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You are here: Home / Food & Recipes / Food / Shitty politics. Shitty pizza. Papa John’s.

Shitty politics. Shitty pizza. Papa John’s.

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Wingnut pizza mogul Papa John Schnatter is hanging up the pizza peel:

Schnatter is the cheap prick who previously caught flak for lamenting the additional $0.14-per-pie cost of insuring his employees after the ACA passed.

He was a Trump donor and took up Trump’s line about the NFL players’ BLM protests, claiming it cost his chain of ketchup-encrusted hardtack purveyors $70 million.

White supremacists publicly made Papa John’s their official pizza chain, which made decent folks give it the side-eye. That actually did hurt business.

So, Schnatter will remain chairman and continue to be obscenely wealthy. I’m sure Trump’s tax scam will shower him with extra wealth.

But it turns out that if the public face of your company is a Trumpster, that’s bad for business. Good.

Reader Interactions

173Comments

  1. 1.

    hellslittlestangel

    They need to hire a good PR firm to reassure the public that, despite this change to management, the pizza will continue to be tasteless cardboard crap.

  2. 2.

    TenguPhule

    Now if this would only lead them to follow Dominos and actually improve the quality of their ingredients.

  4. 4.

    TenguPhule

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’ve had both, and Little Caesar’s pizza is better than Papa John’s.

    Microwave Pizza is better then Papa Johns. Its not exactly a high bar to cross.

  5. 5.

    TenguPhule

    Several people who attended the meeting, granted anonymity to describe what was expected to be a private exchange, said Rep. Luis Gutiérrez (D-Ill.) — arguably the most outspoken Democrat on immigration matters — unloaded on Schumer, accusing him and Democratic senators of not caring about the fate of dreamers and “throwing them under the bus” in the ongoing spending debate with Republicans, participants said.

    In response, Schumer raised his voice, telling Gutiérrez not to insult fellow Democrats.

    Gutiérrez shot back, telling Schumer: “Don’t raise your voice.”

    In a signal of growing frustrations, 29 Senate Democrats voted to oppose the stopgap. Only seven opposed the previous stopgap passed Dec. 7.

    Stupid Schumer is going to get a leadership challenge pretty soon.

    Helping Republicans is a surefire way to piss off your Democratic base these days.

  6. 6.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    Never had their pizza, won’t be tempted to in the future. I like Costco’s.

    ETA: Now, I have to figure out the best way to get to La Crescenta to get Christmas cards for madame and the kid and take pics of the lights in Montrose.

  7. 7.

    Tim C.

    Fun story. Back in 2001 I got hired to be secret taste tester for Papa John’s. I had to order delivery a few times and then get take out from a store a few times.

    It was ass pie. I faked my reviews after eating two slices of the first order. I did mention it was much worse than what you could get a Papa Murphy’s a local take and bake chain.

  8. 8.

    Leto

    Speaking of shitty politics, John Kelly’s hand picked successor is continuing right where he left off: To curb illegal border crossings, Trump administration weighs new measures targeting families

    The Trump administration is considering measures to halt a surge of Central American families and unaccompanied minors coming across the Mexican border, including a proposal to separate parents from their children, according to officials with knowledge of the plans.

    Proposal: use the grease from Papa John’s pizza to grease the guilliotine.

  9. 9.

    Patricia Kayden

    I’m laughing hysterically at Betty’s description of Papa John’s pizza but must confess that I don’t find it to be that bad. But after Schnatter started running his anti-ACA mouth, I left it alone. Good to see he’s standing down.

  10. 10.

    TenguPhule

    @Leto:

    Proposal: use the grease from Papa John’s pizza to grease the guilliotine.

    Why do you hate our guillotines so much?

  12. 12.

    TenguPhule

    @Leto:

    use data collected by the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) to target parents for deportation after they attempt to regain custody of their kids from government shelters .

    You missed the most inhumane bit.

  13. 13.

    West of the Rockies (been a while)

    It was an ugly face for the corporation anyway. Good bloody riddance.

    OT–anyone heard anything about Kushner trying to hire a crisis management PR firm? Is he expecting to require a crisis to be managed soon? (I hope, I hope, I hope!)

  15. 15.

    Roger Moore

    What is the point of delivery pizza anyway? Pizza is always best straight out of the oven, and its quality declines rapidly. By the time they’ve had a chance to deliver it to your home, it’s way past its prime.

  16. 16.

    Caring and sensitive

    Every time I see this asshole on TV (and I watch a lot of football, so I see him a lot), I get the vibe that some day it will come out that he’s a kiddie diddler

  23. 23.

    Gravenstone

    Allegedly. Jerry Jones put Schnatter up to the NFL protests whinge. I wonder if either of them think they got their money’s worth?

  25. 25.

    Corner Stone

    This dude has been showing his dick to minors. His prized spokesperson Peyton showed him the way to get away with it.

  28. 28.

    Mary G

    @Leto: My housemate from Guatemala who has been here for ten years on a green card, applied for a renewal in March. April 13 he went for the fingerprints, etc., and they gave him an extension until December. That seemed fine, since they estimated that it would take six months. After six months passed, he filed an online inquiry into the status. They emailed that it takes as long as it takes, so fuck off (OK, I may have changed the exact wording a bit there, but it was clear what they meant.) He went in person this week since his extension is expiring, and they told him it’s now taking a year to process these and they can’t give him another extension, but he should bring in his passport and they’ll mark it there. I’m worried they will just throw him on a plane when he shows up.

    He’s got a business and a job and a wife and a stepson, both US citizens, living here and they could just ship him off. It’s cruel.

  32. 32.

    Mnemosyne

    @Mary G:

    It really pisses me off that these assholes are so fucking lazy that they’d rather deport honest people who have green cards than to try and find the (few) people who actually are cheating the system. Honest people will get hurt because they played by the rules and the cheaters will only prosper more.

    ETA: Also, what SC said.

  36. 36.

    Mike J

    @Roger Moore: Ovens are for chumps, unless yours is wood fired and brick. Grills are the way to make proper pizza.

    But if I’m not up to cooking or driving, I’ve had them delivered. Much like sex, even when mediocre, pizza is pretty damned good. Of the major chains, I go with Garlic Jim’s.

  38. 38.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Mnemosyne: AFAIK, I don’t think there has been a single case of a GC holder being deported. But USCIS has made routine business slow as molasses by adding a ton of bureaucratic hurdles w/o a requisite increase in personnel.

  39. 39.

    Leto

    @Mary G: Has he been working with a lawyer? Man… I honestly hope this turns out ok and I’m so sorry your friend, and his family, are having to go through this.

  47. 47.

    Leto

    @Mike J: There’s an Italian family owned/run place right by my work; they’ve only been in America for three years. Their woodfired clay oven is just like you’d find in any pizza joint in Italy. It’s the best pizza I’ve had since my family and I lived in Italy a few years ago. I can’t go all the time, but when I do they treat me like family and I love them to death. Any time the conversation turns to local food, I always, ALWAYS talk their place up. A few of my co-workers who have been are converts. A good Italian pie is what this athiest imagines heaven to be.

  50. 50.

    Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)

    @Mike J: I loathe brick oven crust, or at least what they call brick oven crust in the supermarket.

    @Corner Stone: I find cold/rewarmed Little Caesar’s more mediocre than inedible, although having grown up with it I may be biased. (Another factor: My threshold for “completely inedible” is: Hawaiian, glue-for-cheese gas station pizza, and Tombstone-esque cardboard).

    Oh, and dectuple-fuck White Castle’s at the dick-sucking factory with the unicorn Jill Stein wishes she could have rode in on. (And where’d you hear Schattler exposed himself).

  55. 55.

    Frankensteinbeck

    The first time I heard the N-word used as a deliberate ethnic slur was when I worked for Papa Johns. I was informed by my manager that the highly competent black assistant manager would never get his own store because the higher levels of corporate management disapproved of his race. They extra disapproved that he was sleeping with a white girl. Schnatter has always been a racist shit.

  57. 57.

    Yarrow

    I was at a work day for an organization I’m involved with. We had the local high school kids helping. The person in charge told our organization to order Papa John’s pizza so that’s what we did. I had part of a piece because I was kind of hungry and it was just gross. The sauce was so sweet. I hadn’t had any in years and was surprised at how awful it was. I don’t remember it being that bad. Did they make it worse somewhere along the way?

  62. 62.

    Raoul

    Shitty politics. Shitty pizza. Shitty dye job. Papa John.

    Dude is worth $800M, he can’t afford a stylist? He looks like his wife goes to Meijer, buys a box of Miss Clairol Soft Black and then he does it himself in the bathroom.

    Yes I’m petty. He looks like crap. But hey, so does the Ferret-topped shitbibbon.

  63. 63.

    Raoul

    @Yarrow: Don’t know if I’ve ever eaten a Papa John’s. I hope not, and I know I haven’t in recent years.

    Generally, if you’re eating a tomato-based sauce and it tastes noticeably sweetened, I always suspect they are using shit quality, under ripe tomatoes and to cover the bitterness, add corn syrup.

    Gross. Also, don’t eat at Buca di Beppo, IMO. No idea what the politics is, but the tablespoons and tablespoons of sugar in our last and final meal there? Ugh. I’m embarrassed that the original that started the chain is walking distance from my home. It was good — 22 years ago.

  64. 64.

    Darrin Ziliak (formerly glocksman)

    Of the major national pizza chains here in Evansville, Papa John’s rates better than Pizza Hut & Little Caesar’s, but worse than Domino’s.

    That said, the LC’s locally donate a ton of leftover “Hot & Ready” pizzas and other food to local homeless shelters.

    AFAIK, PJ’s don’t donate anything to charity.

  67. 67.

    Frankensteinbeck

    @Yarrow:
    Schnatter’s behavior and how he ran the company have changed drastically over the years. He went from ‘I will do whatever it takes to deliver the highest quality product because that’s where success lies’ to ‘I am rich because I am a Galtian genius.’ Among many other things, he started out paying his employees substantially above competitors’ rates so encourage retention and skill at pizza preparation (which does take skill, trust me), and steadily dropped how much he paid them until now he screams that health insurance might make a pizza cost 15 cents more. Yes, the ingredients have changed as well.

  70. 70.

    mai naem mobile

    I haven’t had Papa Johns pizza in years but I remember it being pretty bad. Domino’s has come a long way in the past 5-7 years. I used to like Pizza Hut years ago when they didn’t have delivery. I think Pizza Huts slide to bad pizza started with delivery. I think they cut corners to cover the delivery and used inferior ingredients. QT and Costco make okay economical pizzas.

  71. 71.

    raptusregaliter

    For what it’s worth: Schnatter will continue to be chairman of the board and will still be the face of the franchise–including commercials–which will make it that much sweeter when his company continues to lose market share. Bottom line: Papa John’s makes crap pizzas, millenials avoid it, Domino’s is surging because they’ve made it so easy to order across multiple platforms, and now other fast food chains are getting into the delivery business. I’m guessing in 10 years Schnatter will end up just like Trump: a rich prick who spends his days watching Fox News and yelling at the tv. And the funniest parallel is that Schnatter brought it all on himself through his own stupidity.

  73. 73.

    Schlemazel

    @Leto:
    The daughter worked at a high end joint in CO. The owners wife fell in love with Italian pies & bought a wood fired oven there for their place. Daughter ran the kitchen and fought with the owners wife because she would only allow 4 pizzas to be made. You could get a margarete, a plain cheese, a mushroom or an artichoke pizza, nothing else, no substitutions. The oven made great pies but for some reason they were not big sellers.

  74. 74.

    Jeffro

    The tweeters commenting about the baby girl who was just born…after having been a frozen embryo for 24 years(!)…they’re killing me

    “I hope they named her Elsa”
    “She’s too old for Roy Moore”

    LOL

  75. 75.

    J R in WV

    We have several local pizza places here, some with brick over/wood fire ovens and some with high-tech high heat ovens without the chimney. Inventive Italian style, but with more creative ingredients, depending upon your order, of course.

    I get takeout to bring home – 35 minute drive – and reheat them in a big old cast iron skillet, to keep the crust crisp. Lid to hold the heat in and melt the cheese. Almost as good as in the restaurant. Try it.

    Also, the pizza we had in Tuscany was OK, but nothing better than the local pizzarias around here. Way better than most chains! but not that much better than walk in local pizza.

  76. 76.

    Schlemazel

    @Corner Stone:
    Growing up there was an Italian family across the street. They invited us for pizza as a thank-you for some stuff we had done for them. I was really excited to have REAL pizza. This was the 50s so pizza was still somewhat ‘exotic’ to many people. The old world recipe was bread crust about 3 inches think with some marinara smeared on it and anchovies. Pizza in Italy varies from location to location but that pie would not be a hit anywhere in the US.

  77. 77.

    Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD)

    Where does Pizza Hut sit in the ranking of the Big Four as currently operated? Haven’t had it in five years, but I seem to recall it being a bit better than Little Caesar’s. (My tentative ranking is: Domino’s (post-2010ish) > Pizza Hut > Little Caesar’s >>> Papa John’s, the only chain I will never seek out).

  78. 78.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I was out doing holiday stuff most of the day, so sorry if this has been hashed out in an old thread, but… Wow

    Kaitlan Collins‏Verified account @ kaitlancollins
    Bannon tells Vanity Fair he couldn’t believe Ivanka Trump made the “special place in hell” comment about Roy Moore. “What about the allegations about her dad and that 13-year-old? Ivanka was a fount of bad advice during the campaign.”

  79. 79.

    Leto

    @raven: It’s such a good series and I can’t wait for it to come back on.

    @Schlemazel: sounds like a good base set, but your daughter is right and they should’ve expanded. Maybe not BBQ chicken pizza, or cheeseburger, but a good Quattro formaggi would’ve been good or something more local to the CO area.

  81. 81.

    Schlemazel

    @Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
    Never thought any of those were worth eating. Back in the day of 2 for 1 we used to get Little Caesars because the kids loved hawaiian style. I introduced them to good pizza and they grew out of ham & pineapple.

    There is a very good place that delivers locally if I want delivery (I think we did it once), if I want commercial there is a Papa Murphy’s a mile away & their take and back is better than the other 4.

  83. 83.

    Leto

    @Schlemazel: In the next town over there was a place that had focaccia crust pizza. A number of my Italian friends gave it the side eye, but it was a pretty popular place and it was really good.

    You’re correct that it varies by location. We found that basically in touristy areas, the food overall was shit. Once you left those areas, quality improved quite a bit.

  86. 86.

    Schlemazel

    @Leto:
    I was pretty convinced the guy was running the place as a money laundering operation because there was no way they were making a profit. It was a very cute place with a lot going for it but it was run like a madhouse.

    Apparently those were the 4 she had in Italy and she could not be convinced anything else would be authentic. I give them credit that they bought expensive ingredients but people were always coming in asking for sausage or pepperoni etc and didn’t buy when they were told no.

  87. 87.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    @raven: yes QT the gas station. I am not saying it’s some artisanal pizza but it’s okay for a ten dollar several topping large pizza.

  88. 88.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): @Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD): I used to order Domino’s when I was really hungry and too lazy to do anything else– “When frozen isn’t worth the effort!” “McDonald’s too far away? Call 1-800- AVE MARIA” My house now, on a cul-de-sac off a dead end road, is the bane of delivery drivers even though it’s only a left and three rights off a main road, so I haven’t had anything delivered in years. I’ve seen their ads saying they improved things a lot a few years back but haven’t tried.

  90. 90.

    Schlemazel

    @Butthurt Jordan Trombone (fka XTPD):
    I like both CHicago and NYC style if they are done well. Each is good in their own way, I don’t get people having a fit about either
    @Leto:
    I had a thing in Italy that was very much bread with sauce and cheese. Generally I don’t like bread as crust but that was OK. Mostly though they made what around here is considered ‘traditional’ it is thicker but has a very crispy bottom so you get a nice chew and the cris crunch.

  91. 91.

    Gvg

    I had pizza in Italy as a child and was not impressed. I came away with the impression American’s had mutated it into something else and our way was better. This was long before fast food pizza or frozen grocery store pizza. In my 20’s I worked for a chain delivering, Dino’s and learned to make really good pizza. The cooks showed me. It’s not hard or expensive and I hate cooking. I microwave most meals and find cooking boring but I hate all the chain’s and frozen lines and even the local resteraunts my friends and family like are just tolerable. I make my own when I am in the mood. Buy a pizza mix (Martha white ) add water, prego spaghetti sauce works for me, lots of shredded cheese and toppings, cook 12-20 minutes. 2 warnings, use skim cheese not whole because too much fat makes pizza greasy. Skim is better for this. Too many fresh vegetable toppings produce too much water when cooked and a soggy pizza. Especially go easy on green peppers, they have a lot of water. To dress up, put tomato slices on top, but that’s just for looks.

  94. 94.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    @schrodingers_cat: In my hometown, the Papa John’s was closed down, Pizza Hut, Domino’s and Little Ceasar’s survive though I am a Papa Murphy’s, Round Table or Mod’s guy myself.

  95. 95.

    Cookie Monster

    @Mary G: I’m an immigrant (now a citizen) and I remember from doing my own green card work (filling forms, jumping through various hoops — couldn’t afford a lawyer) that various online sources always stated that the green card expiration is of the _card_, not the permanent resident status (assuming this isn’t a conditional GC). That said, we’re pretty far from normal, and the world according to Trump is a terrifying place, so I can understand the concern. Standard disclaimers apply, I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV/blogs/etc.

  97. 97.

    Mnemosyne

    @Schlemazel:

    As other people have said, pizza is an American invention that was exported back to the old country, so it’s like she had General Tso’s Chicken in China and decided that was the only “authentic” recipe.

    IIRC, the pizza in Naples is closest to what Americans think of as pizza.

  98. 98.

    Gvg

    Let me add that too sweet a sauce maybe sugar added to disguise sauce going bad. The cooks I knew back when warned me about the local Pizza Hut. That was one town 30 years ago and it all changes around. I remember when PJ was the new kid around and was better than the others. Still prefer my own but every few years have some of the franchise type at a party and quality changes around.

  99. 99.

    maeve

    I was working on Long Island one summer in 1977 (I’m from the midwest) – it was a college summer program at a national lab and we stayed in former WW1 army barracks (it was the officer’s barracks I believe) at Brookhaven National Lab (formerly Camp Upton in WW1)/.

    So on weekends we went to NYC – forget all which we did but I saw Reggie Jackson hit a home run once and we almost caught the ball — saw Star Wars in its original theatrical release – went to see fire works at battery park on July 4th but it was 1977 and it wasn’t in the same location as 1976 so that wasn’t the place to be.

    But of all the memories – I still remember going to a local place for lunch w/ my friends and getting a slice of plain cheese pizza (because we were broke) and its still once of the best pizzas I’ve ever had.

  100. 100.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    There is a pizza place in Phoenix called Pizza Bianco which gets rave reviews not just locally but nationally. They’ve gotten national awards for best pizza in the country . I’ve been there once. Honestly for me it was above average pizza. I didn’t get ‘it.’ The crust was like a lahvosh kind of crust. I liked the sauce. Toppings were limited and they had a bunch of basil leaves on the pizza. I don’t mean 3 or 4 leaves on a medium size pizza. More like 10-12 leaves. For me it was very underseasoned and,yes, I know you’re supposed to taste all the different flavors not just salt. I happen to like a couple of family owned places in Phoenix which make what I called old fashioned pizza that you used to see everywhere. Thinnish(not cardboard)crust with lots of spicy but not sweet sauce and lots of cheese.

  101. 101.

    frosty

    @tobie:

    I’ve got popcorn in reserve.

    Me too, I bought some Cub Scout popcorn a year ago from my cubicle mate’s son and I’ve got just enough left for watching the news.

  103. 103.

    Gravenstone

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: When I was in college during the mid-80s, my roommate and I ate so much Domino’s pizza (largely at his behest). He used to joke he could call and just say, ‘hello Domino’s? Feed me!’, and they’d know who and what the order should be. Sadly, that’s probably close to the truth.

  104. 104.

    efgoldman

    When we first moved here, Papa John’s and pre-reformation Domino’s were the only places that delivered. Now some of the local places started, too, and have our business now.

    I never heard of PJ’s until my daughter went to college. PJ was the only place that would deliver to the dorm as late as 230am.

  105. 105.

    Leto

    @Schlemazel: Mafioso!!! (Joke I had with my bike shop guy and his mozzerella dealer friend) Yeah, if all she wanted to offer were those 4 and not anything else… /shrug

    I’ve come to learn, that just like everything else, pizza is a subjective matter. People are going to have their preferences and that’s fine. There’s enough joints around to suite just about everyone’s taste.

  106. 106.

    gbbalto

    Any tomato sauce with added sugar is based on inferior tomatoes! Use only S. Marzano (preferably DOC) and you never need sugar. More $ but your taste buds will thank you.
    /as if I am great chef but I know what I like
    gb + several

    ETA: I have heard that they are so great because of volcanic soil

  107. 107.

    Mnemosyne

    Also, a pizza public service announcement:

    Thick crust and deep dish pizza are two different things. Deep dish pizza actually has a thin crust because it is pressed against the sides of the pizza pan.

  108. 108.

    tobie

    @Schlemazel: Careful what you wish for! I have a friend who wanted Trump to run in 2015 for the entertainment value and now we’re stuck with the would-be Mussolini.

  112. 112.

    Leto

    @Mnemosyne: Not really sure why people keep peddling the “pizza is an American invention” line:

    The term pizza was first recorded in the 10th century, in a Latin manuscript from Gaeta in Southern Lazio on the border with Campania.[1] Modern pizza was invented in Naples, and the dish and its variants have since become popular and common in many areas of the world.[2] In 2009, upon Italy’s request, Neapolitan pizza was registered with the European Union as a Traditional Speciality Guaranteed dish.[3][4] Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana (True Neapolitan Pizza Association), a non-profit organization founded in 1984 with headquarters in Naples, aims to “promote and protect… the true Neapolitan pizza”.[5]

    Pizza

    Pizza was brought to the United States with Italian immigrants in the late nineteenth century,[22] and first appeared in areas where Italian immigrants concentrated. The country’s first pizzeria, Lombardi’s, opened in 1905.[23] Following World War II, veterans returning from the Italian Campaign after being introduced to Italy’s native cuisine proved a ready market for pizza in particular.[24] Since then pizza consumption has exploded in the U.S.

    History of Pizza

    Quit peddling false information.

  113. 113.

    Leto

    @gbbalto: The majority of San Marzano tomatoes imported into the US are fake:

    What seems to be the issue with San Marzano tomatoes is widespread fraud. They command a higher price than regular canned tomatoes, and as with any other premium brand, counterfeits follow. Unlike faux Chanel bags, though, you can buy San Marzanos in legit stores, which is why the sheer number of knockoffs is jaw-dropping. In 2011, Edoardo Ruggiero, the president of Consorzio San Marzano, told the small Italian importing company Gustiamo that at maximum 5 percent of tomatoes sold in the U.S. as San Marzanos are real San Marzanos. So according to the guy who oversees the certification of those tomatoes, at least 95 percent of the so-called San Marzanos in the U.S. are fakes.

    …..

    The reason why there are so few true San Marzano brands is that the DOP-designated area for San Marzanos, the Agro Sarnese-Nocerino between Naples and Salerno, encompasses a relatively limited number of small plots. It’s not just the San Marzano tomato fakes and the much-publicized olive oil fraud, either. Italy is the biggest importer of Chinese tomato paste, and you can guess where that is going. “And Castelvetrano is a tiny town in Sicily—there’s no way all those olives are coming from there,” adds Aquino Roitmayr. “I would not buy anything in a grocery store that says “Italian” on it.”

    The Fake Rolex of Canned Foods

  114. 114.

    Another Scott

    @Leto: Ahem:

    HM: So what was pizza like in the days when you started out?

    SP: Well, I don’t know everybody says Italian pizza. I’ve never seen anything like this in Italy when I stopped back in 1954. We’re coming over by boat and the boat stopped in Naples and there was a little wagon selling lots of stuff with all the passengers. And one said pizza on it. I went to try one it’s one and the guy slices up a big bun, put some sauce in it some, some spaghetti in and that’s all the pizza was then.

    HM: You had a spaghetti sandwich?

    SP: Yeah that’s what it is. This whole thing an American invention you know what I mean. They did it first in Boston and the places around. And Detroit in those days big, a lot of people live there. And guys from Windsor pick up the thing and they started making it there. We visit Windsor and then we see what is going on there. We had a restaurant in Chatham, which is not too far from Windsor. We didn’t know what the hell to do with it. We were putting bacon, peperoni and mushrooms. That was the standard things you put on pizza.

    ;-)

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  115. 115.

    Mnemosyne

    @Leto:

    Because the kind of pizza we make in the US is a US adaptation. It’s about as Italian as corned beef and cabbage is Irish. They make a similar dish in Ireland, but it’s not exactly the same.

    If they’re dating pizza back to the 10th century, 500 years before tomatoes arrived in Europe, they’re stretching their definition of “pizza” quite a bit.

    Foods get passed back and forth between cultures and countries, imported and exported. It’s okay. Food is very flexible.

  116. 116.

    Mnemosyne

    @Another Scott:

    I would pull out my Italian card, but my family’s from Lombardia, so we’re practically Swiss. Besides, I’m only about a quarter Italian since my Italian grandfather married a German-Irish woman and my mom’s side is German and English.

  117. 117.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    @Mnemosyne: Theres several Rosatis. I haven’t been there in a long time because the last couple of times I went to one, the places didn’t look clean. We used to go to Nellos but they closed the one near us. There pizza was Chicago style.

  118. 118.

    gbbalto

    @Leto: Uh Oh. Well, even the fake ones are better than yore standard “Italian” tomatoes. thanks – I will need to research further.

  119. 119.

    magurakurin

    @Corner Stone:

    Good pizza was invented in the USA. Sorry Italian snobs.

    that’s probably the dumbest thing you’ve ever said. I love New York/Philly pizza, but pizza in Napoli is simply amazing. There’s nothing snobby about it.

  120. 120.

    Shalimar

    Papa Johns is my least favorite of the chains, it is far below the quality of any good local place, and I haven’t ordered one since the ACA stupidity, but it is still pizza. It isn’t bad. I will eat it if someone else pays for it. I don’t see any reason to join in the insult creativity contest, though I do love those normally.

  121. 121.

    magurakurin

    @Mnemosyne:

    As other people have said, pizza is an American invention that was exported back to the old country,

    this is so amazingly wrong…wow.

  122. 122.

    Mnemosyne

    @magurakurin:

    Americans love pizza in Naples because it’s the closest to what we think of as “pizza.” In other parts of the country, it’s barely recognizable, as other people have said.

    Ironically, what I think has happened is that pizza has been traded back and forth multiple times, Naples to the US to Naples, with each side improving something as it gets swapped, so both places get to claim they “invented” it.

    And if raven or anyone else getting ready to visit Pasadena is around, Settebello on Colorado and El Molino is the place to go. They’re even Naples-certified.

  123. 123.

    Another Scott

    @magurakurin: The worst pizza I’ve ever had was in Erice, Sicily. Wood fired, burnt, horrible, just nasty.

    I don’t recall the pizza in Rome being all that great compared to, say, Cici’s (pretty bad), either.

    YMMV.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  124. 124.

    Mnemosyne

    Speaking of cultural crossover, most of the non-chain pizza places in this area also offer khachapuri, which is an Eastern European (Georgian) bread that’s kind of like an open-faced calzone with an egg on top. I haven’t gotten brave enough to try it, but it looks tasty.

  127. 127.

    magurakurin

    @Mnemosyne:

    People love pizza they in Napoli because in a decent shop it is made with wonderfully fresh ingredients that you simply aren’t going to get anywhere else. The cheese is made fresh every morning from the farms just to the south of the city and likewise for the tomatoes. And I’ve had pizza in the north as well. Yes, it’s different, but it is still amazing and delicious for all the same reasons. Good ingredients make good food. Italians on the whole use fresher and better ingredients.

  129. 129.

    guachi

    Pizza I had in Florence, Italy was universally outstanding. I don’t know how Italian it was or if they were catering to tourists. But it was really good.

  130. 130.

    Mnemosyne

    @magurakurin:

    Well, that’s a different topic of discussion. ? I’m lucky to live in CA, because we grow all kinds of different produce year-round, plus we produce a lot of dairy, so restaurants around here that want to do that “farm to table” thing find it easy to do so. Even our cafeteria at work brags about all of the local foods they use (though it doesn’t seem to make their cooking much better …)

  132. 132.

    magurakurin

    @Another Scott: geesh, guys, I mean, whatever. The “I had a bad meal in Italy so, it’s all just meh” tales are sad. If you don’t have any interest in seeking out the enjoyments of pizza in Napoli, good for you. I’ve done it on several occasions. It is a wonderful memory and experience, I’m glad to have had.
    See Naples, and die. or not, your loss, not mine.

  135. 135.

    Leto

    @Mnemosyne: So the fact that pizza was a documented term in the 10th Century… yes, it’s totally them stretching the definition. Yup. Them.

    Also when was this cross cultural food exhange happening when Naples made the first “modern” style pizza in the late 18th century?

    Italy unified in 1861, and King Umberto I and Queen Margherita visited Naples in 1889. Legend has it that the traveling pair became bored with their steady diet of French haute cuisine and asked for an assortment of pizzas from the city’s Pizzeria Brandi, the successor to Da Pietro pizzeria, founded in 1760.

    …..

    And yet, until the 1940s, pizza would remain little known in Italy beyond Naples’ borders.

    An ocean away, though, immigrants to the United States from Naples were replicating their trusty, crusty pizzas in New York and other American cities, including Trenton, New Haven, Boston, Chicago and St. Louis. The Neapolitans were coming for factory jobs, as did millions of Europeans in the late 19th and early 20th centuries; they weren’t seeking to make a culinary statement. But relatively quickly, the flavors and aromas of pizza began to intrigue non-Neapolitans and non-Italians.

    Carol Helstosky, author of “Pizza: A Global History” and associate professor of history at the University of Denver.

    You’re totally sure that “the kind of pizza we make in the US is a US adaptation.“?

    @Another Scott: You know there’s a [link] button beside that [quote] button, right? Where is that even from?

  136. 136.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Roger Moore:

    What is the point of delivery pizza anyway? Pizza is always best straight out of the oven, and its quality declines rapidly. By the time they’ve had a chance to deliver it to your home, it’s way past its prime.

    1. Too young to drive to pizzeria
    2. Too drunk to drive to pizzeria
    3. Too high to drive to pizzeria
    4. Too lazy to drive to pizzeria
    5. Too many kids to drive to pizzeria

  137. 137.

    Mnemosyne

    @Leto:

    Yes. I’m sure. From your article:

    And yet, until the 1940s, pizza would remain little known in Italy beyond Naples’ borders.

    As I said — brought to the US, reinvented, and imported back to Italy, where they continued to tinker with and improve it, and then send it back to the US for more tinkering and improvement.

  138. 138.

    Another Scott

    @magurakurin: I’ve never been to Naples, so I can’t say.

    The point is, though, that we have evidence in this thread that in the 1950s “pizza” in Naples was a spaghetti sandwich, and that a pizza in the 1990s in Sicily was horrible, etc., so that Italy (or Naples) having some unique claim on what we now call pizza, or having uniquely excellent pizza, is a bit tenuous of a claim.

    But, hey, it beats arguing about who’s worse – HRC or BS or JS or TMcA – I guess.

    ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  140. 140.

    Tehanu

    We had peanut butter pizza once, in a little place in Banning or maybe Cabazon, out on Interstate 10. It was surprisingly good. At the office, whenever they have a free meal day, it’s almost always Costco pizza which, if you get the multiple topping, is, um, edible … and I never turn down a free meal.

  142. 142.

    Leto

    @Mnemosyne:

    In other parts of the country, it’s barely recognizable, as other people have said.

    Other parts of what country? I lived there for years (Brescia), I traveled all throughout. While the quality varied, the general style (flat bread pizza) was the same.

    As fascinating as this revisionist history is, I need to be up in 4 1/2 hours. Night!

  143. 143.

    Leto

    @Mnemosyne: Brought to the US by Napoliani’s. By the people who invented it… not sure how this is lost on you, or the fact you ignored everything else, but yeah. Night!

    Edit: @Another Scott: You didn’t provide any evidence. There’s a link button. Please use it.

  144. 144.

    Mnemosyne

    @Leto:

    Or, to put it a different way, there are two completely different kinds of cookies that are both called “macaroons”: stacks of coconut, or meringue filled with fruit jelly. Which one is the “real” “authentic” macaroon?

    They’ve recently started spelling the second kind of cookie with only one “o” to try and reduce confusion, but look at any American cookbook older than 10 years ago and the names of the two cookies will still be spelled identically.

  147. 147.

    Corner Stone

    @Leto: Bullshit! I demand you back up your theory with a multi paragraph defense of what you have posted here. I await your detailed response this evening, thanks.

  148. 148.

    Mnemosyne

    @Leto:

    By the people who invented it… not sure how this is lost on you, or the fact you ignored everything else, but yeah.

    I didn’t say that pizza as a concept was invented in the US. I said that what we call pizza in the US was invented in the US.

    As with all immigrant foods, immigrants from Naples brought pizza with them and then re-invented it as an American food. I honestly don’t understand why this concept — which is backed up by the article you quoted — is enraging you.

  149. 149.

    Another Scott

    @Leto: Heh.

    Click on the “Ahem” link and it will take you to an earlier post here on Balloon-Juice which has a link to where the quote came from.

    HTH!! ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  150. 150.

    Another Scott

    @Leto: Um, I provided a link with my quote. I don’t need no stinkin’ badges buttons to make a link here, thank you very much.

    Enjoy your rest. You seem to need it. ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  151. 151.

    Burritoboy

    Ok, people are making crazy statements here. First off, there’s no doubt that pizza was invented as street food in Naples. Second, yes, Italian immigrants (primarily from Naples) in America started doing their own modifications on the basic idea, and so made it into something else. But the original was always a street food of Naples. Third, pizza is a Neapolitan thing. Each city (and many villages) in Italy has their own distinct culinary style, and these can be extremely different, to the point that a very popular dish in one city is often completely unknown even in other, nearby cities. It is not unheard of that one city or village prize a food or recipe that another city or region regards as unfit for human consumption. That is, there is only a limited sense that one unified Italian cuisine exists in reality. This is becoming less true, but there are instead many Italian cuisines, especially as you go back in time. Pizza appearing outside of Naples and its immediate region is very recent and was largely driven by American tourism of the 1950s. Before WWII, it was very rare for a Northern Italian to have ever laid eyes on a pizza if she hadn’t traveled to Naples. Indeed, pizzas weren’t all that well known in Rome either before WWII – even though Rome is a hours train ride from Naples.

  152. 152.

    Mrs. D. Ranged in AZ

    Since he took a position on the ACA I haven’t bought or eaten a single slice of Papa John’s shitty pizza and I never will. And my son’s school does charity fundraisers all the time. I have half a mind to write a letter to the principal and ask her to change the purveyor. Waste of time here in AZ.

  153. 153.

    Mnemosyne

    @Burritoboy:

    First off, there’s no doubt that pizza was invented as street food in Naples. Second, yes, Italian immigrants (primarily from Naples) in America started doing their own modifications on the basic idea, and so made it into something else. But the original was always a street food of Naples.

    This. I have no idea how I got caricatured as saying that pizza was solely a US invention, but at least I got to read a cool article by a pizza historian.

  157. 157.

    burritoboy

    Er, there’s really not much doubt about Naples’ claim – there were already prominent pizzerias in Naples by 1880 (the oldest one claims that it opened in 1830). There are preserved news articles from the Neapolitan press from 1880 on about pizzeria openings / closings, recipes and so on. There are multiple accounts from much earlier in the nineteenth century (some from even before) from travelers encountering pizza being hawked on Naples’ streets. The pizzerias took quite a while to get established off the streets.

  158. 158.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @Mnemosyne: Well, I’ll pull out my Eye-talian card instead – cento per cento, central Sicily & Molise – & I tell you the absolute worst pizza I ever ate was between trains in Verona at a sidewalk trattoria across from the Roman amphitheater. Their idea of quattro stagioni was the four seasons of a Siberian gulag served on a disk of stale burnt matzoh. Ptui! I had better pizza in the bowling alley where my mom bowled duckpins when I was a kid in the late 1950s.

  161. 161.

    Ruckus

    Shitty Politics, Shitty Pizza, Papa John’s

    You have to admit that the man knows his business. Shitty.
    That isn’t what he’s attempting? You could have fooled me.

  163. 163.

    Ruckus

    @Mnemosyne:

    Settebello on Colorado and El Molino is the place to go

    It’s OK, have had better. In Naples. Nice place, bar seems to be top notch if that sort of thing appeals. Can’t imagine that anyone will get fed there within 2 hrs in the next 2 weeks.

  164. 164.

    Mnemosyne

    @Ruckus:

    Their Happy Hour is great — “mini” pizzas for $5, and their idea of mini is very generous. You do have to sit at the bar, but you don’t have to get an alcoholic drink.

  166. 166.

    r€nato

    @Corner Stone: OK I will take the bait. US pizza is, in general, shit compared to even a mediocre Italian pizza from a wood-fired oven. Also, it’s more expensive by at least a third.

    The faults of American pizza in general: bad sauce, from the quality of the tomatoes to the effort put into making it. The quality of the cheese, as well as the quantity (and I am a cheese lover). Lack of attention/care to the quality of the dough and to the crust.

    Thick crust pizza will never pass my lips. You wanna eat bread with some cheese on it, that’s called schiacciata or focaccia and not pizza.

    Deep dish is not pizza (even when it’s good), it’s a casserole.

    I’m fine with experimenting but pineapple and ham pizza needs to die in a fire. Pineapple just doesn’t go with mozzarella and tomato sauce, and the kind of cooked ham that I have seen/tasted on this “pizza” is usually just bland as fuck and contributes nothing to the taste.

    I’ve had Papa John’s before I knew the CEO was one of the first who should grease the guillotines when the revolution comes. It struck me as no better or worse than Pizza Slut (I am old enough to remember when it was actually edible). Actually I think Schnatter – IIRC – was at one time an exec at PH so that explains a lot. Of course, if I am in a bind and the only options are PJ or PH, at least I can eat PH without the guilt of contributing to the wealth of a world-class douchebag.

    Little Caesar’s… can’t touch that stuff, it comes across to me as bread with a thin layer of something cheese-like and pepperoni on it. The only two good things I can say about it are that it’s readily available (brilliant idea) and the price. If you just want to scarf a pepperoni sort-of-a-pizza, can’t go wrong for $5. Perfect stoner food and yeah I’ll eat it after a long night of drinking and I just need something in my stomach to absorb the alcohol.

    Domino’s… haven’t eaten it in quite a while, I understand it’s not the joke that it once was.

    I can’t for the life of me understand why people frequent these national chains instead of local pizza joints. Your average hometown pizza place keeps your money local, doesn’t cost much more (if at all), and will always be better than a national chain that is pinching every penny to keep shareholders happy.

  169. 169.

    joel hanes

    > pizza

    authentic burritos
    Any Rand and libertarianism
    creationism
    vi vs emacs
    mac vs Windows
    Android v iPhone

    much heat, little light
    de gustibus

  170. 170.

    hugely

    @joel hanes: yea its better than arguing about whether Bernie is a Russian asset or not, or if Franken should have stayed on or not, etc etc. Bitching about Pizza is a fun pseudo argument

  173. 173.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @frosty: Tenpins is carnage; ducks take actual skill. You old enough to remember “Spare Time” with host John Bowman? Mon-Fri on WBAL (IIRC) about 10 AM, 4 or 5 5-lady teams from the area bowling 4 or 5 frames of ducks one team member per day. On her only appearance Mom won the daily trophy – a strike & 2 spares, never bowled that well before or since – but the team only finished 2nd for the week due to her slacker teammates,,,,

    And the pizza at Fair Lanes Eastpoint? Plain cheese, but my brother & I liked it so much Mom finally asked them what the dried green leafy stuff dumped on top was – & that was her introduction to oregano, which for some bizarre reason her Molisana mother had never used…& our taste buds were all the happier for it.

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