A housekeeping note before we start. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and dial it back a notch or two in the comments. I know that several of you have relatives in Ukraine. Some of them are in the Ukrainian military and some are just in harms way because Russia has the ability to bombard all of Ukraine. And I know you’re very concerned and stressed. Both for their safety and for Ukraine’s and Ukrainians in general. I also know that it is incredibly frustrating to watch the majority of Russians seem to, at best, shrug their shoulders at Putin’s genocidal re-invasion and just go on with their lives. Or complain about not being able to travel into and through the EU states easily or at all. I’m incredibly sympathetic. I’m also angry about what is going on for professional reasons, which I’ve already explained here. However, these updates and the comments sections are NOT here for us to advocate for a reciprocally genocidal response against all Russians. No matter how emotionally cathartic that might be. So please, dial it back a bit.
Here is President Zelenskyy’s address from earlier this evening. Video below, English transcript after the jump (emphasis mine):
Ukrainians!
And all Europeans whose lives are already endangered by Russian terror.
Russia does not stop its blackmail in and around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. Provocative shelling of the NPP territory continues. Under the cover of the plant, the occupiers are shelling nearby cities and communities. The Russian troops hide ammunition and equipment right in the facilities of the plant. De facto the plant is mined.
All this clearly shows that Russia is rejecting the security demands of the European Union countries and 15 other countries – 42 in total – that called on Russia to withdraw its forces from the plant. In particular, these are Turkey, Georgia, Great Britain, Korea, Japan, Australia, Canada, the United States of America.
If a terrorist state allows itself to completely ignore the demands of the international community, especially in such a sensitive topic, this clearly indicates the need for immediate action.
Any radiation incident at the Zaporizhzhia NPP can affect the countries of the European Union, Turkey, Georgia and countries from more distant regions. Everything depends solely on the direction and speed of the wind. If Russia’s actions cause a catastrophe, the consequences may also hit those who remain silent so far.
This issue has already been brought to the highest international level – the UN and the IAEA. Of course, Russian nuclear blackmail is also discussed between states. There is a corresponding statement from the ministers of foreign affairs of the G7. They clearly understand that Russia is responsible for this nuclear crisis.
But we need to move from discussions and calls to new tough sanctions against Russia, against Rosatom and the entire nuclear industry of the terrorist state. All Russian troops must be immediately withdrawn from the plant and neighboring areas without any conditions.
The world has been fighting for many decades for proper control over all activities with nuclear materials and radiation safety. And if now the world lacks the strength and determination to protect one nuclear plant, it means that the world loses. Loses to terrorists. Gives in to nuclear blackmail. And this may be a precedent that other terrorists will see. There is still a chance to prevent this defeat.
I held a meeting of the Staff of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief today. The main item on the agenda is a thorough analysis of the military-strategic situation. Head of the Main Intelligence Directorate Budanov and Head of the Foreign Intelligence Service Lytvynenko delivered reports. A separate report was delivered by Commander of the Special Operations Forces Khorenko. Of course, there were Zaluzhny, Shaptala, Monastyrskyi, Danilov, Yermak, Reznikov.
We also considered – from what can be said publicly – the issue of providing our military with weapons and ammunition and the status of implementation of the previous decisions of the Staff – all of them must be implemented 100%, the responsibility for this is personal.
A rather productive meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine took place today. Among other things, the deputies voted for two members of the High Council of Justice.
I continue to establish relations at the highest level with African countries. Today I spoke with the President of Niger – until today there were no contacts at this level between our states. I thanked him for the support within the UN. Of course, the key threats to global security were discussed.
I held a meeting on the preparation of the Crimea Platform. I expect the expansion of geography, level and number of participants. Today, the Advisory Council on the Deoccupation of Crimea was created to coordinate all measures and projects in this direction and ensure the activities of the Crimea Platform.
I met with Andriy Shevchenko and actor Liev Schreiber, ambassadors of our state charity platform UNITED24. We discussed how we can maintain the maximum attention of the world to the needs of our defense. Each week, this task becomes increasingly important.
Russia has created so many crises, including the crisis of the cost of living in many countries, as well as food and energy crises, that spread insecurity and irritation with life throughout the world. We must keep global attention focused on the root cause of these crises, namely: Russian aggression. And we have to remind that it was Ukraine that suffered the most from Russian terror.
I am grateful to all who perform this important function, in particular the UNITED24 ambassadors. Their activity means billions of hryvnias for Ukraine and a constant increase in attention to the needs of our state and people.
The situation on the frontline has not undergone significant changes over the past day. The heroic resistance of our military continues in Donbas, the Kharkiv region. We are putting pressure on the enemy in the south of our country.
I would like to especially thank all our gunners, our intelligence officers, the Security Service of Ukraine and all others who ensure the successive destruction of the occupiers’ command posts and their ammunition depots. All Russian terrorists should know that every meter of Ukrainian land is an absolute danger for them. No matter how they try to hide. No matter where it is. They will be found and destroyed.
Eternal glory to all who fight for Ukraine!
Eternal gratitude to everyone who helps our state!
Glory to Ukraine!
The Russian military is basically using its occupation of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant as a psychological occupation to threaten and terrorize the Ukrainians. And everyone else who doesn’t want to be irradiated for that matter. President Zelenskyy is being very forceful, and appropriately so, in pushing back against Russia’s nuclear blackmail and terror. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) is trying to get an inspection team into the plant to do an assessment, but is having trouble. The UN had to issue a clarification today refuting Russian claims that the UN was preventing the IAEA from doing an inspecting. Ukrainska Pravda has the details:
he UN has denied Russia’s allegations that the UN Secretariat is blocking International Atomic Energy Agency’s (IAEA) access to the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP), which remains under the control of Russian occupying forces.
Source: European Pravda, quoting Stéphane Dujarric, the spokesman for the UN Secretary-General
Details: Dujarric said that in the past few days various Russian officials have made repeated comments that the UN Secretariat was cancelling or blocking visits from the IAEA to the Zaporizhzhia NPP.
Quote from UN Secretary-General’s spokesman: “I want to clarify a few points. First, the IAEA is a specialised agency that acts in full independence in deciding how to implement its specific mandate.
Second, the UN Secretariat has no authority to block or cancel any IAEA activities.
Third, in close contact with the IAEA, the UN Secretariat has assessed that it has in Ukraine the logistics and security capacity to be able to support any IAEA mission to the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant from Kyiv, should both Russia and Ukraine agree.”
Background: A total of 42 countries have called on Russia to withdraw its troops from the Zaporizhzhia NPP, stressing that their presence there poses a threat to the safe operation of the nuclear plant.
On Thursday, 11 August, UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres issued a warning over ZNPP; he called for withdrawing any military personnel and equipment from the plant and refraining from any further deployment of forces or equipment to the site. Josep Borrell, High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, has joined the calls to demilitarise the zone around the ZNPP.
Meanwhile, Vasily Nebenzya, Russia’s Permanent Representative to the United Nations, did not support the offer to create a demilitarised zone around the Zaporizhzhia NPP.
Here is former NAVDEVGRU Squadron Leader Chuck Pfarrer’s assessment of the fight over the ZNPP:
ZAPORIZHZHIA NUCLEAR PLANT: Ukraine and Russia blame each other for shelling that has caused fires in the vicinity. Moldovan Civil Defense authorities have imported anti-radiation pills for distribution to civilians in the event of a nuclear incident. https://t.co/RDcnFKsHzm pic.twitter.com/mkkpUNz1yd
— Chuck Pfarrer (@ChuckPfarrer) August 15, 2022
I want to just take a moment to also note something, which I’ll deal with more fully over the weekend: President Zelenskyy’s diplomacy with African states. Russia’s attempts to create a food crisis will severely effect Africa and Zelenskyy is trying to get ahead of the problem by directly opening up diplomatic relations with as many African states as possible.
Here is today’s operational update from Ukraine’s MOD:
The operational update regarding the russian invasion on 06.00, on August 15, 2022
Glory to Ukraine! The one hundred seventy third (173) day of the heroic resistance of the Ukrainian people to a russian military invasion continues.
The situation has not undergone significant changes in the Volyn, Polissya, and Siversky directions.
The enemy fired artillery shells in the areas of Lyute, Iskryskivshchyna and Bilovody settlements of the Sumy oblast.
In the Kharkiv direction, the enemy shelled the areas of Svitlychne, Shapovalivka, Prudyanka, Dementiivka, Pytomnyk, Velyki Prohody, Ruski Tyshki, Peremoha, Verkhniy Saltiv, Husarivka, Bazaliivka, Stara Hnylytsia and Protopopivka settlements from tanks and rocket artillery. Carried out airstrikes near Rtyshchivka and Verkhnyi Saltiv.
In the Slovyansk direction, the enemy carried out fire damage from artillery of various types near Velyka Komyshuvakha, Brazhivka, Zalyman, Virnopilla, Mazanivka, and Bohorodychne.
It led an assault in the direction of Tychotske – Dolyna, was unsuccessful, suffered losses, withdrew. In the Kramatorsk direction, the enemy is trying to conduct offensive actions. Actively uses assault and army aviation. Shelling was recorded near Bilohorivka, Hryhorivka, Starodubivka, Vesele, Fedorivka, and Siversk.
In the Bakhmut direction, the enemy intensified reconnaissance of the front edge of our defense, carried out shelling from artillery and tanks near Toretsk, Bakhmutske, Bilohorivka, Kurdyumivka, Vasylivka, Zaytseve, and Zalizne. It carried out airstrikes in the area of the settlement of Soledar. It led offensive battles in the direction of Soledar and Kodema, had no success, withdrew.
In the Avdiivka direction, shelling was recorded near Sribne, Krasnohorivka, Opytne, Pervomaiske, Novobakhmutivka, and Maryinka, as well as an airstrike near Krasnohorivka.
In order to improve the tactical position, the occupiers conducted offensive battles in the direction of Pisky and Pervomaiske, they did not succeed, they retreated.
In the Novopavlivske and Zaporizhzhia directions, the enemy fired tanks, barrel and jet artillery in the areas of the settlements of Vuhledar, Velyka Novosilka, Novomykhailivka, Novodanylivka, Ternuvate, Burlatske, Charivne, Zelene Pole, Mala Tokmachka, Poltavka, Novoandriivka and Privilne.
Conducted aerial reconnaissance of the UAVs near Stepnohirsk, Shcherbaky, Stepove and Hulyaipole. In the direction of the settlement of Vremivka, our soldiers neutralized a reconnaissance group of the occupiers. The enemy waged offensive battles in the direction of Pavlivka, had no success, and retreated.
In the South Buh direction, the enemy is concentrating its main efforts on holding the occupied areas. It carried out shelling from tanks, barrel and rocket artillery in the areas of the settlements of Stepova Dolyna, Lymany, Prybuzke, Novomykolaivka, Kotlyareve, Partyzanske, Pervomaiske, Blahodatne, Kobzartsi, Vesely Kut, Ternivka, Andriivka, Lozove, Tokareve, Zarichne, and Olhyne. Airstrikes near Bilohirka and Andriyivka.
Conducted aerial reconnaissance of the UAVs near Snihurivka, Chervony Yar and Bila Krynytsia. Two Kalibr sea-based cruise missile carriers are ready to use high-precision weapons.
russian propaganda continues to lie, inventing non-existent victories and covering up the crimes of its army and mercenaries. Therefore, we urge you to trust information only from verified sources and not to spread russian fakes and disinformation.
We believe in the Armed Forces of Ukraine! Together we will win!
Glory to Ukraine!
Here is the British MOD’s assessment for today:
Here is their updated map for today:
Euromaidan Press provides us with a map and assessment of the battle in Kherson:
Most of Russian military command escaped from occupied Kherson – Oblast Council
No safe supply routes left,H 🇺🇦as fire control over all main roads, after Ukraine's latest strike, crossing Antonivskyi bridge is impossible even by foot -Deputy council headhttps://t.co/pxDilTUHMP
— Euromaidan Press (@EuromaidanPress) August 15, 2022
And the Russian military command has fled:
⚡️Russian military command has left Kherson – first deputy head of the Kherson Oblast Council
Very telling
— UkraineWorld (@ukraine_world) August 15, 2022
The Ukrainians also demolished the Wagner base in Poposna:
Prigozhin, whose death was rumored in the Ukrainian media, walks among the ruins of the Wagner base. pic.twitter.com/ZmfUWB6jKn
— NEXTA (@nexta_tv) August 15, 2022
Footage of the aftermath of yesterday's strike on the #Wagner PMC base in #Popasna. pic.twitter.com/mhed4MnH1P
— NEXTA (@nexta_tv) August 15, 2022
Kharkiv was bombarded by the Russians:
Ihor Terekhov, the Mayor of Kharkiv said that the Russian aggressors were shelling the city with artillery and called on everyone to stay in shelters.
Source: Ihor Terekhov in Telegram
Quote: “Kharkiv is under artillery fire again. Currently, [Russian troops are firing on] Kyivskyi district. I call on everyone to be cautious, to follow the rule of two walls [it is much safer for people to stay in the space between two walls during artillery and rocket attacks, – ed.].”
Details: Kharkiv residents used social networks to report that the city came under fire at about 23:00.
The Ukrainian Air Force lost another fighter pilot:
Anton Lystopad, one of the best pilots in Ukrainian Army, died in combat.
A first class pilot, he defended Ukraine for years. Anton led the aviation column during the 30th Independence Day parade last year.
It is a great loss for Ukraine. RIP, Hero. pic.twitter.com/MWiSG6maLq
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) August 15, 2022
Lord, guard and guide the men who fly
Through the great spaces in the sky.
Be with them always in the air,
In darkening storms or sunlight fair;
Oh, hear us when we lift our prayer,
For those in peril in the air!
Mary C. D. Hamilton (1915)
That’s enough for tonight!
Your daily Patron!
Are you on fire this Monday? pic.twitter.com/GwzizbN0is
— Patron (@PatronDsns) August 15, 2022
And here’s a bonus: apparently Patron called in assistance from an Australian ally!
Apparently a kangaroo attacked the gates of the Russian embassy in Australia. I guess now we know where kangaroos stand on the war. pic.twitter.com/f6b0s03itf
— Bakhti Nishanov (@b_nishanov) August 11, 2022
And a new video from Patron’s official TikTok:
@patron__dsns
The caption translates as:
Oh🙈 #pespatron #patrondsns #slavaukraini
Open thread!
Omnes Omnibus
Thank you for that first paragraph.
SiubhanDuinne
The Navy Hymn always gets me, every time. We don’t hear the verse about “those in peril in the air” very often, but it’s just as moving as the more familiar verses. Thank you for including it, and RIP to Anton Lystopad.
HumboldtBlue
Adam, this isn’t Ukraine related, but is there anything here you haven’t already pointed out? And also, is this person a reliable source. I have no clue who he is.
West of the Rockies
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ll second that sentiment.
Also, too, glad to see the Wagner base reduced to sand. I’d not weep if some actual Wagnerians were likewise rearranged.
realbtl
Adding to OO, thanks.
Grumpy Old Railroader
Opening paragraph was well stated. I cringe when I read commenters who hate “all” Russians. We overlook what a melting pot Russia is with many indigenous peoples and not overlooking ethnic Russians themselves. And what information do they get? They only have access to what the government wants them to know.
Most Russians, like most people on this planet, are just trying to survive. They don’t want war. They want enough to eat, a roof over their heads, and a better life for their children. We are all alike in that desire.
Roger Moore
@HumboldtBlue:
I would take what they say with a grain of salt, given they imply the Russian operation against the Republican party started in 2016. They may have gotten a big in with them in 2016, but the groundwork was laid a long time before. Just as an example, Maria Butina was working on infiltrating the NRA starting in 2011, and there’s no reason to think that was the beginning of Russia’s operation against the NRA.
Gin & Tonic
@Grumpy Old Railroader: At the risk of belaboring a point I have made here more than once: if russian social media (VK, Telegram) are not accessible to you (using a general “you” here) then you have no idea how pervasive the russian bloodlust against Ukrainians is. The only modern comparison is Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines.
I’m going to log off before I write anything more, out of respect for Adam.
Carlo Graziani
@Gin & Tonic: I believe it.
HumboldtBlue
@Roger Moore:
That was my initial thought and well, and I am really cheating by asking here because I’m only side-eyeing that thread while my real focus was on the Phils and now Ted Lasso.
Obvious Russian Troll
Toronto has a pretty large Russian population, and I have two data points on that.
First, one of my wife’s friends is thoroughly against the war. Her mother passed away around the start of the war and she’d like to get her dad out of St Petersburg but there are any number of roadblocks there.
We also live down the street from a Russian Orthodox church. The Orthodox Church in North America appear to be against the war, and our local church has been gathering supplies and helping find placement for Ukrainian refugees.
Alison Rose 💙🌻💛
I know I’ve sometimes come across as a little bloodlusting re: russia, but I don’t actually advocate or want anything done to regular citizens that mirrors what they are doing to Ukraine, because I have a soul. But if some of them suffer because of their country’s actions, well, I’m not going to weep about that. And I think what leads me to say things more vehemently is seeing people go, in my opinion, too far in giving russian civilians the benefit of the doubt, and with the condescension I’ve seen directed at folks like G&T. I’ll leave it there, and try to be more mindful going forward, as I hope others will.
Re: Zelenskyy’s contacts with African nations: Thank you for highlighting this, and I look forward to more from you on the topic. I’ve been very moved by his overtures toward Africa and Latin America, and how often he notes that it is the first time there has been connections at the top level between Ukraine and the various countries he’s spoken with. I think it’s clear, even without knowing how the war will go, that he has already proven to be a pivotal figure in Ukrainian history, probably more so than anyone would’ve thought a few years ago.
Also that kangaroo is awesome. I do love seeing the local fauna telling russia to йди до біса.
Thank you as always, Adam.
Grumpy Old Railroader
@Gin & Tonic: Oh I believe it but just as over here there is a lot of posting by idiots and many Americans are oblivious to those postings (like my 94 YO mother). You just reaffirmed we do not have a monopoly on the idiot category. In my heart I believe that many Russians, like Americans here, keep their head down, don’t say much and just try to live day to day
Adam L Silverman
@HumboldtBlue: I’ve seen that guy tweet before. I have no idea who he is or why he has a blue certification check mark from Twitter. Nor why he’s qualified to comment on what he comments on.
Villago Delenda Est
Can we beat up on Russian collaborator scum like Fuckyo Rose Carlson, Tulsi Gabbard, Ron Paul, Noam Chomsky, TFG, and Glemm Greenwald?
YY_Sima Qian
The Ukrainian Armed Forces appear to be very methodical in its efforts around Kherson. Using accurate long range fire to threaten & disrupt Russian lines of communication, significantly attrit Russian stock of munitions, & drive down Russian morale. By the time the Ukrainians actually launch its offensive, Russian resistant would be much lighter than it other would be, & so would Ukrainian losses. Contrast this w/ Russian offensives in Donbas. This is probably the most prudent course of action, as opposed to some kind of blitzkrieg, given the enormous losses the Ukrainians have suffered in the current war so far, & the fact that the Ukrainian Army (unlikely the US Army) has not trained for aggressive maneuver warfare at high operational tempo.
Of course, the Ukrainian Army should still end up surprising most observers & attack from a different direction. I do wonder if part of motivations for the Russian activities in the ZNPP might be holding it hostage to give the Ukrainian Army pause from attacking in that direction.
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: G&T is correct on just how vilely, genocidal Russian social media is towards Ukraine and Ukrainians. That can’t be ignored. Putin and Russia need to be stopped. I’m simply asking that we don’t turn the comments into a dark mirror of Russian social media.
Carlo Graziani
An IAEA “inspection” would be a one-off crazytown improvised high-pressure operation, like few the agency has undertaken. In fact, I don’t believe that they have carried one out in a war zone, have they? Usually it’s one inspector working under time pressure to verify some seals, some camera footage, etc. In a more-or-less cooperating agreement signatory nation. I can’t even imagine what kind of inspection arrangements they are contemplating here.
Villago Delenda Est
@YY_Sima Qian: The Ukraine Army remembers WWII better than the Russian Army does. Also, a mobile defense Tour de Force took place on Ukraine soil by German General von Manstein.
Adam L Silverman
@HumboldtBlue: If I wasn’t clear, I wouldn’t rely on anything that guy says.
Adam L Silverman
@Villago Delenda Est: Of course.
HumboldtBlue
@Adam L Silverman:
Understood. He piqued my curiosity because I had already learned most of what he was reporting from you, and I’ve never come across him before.
The Golux
Kangaroos are weird.
Carlo Graziani
@YY_Sima Qian: if the command elements are already South of the River, I can only imagine the rest of the force intends to make a fighting retreat across pontoons and ferries, leaving or destroying any heavy equipment that cannot be withdrawn. They aren’t going to accept a big manpower loss for the sake of a city that they can’t keep anyway.
As the UA enters the city, though, the Russians will begin to destroy it. That’s pretty much guaranteed.
The Pale Scot
Adam, you should have shared the satisfaction of how the Wagner C&C was targeted.
Wagner operatives had pictures of themselves taken by a Russian journalist in front of their new digs and they happily posted them on their Telegram accounts. The pics also included a sign with the address of the building.
KABOOM!
And the owner of the Wagner group, one of Putler’s oligarchs was supposedly there at the time.
I cracked open the Ketal One after I read that.
The Pale Scot
@Adam L Silverman:
I’m simply asking that we don’t turn the comments into a dark mirror of Russian social media
“The Abyss also looks into you”
YY_Sima Qian
@Adam L Silverman: I also want to thank you for the 1st paragraph. In every war, de-humanization of the enemy is par for the course that enable all kinds of atrocities to be committed. Right now we are seeing this from the Russian side in this war, only much worse than the already terrible par for the course.
People justified fire bombing of Germany & Japanese cities in WW II, too, which specifically targeted civilian populations, using pretty much the same logic. Once the war is over there tend to be some introspection & soul searching, leading to regret, but all too often the lessons learned are promptly forgotten as the next war comes along. We need to do better.
(Mind you, I don’t think refusing to issue tourist visas to Russian passport holders is that problematic in & of itself, in a vacuum, but is concerning as part of ongoing slide toward Otherizing all 145M citizens of the Russian Federation.)
As for social media, my experience w/ English & Chinese language social media have consistently shown to me that the most extreme, irresponsible, & mindless voices are the most magnified, across national boundaries & language barriers. Judging solely from social media, especially during times of conflict, few people can be deemed as redeemable.
Ksmiami
@Grumpy Old Railroader: I think most Russians don’t really care tbh. Nihilism has taken hold.
The Pale Scot
@YY_Sima Qian:
I can kind of see the UKR seeing that they just have to kill as many RU as possible to get the point across. They telegraphed intensions to reclaim Kherson, which led the RU to move assets into the area. And then the UKR takes out the bridges and doesn’t let the RU personnel to retreat forcing them to surrender. That might get thru to the RU population that continuing the war is not going to make things better.
UKR doesn’t have the armor or air support to do a frontal assault, they have to corrode RU from the inside
UKR has to see that this is only over once the current regime and it’s cadre are hanging from lampposts
Ksmiami
@Grumpy Old Railroader: not really. It’s a pretty hopeless nation actually. Even Saudi Arabia actually is investing more in its people and future.
featheredsprite
Hi, guys. We don’t mean to be genocidal, t’s just that blood lust is highly contagious.
Thank you Adam.
Hang in there, G & T. We’re on the same side, even if we do bitch a lot.
Omnes Omnibus
My god. I can’t even….
The Pale Scot
The intent wasn’t genocide, it was destroying the Axis power’s ability to manufacture war stocks by killing and demoralizing the workforce. Even after the Japanese cities were ashes Mitsubishi was still making torpedoes by moving the machinery to private homes.
Chetan Murthy
@The Pale Scot: My memory from reading Wages of Destruction was that firebombing industry *did* work in that, for instance, it shut down ball-bearing production. It just too a shit-ton of bombing to achieve the effect, but by the end of the war, Germany *was* having trouble making just about anything that required real mass production and precision. Like, say, ball bearings.
dnfree
@SiubhanDuinne: My father was in the Navy in World War II. He never talked much about his experience, which included his ship being hit by a Japanese plane, but he requested that we have the Navy Hymn as part of his funeral service. He said he heard it multiple times during his Navy years. I had never heard it before.
Carlo Graziani
@The Pale Scot: To YY_Sima Quian’s point, though, by 1945 8 years of war, counting from the Nanking massacre, had so desensitized all combatants to the humanity of their respective enemies that the horrible burning deaths of hundreds of thousands in mere days posed tactical, logistical, economic, and strategic problems, but never, even for a single individual in the US government is it recorded that they posed moral ones, that I am aware of.
frosty
Adam: Thanks for the housekeeping note. It needed to be said.
dr. luba
I have friends and family members in the ЗСУ on the front lines. Friends of many years. Kids that I taught at summer camp, and kids that I’ve known since birth.
My father and his brothers survived the genocide of 1932-33. His father was killed in the Stalinist purges a few years later.
I have no love for Russia. Never have. But I’ve never advocated for a genocide of Russia, just for them to get the hell out of Ukraine, to leave us alone, and for them to be shunned by the world community for what they’ve done. They’ve “otherized” themselves. Genocide should not be forgotten nor rewarded.
The Pale Scot
@Omnes Omnibus:
Vodka dude. During the pandemic I was imbibing, then I pulled the stick back, looked around and asked myself what the fuck?
The Pale Scot
@Chetan Murthy:
Total War is a hell of thing.
HumboldtBlue
@Carlo Graziani:
Oh, I think plenty of people, on our side and on their side, knew just how horrific the war was and just how horrific the actions that were taken to defeat an enemy.
And that’s just a three-second quick internet search for a quick link, because there are plenty of sources and plenty of documented and recorded thoughts on the war and what it wrought.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Pale Scot:
I was a soldier before cell phones. I just can’t believe it….
Lyrebird
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I do not have those close connections (ETA: so what do I know, just quoting your words that resonated strongly). When I hear the Ukr leadership also holding to principles, even in the face of staggering loss and genocide, I figure the least I can do is to follow their lead. Here in the US there is lots to do like
@Villago Delenda Est: said and root out folks like the Rands and supporters of fascism. Letting them keep going them hurts Ukraine as well.
To me, when people are patronized as dupes when they speak up for the Geneva Conventions, that is is a slippery slope.
ETA: I also want to protect Balloon Juice. There is no magic filter to keep trolls out. And pushing people to become more and more extreme is a tool used by groups that are not trying to help, to say the least.
Another Scott
@The Golux: Looks to me like s/he was wanting to get out of traffic, but, yeah, they’re weird beasties.
Cheers,
Scott.
The Pale Scot
@Carlo Graziani:
Never said that it bothered Truman or Lemay. I’m kind of surprised that the Marines didn’t use war gasses to finish off the dead enders on Jima, Okinawa etc that would come out of the caves at night. Really, you don’t want to surrender? You wanna die for your emperor, we can help you out with that. We will treat you like a rabid dog.
Every day the war dragged on Naval pilots and rifle Marines were lost on “routine” patrols, landings, walking on the wrong path. Karma baby
Omnes Omnibus
@Lyrebird:
Exactly.
Chetan Murthy
@Lyrebird:
Hasn’t Zelenskiyy also said “if you’re Russian and you’re not speaking out, you’re complicit” ? Hasn’t he also forcefully advocated tourist visa bans for Russians from all Western countries ? Escalating sanctions of all trade with Russia ? And aren’t these also forms of collective punishment, of “good Russians” as well as bad?
YY_Sima Qian
@Carlo Graziani: Agree. The Russian Army group west of the Dniper will lose most of its heavy equipment in the retreat. Can’t imagine them putting up that much of a fight if the command element has already fled across the river.
Kent
I tend to view Russia just like America.
There is a percentage of the population that is delusional and frankly unreachable. A population steeped in racism and hate. Ours are the MAGA horde. I’m related to a bunch of them. I’m not sure what you call the Russian version.
The only real question is the percentages. Here MAGA represents maybe 45% of the population. In Russia I have no idea but I suspect it is much higher, or seems like it because the opposition is forced to be so silent. But who really knows.
In any event, all the twitter stuff we see about obnoxious Russians doing racist shit around Europe? Does anyone here who lived through the insanity that was the Iraq war think Americans would behave any differently? Of course we wouldn’t and haven’t. Who remembers “Freedom Fries” and the canceling of the Dixie Chicks by the pre-MAGA hordes? And all the random anti-Muslin racism? Even by columnists like Tom Friedman who should have known better? That is absolutely no different from how Russia is behaving today.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chetan Murthy:
Yes. Are you suggesting there is some contradiction?
ETA: War is ugly, brutal, and vicious. There, however, are rules about what can and cannot be done. Those rules are there to try to keep the ugliness, brutality, and viciousness within limits. One of the things that the rules protect is the soldiers who follow them. Not allowing monsters to make other people become monsters themselves.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: Has me flabbergasted as well. OPSEC in a war zone is EVERYONE’S business.
Mike in NC
The PBS series “The American Experience” did an episode several years ago called ‘The Bombing of Germany’ which was excellent. Highly recommended. Available on DVD.
Chetan Murthy
@Omnes Omnibus: You wrote that we were treading close to eliminationist rhetoric yesterday. I didn’t see much other than what I just wrote, and that the idea that somehow Russian and Ukrainian people were brethren, at this point, was farcical.
So I’ll say it again, using another well-known quotation:
Well-respected polling organizations find that well past 50% (I’ve read numbers in the 70s) of the Russian population supports this war. Cutting off all trade with them, until they capitulate, doesn’t seem eliminationist, given these facts.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: This is one of the reasons why TFG’s pardons of known, convicted US war criminals is so reprehensible. TFG has endangered the lives of all US service members by doing that.
frosty
@HumboldtBlue: I’ve found the opposite. Lots and lots of books on the 8th Air Force, quite a few on RAF Bomber Command, but almost nothing on the 20th Air Force and the B-29s bombing Japan. Even in recent years when the personal memoirs have been coming out.
HumboldtBlue
@Omnes Omnibus:
And how has that worked out for us? It’s a lovely thought, it’s a noble ideal, and yet we are just as vicious and brutal as we need to be. When someone determines “those rules” don’t apply we get Srebrenica, or Bataan, or Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, or a gulag or a Super Max or a thousand other ghastly and horrific instances of torture, murder and mayhem.
We know without a shadow of a doubt that the government that represents us is fully on board with broaching every considered norm if it means some form of victory or a defense of the realm.
Of course, they get to determine when the rules are applied.
Omnes Omnibus
Don’t pretend that we are talking about sanctions. I was referring to commenters who talked about wiping Moscow off the map and similar comments. I stand by what I said. You will note that other commenters saw the same thing. And Adam felt the need to make the statement that he made.
Omnes Omnibus
@HumboldtBlue: It probably works better than not having any rules would. Would you like to try that?
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Agreed.
Chetan Murthy
@Omnes Omnibus: I went back and looked *carefully*, and still couldn’t find what you’re alluding to. I’m not trolling you, Omnes: I really couldn’t find it.
HumboldtBlue
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh no, we already do.
I understand the guardrails and their desperate need, but we sure as hell find a way around them, and the “we” is us, humans.
@frosty:
And you’re correct, there is a distinct lack of immediately available books or journals related to the firebombing of Japan.
eversor
@Roger Moore:
People hate this, but it’s religious. Russia countered the sexual revolution and gay rights. At some point we are going to have to admit the issue of the cross in the room or give up. People here hate to hear it but it always comes down to religion. Religion or rights? Pick you don’t get both.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chetan Murthy: Okay, I imagined it and so did everyone else. No one has suggested anything other than sanctions in Adam’s Ukraine threads. Some imagination I’ve got, huh?
Kent
Russia has the highest divorce rate and highest abortion rate in all of Europe.
They might pretend to be Christian. But that is all it is. A façade. Of course our Evangelical Christian Right is absolutely no different.
The anti-LGBT stuff in both Russia and the Evangelical world here is nothing more than the new excuse for bigotry since the old version isn’t quite so acceptable anymore. Although Trump is doing his best to bring that back too.
Marc
@Chetan Murthy:
A quick search indicates that US popular support for “liberating” Iraq went from a bit over 50% before the war to well over 70% after we started “winning”. It’s amazing what you can convince people of if you feed them the right lies.
Chetan Murthy
@Marc: You’ve made an excellent argument for our culpability as a nation for that illegal war. An argument with which I agree, even though I opposed that war. And since I did nothing concrete (not even demonstrations), I certainly am personally culpable.
Amir Khalid
@eversor:
Do you really see religion and human rights as mutually antithetical? As far as I know, most people don’t. Nor do most Jackals.
livewyre
@Amir Khalid: I’m not sure it would be unfair to say that this one has either given up on the rule of law or has never conceived of it in the first place.
ColoradoGuy
Every once in a while, I burn myself when using a soldering iron. Nothing horrific, or worth a hospital visit, just a little puff of smoke and brief “zing!” as the iron is yanked away. Lesson learned.
Let me tell you, the smell of newly burnt human flesh is like nothing else … a sort of sickly-sweet barbecue smell, with something really foul and nasty in it. I can believe the accounts from the B-29 crews that some of them threw up during the incendiary bomb runs over Japanese cities … the low-altitude runs were low enough for the crews to smell that very distinctive smell and react to it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if repeated low-altitude bomb runs had a degrading effect on B-29 crew morale, Curtis LeMay’s fanaticism towards the Japanese notwithstanding. That smell alone would be why B-29 crews didn’t have much to say about Curtis LeMay’s incendiary campaign over Japanese cities. As terrible as Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, the nightly firebombings were probably worse.
It also makes me less sympathetic to German towns near the death camps. They had to have known.
Andrya
@eversor: Full disclosure: I’m a practicing Roman Catholic Christian (and a supporter of LGBTQ rights…)
Yes, putin says that his war is to promote traditional Christian values- but you would be very naive to believe him. Traditional Christian values, after all, include “Thou shalt do no murder…” Plus, putin has lied about the Ukraine war again and again and again. (“The Ukrainians crucified a russian child in 2014”? “Ukrainians are committing genocide against russian language speakers”? Give me a break!)
|~Persecution of LGBTQ people has a long history in russian political tradition, not dependent on religion. Stalin (no Christian he) criminalized same sex relations in 1933 (link) and sent many LGTBQ people to the gulag. Although some russian authorities tried to improve the situation, discrimination persisted throughout the Communist period.
bjacques
If people want scorched-earth revenge against who support the war or at least don’t object even in private, channel it into that conversation about yoghurt. About as long as there’s been a Russia, the official national character has been bluster matched with a craving for the world’s respect. So ruthlessly mock their lack of consumer choice and their Soviet-era inability to produce suits that fit and TVs that don’t explode, when you can get them that is.
And religion is just another outlet for one’s inclinations. If you want to make beautiful jazz in a noble cause (Country Preacher, by Cannonball Adderley, recording of a benefit for Operation Bread Basket), your god will grant permission. If you want to keep gay teenagers out of schools but not your hotel room during CPAC, you’ll find a god who will ordain that too.
Marc
I do have pictures somewhere of my wife, myself, and my then 4 year old daughter sitting on my shoulders, standing with half a million other people on Market Street in San Francisco in early 2003. In the end, though, there wasn’t much concrete any of us could have done. Barbara Lee was, and still is, our congressional rep, so there’s that.
Eolirin
@eversor: FFS. This is so ahistorical too. Stalin and Hitler and Mao committed unspeakable atrocities and slaughtered millions of people and were all atheistic with anti-religious regimes.
Getting rid of religion doesn’t get rid of tribalism. It doesn’t get rid of totalitarianism. There’s always some other difference to focus on.
livewyre
@Eolirin: There’s always a “them” to single out for destruction, isn’t there? To the point where not doing so feels like a historical novelty.
It’s simple that way – just name an enemy, and instant vindication. No need for process or result. Might feels right. No wonder rule-of-force is almost all talk.
AxelFoley
@Kent:
CPCB
(yes, I had to Google Translate English to Russian for “Make Russia Great Again”)
Carlo Graziani
Per NYT: A Russian ammunition storage site has been blown up in the Dzhankoi district, Crimea. This time, everyone on both sides concurs that it was SOF.
Chris Johnson
@Gin & Tonic: This is an interesting point but ask yourself:
Given that it is both social media AND Russian, what are the chances that it is a ginormous pile of Internet Research Agency propaganda made that way on purpose?
Hell, our OWN social media is absolutely carpeted with Russian propaganda to the point that they got to put in a President of their choosing. I can’t even imagine what Russian social media must be like, and from your account I don’t have to imagine.
Color me unsurprised and unconvinced it is representative of
any significantall of the popular view. It’s made to LOOK like exactly that, but you cannot take such things at face value.Kayla Rudbek
@Kent: and they have had a high abortion rate for a very long time – see The Women’s Decameron by a Soviet/Russian woman writer (Julia Vosnesenskya? Spelling of her last name is probably wrong)