I’m not sure House Repubs will inevitably make Jim Jordan speaker, completing their surrender to the same brand of minoritarian rule by radicals they’ve foisted off on the rest of us. The radicals have been running the place since January anyway, but of the many ambulatory poop factories in the House GOP conference, Jordan is one of the most embarrassing, and his speaker bid is unsurprisingly ham-handed.
Jordan has dispatched supporters in metaphorical singlets across social media to attempt rhetorical piledrivers on recalcitrant colleagues. Over the weekend on Jake Tapper’s show, Repub Rep. Dan Crenshaw denounced this campaign to convert fence-sitting members into supporters.
“That is the dumbest way to support Jordan, and I’m supporting Jordan. I’m going to vote for Jordan. And as somebody who wants Jim Jordan, the dumbest thing you can do is to continue pissing off those people and entrench them,” he said.
Crenshaw is a terrible lawmaker but doesn’t seem like an irretrievably stupid person. This sets him apart from the majority of Jordan backers in the conference, including my crappy rep, whose office told me is “proud” to support Jordan.
I wonder if it occurred to Crenshaw that Jordan’s campaign for speaker is a preview of how a Speaker Jordan would operate once empowered, i.e., innumeracy followed by loud, dumb bullying combined with absurd Twitter histrionics? Probably, but here we are. The latest is that Jordan will learn his fate tomorrow. Several reps who had loudly proclaimed themselves Never Jordans last week flipped to yes today, so it’s possible the rest will fall in line.
It’s hard to see how making a bellowing fool like Jordan the face of Repub power will be anything other than a disaster for House Repubs in the long run. But working with Democrats to avoid that catastrophe probably puts them in physical peril from their nutty base and possibly even some armed colleagues, so they might judge it the least-bad option. That seems most likely but no sure thing.
However, if the Repubs in Biden-won districts, potential House retirees, etc., rally to try to stave off a Jordan speakership by working with the Dems, it sounds like House Democrats will be ready, according to Greg Sargent (WaPo gift link):
First, some Democrats want to reform the “motion to vacate” rule so that a single member can’t force a snap vote to remove the speaker on a whim, which is exactly how Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) dethroned Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.). One idea Democrats are mulling, according to a House aide, is requiring a majority of the party in control of the House to support the motion to vacate before it can happen.
Second, Democrats are discussing the idea of a mechanism that would give them more leverage over what bills get a floor vote, even on things many Republicans oppose — such as continued Ukraine aid (likely coupled with aid to Israel), and bills funding the government at levels that many in both parties can accept…
In fact, Democrats can reasonably demand still more for helping elect a Republican speaker: Why not a permanent repeal of the debt limit, which has been used as a weapon by far-right members in the past, leading to chaotic standoffs?
“Those are absolutely the kinds of ideas we should be talking about,” says (Progressive Caucus Chair Rep. Pramila) Jayapal, though she declined to get ahead of Jeffries on the specifics of their demands. The core goal, she said, should be disabling the GOP’s “use of things that never used to be controversial to move their extreme agenda.”
In other words, Dems are considering measures to make an ungovernable legislative body capable of governing again. It seems unlikely that they’ll get that chance, but all of the scenarios in this timeline seem absurd, so who knows? If you’re unfortunate enough to be repped by a Repub, it might be worth calling them to register your dismay at the possibility of a Speaker Jordan.
Open thread.
dmsilev
Maybe. But in the Trump era, bellowing fools are in the ascendance in the GOP.
Trivia Man
My humble suggestion: Mittens for Speaker! He resigns his senate seat early and basks in all the adoration from his bipartisan cheerleaders. And second in line to the presidency in case he is right about being the answer to a “prophecy”!
MattF
One sidelight of the present situation is that Rep. Gaetz has vanished. I doubt that he’s stopped trying to attract media attention, so maybe the all-seeing eye has (finally) had enough of him.
Cameron
The trouble is, if he’s a disaster for the country in the short run, we may never have a chance to find out what his effect on House Republicans is in the long run.
dmsilev
@MattF: Dare we hope that someone has formed the “Wrap Matt Gaetz in Duct Tape and Throw Him in the Broom Closet” Caucus?
CaseyL
Of all the reasons to not have Jordan in the Speaker’s Chair, it’s that “2nd in line for the Presidency” that most makes me break out in cold sweat. Not least because the Secret Service is deeply compromised.
Geminid
I want to see how Rep. Don Bacon votes. Joe Biden won Bacon’s Omaha-based district in 2020 (and its Electoral College vote). Bacon’s last three elections were close..
Bacon’s also ready to retire, I think. He already retired 11 years ago, as an Air Force General. Bacon probably looks at Jim Jordan as the kind of guy he’d put charge of the motor pool.
.
Cameron
@MattF: I’m pretty sure I saw Rep. Balloonhead on teevee on Saturday, but I forget which show (Smerconish?).
Bupalos
I feel like dems facilitating mccarthy’s ouster is another indication that we haven’t actually come to terms with where political gravity is inevitably pulling the Republican party
That was like saying “I’m going to call your bluff here” to a falling rock.
Geminid
@Trivia Man: Someone like retired Pennsylvania Rep. Charlie Dent would check the more important boxes that Romney would. Rep. Bacon floated this Speaker scenario in January, although he did not mention Dent by name. It’s still a longshot though.
Other MJS
Excellent post title. 😊
trollhattan
From the bad news/good news cabinet, Norwegian archaeologists are capitalizing on vanishing mountain snow and ice packs to harvest Viking, Iron Age, Bronze Age and neolithic artifacts, greatly expanding their knowledge of prehistoric peoples. The rate of snow loss is appalling; the finds are amazing (and will decay rapidly if not found).
Shalimar
New pet peeve: Ecuador has elected a new president, a 35-year-old who is heir to a huge banana fortune. The Wall Street Journal’s headline calls him a “banana entrepreneur. ”
Inheriting daddy’s money is not a god-damned entrepreneur.
Bupalos
Is that actually hard to see? Who has been the face of Republican power lo these several years now?
Bupalos
@trollhattan: we’ll find put about extinct cultures just in time to become one.
hueyplong
It’s a decent bet that Gaetz would be obnoxiously visible and vocal within minutes of a vote making Jordan speaker.
Ken
@Other MJS: Odd that the URL is “__trashed-606”.
Ukai
@Shalimar: There’s always money in the banana stand.
randy khan
I said this on the earlier thread, but I think Jordan won’t get elected if the vote tomorrow has a solid bloc of anti votes among Republicans (call it 20, but maybe as few as 15), and definitely will be elected if the initial count is 10 or fewer. In between, I’m not sure what will happen.
Basically, the more opposition there is, the easier it will be for them to stand together, but they will get much less courageous if there aren’t very many of them.
And since nobody in the caucus can count votes, they may not know until the vote is over.
smith
May I register an objection to providing cowardly Rs with an out by recognizing that of course, they have to fear for their lives from violent MAGAs? This is something that Dems in red areas probably have to figure into their lives every damn day! And those fearful Rs are the ones who have kowtowed to MAGA violence, potential and real, since 2016, and have consistently emboldened and empowered them! Let them reap what they sowed.
MattF
@smith: Cowardice is the salient trait here. These are the people who all stood aside when Cheney was removed from her leadership position and declared RINO non grata. It’s who they are.
Bill Arnold
@CaseyL:
What’s your estimate of the half-life of a (hypothetical) SotH(->POTUS) Jim Jordan if both the POTUS and V-POTUS are assassinated? Mine is 2 months.
David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch
One disaster after another:
It now looks like the Rangers are going to the World Series.
Sister Machine Gun of Quiet Harmony
Yesterday, I had hope Gym would go down in flames. Today, I know he will be the next speaker. Damn. The GOP really like their sex offenders and enablers, don’t they?
ColoradoGuy
The image I keep seeing is a group of blackmailers all blackmailing each other. A medley of musical chairs, a game of chicken, and Mafiosi all bluffing each other.
Not an honorable man or woman in the whole lot. Not one.
japa21
@David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch: Nope. It’s going to be Arizona.
Betty Cracker
@smith: I don’t think acknowledging reality is the same as offering an out.
@Bupalos: As the minority of Americans who pay attention know, the Freedom Caucus morons have been running the House since January. But they had an amiable-ish dunce with an expensive haircut as the face of the one chamber they control. Jordan would be a downgrade, at least on the PR front.
Geminid
@Bupalos: A Speaker Jordan will still be a bad look, I think. He comes across as a disreputable man; a jerk.
Mitch McConnell was never that impressive a figure, and now he looks like he’s about to dry up and blow away. Jordan will be the face of Congressional Republicans if he wins tomorrow.
Karl Rove would be shouting “Don’t do it!” if he still had any influence, which he doesn’t. Rove’s probably taken up scrapbooking or some other low stress hobby like model railroading.
skerry
@CaseyL: The fact that Jordan as speaker will have access to highly classified information makes me break out into a sweat. This is a real thing starting once he’s speaker
Bill Arnold
@skerry:
I hope the intelligence community has plans for such an situation.
Canary traps are one approach.
West of the Rockies
Sometimes I feel like an idiot. My parents passed in ’08, before BHO was even the nominee. Sarah Palin would have been unknown to them as they passed in March. They were what were then described as sane, moderate Republicans. They donated to worthy causes, were not homophobic, and were not rabid “pro-lifers”.
I thought at the time that regardless of political differences, there were a number of rational, “nice” Republicans. I thought they could compromise, recognize true evil (Putin), and could hear reason and science, despite the worst among them at the time: Limbaugh, Gingrich, etc. I was so naive.
They truly no longer seem to exist. Some of them left the party: Nicole Wallace, Michael Steele, David Jolley… others just sidelined themselves or were voted out (Cheney, Romney).
I wonder how we will emerge from their current (and worsening) malice and stupidity. How will history regard these times?
I DO think we will emerge victorious. But, fuck, these are crazy-making, dangerous times.
Geminid
@skerry: I think Jordan will be entitled to the information the administration chooses to brief to the other 3 leaders.
Speaking of briefings, the Senate will meet behind closed doors Wednesday to hear briefings by Secretaries Blinken and Austin, and director of national intelligence Glaspie.
cain
The bullying by Jordan is exactly how he staves any one member using the vote to kick him out.
The first that does will be made an example of. He will come upon them hard – and he’ll have his 8 dimwits to back him up. It’s going to become a very rigid GOP caucus and you can expect a conflict between the House and the Senate GOP members.
Andrew Abshier
My Congresscritter is Greg “Bang-Bang” Steube, a proud member of the Freedumb Caucus.
I’ll call his office, but it will be a waste of time.
Jackie
Yes, their glee when the MAGAts threaten Democrats has the same Rethugs turning into chicken shits at the thought of the MAGA coming after THEM!
TriassicSands
Maybe it is if you live in a banana republic.
cain
@hueyplong: But I wonder if we can set the two of them against each other and create even more rancor. Boy wouldn’t that be entertaining?
Power can do all kinds of things to people and I bet the dude will have an authoritarian streak that will want to make Gaetz act like a cowering cartoon character.
Geminid
@Jackie: As far as I know, no one attacked David Valadeo or Dan Newhouse and they voted to impeach Trump. I don’t think a Speaker vote will produce as more rage than impeachment did, and it may not even produce as much. I think Republican Reps have to worry about political survival and not physical survival.
Other MJS
@Ukai: Afghanistan banana stand.
Jackie
@David 🌈 ☘The Establishment☘🌈 Koch: Best of seven, but I want to see the Cheaters OUT in 4. Then I’ll root for the NL winner to win the WS.
Subsole
@Geminid:
One very, very small joy of the last two decades has been watching that odious, vile little man’s influence evaporate.
West of the Rockies
@cain:
He is a classic junior high bully boy.
hueyplong
@cain: Hope you’re on to something.
gene108
Does anybody want the Speaker’s job besides Jordan?
Scalise tried but couldn’t rally support.
At some point the House needs a Speaker to move things forward, and after waiting and waiting and waiting some people lose patience and are “fuck it, I’ll take whatever’s available (even if it’s bad)”. I think Republicans are getting to this stage.
They’d be in a lot of trouble with their voters, if they need Democrats help to do the bare minimum to govern. This isn’t about threats or being ostracized from the party, but rather the public embarrassment of needing Democrats to save Republicans from themselves.
Jordan versus Republican public humiliation, I think Jordan wins.
The Lodger
@Geminid: Well, that fits. Rove’s been arranging train wrecks for decades.
gene108
@trollhattan:
Canada’s doing the same thing in parts of the Yukon Territory and U.S. archaeologists are doing this in parts of Alaska.
Betty Cracker
Re: baseball, we’re still watching, but I don’t really care who wins since all my rooting interests washed out. Just hoping for exciting games!
hells littlest angel
True. Irretrievably craven, yes. Irretrievably cynical, yes. Irretrievably dishonest, yes. Well, I could go on, but the point is that he is not irretrievably stupid.
TheDeadlyShoe
Inheriting a business counts as entrepreneurship by the WSJ’s standards.
NotMax
One thing I’ve not seen addressed. By tradition (unfortunately not by rule) a Speaker does not serve on, much less chair, any committee.
Suppose it’s possible a pact to uphold that tradition is something negotiated to garner the votes of those now belatedly announcing support for Jordan.
Brachiator
I would like to see the Democrats get something out of this. But we’ll see what happens.
When you cut through the noise, what is the difference between Jordan and McCarthy?
Snarki, child of Loki
Modify the House “dress code” to REQUIRE MTG and Santos to wear Clown Shoes.
smith
@Brachiator: If Jordan can get to 217 by strong arming the Rs, the Dems won’t get anything beyond what they had with McCarthy.
frosty
I called my useless Republican Congressman Lloyd Smucker earlier today. He’s planning to vote for Jordan, so I told him I didn’t want that and to get behind a Speaker who wants to move legislation, and even work with the Democrats. I used some of valued commenter Tobie’s language in the previous post, because it was so good:
I said the world is watching, the reputation of the House has been irredeemably damaged by the shenanigans around the speakership, and that more than ever the House needs to prove that it is filled with serious lawmakers, not flame throwers.
It was almost like reading from a teleprompter!
piratedan
@Brachiator: one is a craven asshat who will say anything to anyone in order to hold the reins of power (McCarthy); the other is a cruel opportunist who is willing to exploit others to the benefit of those he follows.
McCarthy, when it came down to it, got a 45 day CR thru.
Jordan, would likely arm his fellow coup supporters and attempt to overthrow the government.
Geminid
@Subsole: Karl Rove might have been on to something with his projected “permananet majority.” George Bush blew that one up with his stupid Iraq War.
That war might have been a turning point for the GOP. It drove some moderates away for good. More importantly, I think, the war discredited the Republican Establishment and Rove’s “Center-Right” party model along with it. Now the Bush name is trash, and the Populists have built a “Right” Party.
Betty Cracker
@gene108: Scalise’s failure to attract support was the same as Jordan’s — maybe less since Scalise beat Jordan head-to-head once. I guess ol’ Steve had a vestige of establishment in him since he took no for an answer. Jordan is more shameless — that’s the important difference. We’ll see if it works.
wjca
Dare we hope that Sen Tuberville will be home in Florida at the time?
cain
@hueyplong: Remember at one point Gaetz, MTG, and Boebert were all friends and that fell apart.
Cameron
@Brachiator: I’m wrestling with that right now. So to speak.
Geminid
@piratedan: McCarthy also helped get the Debt Ceiling raised. He had to be dragged into it, but that was still a big one. I think a debt ceiling raise is now off the table until Spring of 2025, at least if revenues hold up..
wjca
This.
TriassicSands
@smith:
One difference might be that Jordan won’t make agreements and then back out, because he will never make any agreements with Democrats. If he did, I don’t doubt his ability to be just as dishonest as McCarthy was.
Democrats will all need to get ear plugs and face shields to keep the
newly elected “Shouter’ of the House from spitting all over them as he bellows out his commands.
MazeDancer
Gonna be a hard 12 months ahead, if Jordan is made Speaker.
.But no bad bills can become law.
Just let him try that National Abortion Ban. That’ll help tank the GOP.
And we will be buoyed by the fact that all 18 of the GOP Reps in Biden districts will get slaughtered. Among them right here in NY – Mike Lawler and Marc Molinaro
terraformer
If there’s one thing I’ve learned about Republicans,
it’s that when the chips are down, Republicans always come home.
I guess we should steel ourselves for fcking Jim fcking Jordan as Speaker of the fcking House.
Good GAWD
smith
@TriassicSands: I left a comment in the previous thread that we will see the fruits of Jordan’s extremism when/if he can force through the treason caucus’ Simon Legree budget. He won’t negotiate with the Senate, he may not allow a vote on a CR, so there’s a good likelihood the government will shut down.
Geminid
@MazeDancer: Are Albany Democrats proceeding with their new redistricting plans?
Argiope
My new rep is Bob Latta and my old one was Gym. (AFAICT, this is the only good thing to come from OH
redistrictinggerrymandering.) I called his office and suggested anyone who objected to certifying the last election shouldn’t hold the gavel and that he should vote no on Jordan. Latta was not with the insurrectionists. Suggested he maybe consider running instead. Won’t happen, but I tried.JaySinWA
@Other MJS:
I looked up to the address bar to remind me what the title was and found this:
https://balloon-juice.com/2023/10/16/__trashed-606/
Usually the web page matches the title. I wonder if the blog is sending us a message
ETA
@Ken:
got there first.
Geminid
@Argiope: Is Bob Latta the last Latta? Or are there more Lattas lurking in the Buckeye State.
WaterGirl
@Ken: @JaySinWA: I think sometimes Betty starts a post and then for whatever reason she puts it in the trash, and then decides to resurrect it after all.
The URL goes to trashed when it goes in the trash, and you have to manually change it if you want it to be different.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: What is wrong with these people. If someone tried to strong-arm me to vote them into office, my response would be hell no. Stronger than before.
MazeDancer
@Geminid: Dems are trying. The GOP won a temp freeze. Judge will have hearing on that Nov 15th.
Though there may have been other developments. My band-width doesn’t have room for things I cannot control.
Betty Cracker
@JaySinWA: & Ken: In the backend of the blog, if you trash a post and then later retrieve it from the bin, you should probably rename it. But I never remember to do that.
@WaterGirl: Same!
JaySinWA
Promises made?
Promises broken?
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/16/jim-jordan-house-speaker-ukraine-israel-funding
Geminid
@MazeDancer: Thanks.
It’s hard to keep up with so much happening now.
cain
@JaySinWA: Fucker hasn’t even started and he’s already mired in quicksand.
JaySinWA
@WaterGirl: I imagine that would depend on what they used to strong arm me. Threats against family members, blackmail material, or successfully rallying the most virulent MAGA crowd against me might make me at least appear compliant
ETA kompromat was a term I was trying to remember.
Bupalos
@Brachiator: ukraine funding and shutdown is probably the difference we know about. Who knows what else the bombthrower caucus can come up with.
Both will probably make a Trump win more likely rather than less. The one by creating a worse situation on the ground in ukraine, the other by damaging the economy.
If Jordan gets the speakership, this was a very bad reflexive play by Jeffries and the dems.
WaterGirl
@JaySinWA: I would go public with the threats, very public, and do everything I could to make sure he didn’t get more power.
CarolPW
@CaseyL:
At that point even I (pacifist old white lady) would buy a fucking shotgun and shoot all the MAGA motherfuckers I could get to.
piratedan
@Bupalos: enough of this only Dems have agency bullshit…
If Jordan becomes speaker it will be entirely on the backs of GOP House members who voted for him.
Geminid
@piratedan: Dems had a choice. But I think they made the right one when they didn’t throw McCarthy a lifeline.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
nonsense, McCarthy chose not to reach out too Dems. He could have gotten the likes of Gottheimer and Golden to vote present with a handful of starbursts
TriassicSands
@WaterGirl:
But you aren’t a Republican living in fear of being primaried by the bullies in your own party. I think it is fair to say for most Republicans their list of priorities is something like this:
Caving in to the demands of bullies is just one of the ways they can enhance their chances of keeping their jobs. Republican voters don’t seem to care much when so-called “moderate” Republicans vote for really cruel, stupid, and extreme legislation, which is how the GOP gets legislation passed in the House. If representatives thought that getting voted out in an election were a greater threat than getting voted out in a primary, we might see different behavior.
Argiope
@Geminid: You made me Google. He appears to have an array of grandspawn, but I don’t see anyone who is obviously lining up to go into state politics.
danielx
@Shalimar:
C’mon, you don’t realize TFG is the best most incredible entrepreneur ever to grace this world?
TriassicSands
The difference is primarily measured in decibels and liters of spittle
ETA: Most Republicans think that the more times one tells a lie, the truer it becomes. Jordan believes that the louder he shouts a lie, the more convincing it must be.
linnen
Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney are ‘nice’ Republicans? Being only 5% less aligned with the “Cruelty is the Point” caucus hardly qualifies one as even nice in air quotes. Like every Never-Trump Republican, their only objection to Trump is his saying the quiet part out loud and with a mega-phone. And respect for the Constitution with their oath of office should be the minimum standard. Not something to elevate them.
Repatriated
@Shalimar:
Banana-mal Magnate-ism.
wjca
I think at least part of what’s wrong is that a lot of them are realizing that they have gotten themselves into a place where there simply are no good choices. So they are struggling with the reality that they are going to have to figure out their least bad choice. And all of the choices they can see so far are, to be fair, pretty horrible for one reason or another.
Making the mental leap to a previously unthinkable choice isn’t easy.
tobie
@Andrew Abshier: This thread is long since over but I just wanted to let you know I called Greg Steube’s office (for my mother, who approved me doing this), and the aide answering the phone was shocked that I wanted to register my opposition to Jordan. He asked whom I would want as speaker and the best name I could come up with on the Republican side was Tom Cole (OK). No, I don’t like Cole but I don’t think he’d hold up aid for Ukraine or cause a govt shutdown.
Bupalos
Sometimes I just want to say to fellow dems “can you hear yourselves?” Is he somehow going to look more disreputable or more of a jerk than Trump? And would that result in more or less votes for Republicans? Do we understand that our assumptions about this are constantly proving to be wrong?
We gotta snap out of this “heighten the contradictions” shit. If Jordan becomes speaker, it means we fucked up. Really bad.
Nettoyeur
@Geminid: Glaspie was Bush’s ambassadador to Iraq, long since retired. Avril Haines is now DNI.
Bupalos
@piratedan: This meme is being stretched to ridiculousness, and “entirely on the backs of Republicans”… I don’t even know what that is supposed to functionally mean. On their backs how? That you feel really comfortable that they are to blame and can sleep at night while Ukrainian kids die? Or some vain wish about how the American electorate works? What is that actually supposed to mean, that it’s “on their backs?”
Fact: Dems had absolute agency on whether to save McCarthy or not.
We chose not.
I admit it was emotionally incomprehensible to do otherwise, even if reason (as I saw it) said do otherwise. But the reality is dems had 100% control of a binary choice.
Door #1 – McCarthy
Door #2 – see where Republican entropy leads.
I think we still underestimate the harm behind door #2.
Bupalos
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I can’t even understand this line. Do people think there’s some metaphysical measure other than “what actually happens?”
McCarthy “chose not to reach out.” Therefore speaker Jordan is on him. Therefore the shutdown is on him. Therefore a few thousand Ukrainian soldiers are on him.
What is this supposed to mean? Who cares who it is “on?” Who has time to even decide who it is on? It’s reality. It’s human damage and economic damage. It’s a reality that is going to make Trump II more likely.
Geminid
@Nettoyeur: Thank you for the correction. A sloppy mistake on my part.
Geminid
@Bupalos: I can hear myself as well as you hear yourself.
I am not making a “heighten the contradictions” argument. And yes, I believe Jordan as Speaker will cost Republicans votes, especially among Independents.
And I stand by my assertion that Democratic leaders were right not to throw McCarthy a lifeline.
Ruckus
@dmsilev:
Maybe. But in the Trump era, bellowing fools are in the ascendance in the GOP.
Maybe.
But in the Trump era, bellowing fools are the GOP.
Fixed it for you….. I mean you aren’t wrong either but really after SFB/TFG and his ongoing disaster of everything is about him, him, him, and him instead of about the country, the economy, the rest of the over 330 million of us, our actual place in the world instead of where he’d like us to be, behind vlad’s place (he likes billionaires over actual leaders even if or maybe because the are richer than he is, you know, money makes the man. (Although it hasn’t made him one)
Ruckus
@Geminid:
Bacon probably looks at Jim Jordan as the kind of guy he’d put charge of the motor pool.
Nope. The motor pool has to actually work. Like being in the Navy, the things that moves everyone, the things that help it do it’s job, have to work and work well or the entire thing is a complete waste. They may pontificate about leadership till your ears hurt but they know that if those on the bottom do not do their jobs and do them well, they are completely and totally fucked. They knew this when I was in and they know it now. They may not always act like it, but if they are any good at all – they know it.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
One is more obnoxious than the other?
Your choice which is which….