Repubs have a massive Dobbs problem. It’s terrifying for GOP candidates who have to get votes outside of deep red areas, so Repub politicians and the anti-abortion activists who support them are addressing it in the usual way: lies and misdirection.
But it’s tricky because they spent decades screaming in people’s faces while trying to remove a constitutional protection for half the population. Adding to the awkwardness, their victory was delivered by an openly rigged, corrupt court that most Americans don’t trust.
That’s a lot to sweep under the rug, and the task is complicated by the fact that Repubs are embroiled in a contested presidential primary. Weirdly enough, this might be one of the few scenarios where access-based, horserace reportage can be useful. Stenography allows us to observe the narrative sausage-making from each camp in real time.
Like his rivals, Trump has tried to have it both ways on abortion. He steamrolled Kristen Welker during the NBC interview yesterday, and the take from NYT horserace specialists Haberman & Swan suggests the GOP field has a collective action dilemma: Repubs overall would be better off downplaying the issue, but individual candidates have an incentive to play it up.
Here’s a gift link to the Times piece and a few excerpts:
Asked whether Mr. DeSantis went too far by signing a six-week abortion ban, Mr. Trump replied: “I think what he did is a terrible thing and a terrible mistake…”
With Ms. Welker on Sunday, Mr. Trump again refused to clarify his position.
“What’s going to happen is you’re going to come up with a number of weeks or months,” Mr. Trump said. “You’re going to come up with a number that’s going to make people happy.”
He made a far-fetched promise that as president he would “sit down with both sides” and negotiate a deal on abortion that would result in “peace on that issue for the first time in 52 years.”
Yep, that’s definitely not going to happen, just like the “terrific,” “phenomenal” and “fantastic” replacement Trump promised for the Affordable Care Act never materialized either. But Trump, a prolific liar and equivocator, recognizes other liars and equivocators, and in that interview, he called them out or put them in a position to call themselves out.
Welker tried to pin Trump down on whether he supported federal or state level bans. It doesn’t matter, according to Trump, who remained fixated on a magic number of weeks where there’s an imaginary consensus that only he can reveal. When Welker tried to get an answer on the fetal personhood question, Trump aimed a firehose of bullshit at her, splattering his rivals in the process:
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP: It’s much more important, the number of weeks is much more important. But something will happen with the number of weeks, the amount of time, after which you can’t do it. And you know what? The most — the most powerful people that are anti-abortion are okay with that now. And you know what? They weren’t okay with that even a year ago.
KRISTEN WELKER: Your former vice president, Mike Pence, believes that a fetus should have constitutional rights. Do you believe that, Mr. president?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP: Well, Mike Pence said something about 15 weeks too, which was a big change for Mike Pence, because Mike Pence had no exceptions. I have exceptions, by the way. I think people should have exceptions. I think if it’s rape or incest or the life of the mother, I think you have to have exceptions. It’s very important…
Now all of a sudden — excuse me — now all of a sudden he’s saying 15 weeks. I said, “Wow, where did that come from? That’s a radical change.” Look, something is going to happen that’s going to be good for everybody. And that’s what I’m — I’m almost like a mediator in this case.
He’s not wrong about Pence — supporting a 15-week federal ban (even while leaving draconian state bans in place) is a radical change. The forced birth gang’s willingness to engage in that bit of misdirection is a testament to how much they fear the backlash.
The Times interview notes that Marjorie Dannenfelser, the president of S.B.A. Pro-Life America, was “less than thrilled” that Trump attacked DeSantis for the six-week ban but unwilling to criticize Trump. Of course she won’t criticize Trump — she’s as much of a liar as he is.
None of the forced-birth liars have the guts to say what they really want, which is to give the absurd notion of “fetal personhood” force of law and use it to control every woman who ovulates, the downstream consequences in terms of personal freedom and the ability to deliver or receive standard medical care be damned. In the pre-Dobbs world, Dannenfelser and Pence would have denounced as a baby killer any Repub who proposed a 15-week ban.
Meanwhile, the campaign mouthpiece for DeSantis used the Times coverage of the abortion issue to take a whack at Trump, and liar and equivocator Mike Pence lied and equivocated some more:
A spokesman for Mr. DeSantis, Andrew Romeo, responded to Mr. Trump’s attack by criticizing the former president for suggesting he could negotiate with Democrats on abortion, adding that the “disastrous results of Donald Trump compromising with Democrats” while he was president included “$7 trillion in new debt” and “an unfinished border wall.”
Former Vice President Mike Pence, a strict social conservative who has run to the right of everyone in the Republican presidential field on the abortion issue, cast his former running mate’s comments in stark moral terms.
“Donald Trump continues to walk away from the pro-life legacy of our administration,” Mr. Pence said in a statement Sunday morning. “There’s no negotiating when it comes to the life of the unborn. We will not rest, we will not relent, until the sanctity of life is restored to the center of American law in every state in the nation.”
To sum up, this issue isn’t going away for Repubs. In addition to the House loonies attaching forced-birth provisions to every bill in that chamber and Senator Potato Head of Alabama continuing to hold the U.S. military command structure hostage to his radical forced-birth agenda in the other, it looks like Trump and the Not-Trumps in the primary will keep the issue on the front burner through an endless slap-fight among themselves. That’s encouraging!
Open thread.
narya
As others here have noted in various threads, I think the best strategy for us is to not engage in these stupid “number of weeks” conversations. Every single one of the proposed bans is essentially inserting a bunch of politicians into a conversation that should be between the pregnant person and their doctor–focus on that intrusion, and on the instances wherein a person or family who is already facing a wrenching situation is forced to wait for the best care because said politicians think they know better.
Alison Rose
I fully believe TIFG doesn’t give a single shit about abortion and is only claiming to give a shit about “a number of weeks” and whatever because he has to for the voters.
The phrase “fetal personhood” makes me want to claw my face off. Not many things are actually a zero-sum game, but this is, because the more “personhood” you give to the fetus, the less you recognize in the actual person carrying it.
MattF
I’m pleased to watch the acrobatic feat of everyone throwing everyone under the bus.
Villago Delenda Est
The Federalist Society needs to be annihilated.
...now I try to be amused
@MattF:
E pluribus… bus?
Suzanne
Of course they can’t say the truth. LAWL.
cain
Meanwhile – rightwingwatch.org/post/religious-right-leaders-demand-next-gop-scotus-nominees-meet-biblical-worldv…
So yeah, the right wingers are looking to make the court even more extreme. We’re heading for a religious war against well everyone I guess.
Kelly
My hopefully one term OR5 Republican rep is performing a delicate interpretative dance telling a story that Dobbs doesn’t matter in Oregon. Each state can manage as it’s citizens think best. I think Dobbs will matter a lot.
trollhattan
Was 98% convinced Trump’s clownish monster persona would torpedo his chances in 2016 and force the Republican Party to do a complete ctrl+alt+del.
And then the election happened.
Not convinced Dobbs carries the day next year but will be ecstatic if I’m wrong. America’s pretty enamored with misogyny, and forced birth is all that.
p.a.
@cain: They’ll turn on each other if they’re victorious against “the other”.
I told a bible-thumping relative, wine drinker, that his style bigotry would be visited on him once I’m gone if the no-alcohol party outnumbers his by 1.
HumboldtBlue
Congresswoman Summer Lee brings the receipts.
eversor
@trollhattan:
America still is a Christian nation that mostly doesn’t have a hostile view to it. In a few decades that’s going to change completely. And then things will change.
Scout211
The 19th News released a poll that should be helpful to Dems on this issue.
. . .
. . .
. . .
piratedan
I agree with the thought that the number of weeks issue is a distraction, women either have agency over their bodies or they don’t. period.
what appears to be just as fragile is the GOP understanding of an agreement. Speaker McCarthy has an agreement with the 46 Administration on governmental funding. How about a better discussion of that issue for a looming Government shutdown. How is THIS fungible all of a sudden. Does McCarthy round up 10 GOP votes and ask the Dems to help to keep the government running? If McCarthy’s word meant anything and we’re supposed to believe that those chosen to lead are supposed to honor their agreements.
Alison Rose
(Can I make a plea, now that our resident “let’s imprison or slaughter all the Christians to solve our problems” troll has arrived with today’s dessert menu — don’t engage. Don’t give their bullshit the respect of even a disagreeing response. My teachers always used to tell me to ignore the boys who teased me and they would stop. It didn’t usually work, but maybe it will here, and this hateful, pathetic little loser will get bored and go eat more paint chips or whatever the fuck they do to get the way they are.)
frosty
@Alison Rose: I have a small three-layer cake (torte?) on the dessert menu. Not as nice as the cheesecake with strawberries in the last thread. But it’ll do.
All hail Cleek!!
HinTN
@…now I try to be amused:
Soprano2
@Suzanne: Yep, this is exactly what they want.
ETA – I read this story today and it made me so sad. These people have created a world where people are afraid everyone is carrying a firearm, then they shoot people who aren’t doing anything wrong because of the world they have created.
Washington man fatally shot while trying to help deer cross the road
cain
@Scout211: We talked about Iran in the previous post – there is an example of a country that by far the Iranians are more liberal than most other places in the ME yet has a very conservative government.
If people want to keep govt away from their business – they need to repudiate GOP hard. Eventually, govt will be getting into your business in everything – if you let them in on women’s business it won’t be long when women’s business becomes all business.
eversor
@cain:
Iran has that because of it’s religion. The US is going their because of our religion. There’s no way about that with out taking on religion. So you are either going to take on religion or you have lost the fight.
JML
@Alison Rose: yeah, it’s never been an issue he cared about. of course, he doesn’t really care about any of the actual issues: TFG only sees issues as a means to collect power. He doesn’t care about the outcomes for the masses, because he always (and generally correctly) assumes that he can always get the result he needs for himself through his wealth and connections, regardless of what the law is.
It’s not like rich people didn’t have abortions when it was illegal in this country: they just didn’t talk about it and sent the girl with “the problem” out of state or out of the country to “deal with it”. Which is why these rich slimeballs were always ok with cozying up to the extremists on the issue: they knew it would never impact them personally. Except now, it impacts their ability to get elected, because the rest of the country ain’t down with the extremist positions on abortion that dominate the GOP.
zhena gogolia
@Alison Rose: I’ve been doing this for weeks!!!
twbrandt
@Soprano2: That’s an awful story.
Alison Rose
@JML: Remember at some point, some interviewer asked him if he would let Caitlyn Jenner use the women’s bathroom at his club or whatever, and he said yes? And some dodos were like “oh wow look he’s so accepting of trans people” instead of what was actually happening, which was that he couldn’t possibly give a single fuck about trans people or where or how they pee. The idea of caring about anyone or anything except himself and his money is utterly foreign to him.
...now I try to be amused
@HinTN: Nice!
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: For a while, I understood people wanting to push back, but it’s clear this person is twisted and no amount of argument is going to change that.
Scott
The interviewers need to be stubborn and their producers need to back them up. You can always edit later. Q: Do you believe life begins at conception? A: blah, blah, blah. Q: Do you believe life begins at conception? Yes or No. A: blah, blah. Q: Do you believe life begins at conception? Yes or No. And have the courage of your question and keep it up regardless of the producer whispering in your ear. It is better television when the interviewee throws a fit.
Elizabelle
I hope the abortion issue might be enough to pull Susanna Gibson (internet adult star) over the line. It might be. She’s in a very competitive, newly drawn district, and I think there is a lot of buyer’s remorse over Youngkin (even while national media describes him as “popular” and a “rising star”).
Her opponent described himself as prolife at a recent private-ish gathering. That was widely reported.
Mr. Bemused Senior
I think you are on to something here. If you can convince the money men there’s hope of real reporting.
cain
@eversor:
We should stick to battles we can actually win.
Scout211
Yes. And since fighting against politicians interfering in our personal healthcare decisions was fairly successful during the pandemic for them, it should be difficult for the GOP politicians to reverse that course when it comes to family planning decisions and trans healthcare. Their constant protests and shouts of “Hands off my healthcare” did not have exceptions at the time. It doesn’t look like voters are willing to accept their inference now, just like they resisted the government interference in their healthcare choices during the pandemic.
Edited for clarity
eversor
@cain:
You cannot win a battle if you let your enemy keep their weapon and then constantly defend it as not a weapon.
Suzanne
@Soprano2: Oh, the armed society is absolutely a low-trust society. I used to do a lot of helpful things that I no longer do, because I’m scared the person has a gun. Or that someone watching has a gun.
Jager
@Alison Rose:
I’m waiting for an Evangelical candidate, who after discussions with Evangelical leaders and days and nights of personal conversations with his GAWD, develops the balls to stand up and say “No more fucking for fun!!!!” only to one-upped by a Mike Pence type saying, “Death to the seed spillers!
JaySinWA
@Soprano2: My reading between the lines is that this was not about fear of his victim being armed so much as anger. The story the shooter tells doesn’t make a lot of sense. He claims he shot because this guy was shouting and hitting cars ahead of him. The window was already rolled down, he decided he was going to use his gun to put his victim in his place at best or put him down at worst.
Both sides of the story are weird and incomplete.
lowtechcyclist
@Alison Rose:
I can understand why there could be restrictions on abortion after the point of viability outside the womb. But before that point, restrictions are all about ‘fetal personhood’ or other specious religion-based justifications for limiting abortion.
I just don’t understand how such restrictions don’t all constitute establishment of religion, which is prohibited by the First Amendment. I can’t understand why that isn’t a slam-dunk legal argument against all such restrictions.
FelonyGovt
@Scout211: Oh, but I think many of the “hands off my healthcare” during the pandemic people are perfectly happy restricting others’ healthcare when it comes to abortion.
The issue still has resonance, but with a different set of people.
Chetan Murthy
@narya: Nor for that matter, on stupid “exceptions” conversations. They’re all in bad faith anyway!
[or as some wise person once put it: the “reasonable compromise” was Roe v. Wade!]
HumboldtBlue
@Soprano2:
A 78-year-old Florida man shot and killed his 42-year-old neighbor because he was trimming bushes along the property line.
Tony Jay
@Alison Rose:
It’s okay. I’ve employed a revolving team of sweet Christian children to pray for him in shifts, as they did in the Old Times for Kings, Bishops and popular jouster’s mounts.
Come the Rapture he can try that shit on a small cloud.
Chetan Murthy
@Alison Rose: Kamil Galeev has thoughts on this: nitter.net/kamilkazani/status/1703451976028041687#m
Richard Hanania [spit] says:
Kamil responds:
narya
@Chetan Murthy: Agreed! The whole “exceptions” thing is a way to pry into women’s lives and allow someone to determine if she has the right to control her body–to determine if she “deserves” the healthcare she wants/needs, or if she’s a slutty-mc-slut-slut who has to Pay The Price. It’s yet another way of saying that women have no agency.
Trivia Man
I have seen several comparisons to the Fugitive Slave Act and state attempts to regulate travel by potentially pregnant women. The comparison is spot on IMHO and I hope that volume continues to amplify.
JaySinWA
@HumboldtBlue: Apparently this was a ‘get off my lawn’ conflict. Both guys ‘stood their ground’.
Anger management fails again.
https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/deleon-springs-man-78-shoots-kills-florida-neighbor-who-was-trimming-trees-deputie
ETA these days when someone threatens to shoot you, you should take it seriously. Less likely to be an empty threat than it was.
H.E.Wolf
@lowtechcyclist: “I can understand why there could be restrictions on abortion after the point of viability outside the womb. ”
Reasons for an abortion after the point of viability (variously defined; and comprising a tiny percentage of abortions, no matter how that point is defined) include death of the mother if the pregnancy continues; severe fetal abnormalities incompatible with life; experiencing domestic violence (one of the major causes of death for pregnant women is murder by partner); drug use; difficulties in getting access to care.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy
tl;dr: What narya said in Comment #1.
raven
@Alison Rose: On Firedog Lake we would just say “scrolllllllll”!
NotMax
@Tony Jay
Even filmed them!
:)
NotMax
@JaySinWA
Branch Floridians.
//
Chetan Murthy
@H.E.Wolf:
And as others have pointed out, when the fetus is viable[1] outside th womb, and can be removed alive without hurting the mother, to not do so is called *murder*, not *late-term abortion*. And there are laws already on the books that cover that crime. Otherwise, it’s a private matter between a gestating woman and her doctor.
[1] ETA: with the usual meaning of “viable”, being “will live for an indefinite period of time”
Scout211
Sure. But I would argue that the sheer number of people who would be affected and are affected by these laws banning pregnancy termination and trans healthcare will affect the voting numbers. Maybe just the “undecided” voters but maybe some non-MAGA Republicans.
According to that new poll, even Republican voters don’t trust the government and politicians interfering in their private family planning decisions an I would guess that this includes some of the people who resisted masking in public and taking the COVID vaccinations.
At least I hope so.
Chetan Murthy
@Scout211:
Every time Dobbs comes up, I have two thoughts:
before Dobbs, I was pretty worried (close to being sure) that our country was going down in 2024
it’s still gonna be a close-run thing, but the anger of American women is the only thing I can see that will save our country. The only thing.
Shorter: “so say we all”
Kay
How far is she willing to go “to save children”.
Kay
How far is she willing to go “to save children”.
Kay
Every accusation is a confession.
Chetan Murthy
@Kay: Thank you for this. I’ll try to remember this, for the next time a taxi driver starts to tell me about this movie and about all the pedophiles. [yes, that actually happened. He wasn’t as brown as me, but pretty close, and all I could think was “you sweet deluded fool: they’ll come for you and your children too”]
H.E.Wolf
There are ways to help the Republicans step on this rake – among them, getting out the Democratic (and pro-reproductive-freedom) vote.
PostcardsToVoters.org volunteers (the group I know best; there are other excellent groups doing similar work) are currently writing to Democratic voters in Ohio to remind them to vote YES for the pro-choice ballot issue on the November 2023 ballot. Writers can request 4 or more addresses at a time, with 3 days in which to write and mail them, and a set of 3 sentences pre-chosen by the campaign.
To sign up: 1. Text JOIN to Abby The Address Bot at 484-275-2229 [note: if the text bot is down, use email option below]
OR
2. Email us at [email protected]
It’s a far better use of our time than debating people who are a few bubbles off plumb. :-) And if enough of us jackals get moving on this, WaterGirl might create a postcard & music thread!
Mousebumples
@H.E.Wolf: thanks for writing postcards! I’m hopeful Postcards to Voters will have Virginia addresses at some point as well!
H.E.Wolf
@Chetan Murthy:
Yes; to which I alluded in my final sentence. Let me see if I can link to narya’s comment at #1…
@narya:
Tony Jay
@NotMax:
Ha! I thought it was going to be this set of eldritch enfant terribles.
Ocotillo
Tuberville’s hold is in the news but I don’t think people are buying into it is hurting the military preparedness. Nothing is visibly falling apart, bases aren’t closing, we are not laying military people off. It’s dragging out as long as it has because only the people close to the matter are feeling the impact. Add to that normies look at it rationalize “well, Dems control the senate, they should be able to do something about it if it was really important.”
WaterGirl
@frosty: I worked hard at finding really good images for the pie filter, so it’s nice to see them being appreciated!
Ocotillo
@JaySinWA: Since civility is out the window, oh if only Rand Paul’s neighbor………..
H.E.Wolf
@Mousebumples:”I’m hopeful Postcards to Voters will have Virginia addresses at some point as well!”
Me too! I will be jumpin’ on that, when they do. :)
Chetan Murthy
@WaterGirl: WaterGirl, they are definitely appreciated, and even more definitely useful!
Also: this troll sometimes (sometimes! even a stopped clock ….) posts useful or interesting content. But since too often their comments are ….. just trolling, I usually never know about it. That might give them some pause, but one supposes that it won’t … ah, well.
H.E.Wolf
[Wrenching myself away from the computer because I have 5 postcards to write for tomorrow’s mail pick-up…and I’m slooooow.]
WaterGirl
@H.E.Wolf: This was a great comment, glad you made it.
Kay
@Chetan Murthy:
The freaks approached my youngest son at a Lake Michigan resort town this past summer to give him a free ticket to the movie. He’s 20 so fully capable of dealing with Right wing religious fanatics but still – I hope they weren’t trying to get him into what looks like a sex trafficking ring to me.
He told me they were “Mormons” – I didn’t question how he knew that because he dated a Mormon girl in high school so he’s like our family expert on all things Mormon :)
I wish they’d keep these groomer riff raff off the boardwalk. We want to be left alone.
Trivia Man
Another question that absolutely must be asked (if they ever take questions!) is: Will your law allow a legal termination of an ectopic pregnancy?
I am not a doctor, in my view that isn’t an abortion because there is 0% chance it will survive to become a living person. I have heard it explicitly addressed by one forced birth advocate – IIRC an Ohio legislator. He explicitly announced that “all you gotta do is implant it in the uterus and it will be fine. no exception.”
Simple question with an actual answer. If I’m mistaken please correct me.
Gretchen
Yes, we should stay out of the number of weeks discussion and just leave it to women and their doctors. People hear that a 21 weeker once survived and think all fetuses are viable then. Various complications result in non-viability much later, for many different reasons that the average legislator doesn’t understand. There’s no way to write all the exceptions to cover everything. Also, complications can move quickly, leaving no time for docs to negotiate with lawyers. They keep saying that women get due-date abortions of healthy babies, and interviewers never point out how absurd that claim is.
randy khan
@narya:
Absolutely. There’s a principle here, and the polling bears out that there’s no benefit to caving.
And, besides, the real point is that they’re lying about it anyway. That national 15-week ban is a ceiling, not a floor – all the worse state bans stay in place and states can continue to pass more restrictive laws. Not to mention that if the Republicans get control of Congress and the Presidency, the pressure on them to pass a national ban more along the lines of the 6-week bans (which are, in practice, total bans) from the forced birth crowd will be enormous, and they certainly will cave.
Chetan Murthy
@Trivia Man: I forget where I read (and which state it was about) that in some state, doctors have literally (literally!) petitioned the state legislature to pass a law making absolutely crystal-clear the situations under which doctors are free to
provide abortions abortions abortions to the shameless hussiesprovide medical terminations without risking penalties (including prison). Because right now in that state, even for ectopic (and other nonviable) pregnancies, a doctor performs the procedure and only then goes on trial and is judged on whether they’re guilty or innocent.It’s all madness, and the doctors made that clear. Gosh I’m just on pins and needles waiting for the lege to act on this
ETA: Ah, it was TN: tennesseelookout.com/briefs/in-open-letter-700-tennessee-healthcare-providers-call-on-legislature-to…
Scout211
IMHO, I think we should always use the phrase “pregnancy termination” instead of abortion and also “family planning decisions.” Pregnancy termination as a general descriptor encompasses any an all ways a pregnancy is ended. If we differentiate between pregnancy terminations for ectopic pregnancies and all of those terms that the politicians are using like “life of the child” or “life of the mother” we are playing a defensive game. They are the ones adding all of the exceptions with no medical knowledge or expertise. I think we should just continue to demand all families have a right to make personal family planning decisions for themselves, with the help of their physicians. No politicians should ever decide who can and cannot make family planning decisions, one of of which may be pregnancy termination.
edited for clarity
randy khan
@JML:
And for that reason he will sign whatever a Republican Congress puts on his desk.
JWR
@lowtechcyclist:
Religion aside, I have a crazy idea… Reinstate Roe, (some) problems solved!
lowtechcyclist
@Suzanne:
Remember how an armed society was supposed to be a polite society? (Insert bitter laughter here.) Not that we ever expected it to be the case, and this is my surprised face that they’ve never admitted they were wrong about that.
It’s a shame the Second Amendment can’t simply be repealed. Guns are a fucking plague in this country.
Gretchen
I’ve also seen reporting that people who want to ban abortion think that a necessary abortion, like for nonviable pregnancy or threat to the mother, isn’t really an abortion, so laws forbidding abortions don’t forbid these cases. Of course that’s not how law works, but they will earnestly argue that these aren’t forbidden so there’s no problem.
cain
@eversor: In this case, it’s not religion – it’s our own human nature and trauma. Even atheists can act like assholes driven by whatever trauma. Being flawed is built into every species on this planet. We can only struggle against our nature and trauma and be better.
lowtechcyclist
@H.E.Wolf:
I’m ignoring all this – the point was to clear out any issues that might be debatable in a non-religious manner in order to isolate the issue of restrictions that seemingly have to be religion based.
So take this and argue with someone else. It’s not a matter of whether I agree or disagree with you. It’s that my clear intent was to make a completely different point.
Anyway
@Suzanne:
I work with a bunch of gun
nutsfans and every one of them parrots “an armed society is a polite society”. They are mostly reasonable and sane on other topics but hopeless on this. I don’t bother joining the coffee machine convos…Ksmiami
@Trivia Man: ectopic pregnancy is non viable and leads to maternal death. No the embryo cannot be reimplanted. The forced birthers are fucking monsters.
geg6
@Alison Rose:
I do not see that he’s said anything offensive here as far as I’ve read (#16). And I agree that Christianity is not going to be dominant in, if not my lifetime then my nieces’ lifetimes. Both were brought up in the church and both have left because they consider formal Christianity to be garbage. I can’t say I totally disagree. I mostly like the teachings of the philosopher, Jesus of Nazareth, but you can keep the religion that sprang up in his wake. Personally, I consider all religions to be cults.
Chetan Murthy
@geg6: this particular troll has a long history here, and in that context, #20 is trolling. Personally, I agree with you, and to some extent agree with the troll. Thing is, I don’t think that’s the relevant bit. Someone wise once wrote:
I feel like the troll needs to hear “read the room, my dude.” Ah, well.
geg6
@Chetan Murthy: I know who he is and why certain people get ridiculously butt hurt when he talks about religion, but I’m sorry, if your religion can’t take some critics, it doesn’t say much for it.Does he take it too far sometimes? Perhaps. Obviously, not every issue is based on religion. But a lot of the bullshit we deal with today in this country is, in one way, shape or form, due to religionists, especially Christianists.
Gretchen
@Trivia Man: people use that view that if it won’t become a living person it’s not an abortion to justify no-exceptions laws. That’s not how laws work, though. Abortion is deliberately ending a pregnancy, for any and all reasons. Intentions don’t matter.
Leto
I posted this in the morning thread but re-upping it for awareness:
The war on women who use abortion pills takes a terrifying new turn; Researchers in Poland have developed tests that can detect if a woman has taken mifepristone. It’s a chilling development
You can guaran-GD-tee that conservatives/christofascists will do everything they can to bring this shit to the States to use. They’ll bypass the FDA, just like they did when they created their lethal injection cocktails after the EU stopped selling those drugs to us.
Suzanne
@Kay:
They were probably in white shirt, black ties, with bike helmets, with name tags set in Baker Signet.
Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has an official font. Also a mall.
Suzanne
Yeah, I’m definitely polite to people who I think will kill me if given the opportunity. But, for all of the complaints about societal breakdown…. they never seem to grasp that I won’t lend them a cup of sugar, let my kids hang out with theirs, I certainly won’t help them with a flat tire or dead car battery. And what happens if they truly fall on hard times and need help? I won’t be giving it. I’m too afraid of crazy people.
They got politeness, for sure, but it cost them a lot.
sdhays
I feel like this point, while true, has been used to obscure the fact that abortion is just basic healthcare if you have a uterus. This idea of abortion simply being a way to deal with an inconvenience is a fundamental problem. Women in rich families can die on their private jets to France while hemorrhaging blood the same as poor women can bleed out in their cars in the ER parking lot.
I have no doubt that there are plenty of men of means (and women with their heads in the sand) who think that it won’t be a problem for anyone they know, but medical complications don’t just hit poor people.
Alison Rose
@geg6: First off, it’s not my religion, I’m Jewish. Secondly, to dismiss the history of this person’s comments as just “criticism” is laughably obtuse. They constantly call for the complete eradication of the entirety of Christianity. They refuse to acknowledge that “Christian” does not automatically equal “right-wing evangelical fundamentalist who wants to turn the US into a theocracy”. They ignore any comments pointing out Christian groups that, for example, support and fight for abortion rights and birth control and queer rights, etc etc. They have made it clear they think the only solution is to essentially make it illegal to be Christian, to remove the religion as a whole from society. Which would mean either imprisoning or killing people who are Christians.
If that is just “criticism” to you, then you are no better than they are, and both of you are in need of self-examination.
If their comments were made about any other religion — if they said Jews were globalist demon-fuckers who control the government or that every Muslim is a terrorist-in-waiting or whatever — I’m guessing more people here would have an issue with that. Just because Christians are the dominant religion does not mean it is okay to want to target them with extermination. I really cannot believe that has to be said, here of all places.
Further, they rarely contribute anything beyond just I HATE CHRISTIANS ARGLE BARGLE and they derail many threads with their hateful, juvenile, disgusting bullshit. I pied them because it became clear that no one here is going to actually talk to them privately and tell them calling for mass murder is not okay. But it’s annoying to me how many people continue to engage with them, turning comment threads into a fucking dessert cart.
They are a horrible person, and it is baffling to me how many people are okay with that.
Suzanne
@sdhays: Agree with you on this.
Also, I am annoyed by the whole line of argument about how these anti-choice assholes “know their own wives/daughters can go out of state or out of the country to get an abortion”. That isn’t how these assholes think. (It’s true, but that’s not how they’re thinking about it.)
Part of the toxicity of right-wing religious psychosis is training yourself to *not think about things that are complicated or upsetting*. Literally, just stop thinking about them. Pretend they are not real. Convince yourself that they are not real. See no evil! Hear no evil!
Ten-year-olds raped by their fathers? NOT REAL! Terrible fetal anomalies? NOT REAL! I guarantee you that 95% of evangelicals heard Democrats warning about girls being raped by their fathers and thought we were making it up to make them feel bad.
Chetan Murthy
@Suzanne:
Right now I’m reading a book by Keir Giles titled Moscow Rules: What Drives Russia to Confront the West
and I feel all these echoes of what you wrote, in his description of Russia and Russians’ relationship with history, facts, and *truth*. Specifically, in parts II, III. Over and over I’ve found myself thinking “geez, that’s pretty much what the Reichwing has done in America.” Over and over. The idea that so much of what we see in right-wing America resembles so much the workings of a totalitarian state (that has been such for centuries) is pretty frightening.
The book is pretty good, I think. It really explains how and why what we see today in Russia is just the current manifestation of a continuous thru-line back to the Czars — going back centuries.
sdhays
@Chetan Murthy: It happened to me while I was getting my teeth cleaned! I hadn’t heard of the movie at the point, and the lady was an immigrant from Spain. It sounded sketchy, and when I looked it up later, yup. Major red flags.
JML
@sdhays: i don’t disagree, but there’s a pretty high level of “that only applies to masses” attitude among the wealthy that very much informs TFG’s…reactions? (I have trouble saying “thinking” since it’s clear that he rarely thinks about anything, just blurts stuff out)
sdhays
@Suzanne:
You’re more charitable to them than I. These are people who rejoice in the idea that the world is depraved – that’s how they’re better than everyone else. They just don’t care about the girl. They might pity her, but “Christ died on the Cross” or something and life’s tough. For other people.
frosty
@WaterGirl: All hail WaterGirl!!
Bill Arnold
@Chetan Murthy:
Sounds interesting. There is also a spying/tradecraft Moscow Rules, mostly unrelated:
Here are the Moscow Rules are given as:
These rules are somewhat obsolete; they do not defend well against many high-tech methods.
Dan B
@Alison Rose: Aiming vitriol at the wrong target is unappealing and unpersuasive. The religious right are pawns. They are pawns of their leaders and of the right wing billionaires who pull their strings. Right wing Christians were not very interested in abortion and other social issues until the 60’s and it ramped up when Fox and think tanks went full tilt propaganda. It’s reaching a fever pitch and may produce a shift in government that is authoritarian. Evangelicals used to preach the Sermon on the Mount. Now they call it socialist lies. What produced this massive realignment with the far right?
frosty
@Chetan Murthy: I toggle the troll’s first comment to check for the “sometimes”. Like you said, it happens, maybe 1/5 of the time.
Miss Bianca
@Scott: Life can “begin at conception” – I’m not sure what egging someone on to answer this question does.
Dan B
@lowtechcyclist: The religious right argument against abortion is that a fetus is “pure”. Once born they have sinned and are not pure. It’s the same lust for “purity” that causes them to reel in horror that LGBT+ people and foreigners are allowed to exist. Purity will surely be sullied! It’s not logical that the unpure will actually accomplish this but huge inroads have been made if 21% of young people no longer identify as straight.
eversor
@Alison Rose:
I was Jewish. Till we had to convert to fit in. We only only did that because half of my family was exterminated by the bible crowd. So spare me that.
eversor
@Dan B:
WRONG! They are in charge. Pro Putin, came from Christianity. Pro Orban, came from Christianity. All this abortion, lgbtq, trans, and more came from Christianity. Christians are dragging the GOP and FOX NEWS there. Shit Rod Dreher dragged FOX and Tucker to Orban.
You can dodge this all you want but it won’t change the reality. Nor will it remove the Christian battle flags, crosses, and more, from Jan 6. Young generations see this and realize what is the main issue we face. See the drop in religion. Christianity is going away.
MisterDancer
When I first starting working Reproductive Rights, I was egotistical enough to think that understanding the enemy was what “we” needed. I spent years reading all kinds of shit Forced Abortion stuff. trying to understand why they did what they did. I’m glad I didn’t have a platform Back Then, ’cause I would have mansplained the hell out of shit.
It wasn’t until a long car ride with a friend who was a True Believer, years later, that I got it. It’s all BS. It’s only a stand with them for as long as it’s useful, and then they’ll shift the entire movement if they can. It’s what they are doing right now, casting around for something to avoid having to keep the promise of making Abortion go away…until they can convince America it’s the right thing to do.
As a result: Chasing our tail to find the perfect “message,” the perfect way to reach Americans is foolhardy. We stand our ground in Empathy, in Scientific Truths, in Building Community. Those are the North Stars for this movement, and trying to play the same game as the Right only will result in confusion and tears and bad political takes.
Shalimar
As a trained and certified legal mediator, Trump saying he is like a mediator in anything at all is seriously offensive. Asshole has never mediated a dispute in his life. He’s always the most obnoxious party.
Matt McIrvin
@Dan B: But if you die pure, you automatically go to Heaven, whereas if it’s after you’re capable of sin, you might be damned for all eternity. So shouldn’t we abort everyone for their own good?
Matt McIrvin
@geg6:
He doesn’t just criticize religion, he insists that everyone of good will must support the total eradication of Christianity. I’m not a Christian and am not particularly concerned that the fraction of Christians in our culture is declining, but eradicating it entirely would require gross violations of human rights and the Constitution, and probably mass murder one way or another, and I’m not in favor of that.
DonnaK
Where I live in Upstate NY registered Democrats significantly outnumber Republicans, and Democrats consistently outvote GOPers in presidential elections. Nevertheless, we can’t seem to elect Democrats to Congress and Republicans dominate local government. They are also making aggressive bids to take over school boards, fortunately with limited success so far against candidates we have fielded.We are belatedly starting to address this problem by recruiting candidates on all levels. I’m planning on running for my local village board. Of course, we are not getting nearly enough help from our inept state party under the useless Jay Jacobs, and we’re having a great deal of difficulty getting rid of him.
MisterDancer
Very true. I finally took the advice and pied him because he’s toxic. And that’s after I spent a ton of time explaining things, with citations and quotes in many cases.
I’ve studied Islam at some length. And as much as I fight against Islamophobia and hate, I’m not ignorant of how many seek to use Islam to do many of the same things the shitty side of Christianity pulls. Nor do I look at, say, what little I know of the situation in current day India and think those folx are going to be wise stewards of a government, if you could just get the Christians out.
I also know, because I did the research, that many of those impulses predate any Colonist influence. And that the work to understand that line is complex and requires deep nuance and care for the affected cultures.
All that to say that this poster’s ideas are not just noxious, not just immoral, but they utterly break on even the mildest considerations of history, on awareness of the world beyond the US and Europe.
Jeffro
Here’s everything I posted at 9 this morning about it all:
<<The majority is with us on reproductive rights…and LOOK what just dropped in our lap (ETA: here’s a good article re: what you and Baud were talking about)
trump says DeSantis’ abortion ban is wrong(!!!)
He knows. He KNOWS what the rest of the GOP doesn’t: Dobbs is going to keep killing them electorally, at least until they learn to shut up about it and let the media finesse it for them, a la Youngkin.
I do love this part, though:
yessssss..yes, you consummate deal-maker, you! You’re going to be able to ‘cut a deal’ that makes the fundies AND normal Americans happy. LOL
So much to run on here, Dems! >>
11 hours later – still true! =)
Tony G
@Alison Rose: My own belief is that Trump cares about ANY political issue (abortion, that goddamn wall, anything) about as much as he cared about real estate development when he pretended to be a successful businessman in New York City decades ago — that is, not at all. It has always been about the grift for him. Anything else that he pretends to care about has always been just a means to the end of grabbing money for himself and massaging his fragile ego.
The Kropenhagen Interpretation
I’m not so sure he believes that. If he had an opportunity post-Dobbs and Republicans put that ban on his desk, I firmly believe he would have signed it and touted it as his own idea and own doing.
But he lives by ABD. Always be diminishing. I would like to believe he thinks that’s the proper progression of the alphabet but, even for Trump, that’s a stretch.
Villago Delenda Est
@raven: To borrow from Paul Simon in “Ace in the Hole”: scroll on scroll on
Villago Delenda Est
William Saletan firmly believed this in the last two decades of the 20th Century.
StringOnAStick
@Trivia Man: That’s what was so crazy about that legislator claiming you just implant the ectopic fertilized egg into the uterus, it’s never been done and according to OB GYN ‘s, can’t be done.
Paul in KY
@JaySinWA: If the shot dude was actually on the old man’s property, that was sort of reckless, IMO. Maybe he thought he was still on his property?
Paul in KY
@Matt McIrvin: Massive re-education camps at a minimum.
Chris T.
@Anyway:
But it’s perfectly logical: an armed society kills everyone, and a dead society is a polite society. Nothing is so polite as a graveyard! So an armed society is a dead and polite society!
Personally I prefer the living and somewhat rude society, but that’s the choice here.