We’ve had a lot of discussion in the comments over the past couple of weeks about not just what is going on with the disaster response, emergency management, and/or humanitarian assistance missions in Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands, but also what exactly the US military’s role is. The US military is currently involved in assisting with all three components of the response: disaster response, emergency management, and humanitarian assistance. They are specifically doing so through what is called Defense Support of Civil Authorities, which is abbreviated as DSCA and pronounced as disca.
Defense Support of Civil Authorities is defined in Joint Publication 3-28/Defense Support of Civil Authorities:
Defense support of civil authorities (DSCA) is support provided by federal military forces, Department of Defense (DOD) civilians, DOD contract personnel, DOD component assets, and National Guard (NG) forces (when the Secretary of Defense [SecDef], in coordination with the governors of the affected states, elects and requests to use those forces in Title 32, United States Code, status or when federalized) in response to requests for assistance from civil authorities for domestic emergencies, law enforcement support, and other domestic activities, or from qualifying entities for special events.
DSCA in the US presents a unique challenge based on the history of the country and the interaction of the federal, state, local, territorial, and tribal governments and private and nonprofit organizations. These relationships establish the multiple layers and mutually reinforcing structures throughout the state and territorial governments for interaction based on the US Constitution, as well as on common law and traditional relationships.
US Army North has been mobilized as the Joint Land Force Component Command (JFLCC) to coordinate the US military response. This includes Task Force 51*, which is contingency command post. Specifically:
TF-51 is Army North’s contingency command post and conducts Defense Support of Civil Authority (DSCA), homeland defense and theater security cooperation in order to promote the defense and security of the United States
There are also US Army Corps of Engineers, US Army Civil Affairs, and US Army National Guard – primarily from the Puerto Rico National Guard, as well as US Marine Corps personnel from the Kearsarge Amphibious Ready Group/26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (USS Kearsarge, USS Arlington, and USS Oak Hill) plussed up with USS Wasp, US Coast Guard Sailors, and the USNS Comfort on site assisting. There are also civilian personnel from a variety of US government civilian agencies.
The Commanding General of US Army North is not actually in charge of the response. Rather a FEMA executive on site is responsible. Unfortunately everyone defaults to “the US military is there, there’s a 3 star commander on site, the US military is in charge”. This is not actually the case. Because of how the news media has covered things since 9-11 everyone expects the military not only to perform, but to work miracles. This is largely a result of the US military being the only US governmental institution that is viewed positively by a majority of Americans. Whether the result of good public relations, the concerted effort not to treat uniformed personnel returning from Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom the popular perception about the way returning Vietnam veterans were treated**, or a combination of the two, there is a pervasive belief among elected and appointed officials, as well as the US citizenry that the US military can do anything and everything. This combined with the significant divide that has grown between the All Volunteer Force and the rest of Americans, as well as a general lack of knowledge and understanding about what the US military does and does not do, can and cannot do, all contributes to the default belief that if the US military has responded, then it is in charge. So if things aren’t going well, then someone in uniform must be screwing up.
It is important to remember that LTG Buchanan, the Commanding General of US Army North, is not the military governor of PR and that martial law hasn’t been declared. In this mission he and the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines under his command actually work for Michael Byrne, who is the Federal Coordinating Officer for Puerto Rico. While it is absolutely correct to question exactly what is going on with the response to the crises in Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands, it is important to remember who is running the show – FEMA – and who isn’t – the US military. Moreover, we don’t know what the Memorandum of Agreement is between FEMA/DHS and US Army North/Department of the Army that delineates who is doing what in regard to the Federal response to the crises in Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands as it is not posted anywhere public facing. Here’s an example of a Memorandum of Agreement between FEMA and the US Army Corps of Engineers from 2008 to give you an idea of what they look like. Here’s the manual for US military support to FEMA in these types of situations to give you some idea of how things should go.
That doesn’t make what we’re seeing in news reports and eye witness reports on social media about the inadequacy of the response okay. It just means that other than knowing that things aren’t going well, despite official pronouncements from various parties in DC, we don’t really know why they’re not going well. As in the root causes. Is the Memorandum of Agreement too limiting? Has too little resources, specifically actual food, water, clothing, medical supplies been queued up? Or delivered on site? Are there too few personnel on site when accounting for US civilian and military personnel? All of these are legitimate questions. But just because the US military on site gets all the press, and just because we’ve become conditioned to assume that they are both hyper-competent and always in charge wherever they are deployed, this is not always the case. And it is certainly not the case in the US response to the hurricane created crises in Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands.
* Full disclosure: the Chief of Staff for Task Force 51 is my former student from my last year (academic year 2014) assigned at USAWC. I have not been commissioned by him, anyone else at the Joint Force Land Component Command in Puerto Rico, or anyone else in the US military to write this post.
** There is a popular perception in the US that returning vets from Vietnam were treated poorly by the American public. In terms of actual history this isn’t exactly what happened, and there are a lot of nuances, but this is the popular perception.
WaterGirl
Thank you for this post, Adam.
Sandia Blanca
“Liked and shared.”
amygdala
Thank you, Adam. Much appreciated.
Adam L Silverman
@amygdala: Just to close the loop from last night. I heard back from my former student, who is also a good friend. They’ve got people tracking the social media posts on that are basically requests for assistance. They’re working it as fast as they can with the resources they have.
WaterGirl
I just thread the Vienna sausages and skittles thread and my blood is boiling! This truly is Trumps Katrina – or worse! And the fucking media is complicit in letting him get away with saying everything is peachy. They are gonna have to build some new rings in hell.
Adam L Silverman
@WaterGirl: I don’t think the media is letting him get away from it. The coverage I’ve seen on the 3 broadcast networks, CNN, MNBC, print and digital news platforms all hammer him and the response’s shortcomings hard. From what I can tell it isn’t being covered on Fox or talk radio or Breitbart. But everyone else can see the social media and the reporting from on the ground.
Bumper
So there’s a big group of Juicers at Elliott Bay Brewhouse in Burien ?. We’re missing one person though – where’s Yutsano? Hope to see you soon!
germy
I’m not sure what to make of this
Mary G
The military makes an excellent scapegoat because they don’t have a culture of arguing when someone, such as a commander-in-chief lies through his teeth about what is and isn’t happening. I am still shocked by the graphic in the tweet from FEMA that Anne Laurie posted on Friday:
That they are bragging about having installed 108 plastic sheeting roofs and installed 73 generators for critical infrastructure on an island with a population over 3 million weeks after the disaster tells me the blame lies squarely with FEMA. The military personnel are probably sitting around bored out of their minds waiting for someone to tell them what to do, which is mostly staged publicity for the cameras.
ETA: the last box in the graphic says debris cleanup began 10-13-17, or Thursday. It’s shocking to me.
smedley the uncertain
Adam, Thanks for the overview and analyses. I had thought this was the hierarchy and that civilian authority was at the top. It’s too bad that the military isn’t granted more autonomy; but then, that might steal some one’s thunder
Bobby Thomson
Vietnam veterans actually have been treated pretty well until Donald Trump.
burnspbesq
@germy:
some business person bet a bunch of the shareholders’ money that if they just showed up uninvited, eventually a contract would be forthcoming.
To which the appropriate response from every level of government is “GTFO.”
amygdala
@Adam L Silverman: I’m so relieved to know this, for that man and his family, and also that they’re being proactive. I’m grateful to you for going the extra mile. Thank you again.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So we’re Peter Princpleing our military because our elected leaders are to damn lazy to do their jobs. Lovely. This more and more seems like it will end in a military dictatorship.
sukabi
@germy: here’s a thought…what they should be doing is getting ample potable water brought in…or using one of our giant military ships to ramp up their desalination systems to start producing potable water for transport to the residents instead of bringing in a limited supply of bottled water that needs mercs to guard.
These Fucking people make me sick.
zhena gogolia
@Bumper:
He’s in the thread below looking for you.
chris
@Bumper: From previous thread:
efgoldman
@Mary G:
I think there’s a widely shared and largely correct assumption that the military does it’s non-shooting variety of tasks, especially disaster relief – with a minimal level of competence, and usually much more than that. They have the skills, equipment, and background that aren’t necessarily available to large civilian organizations.
So when it appears (perception being everything) that they’re being held back from their duites. people get upset.
chris
@zhena gogolia: Wonder if they’re in the same place?
amygdala
@Bumper: He clocked in a half hour ago in the prior post’s comments (#20), saying he couldn’t find anyone.
Fair Economist
@Mary G:
That’s quite the joke, only at the level of a (good) local volunteer organization.
Mike in Pasadena
Adam, What are you referring to when you mention avoiding how Viet Nam vets were treated? I thought I should ask first before tearing off on a misguided rant. I have first hand experience in the matter and I am interested in what you might be implying.
Mike in Pasadena
@Bobby Thomson: Well said.
Roger Moore
@Fair Economist:
Where’s Jimmy Carter when you need him?
Brachiator
OT. Austrian Election results
Kurz is 31 years old, making him one of the youngest leaders of a major nation.
We will see if Trump tweets anything on the rise of an anti-woman immigration party.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: That can’t be good.
Adam L Silverman
@amygdala: They’re doing what they can. I have no idea what the priority lists are or how they’re actually responding.
Brachiator
Nationalists are the kingmaker in New Zealand
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: They’re not waiting to be told what to do, but we don’t know what they’ve actually been authorized to do.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike in Pasadena: There is a popular perception in the US that returning vets from Vietnam were treated poorly by the American public. In terms of actual history this isn’t exactly what happened, and there are a lot of nuances, but this is the popular perception. I’ll add this as a footnote for clarity up top.
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman:
It’s sad that the popular perception has become an excuse for insisting on mindless displays of unquestioning patriotism.
And I’ve seen and heard people in the media insist that evil liberals spat on returning soldiers. It is a myth that will not die.
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator:
https://www.amazon.com/Spitting-Image-Memory-Legacy-Vietnam/dp/0814751474/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1508109197&sr=1-1&keywords=the+spitting+image+myth+memory+and+the+legacy+of+vietnam
seaboogie
I would like to do a guest post from NorCal, but am still too weary to assemble words. But CA has one of the most functional governments in the US, and we are coping well. Last report has 8,000-10,000 firefighters here, and that seems about right. Fire and LEO rides are from all over the Bay Area – it’s getting better, and far from over.
NotMax
“It’s not my fault.”
Han Solo
germy
Brachiator
@Mary G:
I’m not sure that there is any point in trying to assign blame. I don’t know that any organization could quickly deal with the magnitude of damage in these islands. Can we compare what is happening elsewhere?
germy
Ruckus
@seaboogie:
I’ve seen comments of why did they allow this to get this far out of control. Lots of people have a lot less respect and understanding for the power of nature when things aren’t going so good than they should.
And I agree that once assembled they seem to be doing a bang up job. And that once assembled part was done pretty damn fast all things considered. New fires have sprung up and old (old fires are ones over 3 days old, in my book) are being contained rather rapidly. Still a lot of property in jeopardy and quite possibly a lot more homes may be lost.
Tuna
The National Guard. What is that suppose to mean. The general in charge has a great record and education. All the training needed to be an administrator who keeps his division in budget and staffed. The GOP is going to want it out source disaster work to Prince.
Chyron HR
@Brachiator:
@Brachiator:
?????
I don’t understand. My true progressive betters told me over and over again that the terrible no good very bad Hillary Clinton was the only person in the world who could lose to the growing far right white nationalist movement. Was she also on the ballot in NZ and Austria?
NotMax
Adam, thought you might find this piece of some interest. And yes, I realize that stacking up differing operations and differing theaters of operation is not a zero sum exercise. A couple of snippets:
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman:
This book looks fascinating. The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam.
A couple of things from the editorial description stood out.
And I don’t know how one would unpack the psychological implications of this:
Why a woman?
Trollhattan
National Guard, CANG and am sure other military branches are involved in the California firefight and we’re damn happy to have them. Have seen more Blackhawks over the metroplex the last week than in my entire life
dmsilev
@Chyron HR: Clearly Hillary should have spent more time campaigning in Austria and New Zealand.
Brachiator
@Chyron HR: Our progressive betters are totally blind to the right-wing pushback happening in various countries. Makes their Clinton bashing all the more pathetic.
Mike in NC
@Brachiator: Ann Coulter has always been fond of calling women she doesn’t care for a bunch of hairy lesbians.
debbie
@Mike in NC:
Wonder if, like Trump, she’s simply distracting?
Baud
Did this predate Born on the Fourth of July?
Adam L Silverman
@seaboogie: When you’re ready, just send it to me via email and I’ll be happy to put it up.
HeleninEire
Looks like Dublin is shutting down tomorrow. All of Ireland is on Red Alert. I thought I left this shit in America. As of this morning everyone was “meh”. Now they are all scared. Never seen anything like it here.
Baud
@HeleninEire: Keep checking in if you are able.
raven
@Baud: Read Jerry Lembke’s “Spitting Image”.
Adam L Silverman
@NotMax: I’ve seen that. The issue, as I wrote here back in the late winter/early spring, is that the pendulum always swings on this stuff. Whenever there is a new administration they either tighten what they think are too lax rules of engagement or loosen what they think are to too tight rules of engagement. These changes are often adjusted again during the same administration depending on the results. So the changes themselves are not unusual or something that is happening only because of the current administration.
That said this is problematic. Because the more collateral damage you have the more future problems you have. This includes having individuals with legitimate grievances who are now biographically more likely to be open to recruitment to extremism. It is also costly. We have a well developed system of making recompense payments for damage to physical structures, as well as for injuring and killing individuals.
One final point: we are also in a very unique situation. ISIS has made the loosening of the rules of engagement woy rse. As always, the enemy gets a vote. ISIS has herded non combatants within the areas they control so that they are working and/or residing around high value targets. Whether ISIS members themselves or weapons caches. And ISIS essentially uses these folks as disposable hostages. If the US tightens the rules of engagement they function as effective shields. If the US loosens the rules of engagement they function as effective propaganda in death. Just pull up the pictures of Ramadi after we provided support to Iraqi regular and irregular forces.
https://www.ap.org/explore/a-savage-legacy/iraq-routed-IS-from-Ramadi-at-a-high-cost-A-city-destroyed.html
Major Hussein’s comment is the money quote and the buried lede.
HeleninEire
@Baud: I will.
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator: There’s a lot of evidence that those who treated the returning Vietnam vets the worst were WW II vets who felt that the Vietnam Vets had somehow besmirched being a veteran because they weren’t winning.
Women don’t spit. When was the last time you saw a woman spit. In public? Moreover, as Lembcke explains in the book, this was a recycled trope from France after defeated soldiers returned from the front during WW I. What is interesting is I know Vietnam veterans who state unequivocally that they were spat at or on, though I don’t recall if the spittees were women in their remembrance.
One point, The Spitting Image gets a bit funky when he starts talking about Vietnam vets and how they were depicted in film. The last couple of chapters of the book are not, in my opinion, as good as the rest.
Finally, his other book on Operation Tailwind is very interesting. I actually read this one first and then The Spitting Image.
https://www.amazon.com/CNNs-Tailwind-Tale-Inside-Vietnams/dp/0742523284/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8
rikyrah
@HeleninEire:
Keep safe
Adam L Silverman
@Baud:
Here’s the link:
https://www.amazon.com/Spitting-Image-Memory-Legacy-Vietnam/dp/0814751474/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1508109197&sr=1-1&keywords=the+spitting+image+myth+memory+and+the+legacy+of+vietnam
Adam L Silverman
@HeleninEire: Remember, one gallon of water per person and pet per day for at least 3 to 5 days. Also, at least 3 to 5 days of non perishable items to eat. Unless the Republic of Ireland has contracted the disaster response to FEMA, in which case you need 6 months to a year of everything, including gas for your generator.
sukabi
@Brachiator: Why a woman?
Because it’s easier to “other” a female. back then we were considered second class citizens and were making noise about being treated equally.
seaboogie
@Adam L Silverman: will do.
Mike in NC
@Adam L Silverman: We can well remember the Vietnam vet that appeared in so many movies and TV shows from the 70s to the 90s: a ticking time bomb just waiting to be set off.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike in NC: If I’m recalling correctly the chapters at the end of Lembcke’s book basically deal with the movies of the 70s. Maybe early 80s. But that’s about it.
Adam L Silverman
@seaboogie: No pressure.
debbie
@Baud:
It started before the war ended.
seaboogie
@Ruckus: There may be an issue around sounding the first alarm and not wanting to panic folks and clogging the roads. But it all arose so quickly around a ferocious wind storm, downed trees and electrical wires.
One of the challenges is that folks like to live in the “country”, high on hills in an indefensible area, and first responders want you out asap – deal with the homes later. For many in Santa Rosa, this happened far too quickly. For the rest of us, the situation is different. Am hearing helicopters and sirens now, but we are not panicking/running away like we did a few days ago. Just watching and waiting.
Mike in Pasadena
@Adam L Silverman: Thanks. ‘Nam vets were treated poorly by the very government that sent them, often by the VA, and sometimes by federal judges (Agent Orange cases). The general public, not so much. The right wing and the Nixon administration, especially Agnew, used the “spit upon” myth to vilify those who opposed the Viet Nam war. This was the same tactic used in Germany after WWI — “we lost because the soldiers and the military were ‘stabbed in the back.'”
raven
@Mike in Pasadena: The implication is that, despite the almost universal recognition that Nam Vets were treated like shit when we returned home, it’s not always the case. Is that where you were going? The people who treated me like shit were flag waving right wingers who thought we were pussies for not crushing those little jungle buggers.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike in Pasadena: I’m familiar with the Dolchstoßlegende and the history of who was doing what. Unfortunately the nuances are not part of popular American understanding of the war and its aftermath.
HeleninEire
@Adam L Silverman: Stop making me laugh. Oh wait keep making me laugh. Cuz the Republic, you know we God hating socialists, – so many stories, so little time- have a clue. We will be fine. I will check in as long as I have internet. In this European Socialist Hell Hole.
raven
@Adam L Silverman: It’s on my bookshelf.
Adam L Silverman
@raven: My bad. I meant that for Baud. I’ll go back and fix it.
raven
@Mike in Pasadena: We posted at the same time. . . with the same thoughts.
Felony Govt (formerly Old Broad in California)
@Brachiator: Interesting about the image of the spitting woman. It’s like we have some weird power. When I was a teenager I did some volunteer work against the Vietnam War. I still remember a poster in that office encouraging men to dodge the draft staying- misogynist much? – “Girls say yes to boys who say no”.
chris
@HeleninEire: The whole Ireland subreddit is all Ophelia today. As always Father Ted wins.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/76ljk8/if_there_is_a_an_event_a_father_ted_quote_cant/
Be safe.
Felony Govt (formerly Old Broad in California)
And thanks so much for this thread, Adam. The whole Puerto Rico situation has been raising my blood pressure mightily.
Citizen Alan
@Baud:
The climax of “First Blood” has Stallone’s Rambo complaining bitterly about people protesting returning veterans. I don’t remember for sure, but I’m almost positive there’s a line in which she says a protester spat on him.
Adam L Silverman
@Felony Govt (formerly Old Broad in California): You’re welcome. Other than a handful of partisans, I don’t think anyone thinks it is going well right now. Unfortunately.
raven
@Citizen Alan: It’s funny because no one seemed interested in discussing the recent “Vietnam” Doc here so I kind of just said FIDO. I have to say that I have spent 45 years defending Jane Fonda I had NEVER heard the piece where she suggested that the POW’s should be executed for war crimes. That really shook me.
raven
So here’s a feel good story. “Then this evening after the dog parade and party, with a handful of us left and about to leave, a dad with two little kids arrived – the little boy in tears – that they’d missed the carnival. Our dog security leader said, “Can we give them some balloons?” No. We gave them ALL the balloons!”
debbie
@raven:
Sweet! Almost as cute as your Driving Miss Daisy photo in the previous thread.
HeleninEire
OK friends. It’s 2am here. Ireland is gonna get hit about 9am. Dublin will be a few hours after that. Ireland is small. That’s why I moved here. We are a small country in the middle of nowhere. I like that. I’ll check in tomorrow when I can. COME VISIT. There are no strangers in Ireland; there are only friends who you haven’t yet met.
Baud
@raven:
@Adam L Silverman:
@Citizen Alan:
Thanks.
Baud
@HeleninEire: FWIW, at least Ophelia is a cool name.
Patricia Kayden
@raven: Awww. Nice.
Felony Govt (formerly Old Broad in California)
@HeleninEire: Stay safe!
Laura
@seaboogie: Three cheers for your future post seaboogie – you’ve probably had experiences and witnessed what we cannot imagine.
I’m very much looking forward to your report from the front lines.
I’m so grateful for the various maps -especially the interactive map. Our friends and family have experienced so many outcomes from all lost to spared, to some damage. It’s so hard to process in real time.
Dad’s home remains just north of the north Santa Rosa evac zone, and words of thanks are inadequate.
Thanks again seaboggie, rest and remain safe.
Patricia Kayden
@Brachiator: I’m
sure Trump’s tweet about the Austrian election will be complimentary since it’s a win for anti-immigrant Europeans.
frosty
@raven: I binge-watched it a week or so ago. I counted three times in the early years when Ho Chi Minh wanted to ally with the USA. I counted three presidents who confided in close associates that “This war isn’t winnable militarily, we have to get out. But we can’t get out.” My God, we didn’t have to go through that trauma. I came away feeling that if slavery is America’s original sin, Vietnam was the second. We’re still fighting the same damn polarized battles.
1968 was tough to watch. I remember the Prague Spring, and Paris, and thinking the world was changing for the better, and then everything went to shit in the fall.
One really good thing about the series was the music, especially the opening songs. They really nailed those. They were sort of pop-rock, folk-rock, then 1967 opens with Hendrix “Are You Experienced?” and I’m sitting there thinking, holy shit, where did THAT music come from. I think ’68 was Janis with Piece of My Heart, then ’69 opened with Led Zep Dazed and Confused. Like I said, the songs they chose fit really well.
A good series, worth the 18 hour investment of time.
Citizen Alan
@raven:
I only mentioned Rambo because I’m too young to have any clear memories of the Vietnam era of my own. But I do associate First Blood and the various movies that came after it with the rise of the cultural belief that Vietnam veterans were, as someone else noted above, ” stabbed in the back” by the Left.
Steve in the ATL
@Citizen Alan:
And if you can’t rely on that for historical accuracy…
NotMax
@HeleninEire
Better info and informed warnings than the British weatherman who unequivocally told listeners “Earlier on today, apparently, a woman rang the BBC and said she heard there was a hurricane on the way; well, if you’re watching, don’t worry, there isn’t, but having said that, actually, the weather will become very windy, but most of the strong winds, incidentally, will be down over Spain and across into France.” Followed that evening and into the next day by one of the largest storms to hit U.K., now known as the Great Storm of ’87, with winds exceeding 100 mph.
HeleninEire
@Baud: lol
MomSense
@raven:
I watched it with my dad. It’s hard to talk about.
Brachiator
@Baud:
Weird that the name of a storm headed for the UK and Ireland would be the name of a character in Shakespeare.
trollhattan
@Baud:
And an excellent Natalie Merchant album.
trollhattan
@NotMax:
“You may experience cranial impact but it assuredly will not be caused by a Braemar Stone, which is certainly out of season.”
Gretchen
@HeleninEire: Stay safe and keep us posted! I hope they’re over-preparing since this is a situation that rarely occurs and they don’t know what to expect.
SFBayAreaGal
Magnum P.I. was the first TV show that showed Vietnam Vets in a positive light. Magnum, Rick and TC were all Vietnam vets.
Another Scott
@raven: That’s my recollection of the time, too. I was a pre-teen in the ’60s, but the underlying vibe I was getting from the news and my elders was that we stomped the Germans with their gigantic war machine, and we stomped the Japanese with their giant battleships and fight-to-the-death warriors, and we did it quickly, too. Why couldn’t we beat a bunch of little rice farmers and people who lived in the jungle who had little more than rifles to fight with??!?!
The WWII veteran-support-complex (the VFW and the like) seemed to paint the soldiers as lazy doped-up kids who didn’t have what it took to fight and win, and they were pissed off about it. And Nixon and his people found ways to twist that anger and unease about not winning the war into being the Democrats / Liberals / Hippies fault.
And it’s the same today.
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
Gretchen
@raven: love it!
Gretchen
@raven: My husband wanted me to watch the Vietnam doc. I said no. I don’t want to be reminded that smart people who think they know more than they do can cause a disaster with their arrogance and hubris. I’ll watch it after the Trump presidency is over, if possible.
Gretchen
@Another Scott: That’s really interesting. I was in high school at the time, and I didn’t get that understanding. But it makes a lot of sense, especially to explain why we didn’t get out when it was obvious that we were never going to win. How could we not win?
Capri
@Another Scott: That was basically my recollection as well. Today there is a lot of over-the-top adulation of the military, yet there are still a lot of homeless vets and vets who are struggling and those who take their own lives. I have to think that the reaction to the Vietnam Vets was much less jingoinstic that what you see today. The real-life experience of actual vets today is probably the same or worse. If a Vietnam vet was homeless, at least there wasn’t someone like Bill O’Reilly saying that he or she didn’t exist.
Brachiator
@Another Scott:
I’m trying not to filter my recollection with hindsight, but I seem to remember a sense that the US got bogged down during the war, and the idea that despite all the lives and material thrown into it, the US was still holding back because of concern about the Soviet Union and the Chinese. The US could not simply destroy N Vietnam.
I guess this infuriated conservatives, but they could never admit that they,too, were not willing to risk total war with the Soviets and the Chinese.
Wayne Marks
@HeleninEire: Let us know how we can help.