to terrible ballot design.
Without the Palm Beach ballot, Jeb! and Katherine Harris did not get close enough to steal.
I am pretty sure we will learn, in time, that Trump did not actually win the Electoral College; that there was cheating.
The media couldn’t stand Gore, and belittled him mercilessly. Worked to W’s favor. The FTF NYT and cable news took Hillary down, although they lack the reflective traits to understand that.
We have a huge problem with the wired for Republicans (or whatever they’re calling “moderates/centrists”) media. So there’s little ground to lose to infighting.
GregB
Let’s start a Go Fund Me to buy Roger Stone a barrel.
It will be great to see Roger spend his golden years in prison.
Betty Cracker
@Gin & Tonic: Hard to see how Putin’s takeaway won’t be that he can assassinate people with impunity anywhere in the world. Trump sure as hell won’t oppose him.
Elizabelle
@Kay: Good points about ego and the prima donnas. (Dennis Kucinich, we are looking at you.)
I hope Ohio gets Governor-elect Richard Cordray. Last night with Conor Lamb has got to have brightened his campaign staff. Good candidate and strong campaign go a long way.
Cheryl Rofer
@Gin & Tonic: She mentioned strengthening laws to seize Russian money in Britain. NATO has made a strong statement. Let’s see how this plays out.
Betty Cracker
@Zinsky: I utterly despise Stone but don’t wish rape on anyone.
Cheryl Rofer
FlipYrWhig
@Zinsky: Dude, no, that’s not funny and it’s not cute.
Matt McIrvin
@Betty Cracker: Huh, I assumed, foolishly, that he was referring to some kind of quote with DiFi actually backing Haspel. He’s just pulling an assumption out of his butt?
cosima
@Gin & Tonic: Was she asked about that and said that she won’t, or was it not brought up? I’d imagine that making an announcement related to going after Russian money would cause complete chaos in the industry, so I would hope that there are actually plans to do so, but will be conducted (and discussed) on the down low. A huge number of people in the UK now know that Russia is endangering citizens (and expats) through carrying out assassinations, but very few of them are savvy enough to know that London (and therefore the entire UK) is rotten with dirty Russian money.
ETA: I see that my question has been answered/addressed by others. Thanks. Now off to walk doggy before Little C comes home from school).
debit
@Zinsky: I seem to recall you expressing your enthusiasm for prison rape in other threads. Maybe you should consider keeping your jerk off fantasies to yourself.
Gin & Tonic
@Cheryl Rofer: I want to be outraged, not patient, and you are spoiling it.
Matt McIrvin
@MomSense:
And the True Left still blames Obama for that.
Immanentize
@David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch:
In the VAST majority of criminal cases, defendants do not have private defense counsel. They have appointed counsel. And if you are appointed to represent people, you do not get to pick and choose your clients. It is a very good system (or it would be if it we’re adequately staffed and funded like it is in DC).
Betty Cracker
@Matt McIrvin: IIRC, she said something mealy-mouthed that amounted to not rejecting the nomination outright, said she’d keep an open mind, ask tough questions in the hearing, etc., which is pretty par for the course for senators before a hearing, I think. But the one time DiFi had to vote for Haspel for another position, she voted no because of the torture issue.
Matt McIrvin
@FlipYrWhig: Also, sometimes the nice guys will lose, and it’ll be taken as proof that they should have been bigger fire-eaters.
Cheryl Rofer
@Gin & Tonic: Sorry ’bout that. I’ve always found revenge best served cold. ?
Gin & Tonic
And Jeremy Corbyn shows himself to be a fellow traveler.
germy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAelokWy0Fg
Cheryl Rofer
If you want to be outraged, wait until Trump tweets that maybe he’ll make up his own mind about this, tyvm.
Peale
@cosima: perhaps complete chaos in the industry that is facilitating the transfer of this money is what is needed.
Gin & Tonic
@Cheryl Rofer: Note the wording: “Freeze Russian state assets where they threaten UK” is some mighty weak sauce.
Cheryl Rofer
So Russia will expel some number of British diplomats. I’m seeing speculation that Britain would meet that with expulsion of the Russian ambassador.
The Russian Embassy in UK Twitter account has been, as the Brits say, cheeky. It’s not something that May would be expected to address in this speech, but I’m wondering if that will be shut down. Russian embassy Twitter has been undiplomatic – the embassy in the US occasionally indulges too. One more of Vova’s little games.
Cheryl Rofer
@Gin & Tonic: It might be all they can do under current laws. I don’t know UK law on this.
WaterGirl
@Zinsky: What you wrote is disgusting. Please consider asking for your comment to be deleted.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker: yes, DFi has already kept Haspel from moving up the CIA ladder, why slag her?
As for Haspel, I really wonder how she is seen within the CIA. Is she considered a loyal agent who protected the agency and other agents in a very difficult moment? Or is she seen as one of the few politicized agents who went with Cheney’s illegal programs against the advice of internal agents with more knowledge and experience?
I am really curious about this question but have no way to find out the answer.
WaterGirl
@Gin & Tonic: That certainly isn’t the picture that was painted in the two Lawfare articles I linked to last night. They really seemed to think she would take real action. Sigh.
FlipYrWhig
@Matt McIrvin: Shh, don’t upset them by mentioning how Wilmer, The Leftest Leftist Of Them All, voted on that.
Cheryl Rofer
I think it’s a strong response. They’ve referred the matter to the OPCW and UN as well. NATO has made a strong statement. The US ambassador to NATO has made a strong statement (watch out for another firing). The biggest thing that is lacking is unambiguous support from the US President.
Immanentize
@Kay:
Look in the mirror and see a white male. Voila!
WaterGirl
@Matt McIrvin: And not even labelling it as an assumption – it’s very misleading; what he wrote makes it appear that DiFI has ALREADY come out in support of her.
Betty Cracker
@Immanentize: The hearings should be interesting!
OzarkHillbilly
@Cheryl Rofer: I think trump’s unambiguous support for Putin is a given by now.
satby
@FlipYrWhig: I assumed he obstructed Obama on that. True to form.
WaterGirl
@Cheryl Rofer: Lawfare had two articles that relate to this yesterday. The articles made is sound like there is a lot more she could have done. I linked to them in one of last night’s threads, but I could like again if you are interested. They should also be kind of obvious if you go to the lawfare website.
Immanentize
@Cheryl Rofer:
I think the support for the Magnitsky Act is in part an effort not to punish Russia, but to shore up Britain’s banking systems before Brexit. A Swiss financial crimes prosecutor I know says (jokingly a bit) that after Brexit, the Swiss and the Brits will have to compete for the money laundering jet set.
Kristine
@Libraryguy: received my wood carving yesterday. It’s lovely.
FlipYrWhig
@satby: He had many righteous concerns for the thing he ended up doing. It’s how you can tell he’s honest. He’s so wonderful and virtuous!
Not like those other people. When other people vote for things, it means they support every iota of them, which is how you can tell they’re dishonest. :/
rp
@FlipYrWhig: GG and his cultists argue that every bad/hypocritical/unpure vote by Wilmer was justified as a reasonable compromise. e.g., voting against the Russia sanctions was ok because he was really focused on Iran. But an unpure vote by a Dem is the worst thing ever and shows them to be hopelessly corrupt.
Immanentize
@Betty Cracker: agreed. Quality TV. If the Turtle allows hearings….
The fact that Pompeo supports her suggests she is a Cheney-mold political warrior. And Clapper decided years ago to support every agent involved in that dark episode, regardless what internally the Company thought about it. Maybe if she is, as I suspect, not trusted inside the Company, we will see some Pappa Bush figures on the op-ed and Sunday Talk circuit throwing shade which could be followed by some discreet leaking.
oldgold
Who invented the pie shaped table?
FlipYrWhig
@rp: I’ve noticed.
oldgold
Sir Cumference
boatboy_srq
@BruceFromOhio: Would be delicious if they had some of the nerve agent from Salisbury, no?
chopper
@Baud:
greenwald is certainly anti-torture, as long as he can blame it on obama or another democrat.
polyorchnid octopunch
@germy: Because he knows too much, that’s why.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: In the blogosphere I think the narcissism of small differences gets exaggerated by our sense of what’s interesting to argue about. Nobody can repeat the same rebuttal to the same completely idiotic right-wing argument 100 times without getting bored and annoyed. But objecting to another liberal’s version of liberalism, over trade policy or the importance of identity politics or whatever–that’s a person you can actually have a discussion with, and a potentially interesting argument. And then the disputes get heated.
The right just gets thought of as an unalterable natural feature of the landscape. But some of them are always there, waiting to troll the left into some big schism and take advantage.
chopper
@germy:
trump himself could directly authorize torture of people, even americans, and greenwald would change the subject to DiFi or Obama.
Kay
@Immanentize:
If you’re in a coalition you don’t get to say your issue is important and everyone else’s is not. Then you’re not in a coalition and you can’t run the Party, or the Sherrod Brown meeting, because it’s a coalition party, and the pieces have to fit just right or we lose. Anti-war people feel strongly about not killing people. But so do healthcare people. They can’t peg someone else’s issue as lower or less principled and they do that consistently. Someone could completely consistently and honorably support Hillary Clinton although Hillary Clinton voted for Iraq because health care saves lives.
SFAW
@Zinsky:
Isn’t this the second time in a week that you’ve wished that on someone? Apologies if I’m confusing you with a different commenter; but if I’m not, don’t you think you might give that “thought” process a rest, for, say, about 80 years?
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
That’s a good point. I get annoyed at how snobby it can get. People can like a candidate just because they like him or her. This idea that all voters are carefully compiling spreadsheets on issues and if they aren’t they’re somehow lesser voters is just snobby. It isn’t ever true anyway. Bernie voters talked all the time about how honest and real he was- those are character and personality appeals. They’re not issue-based. You’re hiring a whole person not a policy paper.
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
I align more closely with Bernie than I do with Clinton and character is actually what turned me off. He was calling her corrupt. When she called him out on it he dissembled. If you’re going to call someone corrupt you have to specify those allegations to their face when they call you out. It was one of the weakest things I’ve ever seen from a candidate. I cheered when she did it.
rikyrah
Black Muslim firefighter endured years of racist, religious harassment from co-workers. When he spoke up, he was arrested: https://t.co/pk99hDOufA pic.twitter.com/mwZktzHcS5
— The Root (@TheRoot) March 14, 2018
Immanentize
@Kay: I agree. I am amazed at how far “one issue voters” claim the microphone — anti-abortion voters, gun voters, religious moralists in the GOP; and last election it was the economic/class arguers who tried to break the coalition by saying gender, race, environment, etc. did not matter compared to their one issue which should take precedence over all. They were certain they had the pulse of the nation on their side, but ignored the communitarian realities of large politic parties. Obama got it, however.
Kay
My young’un had to decide if he was gonna walk out of school today. This is a very conservative area so it may be a little lonely.
He once told me he “likes to fit in” and this is true- he’s easy-going. I told him most people do- that’s why we call it “fitting in” – it’s not fitting out! :)
Cheryl Rofer
@WaterGirl: I’ve got the Lawfare articles. One explains the diplomatic language May used on Monday and is a good guide to her speech today. It also lists some possible responses. The other is more about responses.
It looks to me like May has chosen a reasonable range of responses. Both articles stress that the response be “necessary and proportionate.” Depending on how Russia responds, May might add more. Russia will undoubtedly expel at least 23 UK diplomats. I saw speculation that if they go beyond that, Britain might expel the Russian ambassador. Imposing too much all at once leaves no room for further responses.
Sanctions will work only if others join in. I’ve seen support statements for Britain from several other EU countries, but it’s not clear that would extend to sanctions. It’s probably more than I’ve seen, because I was away from the computer most of yesterday. And May has no assurance that the US would join in.
May mentioned other actions she’s not talking about.
All in all, looks appropriate to me. Let’s see how it goes.
Elizabelle
Standing with the high school students on their walkout. Good for them. This gun madness has to end.
Jeffro
Check it out: the top five “stories” on Fox “News” dot com right now
5) Some 62-year-old former child actress passed away
4) Former Astros prospect caught on camera smacking around his girlfriend (yes, he’s brown, why do you ask?)
3) ‘lone wolf’ teen killer caught
2) Elizabeth Warren “doubles down on Indian heritage, but story doesn’t add up” (because geez is there anything more pressing than that?)
and
1) student protests/walkouts re: gun control going on across the country
Nothing about Roger Stone.
And most certainly nothing about Conor Lamb.
Mike in DC
Greenwald is thrilled by the CIA torture thing popping up again, because it allows him to ignore the Skripal story.
Amir Khalid
@Jeffro:
Maybe Fox news believes that if they ignore it, their audience will never know it happened, and will go on believing the Republican party is invincible.
p.a.
Sadly, the Stone/Assange meet doesn’t pass the smell test: Stone told 2 friends about it. How could human sludge like Stone have friends.
afanasia
@Matt McIrvin: If we have a Democratic majority in the house this November, the anti choice or anti gun control views of a few blue dog Democrats are virtually meaningless. So right now, I’m very comfortable voting for Dem candidates I would have opposed once upon a time.
MisterForkbeard
@Jeffro: I STILL don’t understand the NA heritage kerfluffle for Warren. It amounts to: She was told she was partially NA due to an old family “scandal” back in the day and believed it. She never traded it on professionally or otherwise so far as anyone can tell, but did mention it occasionally.
And now Fox is on it’s…. what, 8th freaking year of coverage?
afanasia
@Kay: I’m the mother of another easy-going child who likes to fit in – which, counterintuitively, means she’s the one child in our very white neighborhood who does the whole birthday party/mall/sleepover circuit with native girls on the nearby rez. They used to call her Barbie on the bus, but she roared with laughter. It wore them down. Wanting to get along can have good results, as I’m sure you know…
FlipYrWhig
@MisterForkbeard: Jeez I hope it never came up in an email, considering that “email” is the sexiest word in political media. :/
MisterForkbeard
@FlipYrWhig: Right? I’m not understanding any of the ‘fervor’ behind it. I get that they’re slamming her because she’s a Democrat, but I don’t know how they’ve managed to stretch ‘coverage’ of it out even half this long.
EDIT: But then, that’s how I see 90% of Democratic ‘scandals’. There’s nothing there or it’s so minor it doesn’t matter – but media/republicans eager for a scalp go after them.
Jeffro
@Amir Khalid: They did the same thing after the NJ and VA governor’s races last year. Not even 10 seconds of coverage.
@MisterForkbeard: Yeah, 8th or 9th. I guess they’d like to stretch it into a credibility issue for Warren, meaning none of the things she says about Wall Street bankstas could possibly be true, and also therefore all Dems are complete liars and can’t be trusted with elected office. Something like that.
FlipYrWhig
@MisterForkbeard: I was talking to my wife about something similar last night. It started out as “why do Republicans get so wound up over Nancy Pelosi?” Because, honestly, what was the last thing Nancy Pelosi did that affected them in any way? Nothing. It’s based on nothing.
Long story short, we decided that Republicans are psychologically scarred from when female teachers made them feel bad for… something (running, goofing off, handing in bad homework, etc.) and they’ve decided that any woman who reminds them of a teacher is The Enemy. Hence the enemies list that prominently features Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, and Elizabeth Warren.
bjacques
@Mike in DC:
Greenwald has been completely silent about drone warfare since Trump got in, even though collateral casualties rose dramatically after Trump allowed field commanders to get sloppy with their targeting.
I can live with a few Blue Dogs too, because every Democratic kiester in a Congressional or Senatorial seat counts toward flipping control over all the committees in that particular house.
Gin & Tonic
@bjacques:
Exactly. Conor Lamb will not chair the House Intelligence Committee, but enough Conor Lambs and Adam Schiff will.
jonas
IANAL, so can someone explain how any of this puts Stone in legal jeopardy? Did he lie to the FBI about contacts with Assange or something? As far as I can tell, he seems to have known that Wikileaks had the stolen emails and were going to release them, but is there more to the story? Is the point that Stone’s relationship with Assange might be the collusion link with the Russians?
Hard to keep up with all this shit.
WaterGirl
@FlipYrWhig: They hope we are stupid enough to get rid of ur valuable Leader, that why. As a party, we have displayed that kind if stupidity before, so there’s no reason for them not to keep trying.
jonas
@FlipYrWhig:
Because in contrast to their own incompetent party leaders, when she’s in charge, she gets shit done. Liberal policies get implemented. They hate that. Plus, she represents San Francisco. Nuff said.
cosima
@Peale: Economic chaos vs. restrained & focused targeting? I’ll take the latter, particularly as we live in the UK and bank primarily here (though we still have US accounts, SS in the US, and our 401k/IRAs in the US).
FlipYrWhig
@WaterGirl: @jonas: I don’t think it’s even _that_ cognitive. I think it’s just that they feel demeaned and emasculated when confident women evaluate, or look at, or think about them. That’s why I think the weird intensity of hatred for that type is a teacher-based primal experience, and not girlfriend-based, mother-based, or wife-based.
Matt McIrvin
@afanasia: I’m fine with primarying them. But if you lose the primary you have to realize that your pet issue isn’t the only one out there and you need to push hard for the party’s candidate. And even in the primary campaign, there needs to be a line drawn short of “my opponent is morally unacceptable in this seat; I would do anything to defeat them”.
Matt McIrvin
@FlipYrWhig: A teacher, or Mom.
Matt McIrvin
@MisterForkbeard: She mentioned it in an academic context, at HARVARD. That in itself is sufficient to twist the whole thing into a lie about her being an affirmative-action cheat, and “affirmative-action cheat” is one of the hot buttons for American conservatives. If you ask a Republican about it, there is a very good chance they’ll tell you she lied about it on a college application to Harvard to get admitted as a student there!
Better: you can split the left over it, because the whole business raises interesting questions about pseudo-Native-American family genealogies and cultural appropriation. Which leads to wonderful counterintuitive things like Trevor Noah saying Trump has a point about Warren.
FlipYrWhig
@Matt McIrvin: I think it’s more teacher than mom, but there are overlaps, like in Ted Cruz’s quip about Marge Simpson. Judgy Mom.
Matt McIrvin
…And the other thing about Warren is, of course, you can rile up racists over it. Insulting her for being a fake Indian is an acceptable excuse to throw around jokey slurs about American Indians, which is like catnip to these people. That was 90% of it in the Scott Brown campaign, and with Trump; you can call her “Pocahontas” and do war whoops and wave tomahawks and shit, and when somebody calls you on it, insist you’re just raising legitimate questions and call for a DNA test.
cintibud
@germy: Wow, that is so beautiful – I have tears in my eyes. Haven’t heard that before. Thank you!
germy
@cintibud: I know, it took my breath away.
les
@FlipYrWhig:
I don’t believe this. What Trump did was no miracle; he said and showed out loud that racism is cool, and the deplorables didn’t give a fuck that he’s a dishonest, ignorant, small minded fool.
BellyCat
@Kay: Mayor Peduto is GREAT!
Progressive, well-liked, and a very down-to-earth guy.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: For me, the turn-off for Sanders was when his campaign largely pivoted from “economic justice for all Americans” to “101 ways the Democratic Party is unfairly treating Bernie Sanders”, this meta-issue that was largely irrelevant to beating Trump or making the country a better place.
But the tricky thing about “thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Democrat” is our own version of the paradox of tolerance: can you speak ill of a Democrat (or a quasi-Democrat) for speaking ill of a Democrat? I didn’t want to be too hard on Bernie for that reason. Probably the main thing is just to keep an eye on overarching goals and keep an internecine fight from becoming the main story.
FlipYrWhig
@les: True but there are people beyond the deplorables who voted for Trump because they thought Hillary Clinton was shady and Trump was an asshole but honest about it.
Matt McIrvin
@FlipYrWhig: Yeah, but there have been a lot of candidates like that, especially on the local or state level. Paul LePage, Rob Ford in Toronto (it’s not even unique to the US!) Usually they’re racists who are also assholes, so they’ll blurt out slurs that are considered impolite, and the reaction is “he says what we’re all really thinking!” People who are a little racist, but ashamed of those feelings, get to vicariously experience the fantasy of being able to say this shit and not be ashamed and get away with it.
Aleta
@Cheryl Rofer:
Related to Tr “making up his own mind”:
FlipYrWhig
@Matt McIrvin: Good point. I still think there’s a clean/dirty dynamic at play too but maybe it’s less than I imagine.
Kathleen
@Baud: Those were civil cases. Families dared to sue gg client. He referred to them as odious and repugnant.
BruceFromOhio
@afanasia: That’s a splendid child, and I hope that it serves her well in her life. And nicely done, Mom/Dad!
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@SFAW: Here are the reasons I can see:
1. Assange is an utter egotist–whatever he is involved in, it’s all about him, and only his opinions and feelings matter. He will also pursue satisfying his ego even when it is to his own disadvantage–even his short-term disadvantage.
2. Assange is pretty paranoid, and if he begins to feel at risk from Russia–justifiably or not–he will start looking for ways to sell Russia out.
3. Assange is, at the best of times, grandiose, a loose cannon and an unreliable ally. He can only be rented, you’re likely to discover he has no problems with joint tenancy.
Andrew O’Hagan was going to ghost-write a book for Assange. This project did not go well. O’Hagan’s discussion of events should give people some idea of how difficult and unreliable Assange can be. I can see Putin deciding at some point he was no longer worth the risks using him entailed.
J R in WV
@cosima:
Hi Cosima,
Wondering, what do you do with regard to health care in England? That’s a big stopper for me living abroad as I’m on Medicare, which won’t pay a penny for health care out of the country. I pay for both Medicare and a supplemental policy, but don’t know if that amount of money would cover one in the EU…
Were you guys British citizens before you moved to Briton?
Citizen Alan
@Kay:
I would say however that there is a difference between the two. Whatever one’s feelings about Al Gore, he was fairly blatant about turning his back on a significant portion of the Clinton coalition. Hillary, on the other hand, bent over backwards to hold the Obama Coalition together, but could not overcome hostility from divisive Willmer swine who insisted on viewing her as a demonic caricature.
Citizen Alan
@Matt McIrvin:
I don’t mind speaking ill of Wilmer because I don’t give a s*** about attacking so-called Democrats who are quite obviously Russian assets. I am now absolutely convinced that the Sanders campaign from day one was phase one of Putin’s plan to keep Hillary out of the White House. And I’ll tell the sanctimonious son-of-a-b**** that to his face if I ever had the misfortune to bump into him.
Tehanu
What amazes me about Nunberg — as indeed it does about all their minions — is that it seems that only now has he started to figure out that his bosses don’t give a shit about what happens to him. In fact, they’re actively hoping he gets in trouble so they won’t. For heaven’s sake, their entire world view is all about exploiting and kicking down, yet there they are, still madly cheering on their lords and masters. Leopards, faces, yadda yadda… how dumb do you have to be?