Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

When we show up, we win.

Democrats have delivered the Square Deal, the New Deal, the Fair Deal, and now… the Big Joe Biden Deal.

It’s always darkest before the other shoe drops.

The jury literally has a bell they can ring to force Trump to show up on command. Greatest thing ever!

Republicans in disarray!

“Just close your eyes and kiss the girl and go where the tilt-a-whirl takes you.” ~OzarkHillbilly

Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.

Glad to see john eastman going through some things.

The rest of the comments were smacking Boebert like she was a piñata.

There are consequences to being an arrogant, sullen prick.

“They not like us!” (that’s for sure!)

This isn’t Democrats spending madly. This is government catching up.

You know it’s bad when the Project 2025 people have to create training videos on “How To Be Normal”.

When you’re a Republican, they let you do it.

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

Happy indictment week to all who celebrate!

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

Fani Willis claps back at Trump chihuahua, Jim Jordan.

This really is a full service blog.

It’s a good piece. click on over. but then come back!!

I am pretty sure Katy Tur wasn’t always such a bootlicking sycophant.

Found liable for massive fraud, is required to post a massive bond, gets a break, then files a *fraudulent* bond!

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War for Ukraine Day 606: The Butcher’s Bill in Kharkiv

War for Ukraine Day 606: The Butcher’s Bill in Kharkiv

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Art by NEIVANMADE of a Ukrainian painted black and outlined in blood red kneeling in grief with hands covering the face surrounded by the bodies of Ukrainians killed by Russians on a grey background. "Russia Is Committing Genocide Right Now" is across the top center of the image.

(Image by NEIVANMADE)

Quick housekeeping note: for those concerned, Jay’s interpretation of my comment last night was correct. I was done posting for the night. I should have more eloquently phrased it; I did not mean to get everyone spun up. And the commenter who thinks they have to walk away so I don’t, that is not the case.

Also, I think Sebastian asked something about helicopters after I’d decided I needed to walk away last night. If you’ll please report your question, I’ll try to answer it in tomorrow night’s update.

Here’s the current butcher’s bill from Russia’s attack on Kharkiv yesterday:

At least six people were killed and 16 were injured as a result of the russian missile attack on the Nova Poshta terminal in Kharkiv region.

.@ZelenskyyUa:
«Pressure on the terrorist state must be increased. Every day, we must respond to Russian terror with our results on the frontlines. And we are doing exactly that.

Terror and murder will not get Russia anywhere. Terrorists will end up facing justice for everything they have done.»

I’ve seen the CCTV video from inside the facility when it was struck. I’m not posting it here, but there was no time for anyone to get to safety.

Here is President Zelenskyy’s address from earlier today. Video below, English transcript after the jump.

Ukraine will not break – it will endure and drive out the Russian evil from its land – address by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy

22 October 2023 – 19:53

Dear Ukrainians,

First and foremost, I want to dwell on the Russian attack on the Nova Poshta terminal near Kharkiv. The rescue operation has been completed, and necessary assistance has been provided to all the affected. In total, there were 17 of them. Six people were killed in this attack. My deepest condolences to the families and loved ones of the deceased!

We will undoubtedly respond to Russia for every manifestation of its terror, including this attack.

Terrorists will not break the Ukrainian will to defend and protect own state, own independence by any means. The readiness of our people to work for their country, for their Ukraine. The determination to fight so that there is never any real basis for Moscow to hope that Ukraine will ever break. It will not break. It will endure. It will hold up. And despite everything, it will drive out the Russian evil from own land.

The main focus is the front, our defense, our actions, our results, and the support of everyone to those who are currently in the battle, on the combat posts, in the positions. Every day, we need results for Ukraine – to withstand Russian assaults, to eliminate occupiers, and to move forward. Whether it’s by a kilometer or 500 meters, but forward every day, to improve Ukrainian positions, to press the occupiers. This strengthens our state. It motivates the entire world to help us. And it proves that Russia’s terror does not work.

Today, I want to mention our warriors who have distinguished themselves during these weeks. The warriors who have provided exceptional assistance to Ukraine, on different fronts and in different tasks, but equally powerfully and effectively.

Kupiansk direction, Kharkiv region. The warriors of our strong 57th Separate Motorized Infantry Brigade and the 1st Mechanized Battalion of the 67th Separate Mechanized Brigade – I thank you! You’ve done an excellent job!

Avdiyivka and Maryinka directions, particularly intense. Numerous Russian attacks. But our positions are defended. The 53rd and 110th Separate Mechanized Brigades, the 59th Separate Motorized Infantry Brigade, and the 79th Airborne Assault Brigade – I thank all of you, warriors, for a truly exemplary defense. It instills confidence throughout the country.

And each time, it’s an honor for me to thank the warriors of the 55th Separate Artillery Brigade, which actively and effectively supports all our guys in defending Donetsk.

Lyman direction – thank you for thwarting the occupier’s plans. Our 68th Separate Hunting Brigade and units of the renowned 95th Separate Airborne Assault Brigade – well done, guys!

Bakhmut direction – both defense and our offensives, and our results are very, very good. I thank the warriors of the 92nd Separate Assault Brigade and the 93rd Separate Mechanized Brigade. Thank you for your strength, guys!

Among all directions in the south, I want to particularly acknowledge the paratroopers of the 46th Airmobile Brigade – Melitopol direction. Thank you, guys, for truly helping the entire front with your results.

And the next week will bring more opportunities for Ukraine – for our defense, for our protection against Russian terror, for our Peace Formula, which continues to unite the world.

Today, I spoke with the Emir of Qatar and thanked him, among other things, for the readiness to participate in the next Peace Formula meeting, as well as for the unwavering support for our territorial integrity and sovereignty. We also discussed Qatar’s mediation in the release of deported and captured Ukrainians.

I thank everyone in the world who is helping Ukraine! I also thank everyone in our country who uses each day to make us all, the entire Ukrainian people, stronger!

Glory to all of you!

Glory to Ukraine!

Avdiivka:

I did not know that the Avdiivka classic car show and expo was in October.

Russian assault battalion commander was reportedly killed in Avdiivka on 21 October. The note about this appeared on the Russian VK social network. It is unclear how he died but he was the son of a Russian officer who went through Afghanistan, so the loss is significant, given his position as the battalion commander.

https://poteru.net/soldier/34571

Kupyiansk:

I’ve been informed that the Kraken Unit was never retained to handle legal matters by former President Trump during the 2020 election.

Donetsk:

For those of you armor enthusiasts:

Stridsvagn translates as combat wagon and the 122 is an improved version of the German Leopard 2A5. The improvements are to the fire control system and the armor.

For both you drone enthusiasts and fans of Russian military equipment going boom:

And for you very niche enthusiasts of Russians destroying their own military equipment:

Presumably another Russian air defense friendly fire occurred somewhere at the front.

According to a Russian source associated with Russian military aviation:
“The very first losses of our aviation in the Northern Military District were from our own air defense. On the very first day of the war.
I think our last crew shot down in the war will also be attributed to our air defense.

Moreover, every loss is investigated. The reason for the loss is copied. Deceased crews are awarded the Order of Courage.
Air defense crews are awarded the Order of Courage a little later, and so on in a circle.
As I understand it, this suits everyone except the pilots.
Moreover, lately we have to dodge our missiles more and more often. And there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

To the crew of the Mi-8MTV-5 eternal flight…”

Christopher Miller, who covers Ukraine for The Financial Times, dives into the legitimate concerns that Ukraine will get lost in the Israel-Hamas war shuffle.

@WarintheFuture is Australian MG (ret) Mick Ryan.

Here’s more from the article:

When Volodymyr Zelenskyy strode into Nato headquarters earlier this month, he found western leaders buzzing about war — but not his war.

Just four days before the Ukrainian president’s visit to Brussels, Hamas militants had launched a surprise attack on Israel, which then responded with air strikes and began mobilising for a new conflict that has thrust the Middle East again into crisis.

Zelenskyy was cautious about not appearing as though he was competing for attention, while showing empathy for Israelis who had lost loved ones in the attacks and drawing parallels between his war and theirs.

“Terrorists like Putin, or like Hamas, seek to hold free and democratic nations as hostages and they want power over those who seek freedom,” Zelenskyy said. “That means we must win. It requires patience, it requires steady and continuous support.”

He also urged “all leaders to visit Israel and show their support for the people”. If anyone knows the importance of showing up and putting up a united front it’s Zelenskyy, whose country remains locked in a fight for survival against Russia and is heavily dependent on western support.

Zelenskyy reportedly asked prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu whether he could visit Israel along with other leaders to show solidarity. The response from Jerusalem came quick and cold: “Now is not the time,” according to Hebrew-language media.

To many Ukrainians, the denial felt like more than a snub: it was a red alert.

With a slow-going counteroffensive and Russia showing no sign of quitting, Ukraine faces the prospect of a long war, which will require unprecedented, long-term support from allies. The Israel-Hamas war comes on top of turmoil in the US Congress, widening fractures in EU support for Kyiv, and stumbling efforts to woo the so-called global south that were already worrying Ukrainians about the world growing weary and distracted at their expense.

When EU foreign ministers convene for a regular meeting on Monday, Ukraine will not be the first item on the agenda for the first time since February 2022, displaced by the conflict between Israel and Hamas.

Ukrainians are now wondering if the world has the attention span and courage to focus on two major wars.

President Joe Biden on Thursday urged Congress to approve a new security package for both Ukraine and Israel.

“We cannot and will not let terrorists like Hamas and tyrants like Putin win — I refuse to let that happen.”

But Biden’s words have done little to alleviate the concerns of Ukrainians, whose fears are not unfounded: the world has forgotten Russia’s war against Ukraine before.

When outside observers marked 600 days of Russia’s war against Ukraine earlier this month, Ukrainians marked day number 3,525. For Kyiv, the conflict began on February 20 2014, when President Vladimir Putin sent troops in unmarked uniforms to Crimea and from there into Ukraine’s eastern regions known as the Donbas.

And Ukrainians remember how the world largely ignored them after Minsk 2, a controversial accord aimed at providing a road map to peace, was signed in 2015.

The accord froze the frontline and turned the hot war to a simmer, with media — including the FT — dubbing it “Europe’s forgotten war”.

“After the second Minsk, the world’s attention was fading away. Especially in 2016, 2017,” said Yarema Dukh, a communications officer for former president of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko.

It was between 2015 and 2022 that Russia cemented its grip on Crimea and the occupied areas of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, and began preparing for its full-scale invasion.

Zelenskyy has spoken openly about the consequences of that being repeated.

“Russia needs a pause in the war in Ukraine to better prepare for a new and bigger invasion and to then attack Ukraine’s neighbours, which are members of Nato,” he told France 2. “I think that Russia will take advantage of this situation, this tragedy.”

Serhiy Nykyforov, Zelenskyy’s spokesperson, was unequivocal when asked how concerned the president’s office was about global focus shifting to the Middle East: “Our main goal is to draw attention to Ukraine.”

Russian propagandist has a heel turn.

Yevgeniy Satanovsky, a Russian-based publicist who insulted Maria Zakharova after her comments on Israel, for which he was fired by Solovyev from his channel, continued his rants, this time going over Putin’s potential successor, and insulted Medvedev.

Satanovsky has been known to the wider Russian audience for at least a decade, he is a pundit who often appears on the big screen, so his critique of the authorities is actually an interesting turn. Perhaps not all that impactful, but meaningful nonetheless.

If you’re wondering why the news media has trouble covering the war in Ukraine, the Israel-Hamas war, or almost anything else fast moving today, this is a thought provoking thread by The Financial Times chief data reporter. First tweet from the thread, the rest of the thread from the Thread Reader App:

With the proliferation of photos/footage, satellite imagery and map data, forensic video/image analysis and geolocation (~OSINT) has clearly been a key news gathering technique for several years now. A key news gathering technique *completely absent from most newsrooms*. 
Obviously not every journalist should be an OSINT specialist, just as not every journalist is a specialist in combing through financial accounts, or scraping websites, or doing undercover investigations. But any large news org should have *some* OSINT specialists. 
Some of the biggest international news orgs now do have OSINT teams (or similar). @washingtonpost calls theirs “visual forensics”, @nytimes and @FT go with “visual investigations”. But most news orgs, even large ones, still don’t. 
This means that when you have events unfolding rapidly amid a fog of war, most news orgs are still completely reliant on what they’re told by their sources. This isn’t ideal at the best of times, but especially so when different sources are clearly motivated to mislead. 
It was the same during Covid, when everyone was quoting officials talking about things that could easily be checked and sometimes debunked by someone capable of doing their own data analysis. But there weren’t enough of those skills in newsrooms, so unchecked claims abounded. 
Even when newsrooms have built up these resources (whether OSINT or data) the newness of those teams means there’s some initial wariness about relying on new people (often young and not from traditional journalism backgrounds, so considered outsiders) for massive news lines. 
The result is most mainstream news orgs today are either simply not equipped to determine for themselves what’s happening in some of the world’s biggest stories, or lack the confidence to allow their in-house technical specialists to cast doubt on a star reporter’s trusted source 
So you end up with situations where huge, respected news organisations are reporting as fact things that have already been shown by technically adept news gatherers outside newsrooms to be false or at the very least highly uncertain. It’s hugely damaging to trust in journalism. 
Even without an in-house OSINT team, organisations like @bellingcat and @airwars have been around for almost a decade now to assist. With a situation like Gaza/Israel, any time you’re getting a comment from an official spokesperson, you should also be getting a comment from OSINT 

Of course, news orgs also don’t help themselves by insisting on coming out with definitive takes immediately.

I obviously get the desire to be first, and the instinctive dislike of ambiguity.

But in situations like this, surely it’s better to be second and definitively correct? 

Plus, with the sheer amount of footage these days, and the number of OSINT specialists combing through it, we’re often only talking about waiting a few hours. 

I’m sure mainstream media will catch up, but it needs to happen fast in order to retain trust and even relevance, or readers will go elsewhere.

“According to a spokesperson” just doesn’t really cut it when the primary evidence is right there. 

Beyond OSINT, I think the overarching issue is:

There’s an implicit assumption in most of journalism that the only way to find out what’s happening is to ask someone.

For years now it’s been possible to do better than that, but the industry has not fully taken this on board. 

One final thought:

Fact-checks after the fact are inherently limited. “A lie is halfway round the world before the truth has got its boots on”.

Forensic, investigative, truth-seeking work should be a proactive part of breaking news coverage, not a reactive add-on afterwards. 

Here’s Rob Lee’s take on this:

And here’s mine. Overall I think this is largely correct. My major quibble is that both Burn-Murdoch and Lee reduce open source intelligence (OSINT) to doing imagery and visualization analysis. This may be what the term is used as short hand form, but that is NOT what OSINT is. OSINT, more properly open source research, analysis, and assessment is the ability to collect timely and relevant information from open sources in order to answer specific questions to facilitate better decision making. This is what I do. I also am the primary author of one of the Army’s manuals about how a team that does this work should be organize, should operate, and should be utilized by senior leaders at brigade and echelons above brigade. Imagery and visual analysis is important, but reducing or limiting it to that significantly short changes what OSINT should actually be and what its practitioners can actually do.

One final point in regard to last night’s contretemps, this is what Tamir Rice’s mother had to say about Shaun King:

Here’s the whole screen shot:

Screen shot of Tamir Rice's mother's statement regarding Shaun King.

I think that answer’s last night’s bizarre question.

That’s enough for tonight.

Your daily Patron!

There are no new Patron tweets or videos tonight, so here is some adjacent material from the Patron Pet Center in Kyiv’s account.

Open thread!

Reader Interactions

83Comments

  1. 1.

    Another Scott

    I did not mean to get everyone spun up.

    🎵 🎶 🎶 You spin us right ’round, baby, right ’round, like a record, baby… 🎵 🎶 🎶

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  2. 2.

    Mr. Bemused Senior

    Adam, I imagine it’s a relief to many here to see you today, myself included. Thanks as ever.

  3. 3.

    Anne Laurie

    Adam, I just want to share the general consensus: I am *VERY* glad to see your post tonight, as I am every night!

    (I don’t often comment, because I don’t know enough / you’ve already answered my questions, but I *am* a faithful reader.)

    Also, you just saved the commentariat from a whole lengthy late-night post of Shaun King abuse tweets from Black Twitter, which I have been stockpiling for my own amusement…)

  4. 4.

    Adam L Silverman

    Everyone is most welcome. And I appreciate the kind words, but I inarticulately wrote a frustrated reply comment and went to bed. So, again, I’m sorry if folks got upset because I didn’t express myself clearly.

  5. 5.

    Alison Rose

    I was 99.9% sure we would see you tonight, Adam, but of course am glad to have the remaining .1 confirmed.

    Dang, that TOS-1A kaboom was impressive! Yippie-kai-yay, motherfucker. But in russian.

    Ukraine will not break

    Was always true, will always be true. And yet putin will never understand it or accept it or believe it. He’ll go to his grave not believing it, and hopefully soon.

    Touch not the cat bot a glove!

    Also Shaun King is a fraud in every other way so it would not surprise me in the least if his “my real dad is Black” thing was also BS. Honestly, it wouldn’t surprise me if King was actually an AI pretending to be human.

    Thank you as always, Adam.

  7. 7.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Anne Laurie:

    Also, you just saved the commentariat from a whole lengthy late-night post of Shaun King abuse tweets from Black Twitter, which I have been stockpiling for my own amusement…)

    Feel free to fire away. Just know that if you accurately represent what Black people have to say about Shaun King, then someone may subtly try to insinuate something about you in a comment.

  8. 8.

    Yarrow

    @Anne Laurie: I’d read that. Black Twitter on Shaun King is hilarious and brutal. Especially the women of Black Twitter. They bring cargo ships full of receipts on that grifting fraud.

    @Adam L Silverman:  So glad to see your post. Thank you as always.

    The OSINT Thread reader and your take are interesting. I hadn’t made the connection as to how mainstream media wasn’t using OSINT effectively and how they were reporting in general. That Thread Reader thread puts it together. Appreciate your insight as well.

  9. 9.

    Anne Laurie

    @Adam L Silverman: Just know that if you accurately represent what Black people have to say about Shaun King, then someone may subtly try to insinuate something about you in a comment.

    ‘Subtly’ — now that’s funny, Adam!

  10. 10.

    Yarrow

    @Adam L Silverman: That commenter clearly hasn’t ever paid much attention to Black Twitter because they’ve been on top of just how much of a grifting fraud that guy is for years. Probably at least a decade.

  12. 12.

    Gin & Tonic

    I appreciate your explanation of how OSINT works and what it entails. The problem pointed to by Burn-Murdoch and Lee afflicts not just journalism but government as well. I think I’ve pointed out before, that the three-letter agencies are limited in the channels they can explore, so private-sector analysts are often way ahead of the game, and are sometimes even preparing reports/data for the TLA’s. I know this isn’t new to you, but there are a lot of lay people who don’t understand this.

  13. 13.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Gin & Tonic: I’m sort of a unicorn in terms of what I do. I have the broadest possibly understanding of OSINT, have the alphabet soup after my name, and either have done it for the government on civilian mobilization orders or as a contractor. And for almost 20 years everyone has gone out of their way not to call what I do cultural intelligence or strategic intelligence. Instead we use cultural operations; social science research, analysis, and assessment; strategic and net assessment.

  14. 14.

    Nukular Biskits

    Adam, how on earth do you manage to pull together so much information EVERY SINGLE DAY and still have time for career, family and sleep?!?!?!?

    Well done, informative and, as always, thanks!

  15. 15.

    frosty

    Glad to see you here tonight, Adam. I didn’t get too spun up, bailing certainly didn’t sound like your MO. I read these updates every night and am glad you can find the time to do them. Hopefully the need for them will end before too long.

    ETA The OSINT info was eye-opening and a good backgrounder on why the MSM seems so useless.

  16. 16.

    Adam L Silverman

    @frosty: The MSM has multiple massive issues. This is an important one, but there are others as if not more important problems that also need to be addressed.

  17. 17.

    Princess

    @Anne Laurie: oooo, I really want to see that post. I love Shaun King takedowns.

    And I’m grateful as always. Adam, for your post. You owe us nothing and every post is a gift. I thought the discussion of OSINT and news was especially illuminating.

  19. 19.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Nukular Biskits: I’m not actually a real person. I’m actually a sentient synthetic life form that transmits these posts from 1,000 years in the future.

    I suggest you avoid crosswalks tomorrow. Just you, everyone else on here is fine.

  20. 20.

    TheMightyTrowel

    So I’m an academic researcher and in this role I’ve done a decent amount of interacting with journalists. One of the things from that thread that really sums up the problems I’ve had with journalists is the sentence “There’s an implicit assumption in most of journalism that the only way to find out what’s happening is to ask someone.” From a researcher perspective, just asking is great, but it’s only one data point AND you have to know (a) who to ask, (b) what to ask/how to phrase the question, (c) how to interpret the answer in light of (a) and (b). I don’t see a lot of evidence that the journalists I interact with give any of that much thought – or have been trained to think along those lines. in my field we do both social research (including interviews) and scientific data analysis – both are great and both are important, but both have limitations. Journalists need more training in those limitations. This is why researchers work in teams.

  23. 23.

    lashonharangue

    @Gin & Tonic: The comments about the use of OSINT in news rooms sounds familiar to how mostly women analysts in the CIA during the 90s could not get heard about the threat from Islamic terrorists.  They were not focused on using assets within these groups.  Rather they were developing new methods to track their activities from multiple other sources. In the CIA  at the time, the case officers (men) were the elite since they cultivated/recruited the foreign assets. In most news rooms, the reporters with exclusive access to human sources are the stars. Interesting parallel. For more on this listen to this recent podcast about a new book.

    https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/chatter-the-secret-history-of-women-at-the-cia-with-liza-mundy

  25. 25.

    BeautifulPlumage

    @Yarrow:  you say this better than I would and I also very much appreciate Adam finding these bits and adding his perspective:

    The OSINT Thread reader and your take are interesting. I hadn’t made the connection as to how mainstream media wasn’t using OSINT effectively and how they were reporting in general. That Thread Reader thread puts it together. Appreciate your insight as well.

  32. 32.

    Josie

    Adam, it’s good to see you back. I never comment on your threads, but I always read them and so appreciate all the information you give us. I feel that I am much better informed about Ukraine than most people I know, due to your writing.​

  34. 34.

    Jay

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Sebastian

    OCTOBER 21, 2023 AT 11:54 PM

    Thank you, Adam.

    I was wondering about something and hoping you can add some color to it:

    With the destruction of helicopter airfields and KA-52 attack helicopters, which were a huge pain in the ass to Ukrainian armor, do you believe we will see a change in tactics on the front? How much does ATACMS forcing KA-52s airbases to be further away affect the operational efficiency, if at all?

  35. 35.

    Sister Golden Bear

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    One of the things from that thread that really sums up the problems I’ve had with journalists is the sentence “There’s an implicit assumption in most of journalism that the only way to find out what’s happening is to ask someone.”

    Which is hugely ironic, because one of the initial dictums in journalism — at least back in the day when I was a reporter — was “If your mother says she loves you, check it out.”

    Albeit “the code is more what you’d call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules.” Especially when under heavy workloads — which I’m sure have gotten worse — and/or tight deadlines.

  36. 36.

    Aussie Sheila

    Once again, thank you Adam. I read your posts, but almost never comment. I am grateful for your work and for being able to keep abreast of the developments in the Ukrainian struggle against Russian aggression. May this terrible war be over soon, and may Ukraine liberate all its sovereign territory, including of course, Crimea.

  38. 38.

    Sebastian

    I am glad you are not gone, Adam. I was quite worried there for a bit.

    As to the helicopters:

    IIRC the Ka-52 were a major pain in the behind for Ukrainian armor, forcing them to switch to infantry only advances. Do you think the recent destruction of several Ka-52 and supporting vehicles and the threat of ATACMS, forcing the Russians to establish heli bases even further from the front, is going to have an impact on Ukraine’s tactics or the balance of power along the front?

  40. 40.

    J. Arthur Crank (fka Jerzy Russian)

    I am wondering why Mr. King doesn’t do something more respectable and more productive with his time, like lighting his farts on fire, for example.

  41. 41.

    cain

    @TheMightyTrowel: These are great points. I think we’ve come very non-serious and don’t put in the kind of work that’s required to really explore the space.

    We are at the “reality tv” stage of journalism right now. I’m hoping that editors and newspapers actually want that kind of journalism. I personally think some of these folks are being paid way more for the trite they put out.

  44. 44.

    Anoniminous

    @TheMightyTrowel: ​
     

    “There’s an implicit assumption in most of journalism that the only way to find out what’s happening is to ask someone.”

    Because anecdotal evidence is always your best source.

    Have any of those dumb ass f***heads taken a Critical Thinking Class?

  45. 45.

    Carlo Graziani

    @Anoniminous: Critical thinking is not some training that you get by taking a class. It’s a way of leading one’s life that one learns after deciding to fuck up less often.

  46. 46.

    Anoniminous

    Mark Summers has an excellent article on the Ukrainian use and development of drone weapons and the wider implications.

    The tl;dr version: the US Navy and Air Force are obsolescent.

  47. 47.

    cain

    I had to go back and read last nights thread to understand the gist. Yowzers, glad it was not what was intended.

    As for Shaun King, seriously – what is the matter with that man?

    I can see why though – the young woman former hostage has an image that social media would love and whose imagery can easily be used to raise more funds. I just don’t understand why he thinks that he wouldn’t find be found out? Sometimes it seems that the internet just creates better ways to grift.

  48. 48.

    cain

    OK, my last post on balloon-juice:

    There is this restaurant that I’m dying to try out. It’s called

    ‘Pho King Good’

    I hope it’s as good as it implies. Those who know how Pho is supposed to be pronounced would get a kick out of this one. :)

  49. 49.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Anoniminous: A number of bloggers and twitterers whom I follow, have been banging this drum, and Mark Sumner is one of them.  Kos is another.  The only saving grace I can see from this entire Ukraine debacle, is that it’s our *allies* who are doing the innovation.  I mean, it’s a small consolation,  with so many of them dying and all.  But it’s something, I guess.

    Imagine if it were our enemies doing the innovation, slaug…. ok, I’ll stop now.  Sigh.

  51. 51.

    Jay

    @Anoniminous:

    as we all know, “reporters” have lists of “contacts”. Something happens, and they go to their “contacts”, sometimes they are “fed” by their “contacts”. Sometimes a “news story” is just a paid promotion, or a press release.

    Quite often their “best” “contacts” are the ones that “feed” them the most, and also quite often, they conceal the identity of their “contact” as an “anon” or by name, with out revealing that they are a “Local Rethug Chairman” or a Private Military Contractor”.

    They only critical thinking they engage in is will the owners be pleased, does it align with my bias or lack of morals, can I save the best parts for my book, and can I hide my complicity?

  52. 52.

    Devore

    One question or observation.   While there’s no shortage of discussion on why Germany isn’t sending one armament or another to Ukraine.   What about France?    Seems like we never hear about France not sending something.   For example, why doesn’t France send a bunch of Mirage jets to Ukraine?  Aren’t the French and German economies roughly in the same ballpark.

  53. 53.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Devore: I surely don’t know the details.  But FR sent SCALPs, Cesars, etc.  So there’s that.  The problem with Mirage jets, like with Gripens, F16s, Typhoons, etc, is the logistical tail.  So gynormous.

    Again, I don’t know the details.  I could be completely wrong.  *completely wrong*.

  54. 54.

    sab

    So so so glad you are not gone. Also too, anything nasty you can say about a guy grifting off of Tamir Rice is fine with me. Indeed, how does Shaun King sleep at night?

  56. 56.

    Shalimar

    It doesn’t seem like there would be a big overlap between the weapons Ukraine needs to fight an army and the weapons Israel needs to level a city with terrorists in tunnels underneath.  And both are a rounding error for the US military’s budget.

  57. 57.

    Andrya

    @cain:   With all respect,  I have to object to comparing the Electoral College to a community college.  In retirement, I teach math at a California community college- and though it is not perfect (I’m planning to snarl at IT security tomorrow morning) it is rational, constructive, does great stuff, expands opportunities for our students, and makes the world better.

  59. 59.

    Shalimar

    @Jay: King’s “charity” pays him $250k a year.  It’s disgusting how well he does from being a lying freak.

  60. 60.

    sab

    @Andrya: My sister’s sister-in-law immigrated from China with a university degree in voice and piano, found it not useful, went to community college to start a career change and ended up a successful civic engineer. She builds stuff.

    I had a law degree, wanted a career change, went to community college and took the best accounting course I ever had, and have had a thirty year career in public accounting that I never could have had without community college.

  61. 61.

    Jay

    @Devore:

    France has provided air defence, arty, APC’s. tank destroyers, ammo, ATGMs, AARMs and long range cruise missile systems. They are one of the first NATO responders to Ukraine “asks”.

    They have also spent “some time in the barrel”, but,

    At the end of the Cold War, France spent most of their military budget on developing high tech, air portable weapons for deployments to their former Colonies.

    https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/07/arms-for-ukraine-french-weapon.html

    This list is over a year old.

    Sadly, Oryx has stopped updating

    While Germany has over a thousand Leopard 2’s in storage, France has 22 Le Clerks in storage/repair, at best they could send a single squadron, (22 tanks), (10%) of their operational tanks.

    As for Mirages, France has significant number in storage, but,……….. there are two versions, a light fighter, and a long range fighter/bomber. While they surpass Cold War fighters, they are less capable against current front line fighters than Ukrainian MIG 29’s.

  62. 62.

    sab

    One of my big rules in commenting is to never speak ill or criticize at all about a front pager. They work so hard for free. Not hard to keep my rule with Adam. But just saying.

  63. 63.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Jay: I think one thing is that Ukraine has been pretty relentlessly focused on the highest-value things they can get from each partner.  So for fighters, it’s the US and F16s.  From Germany, Taurus missiles.  etc.  From France, I don’t know what, b/c honestly, they’ve delivered the stuff they can.  Maybe at this point, it’s arty shells.

    But I think the real reason UA is pushing DE, is … “Taurus, man, we need to knock down the Kerch bridge!”

  66. 66.

    sab

    @Chetan Murthy: I had a lovely dog, named Slick, who at age two jumped up and ate a fresh baked pie cooling on my stovetop. I baked another pie and she jumped up and ate that too. (I am a slow learner.) Pie number three cooled on top of the fridge.

  67. 67.

    sab

    Years ago I read an article, I think in the Atlantic, by a failed academic who couldn’t get a university job, whining about his community college students. My reaction was ” those poor kids. This teacher sucks.”

    My community college teachers were not failed academics. They were successful professionals giving back to their communities.

  68. 68.

    Shalimar

    @sab: I went to 2 universities, a junior college, and law school.  My most memorable teachers were from the junior college.  More interesting personally and more varied life experiences.  More direct contact with helping students too.

  70. 70.

    cain

    @Andrya:

    Sorry if I triggered you. When I used community college I refer to its smaller size not it’s value. Community college is an excellent option to many and I have taken many non degree classes there.

    The electoral college has a large role rather have a smaller one when electing a president.

  71. 71.

    cain

    @sab: but you are allowed to beat me up. Please folks I insist that you divert everything to me  I have a drinking game already lined up

  73. 73.

    sab

    Well, we certainly messed up Adam’s Ukraine thread. Serves him right for scaring us last night, but not helpful for Ukraine.

  76. 76.

    Chetan Murthy

    @Shalimar:

    My most memorable teachers were from the junior college.

    I  went to Rice and  Cornell: and learned a ton at both places.  They helped create me as a professional computer scientist.  But I still remember my history and econ courses at Weatherford College,  where I learned about the Dunning School, and “there are two conservative parties in America”.  It was the beginning of my awakening to the reality of America.  Sure didn’t learn anything about that in high school (right down the hill from Weatherford College).

  77. 77.

    Shalimar

    @Chetan Murthy: My economics teacher in junior college was a retired Russian translator for the State Department.  I ended up getting a minor in economics later in part because of his classes.  And my teacher in the one history course I took (I later got a degree) was very big on teaching actual American history, not the bullshit American exceptionalism in the textbook.

  78. 78.

    evodevo

    @glc: ​
      A good essay on one instance of Xtian hypocrisy…but notice, he doesn’t mention DeathSantis and his war on education in FL, nor confront WHY the ongoing sex scandals continue to plague the SBC and talibangelicals or anything about megachurch grifters and their so-called “prosperity gospel”… I want to hear what he has to say about that…

  79. 79.

    wjca

    There’s an implicit assumption in most of journalism that the only way to find out what’s happening is to ask someone.

    For years now it’s been possible to do better than that, but the industry has not fully taken this on board.

    That assumption is actually relatively new.  Time was, reporters on scene spoke about** what they saw and heard themselves.  Information from others wasn’t the story; it was a lead to go and get the story first hand.  They might use photographs or documents as data, and even include them in support of the story.

    Relying exclusively on “what somebody, supposedly an authority, says” is just lazy.  The news business needs to get back to its roots on this.

    ** Reported! What a shocking idea!

  80. 80.

    Paul in KY

    Oh, you didn’t leave us! Yay! I knew some nobody like ‘Trucmat’ couldn’t run off the mighty Silverman! Huzzah!

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