Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Peak wingnut was a lie.

Donald Jessica Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

It’s pointless to bring up problems that can only be solved with a time machine.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

I’d try pessimism, but it probably wouldn’t work.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

Perhaps you mistook them for somebody who gives a damn.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Fani Willis claps back at Trump chihuahua, Jim Jordan.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

“woke” is the new caravan.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War for Ukraine Day 649: The Disappeared

War for Ukraine Day 649: The Disappeared

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Art by NEIVANMADE of a Ukrainian painted black and outlined in blood red kneeling in grief with hands covering the face surrounded by the bodies of Ukrainians killed by Russians on a grey background. "Russia Is Committing Genocide Right Now" is across the top center of the image.

(Image by NEIVANMADE)

The Kyiv Independent has the details of the Ukrainians that the Russians have disappeared: (emphasis mine)

In the early days of the full-scale invasion as Russian troops were occupying large swaths of territory outside of Kyiv, one local village resident was relieved to see what he thought were Ukrainian troops.

The resident, Ivan Drozd, shouted the common Ukrainian salute “Slava Ukraini!” (Glory to Ukraine!) to the soldiers, not realizing they were Moscow’s invading forces.

The Russian troops immediately arrested Drozd on the spot, his partner Hanna Mushtukova told the Kyiv Independent, citing a fellow villager who was arrested with Drozd but later released.

More than 18 months later, Mushtukova doesn’t know anything of Drozd’s whereabouts, except for a short four-letter letter she received months after he wrote from a Russian prison.

“Alive. Healthy. Not sick,” the letter reads, Mushtukova told the Kyiv Independent. She hinted he may have been forced to write the letter that way.

Along with war crimes, such as torture, rape, and executions, Russia has also taken civilian hostages in the areas it has occupied, at times transferring them to prisons both in Russian-occupied Ukrainian territory and Russia for reasons unknown. The hostages include people taken off the streets, psychiatric patients, and inmates of Ukrainian prisons now under Russian-occupied territories.

Russia exploits international law loopholes to keep these Ukrainians locked up. Ukraine cannot easily exchange them as prisoners of war, as it would jeopardize millions living under occupation, creating the perpetual threat that any civilian in occupied territory could become a hostage, human rights defenders and officials have warned.

The precise count of adult Ukrainians Russia ensnared as civilian hostages remains elusive.

Ukraine’s Reintegration Ministry says there are 763 civilian hostages in Russia and Russian-occupied areas, while the country’s Ombudsman’s Office puts the number at 20,000. Human rights defenders sharply contest these official figures, suggesting they could be as high as 8,000.

“I’m very afraid that the 8,000 missing civilians include those whom we will never find,” Olga Romanova, the exiled head of Russia Behind Bars, a prominent Russian NGO protecting convicts’ rights, told the Kyiv Independent.

“I vividly remember rapidly shrinking lists of missing civilians as all of those mass graves were discovered after Izium’s liberation.”

Drozd was a 28-year-old farmer with no military experience when he was captured and imprisoned by the Russian troops. His partner Mushtukova has no information on his exact whereabouts.

“I’m counting the days. But the uncertainty and anticipation of the unknown are hard to wrap my head around,” Mushtukova said.

Holding “civilian hostages” constitutes a war crime along with violating several other conventions Russia could be brought to justice for, said Mikhail Savva, a Russian-born legal expert at the Ukrainian human rights organization Center for Civil Liberties.

“If there are no charges against civilians, every party to the Geneva Conventions is obliged to return them as soon as possible,” Savva, a former Russian political prisoner, told the Kyiv Independent.

He said Russia exploits this loophole phrase in the Geneva Convention to keep Ukrainian civilians in legal limbo.

“We can say Russia has a system of war crimes against Ukrainian civilians. Holding a civilian (in custody) for a long term without legal authorization is a war crime of deprivation of liberty and access to justice,” he said.

Meanwhile, Yatsenko, a spokesperson for Ukraine HQ for POWs Treatment, said Russia often does not bother to count “civilian hostages.”

“It hinders finding them while all the powers of the penitentiary system are applied with inhumane traditions of the Soviet Union and Tsarist Russia,” said Yatsenko.

Much more at the link.

Here is President Zelenskyy’s address from earlier today. Video below, English transcript after the jump.

The Assembly of the International Maritime Organization adopted a resolution in support of our efforts in the Black Sea – address by the President of Ukraine

4 December 2023 – 22:26

I wish you health, fellow Ukrainians!

First of all, I would like to recognize the warriors of our mobile firing groups today.

Last night alone, during the latest “shahed” attack, 18 drones were destroyed. That’s the majority. And most of those destroyed were the result of mobile firing groups. This is how it should be. I thank everyone who trains the warriors of such groups and who works to provide them with everything they need. Last night, the mobile firing groups in Mykolaiv, Kherson, Ivano-Frankivsk and Kirovohrad regions worked well. I am grateful to you guys personally, and to everyone else who is on duty every day and every night in various regions.

I would also like to recognize the Air Force servicemen – our pilots, engineers, anti-aircraft gunners and air defense units of the Ground Forces. Warriors, your vigilance and accuracy are the resilience of our entire country and our cities.

Today marks an important result for Ukraine on the international stage as well. Particularly in the International Maritime Organization, which last week removed Russia from its governing bodies. Today, the Assembly of the International Maritime Organization adopted a resolution in support of our efforts in the Black Sea – Ukraine’s success in restoring navigation and establishing a new “grain corridor”. By the way, this export corridor has already yielded results – more than 7 million tons of cargo. And this is very significant – it is our economy. It’s not just the work of ports and agrarians, but also of many other related industries. Millions of jobs in Ukraine depend on the exports that our country is able to provide. I extend gratitude to everyone worldwide who assists Ukraine in this matter. In particular, the International Maritime Organization will now support our efforts, and there is a corresponding decision to assess the technical assistance we need for the proper functioning of the sea corridor.

Our railway system is also showing good results. In November alone, Ukrzaliznytsia transported 14 million tons of cargo. This is a record figure since the beginning of the full-scale war, and we are observing railway’s excellent performance in both export and import directions, as well as domestic transportation. I am grateful to the entire team of Ukrzaliznytsia, all our transport workers, each and every individual working in Ukrainian ports, and all those countries and peoples who genuinely support the European Solidarity Lanes created to aid the nation opposing aggression.

Today I heard a report from the Chief of Foreign Intelligence, Oleksandr Lytvynenko. An important and relevant information on what Ukraine should expect and prepare for. I also held a meeting with international relations officials on our foreign policy communications in December: we are planning an active agenda for each week of this month. We also anticipate important agreements with our partners by the end of the year. The priority remains unchanged – strengthening the state, protecting our people, and bolstering our positions in everything. And I am grateful to all those who do not put their personal interests above the interests of the Ukrainian state. Those who are fighting, working, and aiding.

Glory to Ukraine!

For those of you marking Advent on your calendars this season:

Ukrainian Advent Calendar: Day 4

Today, we would like to say thank you to our Australian friends at @DefenceAust. Despite the significant distance between our countries, we are bonded by shared democratic values. We are particularly grateful for the Bushmaster MRAPs that were provided to #UAarmy.

In September 2022, Bushmasters played a critical role in a successful counter-offensive in the Kharkiv region. Because of its resistance to mine explosions, this vehicle saves the lives of Ukrainian warriors. Also, maneuverability and passability are important for the performance of combat tasks.

Stay tuned for more Weapons of Victory in our Advent Calendar tomorrow.

 

Had an important meeting with @NATO Secretary General @jensstoltenberg

in Brussels. I am grateful to Mr. Stoltenberg for his leadership and coordination of the Alliance’s work to ensure long-term support for Ukraine.

We discussed the situation on the battlefield and the urgent needs of Ukraine during the winter period.

The Ministry of Defence is working to ensure the Defence Forces’ interoperability with NATO.
Ukraine’s membership in NATO is inevitable. Our country chose that path a long time ago. We are working on practical steps to bring our country closer to NATO membership.

The Financial Times reports that the US will run out of appropriated funding for Ukraine by the end of the month: (emphasis mine)

The White House has issued a blunt warning that the US is set to run out of funds to aid Ukraine by the end of the year, saying that a failure by Congress to approve new support would “kneecap” Kyiv.

The alert from Shalanda Young, the White House budget director, in a letter to congressional leaders on Monday, represented the most specific assessment yet of Washington’s waning financial and military support for Ukraine.

“Without congressional action, by the end of the year we will run out of resources to procure more weapons and equipment for Ukraine and to provide equipment from US military stocks,” Young wrote to political leaders of both parties.

“There is no magical pot of funding available to meet this moment. We are out of money — and nearly out of time.”

President Joe Biden’s request for $106bn in emergency funding for his biggest foreign policy priorities, including Ukraine, Israel and the Indo-Pacific, remains mired in stalemate on Capitol Hill, driven by mounting Republican opposition to helping Kyiv.

Some lawmakers — especially in the Senate, where backing for Ukraine runs deeper — are trying to negotiate a bipartisan deal that would contain aid for Kyiv alongside new immigration and asylum procedures to reduce the number of undocumented people arriving in the US through its southern border.

But those talks appear to be faltering. On Monday, one person familiar with the talks said Republicans had hardened their demands on immigration to the point that Democrats could not support them. Among the proposals floated by Republicans were detention camps at US military bases, and prolonged detention for children, the person said, adding that they echoed the ideas of Stephen Miller, former president Donald Trump’s aide on immigration.

Even if an agreement is reached in the Senate, it is unclear if it can pass the Republican-led House, whose new Speaker Mike Johnson has been sceptical of funding for Ukraine.

On Monday, Johnson also linked additional Ukraine aid to Democrats agreeing more funding for US-Mexico border security.

“The Biden administration has failed to substantively address any of my conference’s legitimate concerns about the lack of a clear strategy in Ukraine, a path to resolving the conflict, or a plan for adequately ensuring accountability for aid provided by American taxpayers,” said Johnson in a statement.

“We believe both issues can be agreed upon if Senate Democrats and the White House will negotiate reasonably,” Johnson added.

Young warned Congress that cutting the flow of US weapons and equipment would “kneecap Ukraine on the battlefield, not only putting at risk the gains Ukraine has made, but increasing the likelihood of Russian military victories”.

“Already, our packages of security assistance have become smaller and the deliveries of aid have become more limited . . . while our allies around the world have stepped up to do more, US support is critical and cannot be replicated by others,” she added.

The White House warning comes as EU member states are struggling to reach a budget deal in Brussels that would send €50bn to Ukraine, people close to the discussions told the Financial Times.

Young said Ukraine also needed economic support, which is in danger of stalling.

“If Ukraine’s economy collapses, they will not be able to keep fighting, full stop,” she wrote. “[Russian President Vladimir] Putin understands this well, which is why Russia has made destroying Ukraine’s economy central to its strategy — which you can see in its attacks against Ukraine’s grain exports and energy infrastructure.”

More at the link!

Which explains this preemptive finger pointing:

That is not the statement you make when you are trying to build support, it is the statement you make to start assigning blame because you know the bill won’t get out of the House rules committee to come to a floor vote or, if it does, it won’t pass.

All of this was preventable. All of this is at the feet of the President and his senior national security appointees who have consistently and repeatedly failed to act with any sense of strategic haste. As a result they have repeatedly failed to meet the moment for what it is. Rather than securing what was necessary when the had Democratic majorities in both chambers, the Biden administration repeatedly stated they would be able to come back and get more for Ukraine in a supplemental bill. That strategy, which has been limping along, is less than two weeks from complete failure as Congress is preparing to go on its Christmas and New Years recess. Unfortunately the people that have been and will continue to suffer for this strategic malpractice are the Ukrainians. They will not be the only ones. Putin and his people can read. They know that their strategy to pursue time is working. Putin will not stop with Ukraine because he now knows that the US, the EU, and NATO will not do even the easiest and least costly things to stop him. The Baltics are next. Article 5 will not save them, Putin has probed NATO and found mush.

Speaking of the EU:

Here’s a different picture of that Christmas tree in Bakhmut that I posted last night:

Most likely the left bank of the Dnipro, Russian occupied Kherson Oblast:

Stepove, Avdiivka Front:

 

Olekshi Forest, left bank of the Dnipro, Russian occupied Kherson Oblast:

Yahidne, Kharkiv Oblast:

Russian occupied Luhansk Oblast:

For you logistics and acquisitions enthusiasts:

That’s enough for today.

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A new video from Patron’s official TikTok:

@patron__dsns

👹 vs 😇 #песпатрон

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Open thread!

Reader Interactions

53Comments

  2. 2.

    hrprogressive

    So does this mean the West has no appetite to actually help Ukraine win (as opposed to “not lose”), Putin, emboldened, will now just plow his way through the rest of what he believes (in his own deluded mind) “rightly belongs to Russia”, NATO and the West will watch helplessly, and that’s the ball game?

    Putin and Authoritarianism win worldwide because…the rest of the world kept saying “it can’t happen here” as it happened Everywhere, All At Once?

    Too bleak an assessment or…?

  3. 3.

    Jay

    Euromaidan Press
    @EuromaidanPress
    11h
    Due to the border blockade by the Polish & Slovakian protesters & the Hungarian ban, it now takes 2 weeks to deliver military cargo from the EU to Ukraine

    Ukrainian servicemen and volunteer Madiar, who is currently delivering boats, explained the situation⬇️ More: euromaidanpress.com/2023/12/…

    there is video,

    https://nitter.net/EuromaidanPress/status/1731659144476655789#m

    Karel Burger Dirven
    @KBurgerDirven
    Dec 3
    About 20 years ago, the EU borders were opened to truck drivers from PL & Baltics. The result: stiff competition for NL and D truck drivers. Yet they did not block the borders with PL. The Polish, Slovak & Hungarian police must end the blockades now! 2/nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/12/03/kou…

    https://nitter.net/KBurgerDirven/status/1731344179081392151#m

  6. 6.

    Alison Rose

    It is supremely disturbing that there are so many people around the world who simply don’t care if other people die. You never know how many sociopaths you share the world with until there is a call for empathy and all you hear back are the echoes off the walls.

    Thank you as always, Adam.

  7. 7.

    Adam L Silverman

    @hrprogressive: It means we’ve done far less than we needed to and done it far too slowly. Putin is not yet in a position to move quickly beyond what he’s doing in Ukraine. But if the aid does not get to Ukraine – equipment, ammunition, material, and money – then he will eventually grind the Ukrainians down because he has far, far more bodies he can throw at them and he does not care what happens to those bodies. If that becomes the case, then he’ll consolidate his gains and eventually those numbers will overwhelm the Ukrainians.  Should be be successful in doing so, he will eventually turn his attention to Moldova and the Baltics.

  10. 10.

    Martin

    While I think it’s reasonable to criticize Biden for not taking the opportunity when he had it, if the US stops supporting Ukraine, the real fault falls entirely on the Speaker of the House who needs to do nothing more than put a bill on the floor and let a bipartisan bill pass.

    Biden can’t control Congress, but putting a bill on the floor of the House is literally the most basic responsibility of his job. His insistence on a bill only the GOP will pass is a threshold entirely of their own making, and that has consequences far behind Ukraine.

  13. 13.

    Alison Rose

    @Comrade Bukharin: Criticizing someone for missteps and flaws does not mean not supporting that person. I doubt there is anyone here who doesn’t want Biden reelected. But wanting someone reelected doesn’t mean pretending they’re perfect and that they have zero room for improvement

    ETA jinx

  16. 16.

    ColoradoGuy

    It is also rewards Putin for carrying out KGB-style domestic subversion, most of all subverting the Republican Party. The same party that accused the Democrats of “losing China” and “soft on Communism” is the one that has fallen under the control of Russian disinformation and influence campaigns.

    It makes me wonder just how long the Russians have controlled Rupert Murdoch and Trump. Several decades, I suspect.

  17. 17.

    Jay

    Saint Javelin
    @saintjavelin
    17h
    The Azovstal defenders are spending their 2nd year in russian captivity. Thousands of families are waiting on them but russia doesn’t seem very keen on releasing them in exchange for their own POWs.

    Yesterday, hundreds of people in Kyiv walked on the main street to remind everyone about the Azovstal defenders and advocate for their release.

    Photo: @kztsky

    https://nitter.net/saintjavelin/status/1731586688470704407#m

    Rae 🇦🇺🌻 @[email protected]
    @RaeCattach
    20h
    How Putin’s troops are raping and torturing Ukrainian men as well as women: Horrors endured by male prisoners are revealed, and it is feared many more victims will be uncovered. Article below… mol.im/a/12593869 via @MailOnline

    https://nitter.net/RaeCattach/status/1731532886724219131#m

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12593869/How-Putins-troops-raping-torturing-Ukrainian-MEN-women-Horrors-endured-male-prisoners-revealed-feared-victims-uncovered.html

  18. 18.

    hrprogressive

    @Adam L Silverman: ​
     

    Do you think he’ll be successful?

    Because the updates you’ve been sharing don’t paint a picture that suggest he’ll be anything *but* successful.

  19. 19.

    Nukular Biskits

    Adam, like you, I am frustrated by the lack of momentum on the part of the US government to provide Ukraine with the materiel it needs.  And, as much as I like and support President Biden, I do have to reluctantly agree that his desire to get a bipartisan deal out of Congress is partly to blame here.

  20. 20.

    Andrya

    @Adam L Silverman:   And not only Moldova and the Baltics.  putin is a complete revanchist- “any territory that russia ever controlled, we have a sacred right to regain”- and that puts both Finland and Poland in his cross-hairs if (G-d forbid) he prevails in Ukraine.  The Finns know this, and are well-prepared  and armed to the teeth.  It’s the Poles that puzzle me.  Do they not see their danger?  Do they think if they sabotage aid to Ukraine, that NATO will still rush to their defense when they are on the chopping block?

  21. 21.

    Lyrebird

    Someone put together a post, I don’t know if it was on DKos or in a fundraising email, but I can’t find it, listing the congressional districts that will lose money if we stop sending equipment and replenishing US stocks.  Ohio,  Texas, lots of states.  I hope someone can do a publicity tour to add to the pressure.

  27. 27.

    Bill Arnold

    @Andrya:

    “any territory that russia ever controlled, we have a sacred right to regain”

    Russia is Homo neanderthalensis territory.

  28. 28.

    Another Scott

    @Martin: We’ll see.  The details matter.

    Senate Democrats have said that the GQPers trying to roll HR-2 into the supplemental is a non-starter.

    The Senate gets a vote too.

    To be clear – What gets through the House will have a lot of momentum behind it.  But the details still matter, and what happens in the Senate can matter.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  31. 31.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Andrya: Duda sees the danger. I don’t think Putin will move on either Finland or Poland until/unless he is able to take Ukraine and then the Baltics and Moldova.

  32. 32.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Villago Delenda Est: I am aware. But that is, unfortunately, where the GOP is as a party and a socio-political, socio-economic, and socio-religious movement too. Because of the differences in Senate terms, the Senate GOP caucus is not fully captured yet, but it is getting there and will be there within the next two or three elections.

  33. 33.

    hrprogressive

    @Adam L Silverman: ​
    That’s good, and I believe that as well. They’ve really proven their mettle.

    But they need more than just thoughts and prayers from the West.

    Thanks for what you do.

  34. 34.

    Andrya

    @Adam L Silverman: I have read from multiple sources that Poland is cutting off aid to Ukraine.  (link)   WTF?  As well as the trucker thing.  I admit I don’t really understand the division of authority between the Polish Prime Minister and President- if anyone more knowledgeable could clarify, I would be grateful.

  35. 35.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Andrya: The trucker thing is a Russian backed op. The link you provided is from September. Tusk campaigned on continuing support for Ukraine. But fatigue is definitely setting in. And Russia, of course, is helping it.

  37. 37.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Bill Arnold: The only control they need is to prevent the House from passing any legislation they disapprove of, and they’ve got that right now.  It’s up to the electorate to fix this next November.

  39. 39.

    Bill Arnold

    Re Laura Dubois “Hungary‘s Viktor Orbán has asked @eucopresident to drop Ukraine accession and discussions on the EU budget from the EU summit agenda next week.”, is there anything to this story from 2018(2017)?
    A suitcase full of cash from the Solntsevo Mafia: Does Putin have a video kompromat on the Hungarian leader? ( The Insider (.ru, but USA IP addresses) Anastasia Kirilenko, 7 April 2018)

    Today Vladimir Putin is arriving on an official visit to Hungary, where he will meet Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, one of the European leaders seen as among the most loyal to the Kremlin. As The Insider discovered, one of the reasons for his loyalty might be a video with compromising info on Orbán, filmed back in the mid 1990s by crime kingpin Semyon Mogilevich. As a result, the Russo-Hungarian friendship is growing, while money from joint contracts flow to opaque offshore accounts.
    …
    In 2008, he continued to criticize the Kremlin, calling other European governments “Moscow’s puppets,” and deeming the endorsement of the “South Stream” project by the previous government as high treason.
    Suddenly in 2009, everything changed. Orban unexpectedly showed up at the “United Russia” convention in Saint Petersburg, where he met Putin. He immediately ceased criticizing Russia, and a year later, when Orbán became the Hungarian Prime Minister, he became one of the key Putin apologists in Europe. Whatever happened to Orbán in such a short period of time? Could it be the arrest of criminal kingpin Semyon Mogilevich in Moscow, that influenced the Hungarian leader?

  42. 42.

    Another Scott

    Meanwhile, in local news…

    Christian Flores
    @CFloresNews
    1h

    Arlington County [VA] Police say this all began when officers were dispatched to a home around 4:45 this afternoon for reports of a flare gun being shot out of a home. A neighbor provided us this video of a flare gun going off around that time, plus pictures of the aftermath:

    […]

    Video of the explosion here.

    It’s easy to speculate, but we’ll probably know more in coming days.

    :-(

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  43. 43.

    way2blue

    @Alison Rose:

    Agreed.  The point is to light a fire under Biden, so he whips  public  pressure on Speaker Johnson to bringing the supplemental funding bill to a vote.  (I assume horse trading is going on below the surface, but I wouldn’t bet a beer on it.)

  45. 45.

    wjca

    Thank you again Adam.

    All of this was preventable. All of this is at the feet of the President and his senior national security appointees who have consistently and repeatedly failed to act with any sense of strategic haste. As a result they have repeatedly failed to meet the moment for what it is. Rather than securing what was necessary when the had Democratic majorities in both chambers, the Biden administration repeatedly stated they would be able to come back and get more for Ukraine in a supplemental bill. That strategy, which has been limping along, is less than two weeks from complete failure

    So, given that, what do you think Biden could construtively (and realistically) do NOW?

  46. 46.

    wjca

    @Jay: Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals.

    There may be something dumber than connecting control systems for critical infrastructure to the Internet (which is what allows it to be hacked).  But, short of connecting nuclear weapons firing systems, I’m not sure what it would be.  Yet it seems to have been done routinely.

  48. 48.

    Bill Arnold

    @wjca:

    This is a truly vile slur on the Neanderthals.

    Ah, should have gone with the long version. Sorry.
    Homo sapiens took that land from Homo neanderthalensis. Russians are occupiers, and their ancestors were complicit in genocide. If their are any remnant neanderthal populations, they own Russia. (And most of Europe.) The Denisovans would like a word about Russia’s claims to territory, as well.

  49. 49.

    Andrya

    @Bill Arnold:  One of my relatives (of Finnish, Scottish and Welsh ancestry- no known russian genes) took one of those do-it-at-home genetic tests.  It came back 2% Neanderthal.  I think that’s pretty typical for northern Europeans.  There was undoubtedly violence, but there was also interbreeding.

  50. 50.

    glc

    @Bill Arnold: Seriously maligning the Neanderthals here.

    And I don’t mean that sarcastically. The fact that we replaced them (with a little bit of cross-breeding) is also a data point.

  51. 51.

    Bill Arnold

    @glc:

    Seriously maligning the Neanderthals here.

    Yeah, gave the full thought at #48. I cut the original draft down to where the intent was lost.
    The general point was that absolute claims to land based on ancestry are mostly junk, IMO. Multiple generations of an identifiable dominant culture in the same area is grounds for a reasonable claim, again IMO.
    Neanderthals had, on average, larger brains than modern humans, and parts of the primary visual cortex were probably larger. What was that additional grey matter doing? Interesting things, perhaps. Maybe they could rotate shapes in their mind in 5 dimensions. :-)

  52. 52.

    Bill Arnold

    @Andrya:
    One paper defined a metric they called the “Neanderscore”.
    Yeah, there is considerable academic speculation about how Homo sapiens became dominant.
    The last paragraph of the discussion section this other paper caught my eye a while ago: The Divergence of Neandertal and Modern Human Y Chromosomes (2016) : “It is tempting to speculate that some of these mutations might have led to genetic incompatibilities between modern humans and Neandertals and to the consequent loss of Neandertal Y chromosomes in modern human populations.”

  53. 53.

    Andrya

    @Bill Arnold:   Thanks, I will definitely check out the paper you recommend.

    It seems to me that there are two explanations for the loss of the Neanderthal  y-chromosome.  Genetic incompatibility is one.  A second explanation is the paradigm of ancient warfare- kill the men and seize the women.  (A major theme in the Iliad, for example.)  I’m afraid I think the second is more likely.

Comments are closed.