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This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

Relentless negativity is not a sign that you are more realistic.

Innocent people do not delay justice.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

No Kings: Americans standing in the way of bad history saying “Oh, Fuck No!”

Many life forms that would benefit from greater intelligence, sadly, do not have it.

I did not have this on my fuck 2025 bingo card.

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Humiliatingly small and eclipsed by the derision of millions.

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Washington Post Catch and Kill, not noticeably better than the Enquirer’s.

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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Meanwhile, in Miami…

Meanwhile, in Miami…

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No idea how things will shake out at the courthouse today, but the heatstroke danger is real!

As mentioned in the morning thread, here’s an excerpt from a Josh Marshall piece at TPM about how the J6 prosecutions may have broken a sense of impunity anti-government right-wingers acquired during the Bundy clan standoffs:

The militia-leading, federal subsidy-loving ranchers led a series of standoffs with federal authorities in which they were universally, comically handled with kid gloves. The Bundys first went national when they had their standoff at the family ranch in Nevada in 2014. Then in 2016 Ammon Bundy lead the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters in Harney County, Oregon. It went on for more than a month while Ammon and his clown posse wrecked the place, spouted off and generally engaged in your standard far-right militia performance art.

These are complicated situations. All law enforcement authorities should place a very high priority on ending crises without violence or the loss of life. But the upshot of the Bundy standoffs was to send a message that far-right extremists could defy federal law and law enforcement with impunity and essentially make a mockery of federal authority. I have little doubt that a significant backdrop to the events of Jan. 6 was the assumption that a similar set of rules would apply: that militia cosplay, LARPing and right-wing performance art generally get a pass. The fact that it didn’t on Jan. 6 is likely having an impact today.

That’s no protection against lone wolves. We’ve seen again and again in recent years that there is an almost endless supply of far-right domestic terrorists willing to commit acts of violence on behalf of Donald Trump or adjacent to his views. But most at least now realize that all the fun and games can lead to serious time in prison. And as the complaints about conditions in the D.C. jails make clear, they don’t have much taste for it.

Deterrence: it’s a thing!

Open thread.

Reader Interactions

253Comments

  1. 1.

    Wapiti

    And if Biden wins, any pardons are at least 4 more years down the road. The math isn’t good.

  2. 2.

    Alison Rose

    Since today is 25 years since my high school graduation, I’ll let myself daydream about TIFG getting 25 years in prison.

    (I know. It’s likely not gonna happen. Let me enjoy the thought.)

  3. 3.

    Parfigliano

    Different world if the Bundys would have been introduced to the crim justice system in the same manner as a black man minding his own business innocently walking down a street.

  4. 4.

    S Cerevisiae

    I hope that’s true and that Meal Team 6 has learned a bit about the FO part of FAFO. I was so pissed when the Bundys sacked the wildlife refuge and got away with it, fuck all those assholes.

  7. 7.

    Matt McIrvin

    The January 6th insurrectionists thought the insurrection would win, Trump’s election loss would be nullified and the crimes of the Democrats exposed and they’d be celebrated as heroes of the revolution. People of the tendency have got to be thinking twice about that, at least some of them.

  8. 8.

    Roger Moore

    A really important point about the January 6th prosecutions is that they’ve managed to bring accountability within the normal justice system.  It’s not going to be easy to stir this up into a thing about the police being out of control the way one could with Waco, Ruby Ridge, or even the end of the Malheur standoff.  They’ve been largely handled like a bunch of ordinary criminals, which both denies them a rallying cry and shows they aren’t some special, larger-than-life group.

  9. 9.

    SpaceUnit

    When it comes to violating the Espionage Act the rules are the same as fucking a pig.  Rule one is don’t fuck that pig.  Rule two is if you are fucking the pig, stop.  Rule three is if it’s too late and you’ve already fucked the pig don’t brag about how cool it was.

    Dude was up to his eyebrows in lawyers and still managed to whiff on all three.  Consequences.

  11. 11.

    Roger Moore

    @Parfigliano:

    Different world if the Bundys would have been introduced to the crim justice system in the same manner as a black man minding his own business innocently walking down a street.

    I strongly disagree.  If you let the police kill them without benefit of a trial, they would become martyrs to the jackbooted thugs in the federal government, the same way Randy Weaver and David Koresh were.  The right way to deal with them is exactly the way we’ve dealt with the Jan 6th rioters: with normal, boring trials at which their guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

  13. 13.

    RaflW

    Indeed, one of the benefits of the Trump investigations, special counsel and grand jury work taking the time it has, is that DoJ has simultaneously prosecuted (or plead out) a ton of J6 cases.

    Some of the people now in jail would themselves be in Miami now, if they’d received Bundy kid glove handling over the last two years.

  16. 16.

    Jeffro

    REAL deterrence of these violent right-wing loons would have involved…oh, never mind, we’ll settle for second-best.  It seems to be working.

  17. 17.

    Jackie

    New York Times: “National television networks are teeing up wall-to-wall arraignment coverage. CBS, ABC and NBC will all cut into their afternoon programming and go into special report mode at some point after 2 p.m.”

    A lot of “normies” are gonna be pissed that their soaps and Judge Judy aren’t on…. MAYBE they’ll blame TIFG! (As they should)

  23. 23.

    StringOnAStick

    @S Cerevisiae: We drove through Burns, Oregon on our two day drive when moving from CO to the other CO (central Oregon).  Even after 15 hours of driving with two unhappy cats, I took one look at the poverty stricken dump that is Burns and was glad we had another 120 miles to go to get to our new home, because the more distance, the better.  Extreme MAGA land with signs painted in the sides of failing buildings in support of the Malheur occupation.

  24. 24.

    Sure Lurkalot

    I thought TFG was “the former guy” or “that fucking guy” but what is TIFG?

  25. 25.

    Mike in NC

    @SpaceUnit:  The Trump Crime Cartel could easily have remained in their tacky tower in Manhattan, committing their low-level malfeasance, but their insatiable greed and gluttony put them on the road to DC, where they intended to steal everything that wasn’t nailed down. Tick tock, motherfuckers.

  26. 26.

    Jeffro

    @Jackie: that makes sense (not)…”my main rival for the GOP nomination is going down the tubes, so I think I’ll rally behind him!  yeah, that’s it!  hey everybody, let’s rally behind the guy who keeps racking up indictments and inciting violence!”

    j/k of course

    we all know it doesn’t make sense in the real world, but for VR and the rest of the GQP field, it makes good (and very cynical) sense

    (I’m also glad that it makes them look like the second-rate MAGA hacks that they are.  bye-bye, even more swing voters!)

    once trumpov goes down, it’ll be exciting to see these vermin fight amongst themselves for the trump voters and declare the others insufficiently loyal  LOL

  27. 27.

    Hoodie

    @Roger Moore: That’s what Smith appears to be doing in this indictment.  He’s painting Trump as a bumbling, small time crook who constantly incriminates himself, aching for relevance while hoarding boxes next to the crapper and showing off classified docs to nobodies to make himself feel important. One takeaway I had from the complaint is how much Trump’s actions were like those of a lot of small time crooks.

  32. 32.

    lowtechcyclist

    @Jackie:

    “Republican presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy is urging his primary rivals to sign his pledge to pardon Donald Trump.”

    OK, I know most of the Rethug ‘Presidential’ candidates are really running for veep (or at least a pleasant sinecure in wingnut welfareland), but since officially they’re running against Trump for the Presidential nomination, would it be too much for reporters to ask them to explain why someone should vote for them instead of Trump? What they’d do that he wouldn’t, what they wouldn’t do that he would?

  37. 37.

    apocalipstick

    @S Cerevisiae:

    The Malheur situation was a great example of morality v. law. Ammon Bundy was/is unquestionably, in moral terms, as guilty as can be as well as a thundering asshole, but in legal terms what happened at Malheur amounted to overstaying your welcome. It was public land, and you cannot trespass on public property unless it’s a specifically controlled area (US Capitol, for example, or a military base or federal courthouse). Bundy knew that; it’s why he squatted on the Wildlife Area.

  40. 40.

    apocalipstick

    @Roger Moore:

    Thanks for the perspective. Bundy knew he was staging his little hissy fit on public land and accommodations, which is why there was no conviction. Mr. Brave Militia committed a cowardly, chicken-shit offense, then tried to make himself look like a brave freedom fighter.

  41. 41.

    mary s

    @Roger Moore: Yeah, I think the Waco and Ruby Ridge disasters helped rile up rightwingers (including Timothy McVeigh) and influenced the way law enforcement in dealt with the Bundys. However, the pendulum can (and usually does) swing too far.

  42. 42.

    Anonymous At Work

    Miami heatstroke is only a thing if you are a total effing moron, so we might see 10-15% of MAGAts go down.

  43. 43.

    StringOnAStick

    @MazeDancer: Smith is more than “just” a triathlete, he’s an Ironman competator, the elite, ultra triathlon competitions that you have to qualify to even be allowed to compete in these races.  These folks know how to grind it out over hours and hours of hard competition and are very, very determined at reaching their goals no matter what.  tRump is utterly fucked,no wonder he’s having trouble finding anyone to be his attorney for this case.

  48. 48.

    Jackie

    @bbleh: I watched the original. Not giving TIFG the ratings tick. I’ll tune in after y’all report the arraignment is over.

  50. 50.

    artem1s

    We’ve seen again and again in recent years that there is an almost endless supply of far-right domestic terrorists willing to commit acts of violence on behalf of Donald Trump or adjacent to his views.

    This did not start with Bundy and is only peripherally related to TFG. The threat of violence started after Ruby Ridge and Waco and resulted in Oklahoma City. The NRA in collusion with the GOP and domestic terrorist groups repeatedly called into question the leadership of the DOJ, FBI and ATF under Democratic Presidents so they could justify their ridiculous interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. As always, TFG isn’t the disease, he’s just another symptom of a plague that’s been infecting the far Right and GOP for decades.

  52. 52.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @craigie: ​It may mean that behind the septic-tank-high-pressure-hose of TFG’s verbiage-vomit there lurks the Confucian-era hand of the master of inexact calligraphy, T’ai-Po.

    Or it may not. (I’m feeling very uncertain in a Heisenbergian sense theze daze.)

  53. 53.

    PAM Dirac

    @Jackie:

    We can hope for IV – if/when indicted for J6

    I’m not at all sure that there aren’t more indictments to had in the documents case. As far as i know, there aren’t any charges in the current indictment regarding showing or selling the documents, even though there have been reports, at least of him showing classified documents to unauthorized people. I suspect that as drumpf looks more and more like the loser he is, more and more rats will be willing to turn on him to get the best deal for themselves and thus making more and more serious indictments easier to get.

  54. 54.

    NotMax

    Tight schedule for Dolt 45. Barely will have time to scuttle back to New Jersey, trowel on make-up and change into the asbestos pants prior to appearing before the cameras at Bedminster.

  55. 55.

    Falling Diphthong

    @lowtechcyclist: Actually I think most of the current crop are running to step in and take over for Trump when he (is convicted/flees the country/etc).

    I also think Marjorie Taylor Greene has them all beat in this respect, and is his obvious successor. She doesn’t try to sell herself as “Trump but not so dumb” or “Trump but not so crude.” She knows those traits are what the base loves.

  56. 56.

    OzarkHillbilly

    One thing to remember about the Bundy standoffs is Obama was in the White House. He and his advisors would have been derelict to not consider what would happen if he signed off on something that resulted in a WACO like slaughter. Sad to say, but I can’t blame them if that is what held them back.

  58. 58.

    Jackie

    @NotMax: I’m hoping TIFG gets slapped with a stiff gag order curtailing what he REALLY wants to say, but can’t.🤞🏻🤞🏻

  60. 60.

    Layer8Problem

    @NotMax:  That’s the ticket, the perfect counsel!  “My outline is better than the casebook,” or words to that effect.

  61. 61.

    hueyplong

    @Falling Diphthong: We’ll know who Trump’s true heir is when we see one of those ridiculous McNaughton paintings depicting that person as a comic book super hero.

    Guessing that Ted Cruz has already offered to pay for such a work and has been turned down.

    The only certainty is that Trump’s “heir” won’t be one of his actual spawn.

  62. 62.

    snoey

    @Betty Cracker: per wikpedia:

    • 26 militants were all indicted and arrested for federal felony conspiracy offenses and some other individual charges. A 27th militant was indicted and arrested for theft of federal property, but not for conspiracy.
    • Charges against one defendant, Peter Santilli, were dropped
    • Twelve pleaded guilty
    • Seven were acquitted by a federal jury on October 27, 2016[9]
    • Four were convicted by a federal jury on March 20, 2017
    • A total of $78,000 in fines between $3,000 and $10,000 were assessed against thirteen defendants
    • Nine were sent to prison
    • One militant was killed while resisting arrest and one militant was wounded before being arrested.
  64. 64.

    Elizabelle

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Jack Smith’s time at The Hague may have left him less infected by DC attitudes toward Trump. He looks at the evidence and sees crime.

    That’s an excellent point.  Trump, and US policies, look so different from outside the country.

    For us, we are all the little frogs in hot water.  With the FTF NY Times and other cable/broadcast/media outlets normalizing Trump and the GOP every chance they get.

  65. 65.

    smith

    @OzarkHillbilly: Obama was also in the White House when the Occupy protests happened. Those people were in public parks, and didn’t do half the stuff that Ammon and his buddies did. Yet they were arrested, gassed, and their heads bashed in, and as I recall, the main federal response was having the FBI assist local law enforcement.  Take your pick as to the reason for this contrast: Occupiers expressing opinions anathema to cops and the powers that be, or just the fact that the Occupiers were unlikely to shoot back.

  66. 66.

    AWOL

    @S Cerevisiae: I think one turd tried to pull a gun on a Secret Service agent after the withdrawal was agreed to and got to meet his casket a few decades earlier than nature planned.

    Too bad it was only one.

  68. 68.

    MazeDancer

    Because we, no doubt, have plenty of serious days ahead of us, going to continue some smiley times today.

    Fabulous Penzey’s Spices is offering free “Justice for All” Spice Blend today.

    And special, one day only, you can buy $50 gift cards for $35. Which you will be thrilled to use on one of your re-orders.

    If you are not, already, a dedicated Penzeys customer, serious question, how do you manage to cook? And no better way to start then with the nice discount gift card.

    Penzeys.com

    Click on the “offers” circle, lower right.

  69. 69.

    NotMax

    @hueyplong

    Street artist in Cancun commissioned to crank one out, painted on black velvet.

    Taking longer than anticipated as the painter has to stop for frequent puke breaks.

  71. 71.

    Betty Cracker

    @artem1s: I agree Trump is a symptom and that the NRA and its political toadies used violent clashes between the government and extremists to goose gun sales and ramp up divisions. But the point is back then, if you staged an armed standoff against the feds or committed an anti-government atrocity like blowing up a federal building, you had an appointment with a bullet, a flame or a needle.

    For lone wolf nuts like McVeigh, maybe that didn’t matter but letting the Bundy losers thumb their noses at the feds might have suggested to some hard-right extremists that they could act with impunity. Maybe now they know otherwise.

  72. 72.

    eclare

    @StringOnAStick:

    My uncle did the mini triathlons.  Ironman is an entirely different world.  I worked with a guy who did one, he was up at 4 am every morning to work out.

  74. 74.

    JWR

    Just now TFG spokesperson Alina Habba angrily reading a statement which sounded a lot like one of TFG’s unhinged rants doctored up by his lawyers. I’m surprised PBS isn’t in on this media circus yet.

    Any crowd size estimates?

  76. 76.

    eclare

    @PAM Dirac:

    Morning Joe played clips of Christie’s CNN town hall last night.  He said he was certain Smith was holding back some things.  Absolutely certain.

  78. 78.

    cain

    @Jackie: These idiots don’t realize that Trump will never say he is guilty – he will simply say that it is all very unfair and that I should be released from jail because he’s some kind of political figure – and he will demand that the DOJ apologize and recant. He won’t accept anything less. There will be no pardon because that would mean he was guilty. He will never agree to that.

    He will also demand that an official statement from the president that he won the 2020 election and that the current president needs to vacate. That should be fun.

  80. 80.

    scav

    It unexpectedly brings me joy to read reporters  (at the Guard, but any will do) complain it’s hard for them to know what’s going on in a Federal Courtroom actively Federal Courtrooming under these conditions.

  81. 81.

    eclare

    @Kathleen:

    I am surprised he didn’t try to swim the Channel when he was in Europe.  I also worked with a guy who did that.  Part of his training was to submerge himself in a tub of ice for periods at a time.

  83. 83.

    PAM Dirac

    @eclare:

    Morning Joe played clips of Christie’s CNN town hall last night. He said he was certain Smith was holding back some things. Absolutely certain.

    Christie isn’t the only one who is getting very vocal pushing the “Trump is a loser” line. Bill Barr is and the Kochs just made a big ad buy to push that that line. It seems a lot of R money is ready to let drumpf throw himself under a bunch of buses. Also note that Barr and Koch are pretty significant Federalist Society people. I’m not sure, but I think Cannon is more of Federalist Society hack than a MAGA hack. If the Federalist Society line is that drumpf is no longer any use to the cause, she might be much more willing to let drumpf twist in the wind than people suspect.

  84. 84.

    Elizabelle

    I love that C-Span is using Trump’s official portrait (that used to hang in federal buildings, alas) in lieu of a booking photo.

    And, alas, sounds like C-Span is planning to cover the Bedminster “remarks” tonight.

  85. 85.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @smith: I’m just saying it’s a factor to be considered, and yes, the fact that a lot of Bundy supporters are heavily armed plays a part in that.

    As for BLM protests, most of them were policed by locals, not the Feds, which adds another layer of complication, one that I am most certainly not qualified to comment on.

  88. 88.

    Noskilz

    Nice to see Trump looking so dejected when leaving Doral – he hardly responded to his few fans shouting encouragement to him as he left –  and the tiny crowd waiting for him at the courthouse.

    He’s having a very bad day and that’s a good day in my book.

  89. 89.

    Shalimar

    @RaflW: I was very disappointed for all of 2021 with DoJ’s progress on their J6 investigations.  All of the focus was on the heavy labor-intensive investigation and prosecution of low-level rioters with no focus at all that we could see on any planners.  That changed in January of 2022 when they convened a grand jury for the first time to investigate the totality.

    The investigation since then has proceeded quickly, and the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers were also charged and convicted of much more serious charges than most of the other rioters.  In retrospect, this is the way the investigation needed to proceed.  The doubt that first year was whether they would pursue this as diligently as they have.

  91. 91.

    Roger Moore

    @mary s:

    However, the pendulum can (and usually does) swing too far.

    I don’t think the treatment of the Bundys at Malheur was really a problem.  Waiting them out was the right approach; it minimized damage to government property and avoided the risk of turning the occupiers into martyrs.  I wish we could have gotten some convictions, but that’s really a separate issue.  If anything, the risk of not getting convictions is exactly why the government shouldn’t overreact in general; the process of getting the arrest shouldn’t substitute for a proper legal penalty.

  92. 92.

    Maxim

    @eclare: Smith has had two serious bicycling accidents, resulting in a fractured pelvis and a badly injured leg. His Ironman days may (or may not) be behind him, but he won’t have lost the discipline and drive that got him there.

  94. 94.

    SpaceUnit

    I’m working today and can’t follow the festivities very closely.  Did trump manage to dig up a fresh attorney?

  96. 96.

    topclimber

    @PAM Dirac: She probably has more to gain by playing it straight: an honorable place in the history books presiding over one of the most important trials in our history. Anointed as a “fair and balanced” jurist, she would have an even better chance of being successfully pushed by the Fed Soc wing for a higher post. I think she outlives any MAGA hex because like anyone else under 45, she has an excellent chance of outlasting them.

  97. 97.

    gvg

    @PAM Dirac: There were at least 2 instances mentioned of him showing it to unauthorized people. In fact I suspect they both turned him in and and the author may have recorded it all with Trumps permission…

    He showed some docs to someone on one of his PACS and an author writing a book I think.  Boasted. I have read rumors that the author was Woodward. The encounters were described in a ways that would have made me run to the fbi right away. But then, my father worked for a defense contractor and always explained that he couldn’t talk about most of his work and he knew people who got fired…I learned this stuff as a very small child and I just can’t…Anyway he definitely did show it and random club workers had total access.

  98. 98.

    SpaceUnit

    @Maxim:

    Hope they got paid up front.

     

    ETA:  Okay, actually I don’t care if they get paid.  They deserve to get stiffed.

  100. 100.

    ...now I try to be amused

    @eclare:

    Ironman is an entirely different world.  I worked with a guy who did one, he was up at 4 am every morning to work out.

    4 am is familiar. A friend of mine spent the better part of a year training for his first ironman. Hired a personal trainer and turned his life upside down for it. I guess he got the ironman bug because he’s done more since.

  102. 102.

    hueyplong

    @PAM Dirac: A dramatic Trump-Federalist Society rift sounds like a lot of fun, and is definitely one of the best and most likely of our made-up scenarios in which Cannon does the right thing.

    The sooner the two sides loudly threaten one another (physically is ok by me as a welcome change from threatening lefties), the better.

  108. 108.

    Maxim

    @SpaceUnit: If I were a defense attorney near Miami … well, no, I wouldn’t actually be able to tolerate having anything to do with him. But in theory, if I had the stomach for it, I might sign on long enough to ensure the arraignment went forward. It wouldn’t take long before “irreconcilable differences” compelled me to part ways again.

  109. 109.

    Manyakitty

    @PAM Dirac: Barr is making the right mouth noises, but he is still absolute garbage. John Bolton, too. They can take their rehabilitation tours and shove them.

  110. 110.

    scav

    Mid-day Blanquette achieved (south of France champagne-kin)!  Here’s to first and following steps all!

  111. 111.

    EmbraceYourInnerCrone

    @gvg: And his bodyman/valet/whatever is a retired Senior Chief.  Who is now up on charges right next to him, and should be.  He has absolutely no excuse.  I don’t care that Nauta was a culinary specialist, he was a damn Senior Chief.  He knew better, he apparently just did not care.. Why yes this one makes me furious.

  112. 112.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Shalimar: People with experience in organized crime prosecutions (the closest equivalent to Trump world) said from the beginning that that was how it had to work.

  113. 113.

    Roger Moore

    @…now I try to be amused:

    I guess he got the bug because he’s done more ironmans (ironmen?) since.

    It’s not surprising.  Completing an Ironman is probably the culmination of a lot of gateway endurance events, like shorter triathlons or running a marathon.  Once you’ve done it, you’re probably going to want to do it a second time to prove the first one wasn’t a fluke, and then you’re going to be hooked.

  114. 114.

    Elizabelle

    @JPL:  Yep.  Turned MSNBC right off, and will not click again.

    Jackholes. They have an attorney demeaning the grand jury process.  Fuck MSNBC

    ETA:  I clicked off C-Span too.  The problem being:  too much Trump Trump Trump.  We had to pay too much attention to him while he was in his ill-gotten office.  I don’t care to hear media mouths fill time by philosophizing on his electoral chances for 2024.

  115. 115.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    I blame the Idaho jury that paid Randy Weaver. Never should have happened.

  117. 117.

    mrmoshpotato

    But most at least now realize that all the fun and games can lead to serious time in prison. And as the complaints about conditions in the D.C. jails make clear, they don’t have much taste for it.

    Fucked around, found out.  Whine louder, you traitorous Trump trash!

  118. 118.

    PAM Dirac

    @Manyakitty:

    Barr is making the right mouth noises, but he is still absolute garbage.

    I agree completely. Kochs are garbage and so is the Federalist Society. But there seems to be a a bunch of garbage with money and a fair amount of power in R circles that have decided now is the time to publicly brand drumpf a loser. They may or may not be able to pull off a replacement and even if they did it is sure that the replacement would be just as bad from our point of view. I think it does very much increase the odds that drumpf is toast.

  119. 119.

    Elizabelle

    @MazeDancer:   Yeah.  He was trying to push back on the unnamed GOP tool who was complaining about 45 tries at bypassing attorney-client privilege in a grand jury proceeding, but tool was getting all the airtime.

    Just.  No.  Turned it off.

  121. 121.

    Betty Cracker

    @JWR: Briefly saw a helicopter shot of the crowd, and it looks pretty small and pathetic. The on-the-ground shots are tight, which they tend to do for small crowds. Also, the people on the ground look sweaty and miserable. One kook is wearing a U.S. flag as a tunic and has a pig head (looks real) on a spike. Not sure if he’s pro or con…

  124. 124.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @gvg:

    When they were at Clark AB in the Phillippines, my father-in-law spent years telling his family that he was going to TDY in Thailand when in reality he was doing survey work on the effectiveness of defoliants along the Cambodian/S.Vietnam border.  He was so “not supposed to be there” to the point that he didn’t even get the usual Vietnam service ribbon.  It wasn’t until I got him drunk one night after my mother-in-law died that I pried it out of him, sometime around 2010.

    Hell, it wasn’t until March (two months before he died) that he admitted to me that he’d been working on some rice plant rust tailored to decimate the rice harvest in the PRC (they were doing that in Florida, until somebody realized how stupid it was to work on something like that around the Gulf of Mexico and our own rice and sugar harvests).

    He took that security stuff seriously – and damn near to the grave.

    As an aside – the VA checked up on the Vietnam service when we were making the arrangements after he died, and added a reference to his record and stone.

  126. 126.

    To disagree

    @Roger Moore:

    Legally and philosophically you can say it was the right approach to the Bundys… if you’re talking about the right approach for some platonic ideal.

    For the local community it was crushing, devastating to have these clowns terrorizing the town for weeks and weeks and weeks with impunity. Burns will be decades to recover if ever. One core job of law enforcement is to safeguard civilians, and the feds did a terrible job of this.

    This is an extremely poor, persistently economically distressed area, so very uncool to dillweeds like the prev poster above coming through from colorado. The feds have a well-deserved horrific reputation for abandoning any responsibility to ensure the safety of locals in any non-urban area.. Ask anyone on any rez, anywhere USA.

  128. 128.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Maxim:

    I’d do it – for gigantic “fuck off and retire” money, paid in advance.

  130. 130.

    Manyakitty

    @MazeDancer: right? Andrea Mitchell has long since lost her relevance. On the other hand, Andrew Weissman and Joyce White Vance are great.

  133. 133.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Roger Moore: I don’t know.   You could be a James Hunt type where one championship satisfies the itch and you move on or a Niki Lauda type where you want to repeat as many times as you can.  My guess is Smith is closer to Lauda than Hunt.

  134. 134.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Elizabelle:

    Weaver set the standard for “white separatist militia goons can hold an armed standoff, and everyone has to honor their deeply cherished heritage and beliefs while letting them do every crime they want”.

  135. 135.

    skerry

    I just checked the MSNBC feed and heard the reporter saying that the most newsworthy drama today was figuring out which reporters got to go into the courtroom vs overflow room

    I’m done with them

  136. 136.

    ...now I try to be amused

    @Baud:

    Briefly saw a helicopter shot of the crowd, and it looks pretty small and pathetic

    Accurately symbolic.

    Was it mushroom-shaped too?

  137. 137.

    NotMax

    Short Star Trek story waiting to be penned.

    The Enterprise is dispatched into the past to pick up Dolt 45 and whisk him to the future, whereupon he’s beamed over to a Borg vessel. Upon being assimilated into the hive mind, the entirety of the Borg gestalt promptly melts down faster than an ice cream cone at high noon on the 4th of July.

    //

  139. 139.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @raven:

    They called it “bioenvironmental engineering” – really, a form of agrobiological warfare, as I’d call it. War planning back then was really fucked up, as you well know, and he was one of the minions.

    Agent Orange was one of their toys.

    The shame of it is that he was a good man and a good officer, but given tasks of dubious morality.

  143. 143.

    Brachiator

    @The Moar You Know:

    Jail only works as a deterrent on people who have something to lose.

    Trump is deeply afraid of being definitively and publicly branded as a loser.

    It would be interesting to see him try to deny that he wasn’t in prison if he is convicted and sent to jail.

    ETA. I imagine that Trump would be set up with some kind of elaborate home confinement if convicted and sentenced to prison.

  144. 144.

    JPL

    I just saw the view of the crowd from the helicopter and it is small.   I imagine half of those gathered are reporters.

  145. 145.

    mrmoshpotato

    @skerry:

    I just checked the MSNBC feed and heard the reporter saying that the most newsworthy drama today was figuring out which reporters got to go into the courtroom vs overflow room 

    Most newsworthy drama, eh?

    Well, they all decided long ago that they can all suck a dead horse’s rotting asshole, so that checks out.

  147. 147.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Scout211:

    I have never understood why they consider “not guilty” arraignment pleas to be newsworthy.

    A better headline would be “Defendant X arraigned on charges of Y, and pretrial release was granted on condition of A, B and C.”

  148. 148.

    Roger Moore

    @Elizabelle:

    He sued successfully for damages, and the grievance race was on??

    The feds charged him with selling illegal firearms to an undercover federal agent.  He refused to appear and retreated to his rural property, which the FBI surrounded.  During the standoff/siege, his wife and one of his sons were shot and killed in separate incidents.  His son was apparently involved in a firefight with the feds, but his wife was unarmed, in their house, and holding their infant child when she was shot by a sniper.  He was eventually convinced to surrender so a friend, who was also with them and injured in the same shootout where his son was killed, could get medical attention.

    Weaver was eventually convicted for failing to appear in court, but was acquitted of any charges related to the standoff/siege.  He successfully sued the feds for the deaths of his wife and son.  The whole situation was completely botched by the feds, and it’s easy to understand why A) there was a lot of resentment of the situation among the right wing and B) it (together with Waco) convinced the feds to change tactics when dealing with right wing extremists.

  149. 149.

    Elizabelle

    @Brachiator:  I don’t think he should get home confinement.  Other nations have imprisoned their former officials. First world nations, at that.  Why should Trump get a gilded cushion?

  152. 152.

    Scout211

    @Baud: It’s implied, of course. 😉

    The funny thing is, (like an epic novel) it’s all under the title of:

              THE ARREST AND ARRAIGNMENT

                         OF DONALD TRUMP 

  154. 154.

    Deputinize Eurasia from the Kuriles to St Petersburg

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I just had a convo with one of my impossibles – and as bad as he is, he’s light years better than Trump.

    This is a guy who spent most of 2021 in jail for continually violating domestic violence orders with all manner of death threats sent by text message – which he denies doing, even though they’re florid and undoubtedly from him.  Hell, he even threatened me once – I nearly quit, but then he was apologetic once his meds got sussed out.  I think he’s a little out of balance again.

  155. 155.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Roger Moore: I dunno, my son-in-law ran one marathon, at least in part to keep my daughter company. This was 10 years ago. He hasn’t run another. My daughter, on the other hand, has graduated to off-road marathons and now ultra-marathons. People differ.

  156. 156.

    JWR

    Jeebus, Nancy Mace! STFU! Margaret Brennen was barely able to keep from LoLing in Mace’s face, barely concealing an obvious grin. This was quite gratifying to me.

  161. 161.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    Jack Smith was once bitten by a snake during a cross country run. After several hours of excruciating pain, the snake died.

  162. 162.

    Brachiator

    @Elizabelle:

    I don’t think he should get home confinement.  Other nations have imprisoned their former officials. First world nations, at that.  Why should Trump get a gilded cushion?

    Trump is a former president. Wouldn’t he still be entitled to Secret Service protection? How would that work with any conventional prison?

    Trump getting convicted would establish all manner of new precedents.

  164. 164.

    Elizabelle

    @Manyakitty:  I’d be fine with Martha Stewart level incarceration.

    But it has to be incarceration.  Without a boatload of special privileges.  At that point, he would be a convicted federal criminal.

    I want the prison photo that makes Phil Spector look well coiffed.

  165. 165.

    realbtl

    I find this a bit strange (related?). My Youtube feed has zero news about anything right now and for the last half hour or so. Usually at least on the 3rd or 4th line of vids.​

  167. 167.

    geg6

    @gvg: ​

    He showed some docs to someone on one of his PACS and an author writing a book I think. Boasted. I have read rumors that the author was Woodward.

    No, it was two people involved with the book, the author and the publisher. And neither was Bob Woodward. It was the guy who ghost wrote an “autobiography” of Mark Meadows. I heard part of a recording of that meeting and you can hear Nauta snickering and simpering in the background. Sickening.

  168. 168.

    JPL

    ABC’s Katherine Faulders:

    The judge said that #Trump could have no contact with any witnesses in the case — including Walt #Nauta — who currently works for him.

     

    How likely is it that trump will ignore this?

  170. 170.

    JWR

    Apparently, TFG won’t be able to contact “bodyman” Walt Nauta, with whom he’s been traveling the country, further raising the possibility of getting Nauta to flip.

  171. 171.

    Elizabelle

    @Brachiator:  I am more about the “convicted federal criminal” than “convicted former president”, and would suggest that is the way to look at it.

    Will Trump be in the general population? Likely no.  Will he be watched by Secret Service as well? Probably.

    But he did the crime, and he can do his time.

    As can any other federal office holders eventually prosecuted and convicted.  (Josh Hawley, Jim Jordan, any of the howler monkeys whom it can be proven worked to bring about the January 6 insurrection.)

    Trump should never have been president.  He brought everything that followed upon himself.

  173. 173.

    JPL

    @zhena gogolia: I assume she means Parlatore who was a former attorney for trump.   They send him out because he’s able to spew shit with the best of them.   I really want one person to ask if he is till indirectly or directly on the payroll.

  174. 174.

    Elizabelle

    @JWR:  Did we figure out if it is Waltine like Saltine, a delicious cracker, or Waltine, like saline, also salty?

  175. 175.

    Captain C

    @Maxim:

    If I were a defense attorney near Miami … well, no, I wouldn’t actually be able to tolerate having anything to do with him. But in theory, if I had the stomach for it, I might sign on long enough to ensure the arraignment went forward. It wouldn’t take long before “irreconcilable differences” compelled me to part ways again.

    Make sure you have a very loose (for your end) “irreconcilable differences” definition in your notional contract (including the ability to fire the fucker if he doesn’t listen to your legal advice on one occasion, no matter how trivial), and make sure you get at least a million dollar nonrefundable cash retainer.

    ETA:  All notionally of course.

  177. 177.

    Matt McIrvin

    @PAM Dirac: Another thing to keep in mind is that by the time this case actually goes to trial (which I *think* will be sometime in the fall), Trump may have several other federal indictments going in different venues. He already has a state one over illegally structuring his hush money payments to Stormy Daniels. All that both lowers the stakes in any one case, and changes the political atmosphere in which any one of them gets tried.

  178. 178.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @Roger Moore: ​
      He once ran a marathon because it was on his way to work.

    He once brought a knife to a gunfight… just to even the odds.

    His signature won a Pulitzer.

  180. 180.

    geg6

    @Brachiator: ​
     
    This is exactly why Chris Christie spend about half of his time on his CNN “town hall” last night calling him a loser. Literally. Pretty hilarious, regardless of how much I despise Christie.

  181. 181.

    Brachiator

    @Elizabelle:

    I am more about the “convicted federal criminal” than “convicted former president”, and would suggest that is the way to look at it.

    You can’t separate the two. In any event, we are a long way from any conviction. And who knows what will happen.

    Still, Trump’s situation is perhaps making people think about what previously was unthinkable. How to deal with a convicted former president, apart from the constitutional impeachment process.

  182. 182.

    scav

    @JPL: A) of course he won’t obey, that’s a red cape to the idiot and b) how could he manage it other than avoiding M-a-L, Bedminster or firing/replacing all his staff? And family?  Who at this point isn’t a potential witness?

  183. 183.

    Elizabelle

    Novelist Cormac McCarthy has died.  Aged 89.  Did not know he was that aged.

  185. 185.

    David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch

    @Alison Rose: ​
      Interesting photo. Stained suit. No flag lapel pin. He didn’t wear his usual clown orange make-up.

  186. 186.

    MisterForkbeard

    @JPL: I’m told that photo is from a different day – Trump was wearing a red tie during his ‘walk to the courthouse’ today

  188. 188.

    Elizabelle

    @Matt McIrvin:  Yep.  I want those indictments falling from the heavens, like snow.

    Can’t link, but funny twitter meme of Trump yelling at the little kid mowing his lawn:

    ARE YOU A DEFENSE LAWYER?

  189. 189.

    Brachiator

    @bbleh:

    having run over a dozen marathons, I can definitely say running a marathon is dumb and nobody should do it.

    Dare I ask when your next marathon might be?

    ETA. Not saying you are dumb. Just noting a disconnect.

  192. 192.

    Anyway

    @Alison Rose:

    LOLLLLLLL the hair. I hope this photo gets around, because I’m sure TIFG hates it.

    What’s the deal with the blue tie? Blue is OURS, dammit.

  193. 193.

    Manyakitty

    @JPL: did Nauta get remanded into custody or did they bail him out? Can’t wait to see how they work out the witness separation thing. Lolol.

  194. 194.

    geg6

    @Brachiator: ​
     
    Supermax. No need for SS there. They almost never leave their cells and when they do, no other inmates are around. Totally alone. The worst sort of torture for that motherfucker. Which is exactly what he deserves.

  195. 195.

    JWR

    @Elizabelle:

    Did we figure out if it is Waltine like Saltine, a delicious cracker, or Waltine, like saline, also salty?

    That’s why he goes by “Walt”.

    ;)

  196. 196.

    Manyakitty

    @Alison Rose: he’s wearing a blue tie here. I thought someone above described him with a dark blue suit and red tie. Wouldn’t put it past him to change clothes midway.

  197. 197.

    NotMax

    As tomorrow is Dolt 45’s birthday, how subdued will the festivities be?

    A) Very
    B) Very²
    C) Very³
    D) Very∞
    .

  198. 198.

    PAM Dirac

    @Matt McIrvin:

    All that both lowers the stakes in any one case, and changes the political atmosphere in which any one of them gets tried.

    That’s true. I also kind of get the feeling that Smith is setting this up like a start-up company with some VC funding. Put out a solid, if not ambitious, phase one product and show that you know what you are doing and make your “to come” promises more believable and get some of the more cautious funders to start jumping on the bandwagon, so you can fund the really cool ambitious stuff. In Smith’s case I think he is starting to make it very clear that drumpf is going down and if you don’t want to go down with him, you better start making your deals now.

  199. 199.

    Elizabelle

    @JWR:   Saline.  Like drip drip drip.

    I wonder if the networks found it beneficial to cover the indictment.  I be a political junkie, and could not even stand MSNBC.

  200. 200.

    JWR

    I think it’s so funny that TFG won’t be allowed contact with any potential witnesses*, when that’s his entire entourage.

    *At least not about this case.

  202. 202.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch:

    You are all a thousand years too late.  Saxo Grammaticus already gave us the most manly man in history.  STARKAD.

    Starkad was so manly he ate only rotting fish because enjoying food might make him think about battle less.

    Starkad was so manly that when he got disemboweled, he kept refusing rescuers until he found one whose marriage he approved of.

    Starkad was so manly that he died a tragic and dishonorable death of old age, because even as a blind and limping octogenarian, he could find no one badass enough to defeat him in battle.

  205. 205.

    bbleh

    @Brachiator: it’s kind of addicting, but that doesn’t make it not dumb.  December *IF* I get a chance to train, which ain’t happening now.

    But srsly, half-marathons are excellent distance competitions, and they neither require nearly the amount of time to train for nor leave you debilitated for a couple days afterward.  If it’s on your checklist, by all means train up for a full and do it (MCM in DC and Chicago are both lots of fun), but then seriously consider declaring victory and devoting countless hours of your life to something else, preferably less painful.

  207. 207.

    jonas

    @Jackie: I think his thinking (if you can call it that) is that by promising to pardon Trump, people who are uncomfortable voting *directly* for an indicted traitor but nonetheless distrust “the system” will vote for him if he promises to at least pardon Trump, just to stick it to the swamp. The problem is, 1. it’s incredibly stupid, and  2. Trump voters have no problem voting for him before or after he’s convicted. They’re practically looking *forward* to voting for a convicted felon serving his time in a federal supermax (double if he becomes the head of the Aryan Nation, which you know Trump would behind bars). Now *that’s* sticking it to the swamp!

  209. 209.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @jonas: ​

    Trump voters have no problem voting for him before or after he’s convicted.

    I am not at all sure of that. It makes him a loser, and he’s got big loser stink problems already. There’s only so much that beating up wimps like DeSantis can wash off.

  214. 214.

    Bill Arnold

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    ​It may mean that behind the septic-tank-high-pressure-hose of TFG’s verbiage-vomit there lurks the Confucian-era hand of the master of inexact calligraphy, T’ai-Po.
    Or it may not. (I’m feeling very uncertain in a Heisenbergian sense theze daze.)

    Some of his social media output has been written by others, at least Dan Scavino, who has decent stylistic mimicry skillz.

  215. 215.

    geg6

    @SiubhanDuinne: ​

    Ooooo yes, I forgot about that! Maybe they can promise him the BEST and MOST EXCLUSIVE Supermax double cell because he’s so important.

  222. 222.

    jonas

    @Elizabelle: Wow — one of the greatest writers of his — or any — generation. Not everyone’s cup of tea (his writing was dense and esoteric) but I loved him. The Passenger has been cued up on my summer reading pile for a while. Maybe I’ll go ahead and get to that now…

  224. 224.

    evodevo

    @Roger Moore: ​
      And one thing that helped mightily with that, was their unbelievable chutzpah in filming the criming while it was going on, and then posting it on the net LOLOL Hard to deny you were there when there’s video evidence…

  225. 225.

    JaySinWA

    @Elizabelle: Here on the left coast CBS, NBC and the local FOX affiliate had early coverage, ABC didn’t start until after 3 ET. Local PBS had regular programming even on their World channel.

  226. 226.

    UncleEbeneezer

    Nevada GOP Chairman Michael McDonald and Republican National Committeeman Jim DeGraffenreid at the E. Barrett Prettyman Courthouse in Washington, D.C., today, where the grand jury probing Jan. 6 is meeting.

    McDonald and DeGraffenreid were two of the six people in Nevada who signed a document attesting that Trump had won the state’s electoral votes in the so-called fake elector scheme. McDonald has defended signing the document and the FBI seized his phone last summer, a source previously confirmed to NBC News. McDonald testified last year before the House Jan. 6 committee behind closed doors, where he invoked the Fifth Amendment more than 200 times.

  228. 228.

    Kathleen

    @eclare: Wow! I know people who have done that to to recover after a long run but yes. I could see how it could help training. I can’t imagine doing Ironman. A few of my friends have done it but they’re 10 times the athlete I am. It took everything I had to train for and run just a marathon. People who do marathons/triathlons are very disciplined, driven and focused in all areas of their lives. Where does Smith find the time?

  230. 230.

    eclare

    @Kathleen:

    That’s what I don’t get, the time factor.  Are these athletes just super efficient sleepers?  So instead of needing seven hours, they  only need four or five?

    I know my limitations, a marathon is not in my future.  I did a 10k once and did not enjoy it at all.  Granted it was the Peachtree Road Race with about 50k runners, the hassle was just too much.  And that year the t-shirt was this ugly puke brown.  Never again.

  231. 231.

    geg6

    @eclare: ​
     
    I tend to find horror movies (with a few exceptions, very few) boring and stupid, not at all scary. No Country for Old Men is the most terrifying movie I’ve ever seen (even taking into account that I had read the book). Javier Bardem is the scariest villain ever.

  232. 232.

    Ruckus

    @…now I try to be amused:

    The concept is that for most people, they are competing against themselves more than against the few people that can win an Ironman. I was involved with a few Ironman competitors, I owned a triathlon/bicycle shop. I know a couple of Ironman winners, one of them won more than one.

  233. 233.

    Elizabelle

    @geg6:  I have never read any Cormac McCarthy, because I had heard his books were really dark.  Would you recommend I read one, and which?

    I try to avoid non-cartoonish physical cruelty.  Find it too disturbing.

  236. 236.

    Miss Bianca

    @Elizabelle: I’d go with All The Pretty Horses as a starter, just because that’s the one I started with.

    ETA: I’ve read several Cormac McCarthy novels and haven’t found them too grimdark. Maybe I was’t reading the same ones everyone else has been? Never tried No Country for Old Men or The Road, they seem to be pretty intense.

  237. 237.

    James E Powell

    @Alison Rose:

    Since today is 25 years since my high school graduation, I’ll let myself daydream about TIFG getting 25 years in prison.

    You made me realize that today it is 50 years for me.

  240. 240.

    Elizabelle

    @Miss Bianca:  Thank you.  I think I actually own a copy, from a library sale.  But never opened it.

    @zhena gogolia:   Yeah.  Without knowing anything about his books, it does seem like that.

    There is a whole world of literature out there.

  241. 241.

    karen marie

    @MazeDancer: Even doing it digitally, someone has to hold each of his fingers and roll it to get the full print. Trump hates being touched.

     

    🤣

  242. 242.

    Brachiator

    @bbleh:

    If it’s on your checklist, by all means train up for a full and do it (MCM in DC and Chicago are both lots of fun), but then seriously consider declaring victory and devoting countless hours of your life to something else, preferably less painful.

    A former girlfriend ran marathons. And a lady commuting buddy was a serious runner. Cheering them on is the closest that I came to even thinking about running a marathon myself.

    These days, when it comes to serious exertion, I follow the example of humorist Oscar Levant.

    When asked what he did for exercise, Levant famously groused, “I stumble and then I fall into a coma!”

  243. 243.

    karen marie

     

    @JPL:  You probably know by now but that report is incorrect. Trump was ordered to not discuss the case with witnesses.

    We all know Trump isn’t capable of complying, so it will be interesting to watch it play out.

  244. 244.

    geg6

    @Elizabelle:

    McCarthy may not be for you.  Lots of violence and a very dark world view in all the books of his I’ve read.  Maybe The Road is his best, IMHO.  He got a Pulitzer for that one.  His stories are set in the South and/or Appalachia.  My go-to after reading McCarthy is to pull out a Larry McMurtry book to remedy the gloom that McCarthy always sends me to.  I also adore his writing.

  246. 246.

    Elizabelle

    @geg6:   Yes.  Rest in peace, Larry McMurtry.

    I visited his bookstores in Archer City, TX twice.  Saw his cat, and bought some good tomes.

  249. 249.

    Elizabelle

    @geg6:  Not a fan of Conroy, must admit.  Will have to think of a good recommendation or two for you.

    @MazeDancer:   Thank you.  A consideration, for sure.

  250. 250.

    Kathleen

    @eclare: I’ve been running 38 years and trust me if I got paid for every crappy run I could retire! I’ve scaled  way back but I still run along with doing other workouts. I think you’re right – he probably doesn’t sleep much and has every moment of his day meticulously planned.

  251. 251.

    StringOnAStick

    @To disagree: Burns is full of pro Trump signs and pro Bundy billboards on the sides of buildings.  I suspect the majority there felt the Feds were interfering with the God given rights of the Bundys to take over that wildlife refuge, given the town is full of signs supporting the takeover.

  252. 252.

    Robert Sneddon

    @geg6: ​
     

    There’s a precedent for incarcerating high-ranking prisoners — Rudolf Hess was held in Spandau prison under military guard until he died. There’s no reason something like that couldn’t be done with Donald Trump if he is found guilty and given a custodial sentence. Fort Knox might be a suitable facility, with a bit of remodelling.

  253. 253.

    kalakal

    @Robert Sneddon:

    The same thing happened to Petain, locked away in a 20th century version of the Chateau d’if until the last few weeks before he croaked during which he was basically comatose

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