A newly published U.S. Army regulation says a service member can be referred to as a “Negro” when describing “black or African American” personnel. The Army confirmed the language is contained in the October 22 “Army Command Policy,” known as regulation AR 600-20. The regulation is periodically updated but the Army could not say how recently the word was added to the document.
In a lengthy section of the document describing “race and ethnic code definitions,” the regulation states under the category “Black or African American” that would include, “A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. Terms such as “Haitian” or “Negro” can be used in addition to “Black” or “African American”.
The Army, along with the rest of the military, collects extensive demographic data on the makeup of the military force for issues such as equal opportunity and ensuring discrimination does not take place.
One Army official familiar with the document said it’s possible the word was added so when forms are filled out, a black or African-American person could “self report” and choose to identify themselves as a Negro. But a military officer specializing in personnel issues for the Defense Department called that “the dumbest thing I have ever heard,” noting the Pentagon does not use the word in any of its extensive collection of demographic data.
I’m going to go out on a limb and guess this will be the fastest an Army regulation has ever been changed.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
Considering the way things are going, Cole, I imagine the only outrage will be that they’re not allowed to use the real n-word.
Baud
The dumbest thing a military officer ever heard is pretty damn dumb.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: “That’s about as messed up as three dogs fucking in a watermelon patch at midnight.” A statement I once heard someone use while I was an army officer.
tBone
I’m going to guess that the person responsible for this could self-report as “cracker” or “honky”.
Baud
Putting on my Devils Advocate hat, isn’t negro the Spanish word for black? Since it’s next to Haitian(?), maybe the intent was to allow Latin American blacks to use the Spanish term.
JPL
Supreme court Judge Roberts will take it upon himself to determine whether or not this an accurate description.
Tommy
That word, “Negro” was a phrase my grandfather used to say. A long, long time ago.
mai naem mobile
I guess native americans can be called reds or red indians or redskins or squaws right? And chinese can be called yellows?
srv
I turns out Bill Kristol was right
metricpenny
Black person here that doesn’t mind being referred to as a negro.
It’s the southern pronunciation that’s usually offensive – nigra.
And we know how those southerners love them some military service.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s a phrase I’ve never heard until tonight. I’m not sure whether to thank you.
Violet
@Tommy: It’s a word, not a phrase.
@JPL: In Justice Roberts’ post-racial America, “Negro” is nothing but a word.
Omnes Omnibus
@metricpenny: I’ve always assumed that the offensiveness of certain terms must vary somewhat based of the age of the person saying it. A 99 year old using “colored” might be less offensive than a 29 year old since “colored” was the the polite term back in the 99 year old’s youth whereas it has been derogatory throughout the 29 year old’s life. But then I might be just talking through my hat in which case I’ll just shut up.
JPL
@Gin & Tonic: I for one, will not google it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic: It stuck with me. I heard only once – more than 20 years ago.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus:
Should be a rotating tag for this place.
skerry
OT, but welcome good news – The 22 yr old woman abducted in Philly (abduction caught on surveillance video) last Sunday has been found alive “in good shape” in Jessup, MD. The suspect is being held on a Virginia capital murder warrant and is awaiting federal charges in PA.
Howard Beale IV
Just how fast can we turn back the clock?
As much as it pains me to say this, I urge those who can to start buying firearms and ammo-after all, the new majority is going to protect your rights to do so. Remember-when the world gives you lemons-make lemonade.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve got an older relative from England who uses “colored.” It’s kind of difficult between the age issue and the cultural issue to determine if it’s offensive. I figure when she’s here, she’ll get a pass both for age and accent. Plus, she’s nice and it’s clear she’s well-meaning, which goes a long way.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@Howard Beale IV:
I’m honestly convinced it’s more like this these days.
Tommy
@Violet: Word phrase whatever. My grandfather was racist. He did a lot of amazing things in his life as a doctor, but he felt people that didn’t look like him were less of people. He never used the “N” word around me, but the word negro was often used. It had meaning. It wasn’t a positive meaning.
GHayduke (formerly lojasmo)
What. The. Fuck?
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
Actually, I think it’s the other way around — “Haitian” is actually kind of nasty euphemism going back to the 1980s when they were banned from immigrating because of AIDS. To me, including that as an option is the “tell” that “Negro” is supposed to be derogatory.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tommy: And yet the word Negro was used quite frequently by MLK Jr. It did not have a negative meaning.
jacy
@Tommy:
My elderly mom still sometimes says “colored” and then the grandkids jump all over her. Funny thing is, she was a huge Civil Rights proponent when I was little, and our house was filled with blues and soul, we all knew who Moms Mabely was, my mom’s hero was Muhammed Ali. (keep in mind we’re Scandanavian/Irish from Wyoming and Nebraska who grew up mostly in Southern Colorado). As little kids (before we got tossed out into the real world too much) we didn’t realize anybody thought there was any difference worth noticing between blacks, whites, and Hispanics. She’s still a product of the language of her time.
Baud
@Mnemosyne:
Oh, I didn’t know about that use of “Haitian.
Tommy
@Violet: I mentioned in another comment about using the phrase (or as you’d say word) negro. I have family members that use the phrase “colored.” I cringe when I hear it. I am like what the hell is this the 50s?
Patricia Kayden
To be fair, my former roommate self-identified as Negro. I thought it was kind of eccentric. My 70 plus Mum still uses the term Colored from time to time.
JPL
@Patricia Kayden: When my lily white blond hair son was five he asked me if he was colored. In his world everyone was. Something to think about.
CZanne
@Omnes Omnibus:
So two dogs, or in the living room, or at 2:37 PM is somehow okay?
Thanks for the phrase. That person had quite the way with imagery.
schrodinger's cat
No human being is really black or white, aren’t we all varying shades of tan and brown?
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, yeah, but that’s only because James Brown hadn’t finished changing our language yet.
ETA: My favorite PBS documentary about rock n roll did an entire episode on the cultural transition between “Under the Boardwalk” and “Say It Loud (I’m Black and I’m Proud).”
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: I’m kind of pinkish, if you must know.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: I have that PBS series on VHS.
mai naem mobile
John Roberts believes in a post racial society that he went to Ireland to adopt his blonde blue eyed twin babies. I guess he couldnt produce his own possibly because hes ghey.
Mnemosyne
@Baud:
I remember it from the 1980s. (Yes, I am officially old now.)
@schrodinger’s cat:
I tend to lean towards ivory. In Hawaii, I will be addressed as “sharkbait.”
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: Somehow the early stages of AIDS were the “H’s” – Haitians, heroin users and homos.
Tommy
@jacy: And I totally get what you just said. I was raised in a household where racism just wasn’t acceptable. There is a story I tell. I played golf as a youth. Went to college on a Division I scholarship playing said game. Most days I played rounds with a guy named Andy. He was “black.” His parents were never around and we kind of adopted him into our family. My mom drove us to tournaments. I recall going to one, and somebody said “that nigger won’t play here.” Keep in mind this is the 80s, not the 50s.
Mom ripped the golf bag out of my hands. Threw it in the trunk. Said a lot of words I’d never heard come out of her mouth, and we left.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Like a snow monkey?
Mike in NC
@Tommy: My grandmother in the 60s actually used the word “darkies”.
skerry
@JPL: My blond, blue-eyed daughter self-identified as “pink” when she was 3. She was right. Her skin tone was pinkish, not white.
Just Some Fuckhead
@schrodinger’s cat: A Porch Elain?
Corner Stone
Man, there’s some kind of weird downward spiral going on round here.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: A far paler pinkish.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Tommy: Perhaps in your world negro had a negative meaning, but in mine it certainly didn’t. It was in this area more formal than “colored” and/or more prone to be used (by white folk) in a higher SEC. I believe that several prominent civil rights activists used it; MLK comes to mind.
And “word phrase whatever” is verging on rude, in case you care.
Mike in NC
As a Navy type, I dealt with Army folks on several exercises, but never did get used to their ridiculous use of the term “hua”.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike in NC: It’s primary an affliction of infantry types. Most other branches try to avoid it. Don’t the marines have “oo-rahh” and a congenital inability to call cadence in intelligible English?
skerry
@Mike in NC: The lyrics to Stephen Foster’s “My Old Kentucky Home”, (written circa 1852) and the KY state song since 1928 were changed in 1986 in the state legislature to modify “darkies” to “people” for official state functions. Foster’s lyrics:
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Tommy: What the fuck is up with your snotty arguments over speech parts?
That doesn’t verge on rude – it is rude, and for no real reason. My relatives who might say colored are dead, but I know some folks that are kin to friends of mine who still use colored. And they are black. Would that make you cringe? Some of it’s generational and regional.
jacy
@Tommy:
Moms are awesome.
Tommy
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): There is something about the word that I have to differ to those it is used as to tell me if it is offensive. I personally don’t like the word. I find it offensive. But maybe I am wrong. It would not be the first time I was wrong :).
Tommy
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): How is that rude? I was mocking myself. It was a word and not a phrase as was pointed out. People need to get a clue here and not be so anal.
Fluke bucket
Do African Americans have a preference?
Gin & Tonic
@Tommy: Dude, it wasn’t “negro” that was the point, it was your gratuitous “the phrase (or as you’d say word).” One word is a word, it’s not a phrase.
Violet
@Mnemosyne: Where are you going in Kauai?
Mike in NC
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes
Tommy
@Gin & Tonic: You have way too much time on your hands.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Tommy: Sorry all my clues have been used. I’ve got a surfeit of commas.
You may have thought you were mocking yourself, but the construction of the parenthetical suggested you were mocking Violet. That was the rude part. Something like
would have been more suggestive of self mockery.
I suspect you’re going to find some of us entirely too anal for your taste. Which sounds creepier than it’s meant. But there you have it.
skerry
@Tommy: Maybe your grandfather used negro as a euphemism for the other “n” word, but civil rights leaders used it for decades without prejudice. Think what NAACP stands for. Think about how MLK, Jr. used it. I seem to remember somewhere reading that John Lewis said some of the younger people in the 1960s started to use the term “black” much to the chagrin of MLK and other elders. I looked quickly for a link, but didn’t find one, so I could be wrong.
As a white woman, I tend to follow and respect what people use for self-identification. Not always successful, but I try. I was raised in a sundown town in Indiana in the 60s and 70s, and heard many words and phrases applied to POC and none of them were respectful.
Gin & Tonic
@Tommy: Thanks.
Keith G
@Baud: Nor did I. Maybe it was very localized.
Tommy
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): You got to be kidding me. I was in no way rude. I could yell and scream about many things. I didn’t. If my comment was, well I guess we can not have a conversation.
Keith G
@Gin & Tonic: Not so fast grammar queen:
I know outrage is fun, but save it for better, and in this case actually meaningful, targets.
Gin & Tonic
@Keith G: Thank you for your contribution.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Tommy: There are more kinds of rude than yelling and screaming. I suspect you’ve heard all you like about my views on the interaction. Perhaps someone else, perhaps one who has too much time on his hands, can explain it more clearly.
schrodinger's cat
Has anyone seen Comrade Bob, off late? I saw him on the Snooze Hour yesterday!
Pogonip
@Baud: *chortle*. You got that right.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: My hue on the other hand depends on the season. I am several shades lighter in winter than in summer.
MattR
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): How is Tommy being any more rude than Violet was for initially and unnecessarily pointing out Tommy’s mistake? IMO, your behavior has been the rudest (though I may now take that crown by interjecting myself into the conversation, but I am not going to pretend otherwise)
Gin & Tonic
@schrodinger’s cat: I saw him on the Snooze Hour yesterday!
¿Que?
Keith G
@Gin & Tonic: You are quite welcome. Just working overtime to set the world
straighterr,rightum, on a better course.schrodinger's cat
@Gin & Tonic: Stephen Cohen, the Russia expert, spouting same stuff as Comrade Bob.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@MattR: I love winning. I’d hope the Russian or German judge might have different scores though.
I could get all pedantic by offering lots of definitions of phrase as “two or more word” when used in defining grammar as opposed to sentence analysis, but why annoy everyone in the thread?
Omnes Omnibus
@MattR: And now this seems necessary.
Pogonip
I know people who have gone from “colored” to “negro” to “black” to “African American” within their lifetimes.
I’m pink except in summer when I turn farmer-tan on the arm not shaded by the steering wheel.
Does anyone remember Color Me Beautiful? For the life of me I could never figure out whether I was an Autumn or Winter, and wasn’t about to pay $250 to find out.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Do you do much appellate work?
Gin & Tonic
@schrodinger’s cat: Oh, him. Fuck him sideways with a rusty chainsaw.
skerry
@schrodinger’s cat: Personally, I tend to become more muted in winter, the freckles fade. In the summer, I become high contrast as the freckles darken and my skin “bleaches” – never tans.
jake the antisoshul soshulist
I am sort of pinkish beige and my ancestors are mostly from the British isles. I identify as a human. However, I am beginning to develop a real prejudice against “white people”.
Mnemosyne
@Violet:
Everywhere! It’s a pretty small island. But we’re staying in Lihue, which is relatively near the airport and in the middle of the coast, so it’s easy to get everywhere from there.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Oddly enough I did at one point. I called a retiring appellate judge recently who said “I haven’t seen you in a few years – do you just win all your cases so forcefully that the other side doesn’t bother appealing or have you been out of town?” Judicial humor at its finest.
I’m sort of looking for an appellate gig as my NAMI gig ends at the end of the month due to our acquisition by a larger affiliate. I don’t think my MS will let me reliably try cases all day every day, but appellate arguments a few times a week would be feasible.
Marc
Almost as ill-conceived as the next regulation: “A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa who has made a statement of questionable veracity or controversial merit shall be disputed in a civil tone with all necessary pleasantries, such as ‘Negro, please.'”
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
I can see how that would work. A major portion of it is brief writing, and oral arguments are much shorter than trials.
scav
anyone remember the unknown change to the Air Force oath of service that no one can really remember making it impossible for Atheists to omit the word “God”? Two dots are a line, not quite a trend, but hmmmmm all the same. Invisible gremlins changing regs . . .
Keith G
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Oh that’s okay, I would not be annoyed as I tend not to embrace pedanticism. It is certainly the case that in everyday understanding, a phrase consists of two or more words; and there are other usages. So, I did not understand the gratuitous, undies-in-a-bunch reaction to a previous commenter.
When, ” It’s a word, not a phrase” was typed above, I thought, “Oh great. What’s next, citing him for a comma fault?”
This is blog commentary. For many it is typed on the fly in between doing the things that make up a real life. If one disagrees with an argument, confront the argument and not the usage and diction. It really galls me when Richard types one of his valuable and well thought out health care posts and some one snarks him for an editorial oversight.
Personal note: As I age, I am most annoyed at how my cognitive processes have changed in interesting and sometimes unfortunate ways. I never was a grand typist, but now even when just typing a rather simple sentence, I can be surprised at what actually gets typed. The keyboarding mistakes are there, but so are words that were typed correctly but were seemingly pulled out of a parallel universe. It’s really a bit scary at times. Even after a self edit, some slip through to submission. That is a reason why I try not to comment punitively on issues such as this.
SiubhanDuinne
@Violet:
(I’m not even sure how this happened, but for some reason this reply ended up in the thread downstairs, where it was completely irrelevant. Trying again.)
@Violet:
I cringe to relate this story, but when my great-aunt (born 1887) moved to Atlanta in the late 1960s, she was out shopping one day and saw an AA woman wheeling her baby in a stroller. “Oh, what a cute little pickaninny!” said my aunt.
~ ~ CRINGE ~ ~
@Violet:
I cringe to relate this story, but when my great-aunt (born 1887) moved to Atlanta in the late 1960s, she was out shopping one day and saw an AA woman wheeling her baby in a stroller. “Oh, what a cute little pickaninny!” said my aunt.
~ ~ CRINGE ~ ~
But when she was a younger woman, this was
SiubhanDuinne
FYWP
CONGRATULATIONS!
The way I see it, the only acceptable term should be “black”, as it is simply descriptive with no potential for misunderstanding. Or dog-whistle bullshit.
I’ll take my opinionated opinions and go elsewhere now, as damn, this is a landmine of a thread for a white guy.
AxelFoley
@metricpenny:
How old are you? Because I know no black person born after the 1950s who doesn’t mind being called that, myself included.
Like I said on Twitter, good luck with that, Army. Run up on the wrong “Negro” and see what happens.
AxelFoley
@Omnes Omnibus:
No, you’re correct.
Basically, the only time black folks use the term “Negro” today is when we’re joking around with each other. But, no, most blacks that came of age post-Civil Rights Era don’t refer to themselves with that term.
C.V. Danes
Post racial America. Yep.
Jado
@schrodinger’s cat:
Some of us are pasty-Irish-guy pink. Tan is a dream for a lot of us…
Xenos
@jake the antisoshul soshulist: self-designated “white people” are almost as bad as self-designated “decent people”. And I fucking can’t stand self-designated “decent people”. Rotten bastards, all of them.
Barry
@Omnes Omnibus: “And yet the word Negro was used quite frequently by MLK Jr. It did not have a negative meaning.”
MLK also wore really, really skinny ties.
Full metal Wingnut
@Violet: You know I will admit to being an old person who sometimes misses nomenclature changes.
I’ve said “minority” almost my whole life as a “polite term”-I honestly did not know what else to say. Then a few years ago I went to a book reading by a well known feminist author and she used the term “person of color.” Apparently that was the better term for minority. Just like it’s apparently “STI”‘ now instead of “STD.”
I dunno. I like to think I’m not completely oblivious to these language changes but they’re easy to miss if you’re not plugged in like the kids are.
And by the way, “colored” is no longer a polite term, but “person of color” sounds an awful lot like it. In fact, for a few days after first hearing it, I couldn’t believe that it was the PC term-it sounded like “colored”-I’m old and even that term has been inappropriate for most of my life! *Shrug* whatever people want to be called is fine by me. It’s just hard for an old to keep up sometimes.
Full metal Wingnut
@Mnemosyne: I believe you, but then what do you call people who are actually from Haiti? West Hispaniolans?
Full metal Wingnut
@mai naem mobile: I like to think of myself as progressive, but I don’t know if I could be a good father to an African American child.
I’m a white guy, I really have no frame of reference to understand racism. I know it exists, but again I’m white, I feel like it would be hard for me to really relate to my child or help them navigate a racist society. So I dunno, I can’t be too harsh on Roberts here. Although Roberts is probably wealthy enough that the kid would be fine, I’m not
Full metal Wingnut
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): It certainly does now though. There’s no excuse to use “negro” today, no matter how old you are. Language evolves.
Full metal Wingnut
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): People who are members of the race in question can call themselves whatever they want.
But language evolves. It is absolutely unacceptable for a white person to use that term today.
jafd
Well, I’m a ‘white’ person in my 60’s, brought up in the Middle Atlantic. My parents said ‘colored’ when I was young (note NAACP, deabbreviated). Negro was the term widely used in the 1960’s by supporters of the Civil Rights Movement.
Now, if you want to be referred to as ‘black’ or ‘Afro-American’ or…, I will try to remember that. If I forget, I’m sorry.
If I’m trying to insult you, you will know it loud and clear, and I won’t do it because of you skin color.
Thanks for your forbearance with an old man.