Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

We still have time to mess this up!

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

In my day, never was longer.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

Infrastructure week. at last.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. let’s win this.

The willow is too close to the house.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

You are here: Home / Economics / C.R.E.A.M. / Open Thread: Hard-Earned Pushback

Open Thread: Hard-Earned Pushback

by | 187 Comments

This post is in: , , , ,

Even the Ragin’ Cajun, per Politico:

“Somebody is going to hell” over the political attacks on the Clinton Foundation, longtime Clinton confidant James Carville declared Tuesday, denouncing the recent scrutiny and criticism of the charitable organization.

If the Clinton Foundation had decided not to accept foreign donations while Hillary Clinton was secretary of state, as it has recently announced it would do if she is elected president, Carville said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” that the “good” thing would be that the organization would not be part of the political discussion.

“The bad would be you’d be out hundreds of millions of dollars that are doing good. What the Clinton Foundation does, it takes money from rich people and gives it to poor people. Most people think that’s a pretty good idea,” Carville said…

“I wish I could say the word I want to say. I’ll just say that’s BS,” Scarborough remarked. “You know the fact is if it’s a great charity and it’s a five-star rated charity, guess what, other people can raise the money. It doesn’t have to be Bill Clinton calling somebody up making people think, if I give him money it could help me out. If it’s a great charity, it can stand on its own and other people can raise money for it. It’s not a zero-sum game. It’s not having Bill Clinton raise money while his wife is running for president or else we’re all going to hell and little kids are going to die across the planet.”

“They’re gonna,” Carville shot back. “The other thing is, Bill Clinton has more charm and people around the world have an enormous amount of faith in him. I’ve traveled with him. I’ve seen it myself. There are not many people that have the relationships and are held in the affection around the world as Bill Clinton.”

But Joe Scarborough and his fellow Media Village Idiots are never gonna meet any of the people the Clinton Foundation has helped at a Beltway cocktail party, so who cares what happens to them?

Reader Interactions

187Comments

  1. 1.

    amk

    toldja morning moron will be back to kissing donnie’s ass despite getting his teeth kicked in by him juts a day earlier.

  3. 3.

    Baud

    While we all know Joe is an idiot, let’s be clear that having anyone else raise money for the Clinton Foundation would have been regarded by the media as scandalous also.

  4. 4.

    Miss Bianca

    Right! Because remember, appearance of impropriety is *way worse* in the Clintons than actual impropriety is for anyone else!

  6. 6.

    Lizzy L

    Clinton Rules: anything the Clintons do (separately or together) is [assumed to be] corrupt because the Clintons are doing it, and anybody who works with them or for them is probably also corrupt. Evidence is entirely unnecessary. Hell, it’s a distraction.

  7. 7.

    Patricia Kayden

    Good for Kaine. There should be a hashtag #Releaseyourtaxes to shame Trump into releasing his tax returns. He’s getting away with not doing something which all Presidential candidates routinely do.

  10. 10.

    Frankensteinbeck

    other people can raise the money. It doesn’t have to be Bill Clinton calling somebody up

    Actually, it does, and your entire life is built on the kind of social situations where people are more likely to give millions of dollars because a famous, charismatic guy like Bill Clinton is willing to personally shake their hand, Joe.

  13. 13.

    redshirt

    @Frankensteinbeck: Yeah, that’s a dumb comment.

    It could be Bill Smith calling you asking for a million dollar donation to a worthy charity, or Bill Clinton, ex-President and future First Gentleman asking the same. Hmm. Which would be more effective?

  14. 14.

    chopper

    to be fair, joe’s putting up a standard right wing response to the idea of charity – “can’t somebody else do it?”

  15. 15.

    randy khan

    I’m glad Carville is pushing back hard, and on exactly the right point. There are people who claim to be smart who think it would be *good* thing to shut down the foundation, not just limit who could make contributions. That’s freaking insane. The foundation supports some very important work, including reduced cost HIV/AIDS drugs, investments in sustainable agriculture and reductions in carbon emissions, and job training in the U.S. Shutting it down would end these initiatives, or at a minimum slow them down significantly while they found new homes.

  18. 18.

    randy khan

    @Frankensteinbeck: And you can be sure that Joe Scar knows that who makes the call matters. It’s a basic principle of charity fundraising (heck, of political fundraising), and I’m sure he’s made plenty of calls himself and been called by plenty of people.

  22. 22.

    Jeffro

    Also since this is an OT: Steven Tyler’s new CD is some seriously countrified, no-surprises-but-still-well-done, fun.

  23. 23.

    Miss Bianca

    @randy khan: this gets to the heart of what has always pissed me off about Americans: we are constantly mistaking symbol for substance. Constantly. Shut down or restructure the Clinton Foundation, which is probably the most transparent foundation run by a public figure out there, when it’s *actually* doing good work, because “oh noes, Teh Optics!”

    @randy khan: Or maybe he *hasn’t* had that many people respond positively to a Joe Call, and he’s just miffed because Bill Clinton *has*. It would be irresponsible, etc etc.

  24. 24.

    redshirt

    @Raven: Not surprising I suppose as what, 90% of artists are Liberals. And why wouldn’t they be?

    I always find the right wing’s longing for Springsteen’s support hilarious, because it’s clear based on his lyrics and his life he’s not a right winger, and yet they seemingly still hold out hope.

    You’d think if you were SO into an artist (Christie), the fact that he/she is 100% opposed to you politically would open your eyes. Maybe.

  26. 26.

    PhoenixRising

    @redshirt: Cher is, above all else, or aside from all else, a mother.

    Her only baby Chastity was gayer than a Disney parade as a teen, back in the Reagan administration. Chas is now a dude. Whose mama bear knows what’s best.

  27. 27.

    patroclus

    @redshirt: That was one of the (many) reasons that they didn’t always get along. She’s VERY liberal, but in 1992, she was very taken by Ross Perot for awhile, once calling into Larry King’s show and saying that she was ready to give up her career and work for him. Thankfully, she didn’t.

  28. 28.

    Raven

    @efgoldman: I dunno, I’m on sick leave for the week and I can’t make my 6 am walk so. . .My intervals for the pain meds is every 4 so I’m waiting for the 11pm dose.

  29. 29.

    James E Powell

    @redshirt:

    You’d think if you were SO into an artist (Christie), the fact that he/she is 100% opposed to you politically would open your eyes.

    I assume you are familiar with the Dixie Chicks?

  31. 31.

    hovercraft

    @amk:
    Actually this morning they used the CGI/ e-mail crap as a distraction from Trumps attack on them. Donnie Deutsch kinda tried to raise it, he was like are we going to talk about this, are we gonna just ignore it, and basically they brushed it aside and started pounding on Hillary. It was strategy, we’re too serious to dignify your nonsense, we have this much more important things to discuss.

  34. 34.

    hovercraft

    @redshirt:
    From the last thread:

    @redshirt:
    We are a nation of laws, stop illegal immigration, build the wall.
    No more bad trade deals.
    No more dumb wars.
    I’m pretty sure that Coulter was for both Iraq and free trade before she was against them. As for Tweety he has always had a thing with immigration, he laments the lack of enforcement in Reagans amnesty, and he accuses democrats of not actually wanting immigration reform, but merely wanting to use the issue against republicans.

  37. 37.

    geg6

    @redshirt:

    Wingnuts live in an impermeable bubble where they think their “heroes” actually agree with them. Latest example? Bradley Cooper, who has outraged them by not actually being the nutcase winger American Sniper who he played in a film. As if playing a role in a movie means you sign on to everything your character believes. Only slightly different with Springsteen in that they willfully misunderstand every lyric he ever wrote and project all their own garbage onto him and pretend he’s talking to them. He’s a Real Murkin, so he must be one them.

  39. 39.

    Peale

    @geg6: I believe Mr. Cooper had a hot gay sex scene with Michael Ian Black in a movie. Are you saying that was just for show, too? ;)

  40. 40.

    hovercraft

    So Kellyanne Conway has a secret number of undercover Trump voters. Online polls are more accurate than phone polls, because it has become unfashionable for college educated people to admit they are Trump voters. The two pollsters say bullshit.

  42. 42.

    redshirt

    @Raven: Zing! He was off-trailing though, wasn’t he? Which means he was an excellent skier who got in over his head briefly, and died because of it. I’ve know some dudes.

  44. 44.

    Raven

    The foundation reports that it has raised $2bn (£1.5bn), employs more than 2,000 workers and maintains an annual budget of more than $223m (£170m).
    The rating group Charity Watch gives the Clinton Foundation an “A” and reports that 88% of the money the foundation brings in goes to its programmes, with the rest spent on overheads – surpassing the benchmark for reputable charity groups.

    As opposed to the fucking bandits at “wounded warriors”

  46. 46.

    joel hanes

    @Raven:

    That bowl full of mostly-dead trees at Heavenly (where Sonny ate one of those trees, fast) can be pretty tricky.
    I stayed out of it unless I was on really really short skis. And even then.

    But he was Clear, and had convinced himself that he had gnarly OT Powerz to control reality via “intention”

  47. 47.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Raven: Cher was always the talent. Sonny was an A&R man at heart. As a skier, I don’t want to go out hitting a tree. That is I why I don’t drink and ski and I keep my eyes on where I am going when I ski.

  49. 49.

    redshirt

    @Raven: I know for a fact Stephen King was FREAKED out not just by the pain of his accident in 1999 but by the pain killers they used on him for the very reason you mention. And becoming addicted again, as he wasn’t 24 years clean by far at that point. He’s getting there now though.

  50. 50.

    TS

    Joe got all bothered about being called out on his personal relationships so spent ALL of his next show attacking Hillary – got to get back in the good books of Trump. What a fraud all of them are.

  52. 52.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @joel hanes: I’ve never skied Heavenly; it was a bowl of trees? One has to respect the mountain and know what one can and cannot do. I tend to like longer, G-S type skis, so I would never have done a run like that.

  53. 53.

    J R in WV

    G’Night, Raven!

    Hope you feel this good in the AM, don’t forget to take your 3 am meds!

  55. 55.

    Raven

    @redshirt: l’ve had 3 occasions to use pain meds post surgery. What I have found, for me, is that they wire me but they do their job as far as getting me over the hump. These are 10mg percocets and he said every 4 hours. If a
    I fall asleep between now and the next that’s great. If not I’ll hit another one. I have more than half of the pills from the other surgery so I think I’m good.

  58. 58.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Raven: Pain meds taken for pain are a different thing from those taken for “pleasure.” They don’t count against your sobriety and they shouldn’t interfere with it, you cranky sob. :P

  60. 60.

    Davebo

    @Raven: That’s a good thing, because if you’ll take a look at your badge you’ll see that you don’t have one.

    BTW, got two Columbia Omni-Shade UPF 40 fishing shirts at an outlet mall yesterday for less than 30 bucks a pop! Should have gotten five.

  62. 62.

    hovercraft

    So the Trump campaign is considering trips to urban areas, including a trip to Detroit with Ben Carson at his side to give him a tour of impoverished areas. This according to Ari Melbor on msnbc. He wants to shed the ‘racist’ label.

  63. 63.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @hovercraft: Are you going to forget what he said? Are Latinos going to forget? Jews? ETCs? He’s already burned it down. And fuck him too.

  64. 64.

    Raven

    @Omnes Omnibus: yea, I’m good, guess I’ll see if I can sleep. Did you catch it last week when
    I posted that my buddy died. He was a canon cocker who did his tour with 4th div arty and then became a coal mining engineer in Louisa, Ky. He was getting cancer treatment at the VA inHuntington WVa, got in a motorcycle wreck and we think the treatment weakened his heart and we lost him.

  66. 66.

    Mnemosyne

    Say you’re a secular European country that’s been having major problems with home-grown Muslim terrorists. Sociologists say that the young Muslims in your country are being radicalized because they feel that they’re being discriminated against and oppressed. Do you:

    (A) Take the complaints seriously and make it illegal for people to discriminate against others based on religion; or

    (B) Start arresting women who wear religious garb to the beach

    Jesus fuck. I am going to be saddened by the next homegrown terrorist attack that hits France, but I absolutely will not be shocked. They just can’t stop hitting themselves.

  67. 67.

    Raven

    @Davebo: I bought a really nice one for my Maui trip but my lucky fishing shirt is a long sleeve from a bbq in Lexington, Nc!

  68. 68.

    Luthe

    NPR told me this afternoon the Repugnants want a special prosecutor to investigate the Clinton Foundation. Because that worked out so well last time…

  70. 70.

    Raven

    @redshirt: Glad I’m not that. The smack epidemic hit Vietnam about three months after I left. I always knew
    I dodged one there because, if it had been there,
    I would have done it!

  74. 74.

    hovercraft

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Not only will I not forget what he said, but taking Carson into the black community as his validator is just dumb. Carson used to a revered figure, Gifted Hands was required reading for black kids. But then he called Obama an Uncle Tom, then he accused him of wanting to keep black people on the plantation, then he said that Obamacare was the worst thing since slavery, shall I go on? So my advice to Trump is please proceed, bring Carson along with you, that will really pump up your numbers. Ben Carson was almost as offensive as Trump during the primary, the media mostly gave him a pass because he spoke softly and apart from a brief moment never looked like he was going to win, but we heard him load and clear.

  75. 75.

    Raven

    @Major Major Major Major: I had people tell me that if I didn’t do AA I wasn’t really sober. I’ve seen them drinking, I don’t. I will say that, even though my life was centered on booze and dope, the 1st shrink I met wit said I wasn’t an alcoholic.

  80. 80.

    Origuy

    Can someone free my comment from moderation in the post two back? I was giving redshirt some links about orienteering and I got carried away.

  82. 82.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @redshirt: Well; shall we ask if raven was an opiate addict or if he just drank too much? Or should we respect what he has said.

  84. 84.

    redshirt

    @Raven: Count yourself lucky! The new chic way to become an addict is to have a surgery, get a prescription, and indulge. When it runs out (after far too long), good luck!

  86. 86.

    hitchhiker

    @hovercraft:

    He wants to shed the ‘racist’ label.

    Ship sailed, sir. Does he really think that nobody remembers his Obama-is-not-legit parade of stupidity? Or does he not realize that said effort was racist? Cannot believe this election.

  87. 87.

    MCA1

    @redshirt: That’s all due to an irony/humor detector deficiency. They don’t grasp that Born in The U.S.A. and Glory Days (and CCR’s Fortunate Son and others) are actually critical of ‘Murka, however mildly so.

  89. 89.

    Anoniminous

    @efgoldman:

    And Tush Limpblah was railing about “lesbian farmers” the other day.

    I add it to the ever-growing pile of evidence in support of the thesis: they are cretins.

  91. 91.

    redshirt

    @MCA1: Indeed. They don’t get the actual intended meaning of the art. Yes. But you’d think they’d get that after a while and move on. And yet, Christie still begs for Springsteen recognition.

  92. 92.

    redshirt

    @satby: I have to say I loved “The Martian”, both book and movie, if for none other than two reasons: 1. It made science and scientists seem cool, and 2. Iron Man reference by Luis from Ant-Man then a direct shot of Bucky Barnes smiling. Who got blasted by Iron Man in the year’s blockbuster “Civil War”.

  93. 93.

    Raven

    @redshirt: Fuck that, this was elective since
    I had no symptoms, but the evidence is that they don’t get better and it’s best to get them fixed while one is relatively strong. Btw, I have a dear friend who is a counselor and he has hair raising tales about opiate addiction and the problems that come with it in the community.

  95. 95.

    redshirt

    @Raven: I meant this example: Have back surgery, get pain killers. Take all the pain killers you are prescribed. Want more. Get more. Want more. Can’t get more, so…….

    This is a path of addiction for millions of “normal” Americans these days. Anyone can fall into it – a 65 year old housewife or a 22 year old punk.

  96. 96.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @hovercraft: That is, as you know, was exactly my point. I have an intimate friend who is an immigrant, Hispanic, and Jewish. Do you think she will forget any of the insults? Nor will anyone who happens to be any one of those. Nor will anyone who give any kind of shit about anyone in any of the categories either of us mentioned. And then the womens…. And you may notice the AA insults.

  97. 97.

    nutella

    @VOR:

    This story and France’s stupid beach rule pisses me off. Not just for the Islamophobia and the NERVE of a government telling women what they can wear, but because I am the one looking weird walking on the beach in long sleeves, long pants, and a hat. In spite of these precautions I have not one but two types of skin cancer, which apparently is something France wishes to encourage.

    Does anyone know what happened with the no religious headcoverings law in France? They passed it some years ago to prevent anyone with a hijab from entering any public building but were then shocked to find that restricting ‘religious headcoverings’ would restrict MEN, too, if they were wearing a yarmulke or a Sikh turban. Did they ever figure out how to resolve that?

  98. 98.

    The Ancient Randonneur

    @Anoniminous: I hope HRC doesn’t wait too long after Inauguration Day to unleash her Feminazi Squads to grab all the guns and force men to do more housework.

  104. 104.

    Splitting Image

    @Mnemosyne:

    Say you’re a secular European country that’s been having major problems with home-grown Muslim terrorists. Sociologists say that the young Muslims in your country are being radicalized because they feel that they’re being discriminated against and oppressed. Do you:

    (A) Take the complaints seriously and make it illegal for people to discriminate against others based on religion; or

    (B) Start arresting women who wear religious garb to the beach

    Jesus fuck. I am going to be saddened by the next homegrown terrorist attack that hits France, but I absolutely will not be shocked. They just can’t stop hitting themselves.

    It tells you everything you need to know that the individuals becoming radicalized and committing terrorist acts are nearly all men, and the official response is to ban women from wearing the clothes they want to.

  105. 105.

    Uncle Cosmo

    Open threWad, so–

    We laid Skyler to rest today at about noon, the day after a packed house at the viewing. Amazing the number of people (his age & older) he touched in 28 all-too-short years. A bunch of his college classmates stopped by my brother’s place in the afternoon & I now feel like I have a whole brace of new nephews & nieces. We will get through this…but the holidays are going to be hard

  108. 108.

    Mandalay

    Heh…adjacent headline’s in Britain’s Daily Telegraph…

    Woman forced to remove burkini on Nice beach while another given fine in Cannes

    Hijab approved as uniform option by Scotland Police

    From the French article: …the ban in Villeneuve-Loubet was “necessary, appropriate and proportionate” to prevent public disorder…

    From the Scottish article: Police Scotland said it is working to make the force “representative of the communities we serve.”

  109. 109.

    joel hanes

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    it was a bowl of trees?

    My memory insists that it was Mott Canyon, but the accounts I find through Google seem to intimate that Rep. Bono shuffled off this mortal coil on the Dipper Bowl marges, having chosen a high-speed duck-over from the Orion trail.

    Heavenly trailmap

    Orion’s an easy blue.

    youtube video of the Orion run

    By all accounts, Rep. Bono was a fine skier, who had skied Heavenly regularly for 20 years.

  111. 111.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @nutella: Republican France has a long history of laicism. One needs to understand the role of religion in repression in France.

    TLDR: France is not the US.

  113. 113.

    Mnemosyne

    @nutella:

    As far as I can tell, it’s A-OK to publicly wear a yarmulke in France, but not a headscarf.

    Gosh, I have no idea why French Muslims would feel the “no religious garb” laws are specifically targeted at them, or resent the fact that French Jews can wear their religiously mandated garb but French Muslims can’t. It’s a total mystery!

    And, yeah, one can’t help but notice it’s specifically Muslim women who are targeted, while Jewish men can wear what they want.

  115. 115.

    Anoniminous

    @efgoldman:

    The guy has been losing audience and shedding advertisers. I don’t understand why iHeart stuck with him.

    But I don’t know the radio business so … shrug

  116. 116.

    Mnemosyne

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    My condolences again. For me, one of the most beautiful images at the DNC was the bereaved mother of one of the Orlando shooting victims being supported on either side by friends of her late son. It was so clear that their mutual grief had made them into a family. I hope something like that can come for you out of this terrible loss.

  118. 118.

    Lizzy L

    @shomi:

    Hopefully the media does its job and reports that instead of carrying water for the right wing echo chamber.

    Have you been on this planet long?

  120. 120.

    Punchy

    @shomi: Also about as likely: man bites hippo, it snows in Miami, the spawn picks only 1 outfit to wear tomorrow, and Trump is a billionaire.

  123. 123.

    PJ

    @Omnes Omnibus: I believe all overt religious symbols (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, whatever), including clothing, are banned in public schools and public offices. There is a question as to whether the law also applies to any kind of public space (the beach, the gym, restaurant, movie theater, etc.) and it has been haphazardly applied in ways that are not constructive (trying to ban Muslim women from wearing the hijab, or a burka, at an all women’s gym specifically set up so that Muslim would have a place to exercise.) Personally, I think the law tends to isolate and alienate believers into their own little religious cul-de-sac, which prevents them from participating in broader French culture, so that a law that was intended to reduce the influence of a religion (specifically, Catholicism) ends up making the influence of all religions, but particularly fundamentalism, that much more significant.

  125. 125.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Right, that they avoid it so they won’t be attacked, not that they are legally banned from wearing it. Meanwhile, Muslim women are legally banned from entering public buildings while wearing a veil and are being arrested for wearing long-sleeved bathing suits.

    Do you really not see a difference between We suggest you not wear that attire in public for your own safety and We are arresting you for wearing that attire in public?

  126. 126.

    hovercraft

    @hitchhiker:
    He doesn’t care about the label, he cares about the fact that it is now hurting him. He had no problem re-tweeting Neo-Nazis and white supremacits and playing footsie with the like of David Duke until it started hurting him in the polls.

  127. 127.

    PJ

    @Mnemosyne: The article that you linked to notes that yarmulkes and other religious garb are also banned in public schools. The big question for the French is whether laicity should extend to all public spaces, whether they are run by the government or not.

  128. 128.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @PJ: You are exactly correct. The thing in France is how big religion was and how hard and long the reaction against it will be and last. The history of France matters. Dreyfuss still matters to some extent. If one doesn’t know the history, one should be careful of commentary.

    @Mnemosyne: See above. I am not approving anything.

  129. 129.

    Mnemosyne

    @PJ:

    Exactly — the laws are being selectively enforced against French Muslims, and when they complain about that selective enforcement, they’re told that they won’t have a problem if they just obey the law, while the non-Muslims around them walk around wearing crucifixes and yarmulkes without being arrested.

  130. 130.

    nutella

    @Mnemosyne:

    Hmm, I looked up the answer to my own question and the 2004 hijab law applied to public schools, not to all public buildings as I had remembered. They did apply it to the male students, too. Per Wikipedia, “In 2012, the United Nations Human Rights Committee stated that the expulsion of a Sikh pupil from his school in 2008 because of his Sikh turban or keski was a violation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights signed by France.”

    A byproduct of the law, besides resentment from the people affected, is the increase in the number of private Islamic schools in France. Probably not what the lawmakers had hoped for.

  131. 131.

    Soylent Green

    @joel hanes: While I was skiing at Heavenly years ago a guy told me that someone carved “I got you babe” into the tree that Bono hit immediately after his accident. Then the Forest Service got wind of it and cut the tree down. Probably not a true story.

  133. 133.

    hovercraft

    @Uncle Cosmo:
    Once again sorry for your loss. It doesn’t feel like it right now but it will get easier. Hold your friends and family close to you and together you will get through this sad time.

  137. 137.

    Mnemosyne

    @PJ:

    Selective enforcement — French Muslims have complained for years that they’re the only ones who get punished for wearing religious garb, and that includes in the schools. Ignoring the substance of their complaint by repeating what the rule is doesn’t help anyone.

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I think the available evidence shows that anti-Muslim bigots are using the excuse of secularity to discriminate against Muslims. YMMV.

  138. 138.

    redshirt

    @efgoldman: Your comments in my regards have become quite regularly disparaging. I wonder why. Have I offended you somehow? I can’t imagine how. But maybe in some way I don’t know. If so, sorry.

  143. 143.

    hovercraft

    @sukabi:
    I actually think she is just making shit up to cover for the fact that he is losing. She actually said that the media is cherry picking the polls that show her ahead of him, the ones using live interviews. The pollster who was on said that the online polls are only marginally better for him, a couple of points or so. She can’t go on national TV and say yes we are really losing, even among groups that are traditionally GOP voters. So like Nixon she has secret polls that show Trump really winning among college educated whites. Online polls are the new unskewed polls. So all you educated white BJers come out and confess your secret love for Trump, Ms. Conway has outed you. //

  144. 144.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mnemosyne: It is, unfortunately not that simple. As @Omnes Omnibus: indicated the policy of enforced secularism is a result of really bad effects of the state directing its power against portions of the citizenry over religious doctrinal issues and different elements of the citizenry attacking other elements of the citizenry over religious doctrinal issues. As for the Jewish exceptions, this is problematic. France’s relationship with its Jewish citizenry is long, difficult, unfortunate, and at times genocidal. I think the bans are self defeating, but the French – including French Muslims, will have to work it out for themselves.

  146. 146.

    PJ

    @Mnemosyne: I’m not ignoring anyone’s complaint. My point was that the French take separation of church and state very seriously and extend it in ways that, in the US, would be seen as violations of freedom of speech. You are far from the first to note that, in effect, the laws, as written or applied, are discriminatory because what constitutes “secular” garb is essentially what is approved by the dominant culture, which has its roots in Christianity. As I noted, I think these laws are counter-productive and reduce assimilation or just basic participation in culture and politics, and lead to more anger and fundamentalism.

  149. 149.

    Anoniminous

    @hovercraft:

    At this point the GOP are trying to save their control over the Senate and House. The Senate will probably flip Dem. The House? Who knows. What is certain is if the CW becomes a Trump is definitely going to lose there will be a drop in GOP participation making it just that more likely for the House to flip.

    The statistical basis of the GOP’s extreme gerrymandering starts going wonky on them with this election. Have to think any 2012 R+5 district is in danger of flipping, not that it will flip — of course.

  152. 152.

    Mnemosyne

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Last year, I got into an argument with somebody here over Jewish vs Muslim hate crimes in France and tried to find some statistics. Turns out, there are no such statistics, because religious hate crimes don’t exist in French law, so nobody keeps track of them. Because France is officially secular, discrimination and bias on the basis of religion doesn’t officially exist. All anyone has are competing anecdotes.

  154. 154.

    Raven

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks, we went way back to high school and, when he just got in country and I was short, i weasled “in country travel orders” and flew up to Pleiku to hang wit him for a few. His first shirt finally said “who in the fuck is that” and invited me to di di! In other news, my pain is minimal but the Percocet wont let me sleep. Fair trade for now.

  157. 157.

    Mnemosyne

    @PJ:

    Official secularism is a great ideal, but frankly I think we’re seeing the limits of that ideal once you step outside of the competing versions of Christianity that caused those bloody wars in France. The official stance is making harder and harder for anyone from a minority religion to live their day-to-day lives without being harassed.

    Again: police are walking up to women on public beaches and demanding that they remove their headscarves or change into a different swimsuit. Some of them have refused, and been arrested. This is a problem.

  160. 160.

    Mnemosyne

    @Raven:

    Thirty of the 84 people who died in that attack were French Muslims, so let’s punish the rest of the French Muslims. That’ll help.

    (Edited to make better sense)

  161. 161.

    pseudonymous in nc

    @Mnemosyne:

    Because France is officially secular, discrimination and bias on the basis of religion doesn’t officially exist. All anyone has are competing anecdotes.

    Two strands here: one is that racial and religious demographic data was used by the Nazis during the occupation to identify French Jews and send them to their deaths, so they don’t record that data any more. The other is that laïcité in the wrong hands can be its own fundamentalism, and it’s going to be weaponised during the presidential election.

    ETA: Clericalism and anti-clericalism are deep strands in French history that are really alien to Americans.

  163. 163.

    Raven

    @Omnes Omnibus: yea, I’m fine. I moved out to the couch and my bride came out to see if I was ok. I don’t want to just iPad away next to her so this will do. I end up out here after my nightly pee half the time anyway. I have the whole week off anyway so it doesn’t matter if I sleep,right now. Thanks

  165. 165.

    Anoniminous

    @redshirt:

    It’s more that loosely attached voters won’t bestir themselves to vote if they think their top-line candidate has no chance, thus lowering the vote all the way down the ticket.

  168. 168.

    pseudonymous in nc

    The other aspect: it’s Nice. France is a unitary state with a singular civic identity, but the Mediterranean coastal cities have a messy and fucked-up relationship with the legacy of their colonial enterprises on the opposite side of the sea. This is not an apology for fucked-up policing.

  171. 171.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mnemosyne: I’m getting ready to rack out, but remind me to tell you at another time about the fun I had just trying to get the official crime data for each of the EU countries by year. And this was working with the reference librarian at an EU data repository.

  172. 172.

    Mnemosyne

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    I am forgetting what your gender is (sorry!), but I think there’s a reason this issue is pushing a button for women (like me) that the guys here aren’t really getting. Women’s clothing choices are up for constant debate and criticism in a way that men’s simply are not. I’m not just seeing Islamophobia in this story — I’m seeing some pretty nasty sexism, too. How many of the recent terrorist attacks in France were carried out by women in hijabs, or even headscarves? And yet French Muslim women are being disproportionately punished, because their religious garb is easy to spot and women get publicly harassed for their clothing all the fucking time as a matter of course.

    ETA: And, of course, the excuse for publicly harassing and shaming French Muslim women who wear religious garb is “feminism.” FFS.

  175. 175.

    Fair Economist

    @Anoniminous:

    The statistical basis of the GOP’s extreme gerrymandering starts going wonky on them with this election. Have to think any 2012 R+5 district is in danger of flipping, not that it will flip — of course.

    Actually, the gerrymandered districts are generally much worse than that. R+10 is more typical – for example, Texas has only one R district less than +10. The districts that will determine control are almost all non-gerrymandered for a variety of reasons. The GOP gerrymander will still be “working” in even the most favorable scenarios I’ve seen – they’ll have considerably more seatss than they “should”. It just gets overwhelmed in a landslide.

    If we win 55-45 in the Congressional vote (the point where R+5 will be flipping) we will have the House.

  177. 177.

    frosty

    @Raven:

    I end up out here after my nightly pee half the time anyway.

    With us it’s the snoring. One or the other moves to the spare bed every couple of nights. Not something I expected way back when.

  179. 179.

    joel hanes

    @redshirt:

    That’s pretty extreme skiing, right? Freestyle through a forest?

    Levels of the game.

    The upper parts of Heavenly are pretty parched and wind-blasted,
    so that the trees are gnarled and stunted and deformed
    If you can watch that video, look at the trees on the right side —
    the bowl trees have it worse, and many of them are just dead hulks.

    Many people know how to ski fairly dense trees in deep snow.
    They’re amazing to watch.
    I’m not one of them; most people aren’t one of them.
    I don’t know if Sonny Bono was one of them.

    Some people can do it on free-heel skis.
    I believe they are a actually a different species, descended from Odin.
    Certainly no mortal has the required quad strength.

    There are some amazing few who jump low cliffs at speed, ski steep narrow rocky cols, hike to ski off-piste in almost-vertical terrain.
    That’s what I think of as “extreme” skiing.
    Sonny Bono was not one of those.

  180. 180.

    Raven

    @frosty: I hear ya. What really bums her is that the dogs are starting to jump out of bed too. All that time and money building an addition so we could get a king and, boom, up in smoke. (Actually Bodhi comes out, runs his nose on my hand, I scratch his ears and the he turns his butt to get the treatment then back to bed)!

  181. 181.

    Eric U.

    I love skiing in deep powder in trees. I’m not that great of a skiier, can’t do moguls, for example. No cliffs or other jumps either. Steering around trees in powder, no problem. I have done it at night too, that’s a hoot. I didn’t realize that’s what Bono was doing when he hit that tree. I guess there are places where you can pick up speed, and a lot of the better powder skiiers probably think I ski too slow. Maybe the powder wasn’t that good that day.

  182. 182.

    Denali

    @Mnem,

    Is it really the right time to argue with someone who is recovering from surgery and on pain meds?

  183. 183.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Mnemosyne: One of the people I follow on social media is a woman in Austria who seems very smart and progressive about everything by US standards, except that she is terrified of Muslim immigrants. She’s been cheering all of this hijab-banning stuff. Said after the Bataclan attack that she hoped her lefty friends would now understand that extreme-right nativist parties have a point. Posts every so often about how she doesn’t feel a humanitarian crisis in another country obligates her to do thing one about refugees.

    From her perspective, this is being progressive: she sees Islam primarily as a reactionary anti-feminist force that needs to be driven out or underground before it annihilates her culture, and thinks the laws need to reinforce local traditions of secular progressivism.

    I don’t feel qualified to lecture her about what her own country should do: Europe in general has taken so many more refugees from the Syria crisis than the United States, which is probably more responsible for the situation than they are. I know there have been genuine incidents of religious/cultural friction among the refugees in Germany (probably inevitable since there are so many).

    And different countries have different notions of the line between religion and government, and how the state should regulate personal expression. I remember a conversation I had with another Austrian years ago in which he said he felt the First Amendment was suicidally insane, because it prevented us from criminally prosecuting Nazis just for being Nazis. (We may be paying for that now.)

    But it can still be unnerving to read.

  184. 184.

    PST

    @Anoniminous:

    And Tush Limpblah was railing about “lesbian farmers” the other day.

    Yeah, I tried growing lesbians for a couple of years on my farm in Montana, but there was no market for them then. I switched over to raising dental floss.

  187. 187.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant): I’d guess you are the Juicer who understands most directly & immediately what we’re facing…except more so. (Did I ever post my condolences to you? Probably not though I meant to many times. Adult ADHD is a PITA. Accept them in deep retrospective, Ben.)

    We will get through this somehow; Skyler leaves behind a brother, sister, brother-in-law & niece who we’ll rally ’round (not to mention dad, mom, & most devastatingly, fiancee, whose whole world has been blown to atoms but who will always be family). But there will always be a hole in our hearts.

    Thanks for all for the kind words.

Comments are closed.