CNN has reported that the Starlink Snowflake’s public statement that he’d keep covering the costs (the ones not being paid by the US, the UK, Poland, other EU and NATO member states, Ukrainians, non-Ukrainians) to keep Starlink running for the Ukrainian military was, like everything else that comes out of his mouth or across his Twitter feed, a lie.
Ukraine’s fears that its troops may lose access to Elon Musk’s crucial Starlink internet service deepened in the past week after 1,300 of the military’s satellite units went offline, according to two sources familiar with the outage.
The small, easy-to-use satellite dishes made by Musk’s private rocket company SpaceX have been universally hailed as a game-changing source of communication for Ukraine’s military, allowing it to fight and stay online even as cellular phone and internet networks have been destroyed in its war with Russia.
But concerns have risen recently over the dependability of SpaceX after discussions about funding were revealed and outages were reported near the frontlines.
CNN first reported that SpaceX sent a letter in September to the Pentagon claiming it had spent almost $100 million funding Starlink in Ukraine and that it could no longer continue to do so. The letter requested that the Defense Department take over more of the funding for Ukraine’s military, which it calculated would run tens of millions of dollars a month.
Days after the CNN report, Musk appeared to reverse course, claiming that SpaceX had withdrawn the request.
“The hell with it,” Musk tweeted, “we’ll just keep funding Ukraine govt for free.”
Negotiations between SpaceX and the Defense Department continue despite Musk’s claim that SpaceX withdrepw its request, according to a senior defense official.
“Negotiations are very much underway. Everyone in our building knows we’re going to pay them,” the senior Pentagon official told CNN, adding that the department is eager to have commitments in writing “because we worry he’ll change his mind.”
The recent outage started on October 24 and was described by one person briefed on the situation as a “huge problem” for Ukraine’s military. The terminals had been disconnected, this person said, due to a lack of funding.
The outage affected a block of 1,300 terminals that Ukraine purchased from a British company in March and were used for combat-related operations.
SpaceX was charging Ukraine’s military $2,500 a month to keep each of the 1,300 units connected, pushing the total cost to almost $20 million by September, the person briefed on the matter said. Eventually, they could no longer afford to pay, the person said.
The September letter from SpaceX to the Pentagon said there were almost 20,000 Starlink terminals in Ukraine. At that time, by SpaceX’s own admission, the majority of them were fully or partially purchased with outside funding, including from the US, Polish and UK governments. The letter claimed those sources paid for about 30% of the monthly connectivity bill as well.
For those of you wondering, the Starlink system designed to be moved around, which they’re marketing for RV use, has a one time $599 charge for the hardware and the service is $135 a month. Even if they were going with the higher cost business version the cost for the hardware is $2,500 and the service fee each month is $500. And I’m pretty sure from past reporting that the Ukrainians are either using the home or the RV version. The home version is a one time $599 charge for the hardware and $110 a month. If SpaceX is charging $2,500 a month to keep their units running, then the Starlink Snowflake is into serious war profiteering territory. He’s gouging the Ukrainian government, individual Ukrainians who are paying for these things out of pocket, the US government and, as a result, US taxpayers, as well as the British and the Polish governments and their taxpayers too! And everyone else donating money to cover the costs for this service. The guy is quickly moving from public nuisance to public menace to national security threat.
Here is President Zelenskyy’s address from earlier today. Video below, English transcript after the jump (emphasis mine):
Dear Ukrainians, I wish you health!
I held another meeting of the Staff of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief Staff today – it was quite long, three hours. We analyzed the situation on the front line in great detail – in all directions, on the energy front, the situation on the borders. The Commander-in-Chief, commanders, head of intelligence, Prime Minister, Minister of Defense, head of border guards delivered reports. We know what the enemy is preparing for. We will respond and continue to liberate our land.
Everything related to the defense forces supply support was also analyzed thoroughly. These are equipment, ammunition, communication, winter uniforms.
Countermeasures against missile and drone terror were considered separately – there are already quite significant results in this, the percentage of shooting down has become higher, but there is still work to be done. We must ensure full protection of the Ukrainian sky and will continue to do everything possible and impossible for this.
In the coming weeks, we expect good news regarding air defense and anti-missile defense for Ukraine.
By the way, today there were messages from Iran, from official representatives. There they decided to admit that they did supply drones for Russian terror. But even in this confession they lied.
We shoot down at least ten Iranian drones every day, and the Iranian regime claims that it allegedly gave little and even before the start of the full-scale invasion. Only during one day yesterday, 11 Shahed drones were destroyed. We know for sure that Iranian instructors taught Russian terrorists how to use drones, and Tehran is generally silent about it.
And if Iran continues lying about the obvious, it means that the world will make even more efforts to investigate the terrorist cooperation between the Russian and Iranian regimes and what Russia is paying Iran for such cooperation. There will be no such thing in the modern world that any of the terrorists or their accomplices will remain unpunished.
The situation on the front line did not undergo significant changes during the day. The greatest brutality of the occupiers, as before, is focused in Donetsk region. But constant fighting continues in other parts of the front as well – this is more than one thousand kilometers of the line of combat clashes.
Today, I would like to pay particular attention to the National Guardsmen who defend our state in Luhansk region as part of the defense forces. In particular, the soldiers of the 27th Pechersk Brigade of the National Guard, who, together with units of the Ground Forces, very effectively erase enemy equipment and the occupiers. Thank you guys!
We are doing everything so that you and all other soldiers have even more opportunities to chase the enemy. And the next weeks will be very important from this point of view – we are working extremely closely with our partners to get more tanks, more “armor,” more artillery for Ukraine.
I would also like to mention our border guards – those who continue strengthening the borders in Sumy region, Chernihiv region and Kharkiv region despite constant Russian shelling and provocations. In some border areas of our country, terrorists use mortar fire and there is a constant threat of rocket attacks almost every day. Thank you, guys, for your persistence and endurance!
This week it was possible to ensure the continuation of the operation of the grain corridor in the Black Sea. According to the results of seven days, 28 vessels carrying more than 800,000 tonnes of foodstuffs left the ports of Odesa, Chornomorsk and Pivdenny. The destinations are Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, Oman, Turkey, China and Ethiopia. Moreover, the ship to Ethiopia with 30,000 tonnes of wheat on board was chartered by the UN Food Program. And this is a typical list of countries that consume most of our agricultural exports.
It was the example of the grain export initiative by which we showed that the world is capable of guaranteeing stability despite any threats posed by Russia. The world did not succumb to Russian blackmail, key actors acted decisively, and as a result, the aggravation of the food crisis was avoided. This is one of the most significant international results of the entire autumn. When the world is united, terrorists stand no chance.
Another proof of the power of real world unity is the work of our charity platform UNITED24. Today is exactly six months after its launch.
Nearly $220 million received in donations from millions of people of more than hundred countries. Drones, helicopters, demining machines are being bought for Ukraine, in particular the very effective Armtraс machines, dozens of ambulance vehicles that are already used in the frontline areas. Star ambassadors joined the project: Andriy Shevchenko, Elina Svitolina, Oleksandr Usyk, Demna, Liev Schreiber, Mark Hamill, Imagine Dragons, Barbra Streisand, Scott Kelly and Timothy Snyder.
I thank every UNITED24 donor and ambassador, the project team and everyone who helps us defend ourselves against Russian terror!
And, by the way, next week we will launch another fundraising direction – we will raise funds for a fleet of marine drones. I think absolutely everyone understands what this is and what it is needed for, and I am sure that millions of people will support this direction in our defense. Everyone has already seen how it works. And this is only for the protection of our marine water area, we claim nothing that does not belong to us.
Glory to all who fight and work for Ukraine!
Glory to every our hero!
Glory to Ukraine!
I just want to reemphasize this sentence that I highlighted in the copy and paste:
We know what the enemy is preparing for. We will respond and continue to liberate our land.
Well that’s ominous. But it is always better to have a plan, than not to have a plan.
Here’s former NAVDEVGRU Squadron Leader Chuck Pfarrer’s most recent assessment of the situation in Kherson:
KHERSON CITY / 5 NOV/ RU troops continue to forcibly deport Ukrainian citizens within the urban area. These kidnappings occur against a backdrop of general looting of civil infrastructure to include communications, cellular systems & power transmission equipment. pic.twitter.com/7RqCRDbnNf
— Chuck Pfarrer | Indications & Warnings | (@ChuckPfarrer) November 5, 2022
The Russians blew the Oskil resevoir’s floodgates.
The russian occupiers staged a man-made natural disaster in the Kharkiv region.
While retreating, they blew up the floodgates of the dam of the Oskil reservoir. The reservoir, which before the invasion was 85 km long and up to 4 km wide, is now completely shallow. pic.twitter.com/BZ4rrHyiQk— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) November 4, 2022
Assholes!
We now have some fidelity on the numbers of convicts Prigozhin has been able to recruit to fight in Ukraine as part of his Wagner Private Military Company (PMC):
Our colleagues from @the_ins_ru were able to compute the minimum number of convicts recruited by Prigozhin since August and already killed by now. The number is 458, and is based on the consecutive numbering of posthumous award letters received by families from Wagner. pic.twitter.com/NND4Kr8dls
— Christo Grozev (@christogrozev) November 4, 2022
By the way, if you want to learn more about the guy signing those death letters, or about the origins of Wagner in general, you might want to (re)read our 2020 investigation into Putin's shadow army. https://t.co/MKQRW66X6n
— Christo Grozev (@christogrozev) November 5, 2022
The Insider‘s reporting also gives us a total of the number of Wagner PMCs killed fighting in Ukraine; non-convict and convict alike:
At the same time, according to the Center, the total number of Wagner PMC mercenaries killed in Ukraine (including both convicts and ordinary mercenaries) is from 800 to 1,000 people.
The Center being referenced here is the Ukrainian Center for the Study and Counteraction of Hybrid Threats.
Here’s some good news regarding Ukraine’s power grid:
Antony Blinken's comments suggest that the G7 countries will help Ukraine restore the grid
Germany has called for direct assistance to Ukraine to help prepare for the winter collapse of the electricity grid
— Samuel Ramani (@SamRamani2) November 5, 2022
Got another word for you today
🦊Fox Лисиця (Lysytsya)
Isn't he beautiful?
I now want to learn fox in your language❤️— Sofia Ukraini (@SlavaUk30722777) November 5, 2022
The fox knows many things…
Politico has reported that the US, via the DOD, is going to pay to refurbish and upgrade 45 T-72 tanks for Ukraine while the Netherlands is going to fund another 45.
The Pentagon will pay for the Czech Republic to upgrade 45 Soviet-era T-72 tanks for use in Ukraine, as part of the Biden administration’s latest $400 million package of military aid for the country, the department announced Friday.
Meanwhile, the Netherlands will fund the refurbishment of another 45 Czech T-72 tanks for a total of 90 that are set to begin arriving in Ukraine by the end of the year, said Deputy Pentagon Press Secretary Sabrina Singh.
Other NATO countries, including Poland, have already donated hundreds of older T-72s to Kyiv. But this is the first time the United States is paying the Czech defense industrial base to upgrade the tanks, Singh said. The refurbishment will include adding new optics, communications and armor, according to a U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the specifics of the deal.
Upgraded tanks will be crucial on the battlefield, Singh said, as Ukraine continues to try to take back territory in the northeast in Kharkiv and in the southern Kherson region.
Kyiv has pushed for western tanks, such as the U.S.-made Abrams or the German Leopard, but neither country has agreed to send them. The U.S.has hesitated to provide Abrams, which guzzle fuel and would require training for the Ukrainians to use.
“Introducing a new main battle tank … would be a huge undertaking for the Ukrainian forces,” Singh said. “We do continue to consult with our allies and partners to assess our ability on what we can provide in terms of western armored platforms but these [T-72] tanks we will believe will make a difference on the battlefield.”
In another first, the latest U.S. aid package also includes funding to upgrade a number of American Hawk air defense missiles for use in Ukraine, Singh said. The Hawk missile is an older, surface-to-air guided missile that the U.S. no longer uses, and has longer range than the Stinger anti-air missiles the U.S. provided this year. The missiles will complement the Hawk launchers Spain recently committed to sending to Kyiv, she said.
The new air defense equipment will help Ukraine defend against “brutal” attacks from Russian drones and cruise missiles, Singh added, although she declined to say how many missiles would be transferred or to give an exact timeline for the delivery.
The package also includes money to send 250 M1117 armored vehicles for the first time, as well as 40 riverine boats, and 1,100 Phoenix Ghost drones, according to a release from the State Department.
Here’s President Zelenksyy’s response:
Zelenskyy responds: https://t.co/a56bFeDMlp
— Chris (@chrstphr_woody) November 4, 2022
And Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kuleba’s:
I am grateful to the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, and the U.S. for their joint decision to provide 90 T-72 tanks to Ukraine. First 26 repaired and modernized tanks will arrive within the next month. Thank you, friends, for your unwavering solidarity with Ukraine.
— Dmytro Kuleba (@DmytroKuleba) November 4, 2022
Morning, world ☀️
255th day of Ukraine's fight, and 1 day closer to victory 💪🏻🇺🇦#Ukraine stands strong. #StandWithUkraine#UkraineWillWin#GloryToUkraine #ArmUkraineNow #CloseTheSky pic.twitter.com/w2WC4VfyWG
— Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine – Ukrainian Parliament (@ua_parliament) November 5, 2022
That’s enough for tonight.
Your daily Patron!
Canada has promised to help Ukraine with demining. I welcome this decision and thank you very much. P.S. @JustinTrudeau sorry again for barking 😅 pic.twitter.com/ROYKvtI6p8
— Patron (@PatronDsns) November 5, 2022
Go Canada…
What?
And a new video from Patron’s official TikTok:
@patron__dsns Частина друга😅 #песпатрон #патрондснс
The caption machine translates as:
Part two😅 #PatrontheDog #PatronDSNS
Open thread!
Cameron
Hey, somebody‘s got to pay for Elon’s shitty Twitter deal – why not the US taxpayer?
Alison Rose
Every day, I think I can’t possibly hate Elon Musk more. Then it’s the next day, and I do. What an absolute putz.
That is very good news about the tanks, and I hope it can happen as quickly as possible.
This part of Zelenskyy’s address stood out to me:
I like how he is using the example of the grain shipments to point out to other nations, “Hey, you know that ‘escalation’ you’re all shaking in your boots about? Yeah, no. The dude is so full of shit, he oughta be buying stock in Metamucil. Stop being afraid of him.”
Thank you as always, Adam.
Ruckus
@Alison Rose:
Elon is a putz?
I think he’d have to move upscale a few dozen spots to be a putz.
Anonymous At Work
Starlink is a US-based company out of Texas. What can Biden do to require assistance? Not sure Defense Production Act can do much, or that Musk wouldn’t sabotage Starlink otherwise. Could Biden ask DoD to audit Starlink’s pricing and billing?
Kristine
That book cover always cracks me up. As does the cat in overalls.
Taking my laughs where I can find them these days.
I’m glad about the tanks and am wondering what steps could be taken if it’s determined that Musk is a security threat. Someone visits him for a quiet talk? Asset seizures? Something in-between?
Torrey
Hmm, something off here. Patron apologized for barking at Justin Trudeau? I’ve had a JRT–excuse me, I mean I’ve been the humble servant of a JRT. They do not apologize. I suspect some human got on Patron’s account and went all diplomatic on the situation.
Another Scott
I find a lot of the reporting about the Starlink terminals and service to be confusing. Space.com says that the DoD has not paid for them:
(emphasis added)
1) It’s kinda weird to think that people using your fancy service at higher rates than you could probably hope for is a bad thing (“pay me $400M or else!”). $20M a month for 25k terminals is $800 a month. Starlink.com is advertising the service at less than $150/month (for the in-motion service). Why the difference??
2) Secure communications should not be a function of whether you’re at war or not – it should be built in for something new and important like satellite comms.
3) If his business plan was for Starlink to be profitable in 2023, he’s delusional there too.
4) There’s no sign of a donation-for-Ukraine link on starlink.com that I could find in poking around there just now.
People who have to follow this stuff, and the mouth noises from EM, must be pulling their hair out.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Anonymous At Work
@Another Scott: I suspect Elmo (I love emptywheel’s name for him) is lumping all security costs into the “enhanced cybersecurity” bucket (and anything related to compatibility coding is now “security”, etc.) as a justification to charge higher prices.
Alison Rose
@Ruckus: It was the first word that came to mind.
bookworm1398
@ Anonymous at Work. The government can threaten to cancel SpaceX NASA contracts is what they can do.
or do a full audit of Space X to ensure it’s complying with all the regulations for government contractors and levy high fines for the violations they find (there are always violations)
Jinchi
Is Putin just using mobilization as a way to get the Ukrainians to execute undesirables for him? Because I can’t imagine he would want a battle hardened population of murderers and drug traffickers to return to Russia after the war.
Timill
@bookworm1398: They can threaten but they can’t do. If those contracts don’t launch on SpaceX, they don’t launch.
ULA only have a few rockets left with the Russian engines, and all launches are sold. Vulcan, their replacement, hasn’t launched yet. New Glenn hasn’t launched yet.
Anonymous At Work
@Jinchi: Downstream effects of getting rid of the undesirables by press-ganging them into the RU army are huge. A lot of semi-desirables flee the country, with families. Many mostly-desirables second-guess how desirable they are and also flee. As do desirable-but-better-safe-than-sorry types. That’s a lot of productive capacity gone and you are still left with the kleptocrats that are the real drain on the economy.
trollhattan
T-90 series is evidently the most advanced Russian tank. They kindly gave one to Ukraine and Ukraine are now seeing that there are visitation rights by returning it to the field. I assume some driving lessons were required first.
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1588567087009902593?cxt=HHwWgsDRsavW3IssAAAA
lee
Do we have any technical details on the T72 upgrades?
I’m curious how NATO upgrades to T72 compare to Russian upgrades.
Grumpy Old Railroader
@Another Scott:
Mrs Grumpy and I peregrinate up and down the North Coast of CA in our RV and have looked in to Starlink. It is my understanding (which may be wrong) that the difference between Starlink Home and Starlink Mobile is how you rank in the upload/download speed. Example: Only 25 Starlink “Home” users per square mile (not sure on exact number) and they have priority bandwidth. If I park my RV in that area I get added to the Home users list. I get the same service EXCEPT if all 25 Homies are using bandwidth, my Mobile unit is throttled to a slower speed (Whagh, there goes streaming Netflix).
So I am not sure how Starlink is handling the movement of Starlink devices between “areas” and how the bandwidth issue is handled. I “think” that only so many devices can be concentrated in a given grid before it starts degrading upload and download speeds
Ken
Considering that particular intelligence hole was discovered during World War II, that’s just utter incompetence from Wagner. Especially since there’s no conceivable reason to include such a number in the letter, even if they’re used for internal tracking.
Omnes Omnibus
@lee: I would think that one of the main things would be to retube it so that it can fire NATO rounds.
Mike in NC
Elon Musk has had so much bad press, he should think about rebranding. How much would it cost him to become “Elon Trump”?
frosty
@Omnes Omnibus:
I would hope they fix the autoloader and ammo storage so the turret doesn’t launch into the sky when it’s hit.
Carlo Graziani
@lee: There was a bit in The Drive’s War Zone yesterday on this, but no more detail than what Adam just posted, to wit “…upgraded optics, communications, and armor packages”.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: Musk is lying. And the reporter is is not calling him on it. It has been repeatedly reported, and I’ve included that reporting in previous updates on this topic, that the DOD was paying for a chunk of these for Ukraine. That Musk was seriously over charging the DOD for them. And that Musk was claiming he was donating them despite the DOD paying for them.
ETA: By paying for, the reporting is the DOD bought a bunch of the $500 terminals for Ukraine and Starlink charged the DOD $2,500 plus for each of them.
Michael Cain
@Timill:
This. SpaceX is now the only vendor with heavy-lift low-risk certified flights available for new national security and NASA launches that require that. Certification requires a minimum of two consecutive successful launches for the configuration being offered. Both the United Launch Alliance and Blue Origin are dependent on BO-built BE-4 engines. No one knows what build tempo BO might reach, but certification seems unlikely before 2024 for either of them, and then only a small number of flights per year.
Carlo Graziani
Incidentally, has anyone found any further evidence of Pfarrer’s “Russian salient at Makiivka-Nevske” from yesterday’s “Izium Axis” map? There’s no sign of that action anywhere that I can search.
Another Scott
@Adam L Silverman: My recollection is that the US (via USAID) paid about $3M for some terminals and transport. WaPo (from April):
USAID is not the DoD, of course.
I’ve seen lots of tweets about crowdfunding of the $60/month cost that users over there were paying.
Dunno.
It still seems like (potentially intentional) confusing reporting to me.
Thanks.
Cheers,
Scott.
Martin
@Anonymous At Work: Nationalize it under national security needs. We’ve done it lots of times before – railroads, media outlets, Smith and Wesson was nationalized for a bit, mines. Mercks US branch was nationalized. We nationalized 20-ish railroads to form Amtrak. Close to 100 freight railroads to form Conrail. We nationalized Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae back in 2008 or 2009.
We can just declare that ongoing technical support for Ukraine’s military operations are in US national security interest, and the Federal Government will take over all Starlink operations and launch capabilities. That’s basically the entirety of SpaceX. Just leave Gwynne Shotwell in charge under NASA/Space Force/DOD oversight, cut Musk a check, and call it a day.
oldster
Melon Husk is probably going to insist that every Ukrainian soldier who uses Starlink now pay $8/mo for a blue check.
He really is a putz, an asshole, and a security threat all wrapped up in one. I don’t know how long he has been working to help Putin, but it’s pretty clear that he is now.
Jinchi
Didn’t Bellingcat use a similar technique to identify specific members of Russian intelligence? (Consecutive numbering of passports in that case.)
Obvious Russian Troll
@Alison Rose: I’m just floored by the way the guy keeps acting against his own interest. I’ve thought the guy was a bastard since the Thai divers/pedo guy incident, but I thought he was a reasonably bright bastard. Instead, he’s gone out of his way to sabotage himself.
Then I remember he’s a narcissist, and it all makes sense.
Jay
@lee:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-72M4CZ
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: Ok, I confused USAID with DOD. Regardless, the US government has been buying them at a huge markup and then Musk claims they were donated.
Adam L Silverman
@Jinchi: Yes.
Unkown known
@frosty: I know nothing about building tanks, but I’m pretty sure that they are very complicated systems with many interlocking parts that all have to fit into a confined space, and typically if you take one of those and tell the engineers “just switch where the driver and the bullets go”, the engineers start to get throbbing veins in their foreheads and become excessively distant and over-polite.
I’d be delighted to be wrong, but generally if you want to make big changes like that to a complex 3D jigsaw you basically have to rip out the entire insides out and build it from scratch.
It sounds more like they are clapping more/better armour plates on the outside, and then switching out the small electronic wiring parts where you just pull out an old box and replace it with a new one, and then fiddle with the wiring (so then it can do things like see better, and presumably get better targeting on the fly, integrating better with all the battlefield comms to have improved situational awareness, etc.
But again, I know jack and shit, so this is a very poorly educated guess.
bjacques
Elmo is a tool, but I’m gonna wait a couple of days to see if Starlink comes back online and the root cause turns out to be a temporary structural issue, like last time.
oldster
@Unkown known:
My impression, too. The carousel-style autoloader at the base of the turret –the feature that makes turrets do the high-jump — is so fundamental to the design that there’s no way to eliminate it.
However, better use of infantry and combined arms can do a lot to keep the other side from hitting your tank to begin with.
Jay
@Unkown known:
The main armament is a 125 mm gun 2A46M. The crew comprises a gunner, driver and commander. Maximum speed on the road is 61 km/h, and in terrain 44 km/h. This tank is comparable with third generation MBT.[1]
The main goal of modernization was to achieve combat parameters and utility properties of 3rd – 4th generation tanks. The upgrade increased the firepower by conducting effective fire from place or while moving and increased the effects of under-caliber projectiles with a completely new ammunition for the tank cannon and the possibility of observation by day and night. The new powerplant and the modification of the chassis significantly contributed to increasing the mobility and maneuverability of the tank. Passive and active tank protection in combat was also increased by attaching dynamic body protection and turret protection, reinforcing the armor and body modification, laser detection and indication system, new protective smoke grenade and protective masking system (against visual, infra and radiolocation survey).
The upgrade was a joint venture between Nimda, Finmeccanica – Selex Galileo of Italy and Vop Cz (VOP25). The upgrade consists of a new powerpack in the form of Perkins Condor CV 12, Allison XTG-411-6N automatic transmission and Selex Galileo TURMS/T Fire Control System. The navigation system was upgraded with NBV-97, which was developed by Letecké Přístroje Praha SRO and a new communications suite has been added.
For protection, a new ERA called DYNA (DYNamic Armour) developed in the Czech Republic was added along with full NBC protection and a fire detection and suppression system by German company Kidde Deugra.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-72M4CZ
The 125 mm/L48 smoothbore cannon is the current standard (upgraded) Soviet/Chinese/Russian, Ukrainian man tank gun.
Bill Arnold
@Jay:
Thanks. The wikipedia page on (explosive) reactive armor is also instructive.
I do wonder about that Israeli Trophy active countermeasure system; many of those involved in Ukraine must be thinking about it. (explosively formed penetrators actively aimed (by rapid sensors/automation) at incoming large munitions)
Lyrebird
@Unkown known: None of my stressors are anything as bad as what Ukrainian soldiers are facing, but in my sphere, it has been a rough week.
This bit from you is beautiful. I needed a good laugh, thank you.
Another Scott
Interesting thread…
[ Note that he mixed up “left” and “right” in his description – the left and right are determined by looking downstream ]
(via Oryx)
Cheers,
Scott.
Jay
@oldster:
a key issue with the Russian tanks with autoloaders, isn’t really the auto loaders. Yes, they prevent wet stowage of the ammo but inadequate fire suppression systems that can’t prevent ammo fires from becoming uncontrolled is the root cause.
If you watch a lot of the Turret Olympics Vids, rarely is the turret toss due to the primary strike. Ususally, there is smoke as a ready shell starts to cook off, followed by a flame burst as more shells start to cook off,, shortly followed by the turret launch as the warheads and propellants in the remaining ammo explodes, rather than burns.
An automatic fire suppression system that can extinguish the first shell to catch fire, (or several) would prevent the loss of the tank.
frosty
@Unkown known:
Good description and I agree. I really didn’t think anything could be done about it; it’s pretty basic to the tank’s design.
Along with everyone else, I liked your description of the poor engineers!
oldster
@Jay:
All true, what you say.
Still, I’d rather not rely on the sprinkler system to put out the fires. None of the western designs — Abrams, Leopard, Merkava — do that, opting to put the ammo further from harms way and further from harming the occupants.
Does the T-72 being shipped to Ukraine now include a better fire-suppression system? I hope it does.
On the other hand, the Ukrainians are clearly very happy to drive any model tanks that the Russians leave behind. They know the odds of a turret-toss, and they know that their country’s survival is worth it.
Jay
@Bill Arnold:
The two issues with Trophy are cost, and dismounts. It’s not a cheap systems and any dismounts in the area of the APS/missile impact are either dead or badly wounded. While the system can be turned off, like the Russian experience with the SHORA system in Syria, it’s not very effective if it’s turned off. The IDF’s experience with the system in combat is that in many cases, the crews did not even know there was an incoming strike. The Trophy system dealt with the incoming strike before any of the other observation/warning systems alerted the crew. As a result, it has to always be on.
Jay
@oldster:
the autoloader feature of autoloaders tank eliminates 1 crew position, provides a constant firing rate, ( rather than a tired loader slowing down or grabbing the wrong shell,) about half a metre in vehicle height, 30-40% of the cost, and 10 to 15 tons of mass.
Like many options, it’s a trade off.
Yes, the tanks are getting a massively upgraded automatic fire suppression system.
tokyokie
@Obvious Russian Troll:
I was only vaguely aware of Musk before the cave rescue horror story, and I found what the narcissistic twit did absolutely appalling. I’m not an engineer, but even I can figure out that a rigid contraption wouldn’t be able to fit through narrow, twisty passageways. If anything, if it had been used, it probably would have gotten stuck, resulting in the deaths of every last one of those kids and their rescuers. That the entitled, narcissistic asshole would try to use his fortune — the basis of which is his inheritance of a business that exploited the brutally racist policies of apartheid South Africa — to claim the world news spotlight and, in doing so, pose a threat to everybody involved in the effort, is disgusting. That Musk’s piquish response was to call the guy who organized the rescue effort a pedo for putting his life on the line to save those kids is the strongest argument of which I’m cognizant for confiscatory levels of inheritance taxes.
Anonymous At Work
@Adam L Silverman: The Russian military hasn’t learned much since Tannenberg Forest, has it?
Jinchi
I expect Starlink to request, let’s see… multiply by nine carry the three, divide by 2…. $44 billion to maintain service to Ukraine.
The Pale Scot
Have Musk dragged out of his house and shot in the back of his head.
I’m sorry, but watching body bags that obviously have young children in them being put in vans has eliminated any mercy I might have felt for Russians and their friends
Propaganda yada yada yada, there has to be a fulcrum when your children are coming home in coffins and you should get a clue that this shit is fucked up
After winter, give UKR the ability to take out RU FF industry. Declare it a terrorist state, that puts American corps like the Koch brothers into the hole. Hound down the corps that are suppling Iran with parts to make drones. No sanctions, kinetic strikes in Switzerland, France, Germany whatever.
This fucking bullshit that the West is “civilized” is over. We are in WW3
If Egypt, Turkey etc want to join the dark side, fuck em, declare them as terrorist states. Cut off their air supply, and let them fall into chaos.
Watching body bags with young children being carried away really angered me. Yes this shit happens everywhere. My mum’s family is from Poland but spoke Ukrainian and Yiddish (go figure)
As far as we can find out, most of them that didn’t make it to Poland died in the 30’s
If I was 30 years younger, I’d be on a plane to Poland
randal m sexton
I wonder if when Elmo (Hat tip EmptyWheel for the Elon nick ) talked to Putin, Putin mentioned his ASAT stuff: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/12/26/putin-russia-tested-space-asat-satellite-weapon/ — and suggested that Elon had some nice startlinks, and it would be a shame if something happened to them.
Mallard Filmore
@Another Scott:
How many soldiers will UA be able to reassign elsewhere when they clear the right bank?
(Left and right are viewed by looking downstream. Did you mean the right bank?)
Geminid
@Alison Rose: President Zelenskyy did well to use the grain shipments as an example for nations not to be intimidated by Russia.
That was a singular situation, though. Turkiye holds some very high cards. It is a major regional power, with a well-trained navy four times larger than Russia’s tattered Black Sea fleet, as well as NATO’s third largest air force. Also, Erdogan can tell Putin that if grain ships from Ukraine cannot get out of the Black Sea neither will Russian ships, and make that promise stick.
Putin knows he can’t afford a war with Turkiye on top of the war he already has going with Ukraine. He also knows that Erdogan is stubborn as a mule, and he doesn’t want to make Erdogan an enemy.
Uncle Cosmo
@The Pale Scot: Um, what does the “FF” in “RU FF industry” stand for?
The Pale Scot
@Uncle Cosmo:
fossil fuels
Geminid
@The Pale Scot: Why bomb factories in Switzerland, Germany and France when we can just strike the factories in Iran that are building the drones, and blow up the cargo planes flying them to Russia and the ships ferrying them across the Caspian Sea?
It seems like a lot of extra bother.
Tony G
@tokyokie: On the basis of my Psychology 101 class that I took 48 years ago, I conclude that Elon Musk (like Donald Trump, and a variety of others) is a pampered rich boy who never had to grow up. His wealth is so vast that he could literally throw away 99% of his money and still be a multi-billionaire. Nothing matters to him — not even his money — except his narcissism. The fact that he has millions of fan-boys (and maybe some fan-girls) is a real indictment of our society.
Tony G
@Tony G: Yesterday I looked at the comments on a New York Times article about Elon’s firing of half of the staff of Twitter. Almost half of the comments were from people gushing about what a brilliant leader Elon is. Maybe those comments are from Elon’s “bots”. Or maybe there are a significant number of really demented people out there.
Another Scott
Fresh, depressing, Galeev thread:
Is he right? No idea. But we should remember that not everyone has the same priors and ways of thinking that we do.
Good diplomats earn their pay every day.
Cheers,
Scott.
Bill Arnold
@Another Scott:
Those Russian priors are rooted in “realities” aggressively constructed and defended [against intrusions by realer-realities] by Russian propagandists, state and otherwise. (This is a huge weakness…)
Carlo Graziani
@Another Scott: There’s a lot of tea leaf reading going on in lieu of actual data on Kremlin policy processes. Nobody really knoes, so, as you say, conclusions tend to be substantially affected by priors.
My priors say that Putin is terrified of what he’s started, knows that he can’t escalate in any way that NATO can’t see or raise him, and would take any deal he could get.