Vice Admiral (ret) Maguire, the Acting Director of National Intelligence and Senate confirmed Director of the National Counterterrorism Center, is testifying publicly before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) at 9:00 AM EDT this morning. HPSCI’s own live stream for you all is below. HPSCI has also now posted both the now declassified whistleblower’s complaint that touched all this off, as well as Michael Atkinson’s, the Intelligence Community Inspector General, letter regarding the complaint.
“The Committee this morning will be releasing the declassified whistleblower complaint that it received late last night from the ODNI. It is a travesty that it was held up this long.
“This complaint should never have been withheld from Congress. It exposed serious wrongdoing, and was found both urgent and credible by the Inspector General.
“This complaint is a roadmap for our investigation, and provides significant information for the Committee to follow up on with other witnesses and documents. And it is corroborated by the call record released yesterday.
“I want to thank the whistleblower for having the courage to come forward, despite the reprisals they have already faced from the president and his acolytes. We will do everything in our power to protect this whistleblower, and every whistleblower, who comes forward.
“The public has a right to see the complaint and what it reveals.”
If you want your own copies, I’m attaching them here. I’m just now digging into both – they’re not long – and will have more thoughts on them later today/this evening.
Here’s the whistleblower’s complaint:
20190812_-_whistleblower_complaint_unclass
And here’s the ICIG’s letter regarding the complaint:
20190826_-_icig_letter_to_acting_dni_unclass
Here’s the live stream of this morning’s testimony:
Open thread!
Cheryl Rofer
I’m reading the letters too, will post quick impressions.
It’s interesting that Trump wants the Ukrainians to investigate CrowdStrike, which worked with the DNC to trace their hack. Trump is not a detail person. Someone else gave this to him.
Joy in FL
Thank you for making all this easy to access.
dmsilev
I skimmed it just now. The very quick takeaway is that Trump’s blackmail-to-fabricate-Biden-scandal campaign was ongoing for months. Also, having a bunch of career intelligence etc. staff listen in on a call as normal and then only afterwards try to cover up the contents was deeply deeply Trumpian-level stupid.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: Manafort and Manafort’s attorney fed him that through Giuliani and the joint defense agreement. We learned this from Muray Waas’s reporting late yesterday. Manafort wanted revenge on two people and a pardon. The former were former Ukrainian government official Leschenko who turned information on him over/made it public regarding Manafort’s criminal actions in Ukraine. The latter was
AndreaAlexandra Chalupa, a Ukrainian-American former DNC staffer who has been falsely accused, as part of the disinformation and conspiracy theories based on them, of working her familial based contacts back in Ukraine to get oppo material about Manafort once he was brought into the campaign. According to Waas’s reporting Manafort believed that if he provided these Russian disinformation based conspiracy theories to the President, then he’d get a pardon after the President was reelected in 2020. Giuliani led him and his attorney on regarding this.Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: So it turns out that the Boss is Manafort, not Trump.
ETA: I haven’t read the Waas piece yet, was out most of last evening.
Betty Cracker
Was it Jared’s idea to release the whistleblower complaint too? Like Nikki Haley said, he’s a “hidden genius.”
Gin & Tonic
@Cheryl Rofer: That’s what I thought yesterday. There’s no way he’d know that name unless somebody fed it to him.
I doubt CrowdStrike is pleased with this turn of events. They are actually a well-respected company in the infosec community (full disclosure, I am a customer of theirs.)
Cermet
After reading the complaint, my impression of it indicated that the person was providing just “hear say”; as such, I simply do not understand why the WH withheld it and then released such damning telephone transcripts – even if heavily changed. That complaint is a nothing burger from a legal stand point so why provide the real smoking gun?
Betty Cracker
@Cermet: They’re stupid. I think it’s as simple as that.
mapghimagsik
Seems like a good time to give Manfort better protection than Weinstein got. I think its interesting they decided to use a highly classified system to try and hide their political wrongdoing. That kind of abuse puts all the information on those systems at risk.
bystander
I’m torn. On one hand I’d love to see serial impeachments of twitler, Barr and Pompeo. OTOH, efficiency urges one big impeachment.
Cheryl Rofer
I would not be surprised if the White House knows who the whistleblower is, from the contacts in their letter.
oldster
Why is this release of the whistleblower’s report described as “unclassified” rather than “declassified”?
Nerdy question, and not relevant to the important issues here, but since we have Adam and Cheryl in the room, there’s no better time to ask it.
TS (the original)
@Adam L Silverman: It is truly hard to take this in – especially in the light that the majority (if not all) republicans in congress continue to support the president*. Many thanks for all the explanations
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: It’s Alexandra who worked for the DNC and whom Manafort tried to take down. Her sister Andrea is the one who works with Sarah Kendzior.
clay
@Betty Cracker: He hides it very well!
dmsilev
Someone is Tweeting again, and appears to have discovered CapsLock:
I think we can all agree on the first sentence.
zhena gogolia
@mapghimagsik:
I think you mean Epstein. Weinstein is still with us.
chopper
@dmsilev:
so now we know what happened to birdzilla.
MattF
JWZ provides the tentacle version of that phone call.
Hoodie
@dmsilev: Was telling a friend that “Stupid Watergate” is an apt title for this affair. History doesn’t repeat, but it does rhyme.
clay
I can’t read this right now. What was “the promise” that Trump made?
mapghimagsik
@zhena gogolia: darnit, I did. Its too early here, and I’m bouncing between the complaint PDFs, this forum and discord. I need to focus on one. Discord is usually a goddamn wreck, to there’s that. Still, at this point, it seems like Manafort won’t get his pardon, and he really should start really singing.
Gin & Tonic
Ukrainian news reporting that the Supreme Court will be reviewing the legality of Viktor Shokin’s dismissal as Prosecutor General next week. Shokin is the corrupt prosecutor whom the US and pretty much everyone else wanted ousted back in 2016.
Hoodie
@dmsilev: The Republicans are doing just fine destroying their party by themselves. They really are idiots if they don’t flush this turd down the drain, as this is a golden opportunity to separate themselves from him. Nancy will keep the inquiry focused on this, and they can claim patriotism as the reason to take Donnie down.
mapghimagsik
@dmsilev: Interesting, and how are they supposed to fight? Is Mango Mussolini going for a last minute coup? I think he’s going to find most of his followers just like yelling at the TV and can barely stay on a hoveround.
JPL
@clay: This is pretty damning
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: Manafort isn’t the boss, but Manafort is both desperate and angry. He was desperate to stay on the President’s good side so he could get a pardon. And he’s angry that he is finally being held to account. So he fed the President and Giuliani debunked Russian disinformation that served as the root of debunked conspiracy theories spread by the alt-right and the President’s supporters that let Russia off the hook for what it was doing in the run up to the 2016 election, during the 2016 elections, and since the 2016 elections, which supports the President’s own ego protecting narrative, by flipping the story and making it about a Democratic National Committee/Hillary Clinton/Crowdstrike/FBI/Ukrainian plot to both smear Russia and steal the US election from the President.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: And they are based out of California, their owner is a naturalized US citizen who came here as a child from Russia. They are not Ukrainian owned and/or based.
Leto
@oldster: Because there is no “declassified” classification. Basically, you have Official, Restricted, Secret, and TS. You “declassify” information from,say, TS to Secret. Or from Secret to Unofficial. Hope that helps. (I’ve worked with this stuff for the past 22 years, but it’s been a bit since my last training.)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information
germy
Nunes! And he’s being sarcastic.
TomatoQueen
Schiff lays it out. Maguire is in some doo doo. Nunes’ spin is just dumb.
Leto
@JPL: I hope all the “security experts” who wailed, and gnashed their teeth, over improper security classification speak up in a unified voice at this.
And now Devin Dunces is speaking and his opening statement… JFC…
Baud
Benedict Arnold
John Wilkes Booth
Donald Trump
TS (the original)
@germy: When he said the media were helping the democrats – I turned off the sound
Adam L Silverman
@Cermet: Read the ICIG’s letter. He was so concerned that he went looking for corroborating information and evidence and found it. Specifically that this isn’t the first time the White House senior national security staff has done this to protect the President. The “this” being misclassifying, by upclassifying, transcripts and MEMCONs of other conversations the President has had with world leaders. In other words, he found an ongoing pattern of misclassification intended to cover up whatever the President was telling, offering, hearing, and/or agreeing to with these leaders.
Adam L Silverman
The Man from Lajes is up! Will he announce that he’s suing Adam Schiff for defamation and the libel-slander?
Adam L Silverman
@mapghimagsik: Misclassification also places this squarely under the purview of the Director of National Intelligence.
germy
@TS (the original):
You’re missing something special with the sound off. He’s mentioning the Russia Hoax.
cleek
Nunes is a worm
montanareddog
@JPL: so an impeachment inquiry will try to subpoena those transcripts on the highly-classified server. That will make for some interesting court cases.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
Thought I’d be glued to these hearings. Schiff’s opening statement was pretty good. But then he gave Nunes the floor. “Information warfare blah blah mainstream media blah blah”. I didn’t last through his first sentence.
So at the very least I guess I’m going to be riding the mute button if I stick this out.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: Manafort is telling Trump what to do, supplying specifics like CrowdStrike. I agree that it’s not clear who holds the power now – I’ve gone back and forth on this a couple of times this morning already – but it’s not unknown for the boss to work from jail. Recall that Manafort was put in solitary for communicating from his cell.
From what we know now, Manafort was in the Ukraine business long before Trump, although there is a strong Ukraine strain in NYC organized crime, in the Trump Cartel through Michael Cohen.
I’m holding back judgment on who is actually the Boss, but leaning toward Manafort at the moment. Could easily change with more information.
MattF
@Leto: Also FOUO (For Official Use Only). Not actually a classification, but there has been increasing pressure to restrict the distribution and storage of FOUO material.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: As of last night:
Adam L Silverman
Nunes: Steele Dossier, Democrats colluded with Russia, DRINK!!!!
dmsilev
@TomatoQueen:
It’s not just the spin that’s dumb in this case.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: Adam, please note the correction above about which Chalupa sister was targeted by Manafort.
TS (the original)
@germy: I’ll let you listen so I don’t have to – thanks
Leto
@cleek: Worms serve a useful purpose. He’s an appendix. Nobody really knows why it’s there, but it’s there just to make the body sick at a random time. Only way to fix it is to cut it out. We’re waiting for his district to do that.
Adam L Silverman
Nunes has gone so far into these debunked Russian disinformation and the conspiracy theories intended to make all of this impossible to understand because who knows what really happened, that he’s having trouble getting through his own prepared remarks.
Dmbeaster
Schiff in his opening about the transcript of the call: “It reads like a classic organized crime shakedown.”
Says it necessitates proceeding to consider impeachment as the remedy.
The other key thing to say, which is not in Schiff’s remarks, is that the transcript itself has the President asking for a favor in response to Zelensky’s desire for weapons, which is stark mob talk for quid pro quo. That word “favor” is a massively damaging admission. Use his words directly, rather than your own characterization. Casting it as mob talk is the key here, and also, frankly, the truth about our criminal president. But you can do it most forcefully with Trump’s own ham-handed language.
This scandal has legs.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: It’s one Chalupa for .99 cents at Taco Bell. So just put the other Chalupa down!//
laura
Has anyone checked on Manafort to see if he’s drowned in flopsweat?
clay
@Adam L Silverman: “complaint focuses in part”
What’s the other part?
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@montanareddog: Yeah, unfortunately once something gets onto a classified machine, it’s practically impossible to get it off again legally.
But you could print hard copy and have a team of experts sanitize it. Under bipartisan review.
Gin & Tonic
@Cheryl Rofer:
This was known long ago.
oldster
@Leto:
Ah, so it’s kind of like the difference between the verb and the adjective? I can declassify (verb) some classified info, but after I have done it, the right adjective for the result is “unclassified”, not “declassified”?
This means that, after the declassification has occurred, the now unclassified info has the same status as info that was never classified to begin with.
That’s fine, but I would think there was some advantage in having a word for “unclassified info that was formerly classified,” as opposed to “unclassified info that never was classified to begin with,” and that “declassified” would be the natural word for that.
Not my profession, though, so I’m grateful to those of you who can speak about it with expertise.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: Yahbut if I worked in the White House I’d be able to figure out who it was.
Adam L Silverman
@TS (the original): That’s the point. To use the phrase, which is also the title of a good book on Putin and his own internal to Russia disinformation operations against his own people: if nothing is true, everything is possible. The point here is to make it impossible for anyone to know the actual facts and truth of any matter no matter how small by making everything obscure.
Betty Cracker
@Adam L Silverman: True, but Cermet’s point is a good one, IMO. If the geniuses in the White House had released the letter only, it would be bad, no-good and awful for them and open up all kinds of avenues of investigation. But there’s a more obvious spin angle to it, i.e., the one Trump has been telegraphing for days now, that the whistleblower is a partisan, this is a new witch hunt, etc. Not saying it’s a convincing angle, but it was familiar. They made it so much worse by releasing the call notes yesterday! Trump’s own words from the call notes confirm what the letter says, bolstering its credibility.
Maybe they hoped the letter would be a distraction like Barr’s song and dance about the Mueller report before that was released. They shot themselves in the dick.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: I’m sure neither of them has ever heard that sort of joke,
mapghimagsik
@Adam L Silverman: Yup. That almost sounds like assistance. Someone should probably consider updating their resume. I’m not sure how you spin ‘helping commit treason’ into a positive, but I’m sure they’ll think of something.
Today is going to be lit.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: It’s their parents own fault for picking two “A” names for their daughters. That’s the real crime and tragedy here.//
Dorothy A. Winsor
The Wonkette live blog is much more entertaining than the hearing itself.
Leto
@MattF: Yup, seen plenty of FOUO material over the years. I always wondered at FOUO material because most of the information I saw was open knowledge (open source reporting), but hey, what do I know!
@Adam L Silverman: If we play your drinking game from above, I’ll be dead by the second dum dum. Can I play the game with coffee?
Adam L Silverman
@dmsilev: Shouldn’t that be “DON’T PLAY THEIR GAMES”?
Steeplejack
I don’t know how much of this I can watch. Nunes was awful, as expected, and now Maguire is fellating himself in his opening statement, positioning himself somewhere between George Washington and Mother Teresa on the scale of “public service.”
Anybody recommend a good tweet thread to follow?
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: That’s the nutgraph! And that’s what puts it squarely within the purview of the Director of National Intelligence. White House staffers have been misclassifying, by upclassifying without authority to do so, materials to protect the President from his own actions.
Leto
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
*hearty laugh that woke up the dog
Edit: @Steeplejack: The Wonkette blog, that DAW suggested, is pretty good.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@Leto: FOUO is mostly about exemption from Freedom of Information Act requests. And there are good valid reasons for it. But it’s abused, no question.
Obama made some attempt to clean up the overuse. I think he identified 19 equivalent markings in use across the different government agencies.
dr. bloor
@Cermet: Whatever is in the classified attachment is likely a hot mess for Trump. No one in Congress who read the full filing last night–D or R–came away saying “just hearsay.”
Adam L Silverman
@Leto: Actually that’s not 100% true. Once something is declassified, the classification markings in the headers and footers are struck through and the document is stamped in multiple places with declassified, the date of declassification, and usually by order of.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: They didn’t, actually. “Alexandra” is an Anglicized version of what is traditionally “Olexandra” in Ukrainian, commonly shortened as “Lesia.”
And to those who might still be interested, the “Ch” in their surname is not pronounced like in “chowder” but like in “Loch” – it’s the Cyrillic X, like the Greek X, technically a voiceless velar fricative, which is sometimes transliterated as “Kh” and sometimes as “Ch.”
TS (the original)
@Adam L Silverman: Is Acting Macguire correct in saying he had to contact the white house because the complaint related to a phone call by the president (executive privilege)
eric
@Gin & Tonic: “voiceless velar fricative” is such an amazing phrase. I commend on your use of word things.
Elizabelle
Wow. Traveling; woke late, CBS was on in the breakfast room with a live special report on this. Mercifully, came in one minute before Maguire was sworn in.
WRT Trump: my sleepy opinion (1/3 cup of coffee): Fucker is going down. And the DNI does not want to go to prison.
ETA: Noticed right away his little comment about his integrity “how ever long he might serve.” Well aware of Trump’s effect and actions on administration officials.
Steeplejack
@Leto:
Thanks.
Leto
@Adam L Silverman: Again, my training isn’t up to date :P
@Ceci n est pas mon nym: Good points.
Cheryl Rofer
Maguire: I was just following orders.
TomatoQueen
Maguire is less and less impressive, and more and more obviously partisan. Schiff is extraordinarily patient.
Leto
@Cheryl Rofer: Pretty much. Again, black letter law explicitly states what he was supposed to do. He’s making the call of there was “executive privilege” material contained within the complaint, when that’s not his call to make. And he keeps trying to make it.
germy
@Cheryl Rofer:
That’s under “Eichmann, Adolf” in Bartlett’s Familiar Quotations.
Elizabelle
Adam Schiff is terrific. Cordially gets to the point.
I can dress and pack while Nunes is doing his lying and pontificating.
germy
@TomatoQueen: I wonder if the Republicans will get rough with him.
Elizabelle
“The Bill Barr Justice Department.”
Can a girl dream that Barr gets disbarred (eventually) over this? Some felony time would be nice too.
Cheryl Rofer
@germy: yep
Leto
@TS (the original): No:
germy
Bill DisBarr.
Has a nice ring to it.
TS (the original)
Wimp – covering his own a… and covering for the AG and the president*
oatler.
Currently watching Schiff hand Maguire’s ass to him.
germy
@TS (the original):
They all testify like Trump is sitting right next to them glaring at them.
Yarrow
Maguire looks like he’s flailing. Nervous movements. Head shaking, hands moving about, shifting in his seat, touching/moving his glasses and touching his hair. Schiff looks so calm in comparison.
Edit: He’s much more comfortable talking to Nunes. No surprise there.
Greg Mulka
Nunes is going to get as much time as Schiff. Kill me.
germy
Nunes just got an answer he didn’t want to hear.
Steeplejack
@oatler.:
Yes, but they’re both sawing a lot of sawdust to get there.
Oh, jeez, Nunes up again. I think I’m getting a nosebleed.
Elizabelle
“Part of a charade of legal war games.”
Yup. Nunes is up. I would like to see him go to federal prison too. Noxious guy.
TS (the original)
@Leto: thanks – I’m still not understanding WHY he went to the White House – I think you are telling me he should have just presented the complaint to congress
germy
@Elizabelle: I’d be happy to see him voted out of office. Let him open a car dealership somewhere.
Leto
So McGuire just acknowledged that the ICIG found this “credible”. Per law, he was then required to forward this to congress. Not to make a further determination. JFC, we have James Comey making shit up as he goes, all over again.
Edit: @TS (the original): Exactly. He was supposed to forward this complaint to congress. Not make a determination of “executive privilege”. We have a James Comey situation all over again. All he had to do was follow the law, but he’s making his own determinations about this material, when it wasn’t his call to make, in an attempt to cover for the Tango Traitor.
TS (the original)
@germy: agreed – sure seems like the crime boss
germy
@Leto:
Nunes didn’t like hearing that said out loud.
balconesfault
@bystander: Add Pence
germy
Nunes: “The leaks are coming from your office!”
Elizabelle
Nunes missed his century. He needed to be a Nazi. Maybe working for Goebbels. More likely for Himmler.
He has no integrity.
gvg
@Leto: My impression of the complaint letter was it was written to never be classified, to not give anyone who wanted to quash it, an excuse, to redact or classify. It keeps saying this letter does not to my knowledge contain any classified information “when separated from the attachment”. I think that was smart, especially given part of the complaint is about misclassifying stuff that shouldn’t be to protect the President. It would also explain why we got it so fast, unlike the Mueller report. Now I wonder what is in the attachment.
Leto
@germy:
germy
“Hopefully behind closed doors” says Nunes.
Democracy!
Elizabelle
@germy: Exactly. Make it a case of a leaking office, rather than such criminality that career professionals are obligated to signal the public and Congressional oversight.
Nunes can go to prison too. And then open his car dealership.
jonas
@Cheryl Rofer: In addition to the Manafort angle, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if a lot of this is also coming directly from Putin. What was in the notes that Trump personally confiscated from the notetaker at their meeting last year?
RedDirtGirl
I need popcorn!
Elizabelle
It will be interesting to see how the other committee Republicans behave. Will Hurd will ask some excellent questions.
Who else? This is not the same occasion as throwing dirt and misdirection at Robert Mueller. Remember those howler monkeys? Time has passed, and there is blood in the water and the election looms closer.
Aleta
@Adam L Silverman:
To be accurate about the extent of Maas’ story:
Any info beyond the NYRB story you mention should have links.
Maas was careful about what he wrote. Perhaps partly because so much intentionally false information about Chalupa was placed just to help concoct the fake election story (at The Hill, Politico, etc. ) that she’s been receiving death threats for years.
Leto
@gvg: Exactly. First paragraph of page two states that. After seeing all the classification fuck ups, and how the WH redacts literally everything, he/she/they tried to keep absolutely everything they could in the Unclassified realm to convey maximum meaning and ensure that it gets to congress intact. The fact that the WH is storing potentially bad things on a different classified system so they won’t be seen… eternal fucking hate for the “emails” brigade.
MisterForkbeard
@Leto:
I’m really appreciating that Kay’s constant repeat of this frame “All he had to do was follow the law” has gotten a lot of traction here. It’s exactly the right approach and I hope it becomes a standard approach from Democrats. Because this basically encapsulates the ENTIRE Trump Era: If people had just followed the law, we wouldn’t have Trump. And once he got elected, if people had followed the law then the damage from Trump’s perfidy would have been much smaller.
Elizabelle
Conway starts out disparaging lawyers. Saying it might be a point of honor (??) that he and the DNI are not lawyers.
Guess the party affiliation.
TS (the original)
According to what I am hearing – the White House can direct ANY person to not speak to congress or answer their questions. The End.
So if Trump had NOT released the “transcript” and if Rudi had kept his mouth shut this would have died quickly.
Cheryl Rofer
@jonas: I suspect Russian involvement too, but think it’s important to get this set of actions quite clear first. That in itself may uncover further involvement.
Gin & Tonic
@Aleta: Please note, as I mentioned above, that Adam mis-identified this person. There are two sisters, Andrea and Alexandra. Andrea is a journalist, who works with Sarah Kendzior among others. Alexandra worked for the DNC, and is the one who was subject to Manafort’s attacks.
Yarrow
@MisterForkbeard: Agreed. It’s the perfect framing. I use it all the time in discussions with people IRL.
I also appreciate Kay’s repetition of the phrase “an epidemic of white collar crime.” I use that one IRL as well. People really respond to it.
Cheryl Rofer
@TS (the original): They can direct, but they can’t necessarily make it stick.
Aleta
TX Rep Mike Conaway starts by insulting lawyers. Also, they give different opinions! And we all have different opinions!
Adam L Silverman
@clay: Read the complaint, I attached it above.
jonas
@Adam L Silverman: Ah, so now I get why Trump was blabbering that Ukraine may be in possession of the contents of Hillary’s wiped email server. Crowdstrike, in collusion with the DNC and corrupt Ukrainian officials, not to mention the reverse vampires, downloaded thousands of emails detailing decades of murder, corruption and treason on the part of the Clintons and squirreled them away in the Ukraine in a vast conspiracy to steal Trump’s victory.
We’re through the looking glass here, people.
Adam L Silverman
@oldster: No. Unclassified is its own form of classification.
Leto
@MisterForkbeard: @Yarrow: And again, McGuire stated that the OLC determined it wasn’t credible/urgent… when IT WAS NEVER THEIR CALL TO MAKE!
MF: yeah Kay’s mantra, “Just follow the law”, continually runs through my head when I see/hear things like this. And I’m glad Dems are continually hammering him on this: “you ‘shall’… why didn’t you follow this?”
Adam L Silverman
@Leto: No, just wine from Nunes winery.
Adam L Silverman
@dr. bloor: Yep, the real action is going to be in the still classified and not released annexes.
Elizabelle
Schiff asks if the whistleblower can testify without “Some minder from the White House or elsewhere telling the whistleblower what they may say …” (may not be exact quote).
Schiff’s remarks throughout this hearing are aimed directly at Bill Barr and his crime boss in the White House.
Adam L Silverman
@TS (the original): I’ve never been briefed on executive privilege and how to consider it/apply it. So I have no idea.
Yarrow
@Leto:
Me too.
TS (the original)
@Cheryl Rofer: Understood – but in most cases with trump it does seem to stick.
Yarrow
What exactly is this Rep. Turner saying Schiff made up? Huh?
The Moar You Know
@oldster: “Declassified” is not a status that a document can have. It’s not written into the law. “Unclassified” is.
Elizabelle
Rep Turner accuses Schiff of making things up.
Says the American public has the transcript and reads and knows …
Did I get that right? Again, still tired and not caffeinated fully.
Yes, he just said it again. Who is this “American public” of which he speaks?
Adam L Silverman
@TomatoQueen: @Cheryl Rofer:He’s not partisan. What you’re seeing is the downside of taking retired senior military leaders with significant executive/management experience and subject matter expertise and placing them in senior civilian positions. They are unable to remove themselves from the Chain of Command discretion due to the President in his role as Commander in Chief of the US military. Vice Admiral (ret) Maguire is no longer in uniform, he should not simply reflexively click his heels, salute, and move out sharply. That’s no longer his role.
TS (the original)
@Adam L Silverman: Then I don’t fell alone in my confusion about it. Seems in the past year or so it gets mentioned so much – someone must have told trump it is his way out of any problems he encounters.
Elizabelle
@Yarrow: The Republican Intelligence Committee members are all dispensing a different thread of squid ink, aren’t they?
Facts not in their favor, so assail the Democrats, lawyers. Issue what can be soundbites on rightwing controlled media, short soundbites, that can be woven into a fabric of lies and aspersions.
And thank the DNI for his service, and talk about character assassination. Against him.
We have not seen a good faith question or comment yet.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Perhaps a really good lawyer could explain that to McGuire? Or even some JAG. “Dude, your situation and status has changed.”
Leto
“I have a lot of life experience” – McGuire on why he didn’t send it to congress…
Apparently reading the law isn’t one of those life experiences.
Cheryl Rofer
@Adam L Silverman: Good point, Adam. Still comes down to “I was just following orders.” Not a good look since 1961.
Like others in this drama, he may not feel that he is partisan, but he fails to understand that actions are inevitably partisan in his situation. He doesn’t know how to ask the question “Which side are you on?”
oatler.
Still waiting for the inevitable Louie Gohmert “interlude”.
Adam L Silverman
@Aleta:
Any other demands of my time you’d like to make? My consulting rates start at $200 per hour, minimum of 8 hours plus expenses. Please send me an email indicating where I can send the invoice so you can pay me for the work you’ve asked me to undertake.
MisterForkbeard
@Elizabelle:
This is basically every investigation from Republicans in the past 10 years. In both the Obama and Trump administrations, Republicans haven’t been interested in finding out the truth. They’re more interested in the performance and dancing for the cameras.
JPL
@Elizabelle: LImbaugh listeners.
TS (the original)
@Leto: Committee needs a lawyer here to ask the questions & keep asking why he didn’t do as requested by the legislation.
Josie
@Adam L Silverman:
This makes so much sense, Adam, and explains much about the retired military people’s reaction to Trump. They are hamstrung by their tendency to follow chain of command. He (or someone supporting him) probably understands this and puts them in these positions on purpose. It is a good reason to keep military and civilian positions and personnel separate in a democracy.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: Give it a rest already. Everybody’s seen it. I already corrected it.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: That’s a better version. I was going to suggest your next cup be decaf.
MisterForkbeard
@Cheryl Rofer: The military gets training on this, don’t they? An order to break the law isn’t legal.
In this case, there was a clear action demanded by the law. He knew it, everyone knew it. Instead, he went to the DOJ, which brought up a farcically tangential objection “Misuse of classified data systems isn’t related to the Intelligence Community” and who themselves issued an illegal/completely unmandated guidance to the DNI.
Then again, maybe the DNI’s relatives newness to his role made this worse. It’s entirely possible an experienced DNI would have known to push back against DOJ or to never ask them anyway.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: It didn’t appear to me that Aleta had seen it, and she quoted the incorrect version. Sorry if it seems like harping, I just want the reference to be correct.
Steeplejack
@Adam L Silverman:
Exactly!
Yarrow
Okay, I’m lost. I had to go do something for awhile. What is this “fiction” that the R’s are using as their talking point?
germy
The Republican questioners always have the oddest-looking staff sitting behind them.
oldgold
The Democrats have made their point.
No sense in continuing to pound. Could actually backfire.
Elizabelle
Now this GOPcritter is talking about “innocent Americans” and the terrible (implied, false) story the media is going to show them.
Ladies and gentlemen: your howler monkeys. On the Intelligence Committee. It is all they do.
mapghimagsik
@Adam L Silverman: Damn, linking pays well. I wanna be a linker! ;)
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: I know one of the retired GOs who do senior mentoring and run the course for senior uniformed leaders transitioning into retirement. I will mention to him that this needs to be worked into the curriculum.
Adam L Silverman
@Cheryl Rofer: I agree that it is not a good look. Nor that it should be his default approach to his job.
Cheryl Rofer
@MisterForkbeard: All of this. Different sorts of people get to the higher ranks. A few can think things out, but many years of the chain of command take their toll. And yes, if he were secure and experienced in his position, he probably would have had more independence.
Leto
@TS (the original): At this point I think we have his narrative nailed down: Even though the plain reading of the statute says X, I did Y. I made this determination on my own, then went to the OLC, had it reaffirmed, and kept following that route. Now I’m trying to justify why I did it, even though it’s wrong.
@Adam L Silverman: Excellent point.
@MisterForkbeard: Yes, yes we do. It’s an annual training requirement (at least on the enlisted side. IDK wtf officers have to do, but apparently it’s not enough) I don’t remember my classification training, in detail (the horror!), but I sure as hell remember ethics training with regard to lawful/unlawful orders. Like Adam said, not having retired senior military officers in all of these positions would be a good start.
Steeplejack
@Adam L Silverman, @Josie:
The other side of this coin is the dangerous trend to deify the military in our society. We tend to accept that the generals will do a good job wherever they are placed, and that military service is an automatic qualification to run for Congress. (Bonus points if “warrior” or SEAL.)
Steeplejack
@mapghimagsik:
You have to work your way up from influencer and thought leader, I think.
Leto
@Steeplejack: Continuing post-Vietnam ramification, along with how we “see/value” drafted versus volunteer.
Mr Stewart shitting up the USAF. We can do that on our own with your help, asshole.
BC in Illinois
@Leto:
And I think that the Democrats have presented the conflict of interest inherent in taking complaints about Trump, which implicate Barr, to the White House (Trump) and DOJ (Barr) for advice.
The twitterers are asking when we will get to talking about Trump and his misuse of his office. Or will we not get to that today?
Elizabelle
Now this bozo, regrettably a retired AF pilot, opens with saying he’s not going to treat the DNI as a child and allow him to answer questions.
Talks about Democrats damaging his character and integrity. DNI agrees “I am not partisan.”
waysel
“I thought it was prudent”. Another one for the history books.
waysel
So Comeyesque.
Leto
@Cheryl Rofer: Per the Wonkette blog:
Elizabelle
Chris Stewart is from Utah. Got curious enough to see if he might be in a swing district. What a fucking tool.
MisterForkbeard
@Elizabelle: I hope that the Democrats come back to this. “You may not BE partisan. But you disobeyed the clear reading of the law to ask the subject of the compaint if he could come up with a legal reason not to release the complaint, which was… required by law. You took a decision that belongs to the IG upon yourself and then gave that authority to the Trump DOJ. That was a partisan action, whether you realize it or not.”
Because that appears to be the thing that the DNI is getting hung up on. The “I really didn’t do anything wrong” is obviously wrong, because he BROKE THE LAW.
Leto
Dear Mr Stewart,
Nobody is claiming he’s a “dishonorable man”. We’re saying he can’t read and can’t follow the law. If his actions paint him as, “dishonorable”, well…
Him and Martha McSally… uuuggghhhhh
Leto
@Elizabelle: We have a very large AFB there, Mountain Home AFB. I don’t know if that’s in his district, but being former AF could pull in some votes. And these were my former officers/leaders… uuuggghhhhh
Elizabelle
@Leto: That Dr. Wenstrup from Ohio was so awful I turned the TV off. Which was probably part of the GOP members’ plan. Turned it back on and Jackie Speier was up.
I think disgusting Americans, innocent or otherwise, is a function of these Republicans in Congress. Disgusting and demoralizing the Democrats (or those who believe in rule of law) who are watching, infuriating the “innocent” Republicans.
It’s not hard to figure out which party the member belongs too, either. They are miles apart in rhetoric and in ethnic/gender representation.
germy
Elise Stefanik has her talking point and she’s sticking with it.
Soprano2
I can see one line of Republican attack is going to be that the whistleblower didn’t actually witness most of these acts, so it’s all a big nothing. I don’t think that will fly, but I think that’s what they’re going to try to do.
Leto
@Elizabelle: Good points, all around.
Leto
@Soprano2: The whistleblower says that in his complaint. But he also says that multiple people told him, and that all of their stories (and all of them were from different agencies) matched up, so it was duty under the law to report. The whistleblower was following the law. McGuire? Not so much.
Yarrow
Swalwell is good. Suggests this transcript being moved into another system could mean other conversations’ transcripts, like with Putin, MBS, Kim Jong Un, etc., could also have been moved.
eric
@Leto: I wonder if the whistleblower knows the names of those multiple people…..i think there are some folks not looking forward to hearing their names said out loud on the TV.
eric
@Yarrow: and perhaps a certain maybe-leader in Israel regarding Iran
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: I may need more coffee!
Gin & Tonic
Interesting Twitter thread from May of this year, right after Zelensky was elected.
Leto
@Yarrow: Adam put up a post about that; there’s too many posts up atm to keep track of all the convo’s!
Elizabelle
Fox is not covering the DNI hearing. They have a live Pelosi presser on. (Channel surfing in the hotel.)
Chyron: Pelosi: We have not choice but to ask for impeachment inquiry. (Except it’s in ALL CAPS cuz it’s important, people.)
Very interesting. Their “innocent Americans” aren’t actually watching the DNI hearing. (You’ll recall some howler monkey said that.)
Elizabelle
Actually, Fox is doing a very fair job with the chyrons. Interesting.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: And I may need a drink, but it’s not noon yet (well, it’s cocktail hour in Kyiv, so I could use that as an excuse.)
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: That Russia interfered in the 2016 US elections to elect Trump president.
Adam L Silverman
@mapghimagsik: Those rates aren’t for linking.
Elizabelle
Pelosi: “No. I think the DNI was broke the law. The law is very clear.”
Talks about the wording “shall.” “The very idea that the subject of a complaint is who he went to to” [decide if he should go forward.]
Now Fox is back to the DNI hearing. Will Hurd up. I really like him. Good on him for retiring from his ridiculous, horrible party seat. Who wants to be the one sane person among howler monkeys.
JGabriel
@Gin & Tonic:
What’s the reputation and record of Ukraine’s Supreme Court? Clean or corrupt? Pro-Putin or Anti-Putin?
Anyone? Bueller?
Adam L Silverman
@Steeplejack: Yep. It’s a mixed bag. If you need an experienced senior leader who has a lot of management experience, often including dealing with crises, on paper they’re basically the make, model, and type you’re looking for. In reality, they may be severely and seriously limited by four decades of acculturation to system that relies on chain of command and, for their last several years of service, directly to the president, regardless of who is president.
Yarrow
@Leto: Missed that. Swalwelll was good in his questioning about it.
Will Hurd is up now. Retiring Republican and former CIA. Seems to be a bit torn between being a good soldier Republican and a good American.
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks. I was lost in what they were saying. What broke through to me was “Adam Schiff lied” and “Adam Schiff told fiction.” I’d guess that was their intent.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Follow the dots, and you will see that Trump has always been an illegitimate president. It’s the great tragedy of our time. The GOP does not want you to look at that closely at all.
I guess Trump became legitimate once the awful Electoral College voted, but he cheated all the way through. Also, voter suppression.
It all has to come out.
Starfish
@Elizabelle: My ears turned red as I listened to him performing fellatio on NPR. I did not consent to listen to him perform sex acts on a witness. That type of thing should be done in a private room.
Gin & Tonic
@JGabriel: It is generally well-regarded. One of the points Zelensky made in his joint appearance with Trump yesterday (when speaking in Ukrainian) was that the judiciary is independent. He was notably more animated speaking in Ukrainian than in English, although his English is good.
Adam L Silverman
@Leto: Yep a deep dive with transcriptions from the complaint and accompanying letter, which Cole then bigfooted with a three sentence take on the matter.
Elizabelle
@Starfish: If Stewart’s district is remotely flippable, we should fundraise for someone who can make a real challenge.
He was shameful. Leto is right that he shit all over the Air Force.
And don’t think that military watching this aren’t appalled, many of them.
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: I am so behind on all reading here. Have been at a family funeral. It will all keep, though.
Ah, it’s the failed nominee, Ratcliffe, up. Mercy.
ETA: Muting this dude. It’s all about the DNI being falsely accused of a crime. Anything but talk about the whistleblower. Fuck them all. Ratcliffe cannot have my ears. We get the picture.
Leto
Again, McGuire admits that it’s up to the ICIG to determine whether it’s “credible”, not him. And per the law, all the DNI is supposed to do is then send it to congress. Even if it’s found “not credible”, he’s still supposed to send it to congress. There’s really nothing more to be said at this point. Avalune invited me to go have Caribbean food at her workplace. I think I need to get ready to go.
Adam L Silverman
@Elizabelle: My sincere condolences.
Leto
@Adam L Silverman: Haha, we have another Bigfoot sighting! Oh man. Maybe pull it and post it again in like an hour? Also thank you so much for doing that heavy lifting of analysis. Even if it’s brief. It’s needed. ?
Elizabelle
@Adam L Silverman: Thank you. Was my favorite aunt and godmother. 87, so a good long life, but will miss her forever.
Soprano2
What horseshit. The law doesn’t say anything about referring anything to the executive branch for any reason at all. They referred it to the DOJ in order to get a reason to withhold it from the committee.
Starfish
@Elizabelle: He won his last election with only 56% of the vote, and the candidate running against him was an Iranian American, which is only relevant in that I was cheering for her because I am also an Iranian American.
Adam L Silverman
@Leto: Enjoy!
Soprano2
Ratcliff acts like he doesn’t understand why things need to be referred for investigation. Plus, he was mostly testifying.
Bring on the staff attorney!!
Soprano2
It’s amazing to me that McGuire can’t just say that it’s unacceptable for any president to solicit foreign help with an election.
Starfish
@Soprano2: That was absolutely bananas!
Elizabelle
@Starfish: Hmmm. He sounds beatable. And it’s possible Trump and what the GOP slime is doing might be a bridge too far for junior Senator Romney.
Hoping 2020 could go bad for Stewart.
Soprano2
I object to the idea that if you’ve been in the military or served your country in any capacity that you cannot possibly have committed a crime.
Soprano2
Wow, it’s shocking that he cannot say that he didn’t speak to the president about this whistleblower complaint.
PJ
@Soprano2: To sum up, Maguire took what he acknowledged to be a legitimate whistleblower’s complaint, which he was legally obligated to provide to Congress, to the person who was the subject of the complaint and asked him if he could come up with a reason why he shouldn’t provide the complaint to Congress.
This is like a policeman taking a victim’s complaint to the alleged criminal and asking the criminal if he can come up with a reason why he shouldn’t take the complaint to the DA. Maguire is either a moron, a coward, or deeply corrupt (or all three.)
WaterGirl
Demmings questioning was a waste of time, I think. What do others think?
oldgold
Oh, how I hate this questioning by every member of the committee for 5 minutes.
They have to get rid of it. It is just horrible. It is often too little time. It is sometimes, as here, too much time. It is almost never an appropriate amount of time. This is particularly so when in the hands of individuals who are not experienced litigators.
Soprano2
I think it was good when Demmings said that not once in all her years as a police officer had she asked the subject of an investigation what she should do about that investigation.
I agree about this type of questioning. It’s a crazy way to do it. Way too much repetition.
Uncle Cosmo
@Leto: Um, no, try again. Mountain Home AFB is in Mountain Home, IDAHO, about 45 miles east of Boise on I-84. Over 30 years ago I spent 3 days there on The Business Trip From Hell, & it’s kindasorta engraved upon my memory – inter alia, I came within a few yards of dying a horrible death near there.
Hill AFB is just north of UT-02, between SLC & Ogden. Dugway Proving Grounds and Tooele Army Depot (USArmy) seem to be within the district – a lot of chem-bio testing went on there in the day. Maybe you meant one of those?
Adam L Silverman
For those interested, I’ve put up a deep dive into the whistleblower complaint and the accompanying ICIG’s letter.
Soprano2
@PJ: I think he just didn’t want to make such an explosive decision, so he did what he could to get that decision off his plate and onto someone else’s. That has blown up in his face in a spectacular fashion.
Soprano2
Can’t listen to any more of that. Signing out for now. Way too much of the same thing over and over again.
James E Powell
@Steeplejack:
This is coupled with the almost universal belief that military service means the person is more patriotic, less partisan, and devoid of all the character flaws the rest of us mere humans possess in abundance.
Leto
@Uncle Cosmo: Whoops. I get both shithole bases confused. Much like Shaw AFB, if those bases were to disappear there’d be a huge economic recession in the area. I.e. ghost towns.
J R in WV
@oldster:
That is a guilty plea to have misclassified that report in the beginning for this particular scandal. If it was ever classified, then it would be declassified, but it it shouldn’t have been classified at all, ever, than misclassified is an admission of guilt regarding the whistleblower’s report.