In Judaism, at the Passover, part of the Seder, the ritual meal, includes recounting the tale of the four sons. Among the four is the simple son. The language here is all sorts of mucked up as it went through multiple languages, most likely Aramaic to Greek and/or Latin to then other European languages, as well as several Hebreo-composite languages (Ladino, Yiddish, Judeo-Arabic, Romaness) and now, for our purposes, into English. In short the simple son is not developmentally disabled, rather he – look this part of the ritual is over a thousand year’s old, of course it’s going to be a he – wants to learn something, but he does not have enough context to formulate his question in the most basic manner. Yesterday, in a comment, this question was asked:
it’s all so complicated. I just want Balloon Juice to be a place where we can think through the situation and talk through the situation, learn something (at least for people like me), and have a safe place to do all of that.
This is what is meant in the ritual formulation of the simple son. Wanting to learn, not quite sure what to ask.
Fortunately for you all we have two front pagers who are Jewish. One with a penchant for writing large tomes, Dutch master painting, and roasted chicken and the other being me. In this case the penchant for writing large tomes, the brushwork of the Dutch masters, nor the best techniques for roasting a chicken are going to be much use. So you’re stuck with me.
I’ve now read Dave Zirin’s column. I think the intention is noble and the emotion is mostly right, but Zirin also fails to properly contextualize what is going on for non-Jewish Americans. As a result, those outside of the community don’t have the context to really make sense of what he has written. The context is that Jewish Americans support for and relationship with Israel has been going through a prolonged set of generational changes. Usually those start among Jewish Americans that are at least a decade younger than me. I’m a bit older than Cole. The short version is that unlike our parents and grandparents we are not reflexively supportive of Israel even if the attempts were made to raise us to be.
My grandparents helped coordinate logistics and supply for the Haganah via their living room in Denver. My parents were, and in the case of my mother still is, strong supporters of Israel. I remember walking in the house after driving up from Miami where I was doing my masters in comparative religion for the weekend and my dad was sitting on one arm of the sofa crying. He looked up, basically made an anguished sound, and gestured wildly at the TV, which was tuned to CNN and was replaying the breaking news over and over that Rabin had been assassinated. I was sent to Jewish day school, where much of even the secular curriculum was oriented not just around Judaism, but also around Israel. Then, of course, I went to a Jesuit high school and a Methodist university.
What’s missing from Zirin’s piece is the context that what had once been a monolithic support for Israel among Jewish Americans ceased to be over the past twenty to thirty years. Some of that was the result of those of us growing up in my generational cohort and the ones after mine not experiencing much, if any, antisemitism. And, as a result, unlike our parents and grandparents, we didn’t feel Israel needed to exist so we had a safe place to escape to. The US was that safe place. Certainly far more than a state constantly under siege. Some of it was watching as Likud’s prime ministers – specifically Begin, Shamir, and Netanyahu – manipulated American politics for their own advantages. And in the case of Bibi it was for his own personal advantage, while for Begin and Shamir it was their advantage on behalf of Israel. Some of it was also recognizing that what we were raised to understand about Judaism as a theology and doctrine was incompatible with how Israel, a state with a majority of Jewish citizens and led by Jews, was treating the Palestinians. As well as other Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis in some cases. A great deal of the attitudinal changes are a combination of all of these.
When you see Jewish groups leading competing demonstrations what you’re seeing is this conflict within the community. Different parts of the Jewish American communities are focusing on different things. Different parts of our theology, our doctrine, our cultural history, our experiences as Americans. This is why some are demonstrating whole hearted support for Israel in the current crisis while others are demanding an immediate ceasefire as Israel’s response should not be justified by Bibi, as he so often does, as necessary to protect Jews everywhere. Hence the “Not in our name!” chants, posters, and t-shirts.
And that’s the context you all need to unpack what Zirin wrote, but which he did not provide. As to whether Balloon Juice, or any other place, is the right place, let alone a safe place to think through and talk through the situation is something I cannot answer. At one level, this is an internal to Judaism issue. We haven’t thought or talked through it as a community, though now we’re screaming at each other about it in public, and we’d appreciate it if those of you outside looking in leave us be because our own history tells us you’ll just make things worse. Thanks for the best wishes, go find a thread about underwater macrame post card music writing in popular culture while watching the ball game or something and leave us out of it.
That’s obviously unrealistic. Everyone wants to talk about what’s going on, make sense of it. From what Hamas actually did, to how it could happen, to what Israel is going to do versus what Israel is going to do. What does this mean for Jews or Arabs or Muslims? What is the US going to do? Etc, etc, etc. There’s no hiding here, but at least I can provide some context.
The reality here is that the two state solution is dead and has been since at least 2013. With the exception of the brief Bennet-Lapid unity government, Israel has been governed by Bibi led coalitions for around fifteen years. Beginning in early 2014, no one in those coalitions – and the 2014 one was nowhere near as extreme as the current one is – has supported a two state solution. In fact they, including Bibi, have opposed the idea. Similarly, the leadership of the Palestinian Authority had basically given up on the idea by 2014 as well. In the latter’s case they believe that demographic reality will eventually solve the problem for them if there was only a one state solution. Hamas, PIJ, and the other extremist groups have never supported the idea. The problem, of course, is that the US policy is to seek a two state solution. Unfortunately, policy cannot ask of strategy that which policy cannot or will not provide: achievable objectives. What we need is a strategy to either move the Israelis and the Palestinians back into willingness to attempt a two state solution or we need a strategy to achieve a one state solution that does not make things worse than the status quo. We have none of those things now. We had none of them in 2014. And we definitely had none of them when Jared was making things worse.
I would appreciate it if just this once that people don’t argue this point with me in the comments. I’m the person who wrote the strategic and policy assessment on this topic in 2014 for my boss the Commanding General of US Army Europe, his boss the Commanding General of EUCOM/the Supreme Allied Commander Europe (who assigned it as the read of the week to his entire command), the Special Envoy for Middle East Peace, and through those three the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State. it included a robust discussion of needing either a strategy to get the Israelis and Palestinians back to a two state track or develop new policy and strategy for a just, equitable one state solution. As an FYI: I also wrote the historic – as in it recounts the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict – introduction for the report and assessment that was produced by US Army Europe for the Departments of Defense and State in support of the 2014 peace process.
No matter what happens as the Israel-Hamas war unfolds, it is not going to get us to a two state solution. Because right now no one on either side wants one.
As for a ceasefire or armistice, calling for one is fine as long as one is realistic and recognizes that it isn’t going to happen as a result of external pressure. The fact that a bare majority of Israelis now want a strategic pause in operations to increase the chances to get the hostages out may lead to that happening, but I wouldn’t put money on it. The only way to prevent what is coming is for the US to assemble an international coalition that includes Arab and Muslim states, put boots on the ground in Gaza, and then both rescue the hostages while dismantling Hamas and bringing its leaders and fighters to justice. NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!!
Like everyone else, you’ll find Jewish Americans on different sides of every social, political, economic, and religious issue regarding both domestic and international politics. The demonstrations you’re seeing now, that Zirin wrote about, that you all tried to deal with yesterday though you didn’t have the context, is not new. It is just now very visible because of the current Israel-Hamas war. It is, simply, the result of intergenerational changes among Jewish Americans. Changes that have been underway for several decades, but are now very visible.
One final point: some of the “not in my name” protests are enlightened self interest. They are attempts by some Jewish Americans to make it clear to everyone that Jewish does not equal Israel and that Judaism does not equal Israel. Because the fear, and it is a real one, is that this truth is going to continue to be erased. And as it is erased antisemitism and attacks on Jews in the US will increase even more than they have over the past eight years. We are already seeing neo-NAZIs and white supremacists infiltrating the pro-Palestinian activities that have developed over the past three weeks with the intent to turn them fully into antisemitic activities. Not because the neo-NAZIs like Arabs or Muslims, they don’t, but because they think they can use them to get at their preferred target: Jews. We’ve also seen what we so often deride here as the dirtbag left demonstrate that it is not so much pro-Palestinian as it is antisemitic. Jewish Americans were already far more scared than they’d previously been before Hamas attacked Israel on 7 OCT. Now that they’ve seen how non-Jewish Americans have responded, they’re even more scared. And unlike our parents and grandparents, we know that Israel is not a safe place to seek refuge should the worst come to pass here. Scared and feeling trapped is not a good combination. It is not conducive to rational thought or sound decision making.
In my case, regardless of my views regarding Israel, I raised my hand and swore the oath. And while I no longer have any role or serve any purpose in American national security, I have not been released from that oath. Regardless of what happens I will remain what I’ve always been: an American, whose religion is Judaism. I cannot go to Israel because I will not break my oath. Even if it would be the only way to save my life.
Hamas’s attack has been far, far, far more successful than it ever expected. Unfortunately, when it is all said and done, no one is going to win this war. The only question is how far does the collateral damage actually spread.
Next time just ask for the context. It will save us all a lot of discomfort.
Thus endeth the lesson.
I’m going to watch rugby.
Open thread.
ETA at 10:45 PM: I made a slight adjustment in the paragraph that starts with “That’s obviously unrealistic” in order to make the post more coherent.
Nukular Biskits
Excellent essay, Adam.
Thanks for taking the time.
Eunicecycle
Thanks, Adam.
lollipopguild
Yes, Adam thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom with us.
Almost Retired
It is hard for me not to interpret the unnecessary “simple child” analogy coupled with the dismissive reference to postcard writing as anything other than an unseemly attack on another front pager. But since you decreed that we can’t argue with you in the comments, I won’t.
prostratedragon
Thanks for the context, Adam. Your unfortunate conclusion describes what I thought I was seeing, which has me taking in only small aliqouts of news lately.
Peke Daddy
Will the collateral damage include the US becoming significantly more involved? Does more chaos and more US involvement here work to Hamas’s advantage?
Ruckus
@Nukular Biskits:
I agree, Adam is, as always, excellent. And especially today.
Adam, I’ve studied religion extensively because I wanted to understand the concepts and reasoning. And after years and extensive effort and thought, I came to the conclusion a while ago that I have zero opinion on religion, other than if you feel, need, enjoy the concepts, more power to you. And one of the reasons was your posts and concepts that I’ve seen here. You relate all of this pretty much better than anyone I’ve read or spoken to. Including one (and only ONE) Catholic priest I knew a lot of decades ago, who is #2.
Haroldo
Thank you, Adam.
Alison Rose
Thank you, Adam.
As the saying goes, two Jews, three opinions. Although on this particular topic, more like two Jews, 17 opinions.
I will say that throughout the last few weeks, one thing that has frustrated me is seeing non-Jews finding Jewish groups or individuals saying the things they want to say and boosting them, as if to say “Look, see, even JEWS agree with this so it’s okay for me to say it!” But those people don’t speak for all of us, and some of those people have suspect motives, which goyim will never bother to research. (It also reminds me of the argument over the Washington football team’s name. You’d get white folks finding a few Native Americans who said “we don’t care about the name” and they’d be like “Checkmate, libs” even though a whole lot of Native folks DID care about it.)
As you say, this topic is massively complicated for many Jews, intergenerationally and otherwise. It’s more than a little annoying when people who aren’t Jewish, have no connection to Judaism, and know fuck all about the history want to loudly opine about what they think is wrong and what ought to be done, usually in rather simplistic terms. The urge to apply a US-centric racial lens to this conflict is common, even though it’s absurd. Tell me you know nothing about Israel without telling me you know nothing about Israel. Or Jews, for that matter. For most non-Jewish people in the US, their image and understanding of Jews basically equals…me. White Ashkenazi Jews. Those are not the majority in Israel. All Jews are not Ashkenazim. (Also, as a Black Jewish friend of mine noted, white Ashkenazi Jews only have *conditional* access to whiteness and white privilege, so long as certain people don’t find out we’re Jewish.) They often know nothing about the history of the land itself, too, but seem to think it’s not necessary in order to declare what they think its future should be.
I’m 43, and while I’ve never been targeted by something like an antisemitism-driven mass shooting, I have been on the receiving end of antisemitism my whole life, sometimes small things (people assuming my family is wealthy) to larger (a guy on a gaming message board getting mad at me for being a girl with an opinion and, seeing the Hebrew lettering in my avatar, sending me an old newspaper image of an oven from a concentration camp). It is — and I will say this a thousand times — true that it is not automatically antisemitic to criticize Israel. I do it a lot. But it is also not NEVER antisemitic, and seeing groups and people in this country essentially take the side of Hamas by cheering on brown folks rising up against white colonizers (again, INACCURATE) is chilling as fuck to me. Hamas doesn’t just want Israel as a state gone. It doesn’t just want Israeli Jews gone. It wants all Jews gone. Every one of us. If you thought the assholes in the US wearing 6MWE shirts were terrible, well, guess who else shares their sentiment.
Anyway. This is all shit I’ve said before. But thank you for this eloquent and important post, Adam.
Ruckus
@Peke Daddy:
Does more chaos and more US involvement here work to Hamas’s advantage?
I think that is difficult to say, I think it depends on what and how that involvement is handled/done. My concept is that it often isn’t better for really anyone or it’s better for both. And no one knows which way the cookie crumbles ahead of time, ever.
japa21
Wow…wow…wow.
Thank you so much for this. If I may, I would like to focus on a couple of your statements, then summarize to the best of my ability, my overall reactio to this post.
I can fully understand that viewpoint. In some ways, it is similar to how I feel when I hear “Chrstians” talking about how the U.S. is a Christian nation (no it isn’t and never was conceived to be) and yet advocate national policies that go totally against what I was raised to understand about Christian theology and doctrine.
I am not sure there are any “internal to whatever” issues anymore. Internal issues, be they Judaism related, the GOP related, Russia-Ukraine related, have a tendency to spread far beyond the initial boundaries. It may not be appropriate to always interfere, but awareness of both the issue and its potential impact on us does matter.
I am not sure how much this fact is recognized and appreciated. I have z belief most people would have said the Muslim community had more reason to be scared, but in reality, hatred is always looking for a rationale to strike out. And if someone or some group already has a festering hatred of Jews, they will finagle anything to justify acting on it.
As someone who grew up in a mainline Protestant faith and became a member of the Roman Catholic Church in my mid 30’s, I have been insulated from a lot of the feelings you describe. And when I hear complaints by some RW (they are always RW) Christians that they are being persecuted for their faith, I can’t figure out what the Hell they are talking about, because they sure don’t have anything to complain about compared to Jews, Muslims of even Hindus in this country. They certainly aren’t going to be persecuted just because of their name, like someone named Silverman might.
So, I am very thankful to you for putting this in front of us. Also, somewhat disheartened because you also are probably correct that there is no solution unless there are major changes in the leadership on both sides of the conflict.
Adam L Silverman
@Peke Daddy: I’m referring to Hamas’s actions making Jews, Arabs, and Muslims targets for those already predisposed to going after them just for being Jewish, Arab, and/or Muslim.
japa21
@Almost Retired: I think you missed the whole pint of what he was saying.
Alison Rose
@Almost Retired: Adam didn’t mention postcards? I didn’t read anything dismissive in his reference to the other FPer. Rather, he was noting that he, Adam, is the one with the direct professional expertise related to this topic.
Cathie from Canada
I would also recommend yesterday’s substack from Montreal journalist Justin Ling: You can’t bomb your way to safety https://www.bugeyedandshameless.com/p/israel-ground-war-gaza-hamas
It is a lengthy article where Ling covers the history of America’s Forever Wars since 2001 and how they relate to the Middle East now – very useful background.
Captain C
@Alison Rose:
Especially when they use the Neturei Karta.
Especially when they themselves are white colonizers, by their own definition.
HumboldtBlue
This is why we read this blog.
Jay
As always, thank you Adam.
Dan B
Hamas does want the Jews gone, likely even exterminated. At the same time Bibi and his coalition want the same for the Palestinians. It seems to me that driving them out of the north of Gaza was a ploy, however misguided, to create a pressure cooker that would force the Egyptians to allow the Palestinians into Egypt. Egypt doesn’t want Hamas. Hamas would cause trouble with Egypt’s leaders and military.
Geminid
I aporeciate this post Dr. Silverman, and intend to reread it closely in order to better understand it. But I’m wondering: have you had a chance to read Ben Birnbaum’s interview of former IDF intelligence chief Amos Yadlin? It was published by Politico 4 days ago. I thought Yadlin’s analysis of how Israel got to where it is now was informative. Mr. Yadlin also described what he believes are the military and political leaderships’ war aims, which I found sobering.
Cameron
Thanks, Dr. Silverman. It’s nice to have a chance to listen and learn without succumbing to the urge to open my mouth and flaunt my ignorance.
Dangerman
Thanks as always, Adam. Of late, for a variety of reasons, I tend to check out on complex topics (ok, I don’t mind sharing; I was just in the Hospital for a minor heart procedure; as these things approach, I go into an information lockdown of sorts to keep whatever sanity is left intact). I appreciate this illuminating post as I come back into the light of the living again.
Zzyzx
That’s what’s so horrific. The only even sane approach is a 2 state solution and it’s dead.
Israel needs to stop what it’s doing. It’s both a human rights violation and counterproductive to anything good happening. However I can’t even go to the rally today in Seattle because it’s a DSA bullshit thing which is going to have “from the river to the sea” chants and cheer on Hamas as anti-colonialism liberators.
There are days where I’m glad I’m in the tail end of my life…
zhena gogolia
@Almost Retired: Ugh, yes. Really not good. And it keeps happening.
Tee
Delurking to say thank you to Adam for this and all his other posts. I have found through the years that his commentary has been through as well as thoughtful. I appreciate the skill and expertise he brings to both his posts and comments. I am better informed and able to discuss these issues with my kids because of the information he shares with the Balloon Juice community. Dealing with kids who are already anxious because of their life situations adding in world events makes for tricky navigation. Being able to have a resource such as this has made it somewhat easier.
Zzyzx
I do also wonder if the generational difference is that I’m old enough to be influenced by the Yom Kippur war whereas younger Jews have just seen an Israel that has won and just keeps getting worse.
zhena gogolia
@Alison Rose:
From the OP:
Not cool.
zhena gogolia
@zhena gogolia: I’m just the granddaughter of someone killed in a pogrom in 1914, so I’ll stay out of it permanently.
FelonyGovt
You correctly summarize the generational divide among Jews concerning support for Israel and the terror, disappointment and in some cases disillusionment we Jews are feeling. But it’s wrong to belittle non-Jews who want to learn more about all facets of this war, or to imply that they should stay out of these discussions.
lowtechcyclist
@japa21:
And even if there still were “internal to whatever” issues, the fact remains that America is inherently involved: we provide aid to Israel to the tune of three or four billion dollars each year, and it seems to come with absolutely no strings attached with respect to Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians in the areas under its direct (West Bank) or indirect (Gaza) control. That makes a big difference in terms of what a leader like Bibi thinks he can get away with in his treatment of the Palestinians.
So America’s hands are already dirty here. We can’t just say this is Somebody Else’s Problem; it’s ours too. We too have to thread our way through this moral maze, to try to determine what’s the least wrong way to use our influence here.
Peke Daddy
@Adam L Silverman: Thank you, Adam. I understand your focus here.”The Guns of August” comes to mind, though.
Almost Retired
@Alison Rose:
Yesterday, the (non-Jewish) front pager posted about the Zirin column, and expressed an interest in making BJ a place where we can think through the issue and learn in a safe space. The comments were informative and I (a Christian) learned from them – yours included, Alison, in that post and others as always.
Today’s post starts by referencing the “simple son” parable – a child described as:
“not developmentally disabled”…but “does not have enough context to formulate his question in the most basic manner.”
Then the front pager’s “safe place” language was excerpted immediately thereafter – with the intended analogy being apparent.
Later, after stating that BJ may or may not be a “safe space,” the post continues:
“[W]e’d appreciate it if those of you outside looking in leave us be because our own history tells us you’ll just make things worse. Thanks for the best wishes, go find a thread about underwater macrame post card music writing in popular culture while watching the ball game or something and leave us out of it.” Emphasis added.
So we’ve got references to the post card and music posts and the recurring Medium Cool post, all facilitated by the same front pager.
The targeted insult is crystal clear to me, and pointlessly detracts from the substance of this post. It disturbs me immensely to see an invaluable front pager so egregiously maltreated.
japa21
@zhena gogolia: Again, you are missing the point of everything he wrote up to that point. If he was really being dismissive and meant that sentence to be taken literally, he wouldn’t even have written the post.
And if comes back and says, yes, he was being dismissive of all those things, then I will apologize.
Tom Levenson
As the roast chicken/Dutch painting/excessively wordy Jewish FPer, I may have a follow up post to this—not to disagree with Adam, but to provide a bit of background (in part, from the point of view of being the Jewish father of a Jewish son whose views are emblematic of why the right-wing (inadequate term) gov’t has for decades misread what’s happening beyond Israel’s borders.)
And then again, I may not, as my life is exceptionally crowded these days.
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: Okay, people can have their interpretations, but you have to read it in context of the lines before it:
There are a lot of people who want to insert themselves into a conversation that isn’t about them or their history, and about which they are largely ignorant, and one which those of us whom it is about haven’t ever been able to come to anything approaching a consensus — not within the wider global Jewish community, not within the US Jewish community, not within our own friend circles or families, not even within our own damn minds. We’ve been wrestling with this issue for a long time, and people who have not been will often want to take part even though it’s not always from an informed position.
I took the line you quoted to mean more like, please go discuss other, lighter, less harrowing topics which you’re more suited to than this one which has not been part of your life story and your family’s history.
ETA: Not to say non-Jews can’t talk about it. But there are ways to do that which are appropriate, and ways that aren’t.
Alison Rose
@Almost Retired: I’ve already offered my thoughts, but I am not Adam, so I’ll leave it at that and let him respond if he wishes.
Yutsano
@FelonyGovt: I see it from the point where Jews will have to solve these discussions internally. But that doesn’t absolve us of the obligation to teach others as to why this is an internal struggle. And that ultimately it’s the plurality of us that need to find our answers. But outside input that comes from a place of love and respect should at least be considered. If it doesn’t meet up to that criteria it’s garbage and we know what to do with that.
dc
@Alison Rose:
People who are writing postcards are fighting the ever growing fascism in this country, something pretty harrowing that affects us all, live in this country or not.
Hungry Joe
Enlightening, as always. Thanks, Adam. I read all your Ukraine/Russia posts but never comment because I have nothing to add.
Which is pretty much true this time, too. But I lived in Israel, on a kibbutz, for about a year and a half, and I was there during the Yom Kippur War. The kibbutz is in the northeast, near the Jordanian border, so we weren’t near any action. (Jordan sat this one out.) Aside from occasional jets — F-4 Phantoms, mostly — streaking overhead at what seemed like 50 feet (probably more like 250 feet), presumably on their way to Syria/the Golan Heights, there was little sign of war. Almost all the men were suddenly gone, of course, called up into the Reserves, so my contribution to the war effort was working extra-long hours to help pick up the slack. We did have one scare, when we were sent to the bomb shelters for a few hours. In my shelter they hung a bedsheet on the wall and screened a bad Lee Van Cleef movie.
But the feeling I remember most is vulnerability: Israel is a VERY small country. I said that there was little sign of war, but we we’re intensely aware that there was heavy fighting going on just 75 miles away. Occasionally we thought we heard the faint rumble of distant explosions, but it was hard for us non-military types to distinguish those sounds from the rumble of tanks on the road a mile or so away — like the fighter jets, making their way north.
But that feeling: vulnerability. Never felt anything like it, before or, luckily, since.
Alison Rose
@dc: I’m well-aware, and I am personally not dismissing that work. I didn’t read this as saying “what you’re doing means nothing compared to this discussion”. Two things can be important and complex at the same time. It doesn’t mean that being well-informed about one makes you well-informed about the other.
zhena gogolia
@Alison Rose:
As I said above,
The lines you are drawing are not so clear-cut.
But the original objection was to the sniping against another FP-er, which has happened repeatedly, so is not inadvertent or isolated.
Alison Rose
@zhena gogolia: I was not intending to draw clear-cut lines. I was speaking from my own personal perspective about my own experiences over the last few weeks, the last few years, and my whole life. I’m allowed to do so, as are you, as is Adam, as is everyone here.
Again, regarding a perceived slight, I’ll let him speak to that if he wishes.
wjca
That is also my recollection of the oath I swore on joining the military: nothing resembling a termination or release clause. It’s amazing, also sad, how many ex-military types we see who apparently assume that the obligation somehow ceased when they left the military. And not just on this topic.
Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)
Nevermind
oldgold
@Almost Retired:
I read everything Adam Silverman posts here. They are informative, interesting and persuasive. Generally, but not always (particularly on matters focused on law), I agree with him. That said, in my opinion, his style is mildly off-putting.
Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride
Some people concluded the two-state solution was dead long ago. The great historian Tony Judt, who was militantly Zionist enough in his youth to spend two summers on kibbutzes before the state of Israel came into being, wrote a controversial article in the New York Review sometime in the 1970s arguing that the “facts on the ground,” plus the attitudes underlying them, had already killed the two-state solution. He also argued that a single state encompassing the whole of Palestine could not remain both Jewish and democratic, since its Jewish population would inevitably become a minority. Thus, the least bad option to him was a single democratic state encompassing the whole of Palestine which would almost certainly cease to be Jewish. I don’t remember whether he discussed what would happen if the Jews of Israel rejected this scheme (as the majority almost certainly would). Nevertheless, I haven’t seen any convincing argument, from the viewpoint of someone who shares his left-wing democratic values, that he was wrong.
Geminid
@Alison Rose: That’s basically how I read this passage.
Josie
@Hungry Joe: This is something that occurred to me when I was studying a map with my granddaughter. It’s so obvious that Israel is a very small country, surrounded by many other countries that would prefer it not exist. The constant feeling of vulnerability would be exhausting, I would imagine.
A Good Woman
I have struggled through this month to carefully calibrate what I feel and want to say. Zirin’s column helped tremendously. This is definitely a situation where I expect to hear “stay in your lane”, “racist”, “colonizer” and anti-semitic” in response to anything I might offer. I suppose I am that simple child.
I am furious with ALL of the main players. I will leave it at that.
Princess
Thanks, Adam. All of this. So much of the discussion around this topic has been so…facile. I really appreciate how you make it neither simpler nor more complex than it is.
Nukular Biskits
I admit to being at a loss to comprehend the sheer hatred that leads to such violence.
Having said that, however, being born in the mid-60s and growing up here in the Deep South, I’ve seen plenty here, most of it coming from folks who professed to hold “sincerely-held religious convictions”.
The only real antidote to ignorance is education … but you can’t educate someone who refuses to learn.
Tehanu
Thanks, Adam. I’m old enough to remember the “reflexive” support of Israel — indeed, to have felt it myself — and I appreciate your explanation of how that has changed and why.
Another Scott
IANAL, but it looks like there are ways to get approval to do things outside of your oath after you leave federal service. OSD.mil
Cheers,
Scott.
Timill
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride: Um. Tony was born on 2 Jan 48, and was thus some 5 months old when the state of Israel was founded…
Geminid
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride: I do not believe that the possibility of a two state solution is over, and I do not care how many people say it is.
For one thing, the Arab nations that recently normalized relations with Israel- Bahrain, Morocco and the UAE seem to be operating on the assumption that there will eventually be a Palestinean state alongside Israel, and I think tbose people know this problem better than me or you.
And I think these Arab nations sent an implicit message to the Palestinians that was a neccesary one, to the effect of: we will no longer support your maximalist, irredentist goals, and you will have to take what you can get. We will help you, but you must first give up the dream, “Palestine will be Free, From the River to the Sea.”
Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride
@Timill: Whoops. It actually happened in the early 1960s. Care to respond to anything else in my comment?
Odie Hugh Manatee
Talk about a full service blog. Thank you very much, Adam. A few words of mine in appreciation of your many informative words.
I can’t help but think that Bibi is fighting a monster that he built and everyone else is paying for it. I have seen the back and forth over there over the decades and I don’t think it is going to ever end. Hatred is fuel and there’s a lot of fuel over there.
Van Buren
@Peke Daddy: More of “The March of Folly” for me.
BruceFromOhio
This simple son is extremely grateful for this essay. Thank you, Adam, for taking the time and effort to post this and all of your writings.
And thank you, @Alison Rose.
No One of Consequence
Haven’t even read the whole post, just wanted to chime in to say thank you for it. I was hoping for something like this.
Peace,
-NOoC
Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride
@Geminid: I hope you’re right, although there seems to be a lot of mind-reading going on in your comment. But even if you’re right, what would that second state look like, and how could it be viable? To start, wouldn’t Israel have to dismantle all the barriers to a workable West Bank state it has set up, including the settlements?
karensky
Adam, much respect for your careful and thoughtful post. When I heard of Rabin’s death I knew that the 2 state possible was lost and I cried. I am going to watch soccer. Enjoy your rugby game.
bjacques
@Van Buren: Or The Proud Tower. What struck me about that was how many rehearsals there were for World War One, what with Greece, Ottoman Turkey, and Bulgaria already going at it by 1908 or 1909.
Thanks to Adam and others, even the hot arguments are of better quality than just about anywhere else. By the time I think I can form an opinion, new information comes in, so I hold off, but at least I’ve learned enough to hammer away at bad arguments elsewhere.
jackmac
First off, thank you Adam for offering your thoughts and expertise.
My own perspective starts as a South Side of Chicago-born, child of immigrants and as a (now-lapsed) Catholic who attended 12 years of parochial schools. But I’m also Jewish-adjacent through my in-laws and a decade living in a heavily Jewish neighborhood. I’ve been to my in-laws’ temple several times for services, bat and bar mitzvahs and even interviewed their rabbi for an article (as part of my previous life as a journalist).
Through these exposures my default position is to be supportive of Israel. But the persecution of my ancient and distant relatives before they escaped from Ireland and upheavals in Poland also makes me sympathetic to the ordeal of Palestinians.
There’s no easy or quick answer here. A two-state solution once seemed to be the best approach, but that will not happen in this environment.
In the longer term, perhaps some lessons from Ireland may be instructive.
The decades-long and bloody “Troubles” in Northern Ireland seemed intractable and unending until they weren’t. Years of patient negotiations, false starts and incremental progress between Catholics and Protestants — and probably the weariness over continued conflicts — resulted in a cessation of hostilities between hated enemies and the start of a cold peace.
Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland may never be best of buddies, but they’re also not killing each other. And that is important progress.
Dan B
Adam; Thanks for the clarity on why the demonstrations by Anerican Jews have been so forceful – fear of a massive increase in anti-semitism if Bibi commits genocide.
I wonder if Blinkin is talking to some Arab countries about reining in Hamas.
Soprano2
I’m not sure how to feel about this post. OTOH, there’s something to be said about the fact that people who are directly affected by this situation have an understanding the rest of us will never have. OTOH, it also has the feel of those who say you can’t talk about the job police do unless you’ve been a police officer, so go over there and quit talking about it, you’re not qualified to say anything. I did learn stuff, thanks for that.
VeniceRiley
I turned the rugby off immediately after the red card.
Don
@Tom Levenson: I look forward to such a post. A discourse around these topics would be welcomed by many of us practicing Presbyterians, who attempt to add understanding to our faith journeys.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Tom Levenson:
If you can squeeze the time for it, please do. I enjoy your writing and I’m sure it would be worth reading.
Anne Laurie
This is an amazing essay, Adam, and I’m glad you wrote it to share with us.
As a front-pager, I’ve tried to keep in mind that I am, and always will be, an outsider on this (not all goyim!… ). Since I know I can’t be objective, I’ll do my best not to add to the noise of battle.
(And if I fail at that, I’d appreciate y’all letting me know.)
John Cole
@Almost Retired:
Maybe I missed this decree, but there is no post on this website in which you are not allowed to argue. We have a commenting policy that is pretty clearly laid out, and nowhere does it say you can not argue.
Yutsano
Slightly OT: Alexandra Petri remains a national treasure.
(Should be gift link)
brantl
I think a majority of the populace in both Israel and Palestine want a two state solution. I think the Israeli government has never voiced their base assumption: we won the area in war, we get to keep it, and manage it as we see fit.
Geminid
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride: Yes, I think Israel will have to dismantle many of the settlements in the West Bank. But the Oslo accords do not require Israel to evacuate all settlements in the West Bank, at least not those in “Area A” which at the time included a small city. I believe the Oslo Accords said their would be an undefined land swap, possibly of an area adjacent to the northern West Bank with a concentration of Arab villages and towns. Ive seen it referred to as “the Triangle.”
That may be problematic now because the residents might rather remain parrt of Israel. Around 2019, rumours led residents to protest this prospective transfer.
And I do not believe Israel will ever give up military control of the Jordan River line, at least not for decades.
I also think that a Palestinian state will be effectively demilitarized. It would not have complete control of its own borders.
Sovereignity is often seen as unitary, but it is actually a bundle of rights. The Palestinian state would have some of them but not others. This might seem unfair to many people. I would point out that a lot of peoples were dispossessed in the last century, and few of them have gotten as much as I’ve described.
Palestinians would not get what they want and what their Western “allies”* want for them, but they would get what they need. I think they’d get a lot more economic support from neighboring countries, the EU, and the US as well, but not political support for irredentist goals.
* I put allies in quotation marks advisedly. Earlier this afternoon, I saw a video of a rally on a US college campus. When a speaker said,”If Hamas is worse than ISIS, then Israel is worse than Nazi Germany!”
There was cheering, and later a large column of people marched off chanting, “Palestine will be Free, from the River to the Sea.” With friends like this, who needs enemies?.
Princess
@Geminid: re 2 states: I tell myself there was a time not so long ago when we could never have imagined that France and Germany could live side by side in peace with fixed agreed-on borders.
RedDirtGirl
@John Cole: Adam asks that we specifically not argue with him about the death of the 2 state solution, if I understand correctly.
Traveller
@Geminid:
Thank you so much for the refer
@Geminid:
Thank you so much for the reference to Amos Yadlin and the POLITICO conversation with him.
He seems much more belligerent than Adam is, though still Yadlin is less belligerent than myself even as a non-Jew, (though with some very minor time in Israel and the West Bank), and as an often critic of the Settlement position of various previous Israeli Governments.
Be that as it may, as an admitted outsider, I will disagree with Adam…there will be a winner…the Arab nations and the Arab street with the dismantlement & destruction of Hamas.
I lastly will note as I have elsewhere, Gaza is physically larger than many successful states, Malta, Monaco, either side of Cypress, Liechtenstein, and many of the Pacific Island states….there is no reason that Gaza cannot flourish if it chooses to…to spend its assets on things other than war preparation and war making, (and, parenthetically, I might add & I would insist that Lebanon has better things to spend its meager assets on than 10,000 rockets! There are dividends to peace). Best Wishes, Traveller
brantl
@Alison Rose: People are being killed by the thousands, and you feel that you can say this is some kind of issue that should only be spoken about by people who have either a religious, cultural, or past historical involvement that closely identifies them with the situation, on one side or the other? I’m sorry, but killing innocents VOLUNTARILY is always wrong, I don’t give a shit what group you belong to, or when.
sab
@brantl: I don’t even know if that is true anymore. Once Bibi helped get Hamas established, I think that seemed like a dangerous fantasy to most Israelis. And Palestinians in Gaza have no options except to hope for survival. Israelis at least live in a democracy, not a theocratic terrorist outpost.
Bombings and terrorist attacks attract attention, but they don’t encourage anyone to want to negotiate with your side.
Hamas and Bibi’s crew have convinced the majority of people on either side that the other side cannot be sucessfully negotiated with. Didn’t Adam say a couple of weeks ago that 90% on both sides want a solution but that 10% on either side are running things.
Northern Flicker
I’m not sure what exactly the “this” that us outsiders should not be discussing is. Does it include what is happening in Gaza? That isn’t internal to Judaism.
Alison Rose
@brantl: You have greatly misread things. People of whatever background can have and express their thoughts about what is happening. But people who are not Jewish either 1) wanting Jews to have a unified and clear public stance about the state of Israel when, as Adam and myself and others have noted, there are a thousand reasons why that is not possible; or 2) talking over us to explain why the way THEY see it is right even if they clearly do not have a full understanding of the history of the land and the conflicts, and not wanting to listen to more informed viewpoints that contradict what they want to believe — those things are unhelpful.
We all have areas where we know a lot, where we know a little, and where we know nothing. It’s important to recognize where you fall on any given topic and not pretend to be in another lane when you aren’t. As one small example, as I noted above, there have been a lot of people (not necessarily here on BJ) who seem to view the conflict between Israel and Hamas or Israel and Gaza as a racial conflict between white oppressors and brown victims. This is a false and bad way to look at it. It is something you can only believe if you haven’t bothered to educate yourself even a tiny bit. Inserting simplistic US-centric takes on a subject that is far more complex than that doesn’t do any good. (Note, I am using the general “you” here, not speaking to you specifically.)
No one is saying non-Jews can’t have opinions about the war and about Israel’s politics and about Hamas’ acts. But non-Jews do not have a role in the conversation amongst Jews about our complicated pseudo-relationship with Israel, with Israeli Jews, with Zionism and anti-Zionism, with antisemitism both from the left and the right. As Adam says, we as a people have been wrestling with this a long time. We have not arrived at the One Perfect Answer because it doesn’t exist. Some of us think they have, but it is folly to believe so.
Old Man Shadow
Innocent people are dying.
I wish the people driving this stupid war would give a fuck about that. I wish they would put aside their hate and see themselves in the other person.
And there is little anyone can do about it. Donate to relief funds. Call representatives. In the meantime, people keep dying. People who want the same fucking things: peace, security, and a plot of land to raise their family on.
I reck9n a lot of stupid on this toxic is steeped in frustration at that helplessness.
Geminid
@Traveller: I have encouraged people to read the Yadlin interview (on other threads, not this one) not because I think he’s “right,” but because it is the Amos Yadlins who will affect the course of this war, and not the David Shirins.
Margaret
Adam, thank you yet again for another thoughtful, informative post. It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion about this topic without acknowledging the history and complexity of the issues involved. Thank you for providing nuance and context – exactly what is missing from some of the simplistic “hot takes” being amplified by certain voices in the media.
MagdaInBlack
Thank you, Adam.
For what it’s worth, I have no issue with the idea that sometimes its better to just sit back and listen. That’s how I learn. I apply that to a lot of things.
ginkgo
Thank you, Adam. This is another post that has expanded my view on a situation that I knew just enough to think I had some grasp on it. Obviously, I have a much more limited knowledge than I realized.
It is amazing how much a few sentences from you can help shape my views on various matters (example – that we have been at war for the past few years).
My brain is rather simple in how it works, so understanding the basic concepts are critical for me. I can then build my ideas onto a sturdy base. Intuitive I am not. I think that is the main reason basic science is one of my passions.
Another Scott
I think there’s a lot of talking past each other in these 2 threads. Maybe I’ll add to that, but I hope not.
My $0.02.
Have a good evening, everyone.
Cheers,
Scott.
sab
I don’t think that Adam was taking potshots at other front pagers. He has said repeatedly that he doesn’t have time to read other posts and threads.
Beth H
I’m so proud of the author, proud to call myself a fellow American, lucky to belong to this country,his home. So grateful for his work, history, perspective, and wisdom. Thanks Adam, and Balloon Juice for this.
Geminid
@Dr. Jakyll and Miss Deride: I guess it’s not too unfair to say I was doing some mind reading at comment #55. But I followed the normalization of relations between Israel and and Bahrain, Morocco and the UAE as closely as I could, including the reaction of Palestinian leaders and the response to them from Arab leaders (plus subsequent developments including the posture of Saudi Arabia). And what I said at #55 is what I took from those exchanges.
ginkgo
I see someone else has again been able to express my feelings/thinking far more eloquently than I can.
@Margaret:
Brachiator
I wish that this were true.
I think that Rabin was a wise man. He had seen enough of war and conflict to risk much for the chance of peace.
Totally understand this sentiment. My gut reaction is to say that if this is the case, don’t ask for US assistance, including military assistance.
The two state solution was, and may still be, the least worst option. But ultimately I agree that it is up to the Israelis, their neighbors and others with a stake in the issue to resolve things.
I noted in a previous thread that I grew up with the background of a number of intractable international problems. Kashmir, South Africa, Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Sri Lanka, Gibraltar, Hong Kong. Some of these problems continue, some have been resolved.
I also see that sometimes people and nations refuse to be honest about the conflicts, or dance around some key issues.
The Tory government lied that BREXIT would have no impact on Northern Ireland. They also paid one of the main unionist parties, the DUP, a sweet billion to help grease their support.
Currently, the DUP currently refuse to participate in a power sharing agreement with Sinn Fein, who did very well in past elections. The DUP claims that they cannot take their seats until defective BREXIT customs arrangements are re-negociated between the UK and the EU. This is not only nonsense, but the BREXIT framework agreed to between the EU and the UK doesn’t permit scrapping the agreement.
Meanwhile, essential laws and policies cannot be voted in or implemented, and the civil service has its hands tied. Some citizens demand that the British government gets more directly involved, even though everyone knows that this is impossible because it would violate agreements that led to a rough peace in Northern Ireland.
But everyone dances around a key part of the problem. The DUP and the people the party represent are desperate to maintain strong political ties between Northern Ireland and the UK. They want a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. They want the political entity that is Northern Ireland to be distinct and part of the UK forever. They would even prefer direct rule from Westminster than governing their own country alongside Catholics.
But this is impossible, and what peace there is now in Northern Ireland is based in part in letting the Protestants believe in their fantasies as long as they did not upset reality.
The previous UK government headed by Boris Johnson made noises that they would scrap parts of the BREXIT agreements related to Northern Ireland. They also made noises during the 2020 election that Joe Biden couldn’t be trusted because he was Irish, and just to be saucy, that Kamala Harris was trash because she was Indian.
Joe let it slide, but quietly noted that the British government would not be allowed to do anything that undid the Good Friday agreement that had brought peace to Northern Ireland. He did not say, but let hang in the room the fact that the UK is worn out and toothless, and no longer America’s best friend.
It is probable that Northern Ireland may be moving towards reunification with the Republic of Ireland. There may be other options. But none of them will likely please the DUP, but it really doesn’t matter. Their opposition is pointless.
I have no idea what might happen between Israel and the Palestinians. But I get the sense that some, like the DUP, are playing a game that no one cares about and is irrelevant to what may happen in the future.
Michael Bersin
@Alison Rose:
And, it’s deeply offensive for non-Jews in American politics to trumpet their performative support for Israel only because it’s an essential part of their personal end-of-times religious dogma. We’re a convenient cog in their system, to be eventually discarded when our “mission” is accomplished.
We’re not a prop for your apocalyptic right wingnut fever dream
The antisemitism is always there. This is made even worse by, “Oh, you don’t look [unspoken: ‘act;] Jewish” or the pat on the back and, “It can’t happen here.”
YY_Sima Qian
Thank you Adam for the very informative essay! Unfortunately, the nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, its origins from the Arab-Israeli conflicts, its ongoing impact on the dynamics of the MENA region, its salience across the Global North & Global South, & the U.S.’ & the UK’s complicity since the very beginning, means conflicting views on it w/in the Jewish community can never be compartmentalized as an intra-Jewish affair. Nor should it be. The positions & policies advocated in this intergenerational intra-Jewish fight have direct bearing on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict & its wider effect.
Then again, the voices advocating for peace & constraint tend to be decisively disadvantaged in policy making circles against the likes of primacists/aggressive realists/militarists, everywhere.
Equating Biden to Bibi is inaccurate/unhelpful/unproductive, and then Biden team should get more credit than they have received for “hugging Israel tight” to at least temporarily constraint it from its worst impulses. However, the blinding hypocrisy (not unique to any particular U.S. administration or Western government) is that such sensitivity is almost never offered to countries that are not U.S. allies/partners/clients. In the latter circumstances, the impulse to seek geopolitical advantage overwhelms any impulse to minimize harm. (Again, not at all unique to the U.S. or the West, but the U.S. & the West have dominated the global power hierarchies, international system & global discourse for centuries, & continue to try to sustain this dominance). That is why Western diplomats (as in anonymous European diplomats being quoted in European papers) are right to fear that the Israeli-Hamas War (& the Israeli war crimes that is occurring & more that everyone seem to anticipate) will negate any advances the West has managed to make in the Global South since the start of the renewed Russian invasion of Ukraine, possibly poisoning the well for years, if not decades, to come.
What’s even more galling is that treating Israel w/ kid gloves is actually a relatively recent phenomenon. U.S. administrations from Eisenhower to Reagan had not hesitated to twist Israel’s arms if the latter was deemed to undermine U.S. geopolitical interests. It seems the U.S. & the West made a conscious decision post-Oslo Accords to give Israel carte blanche, so as to relieve Israeli security anxieties concerning establishing a Palestinian state next door. That strategy was defensible when Israel was committed to the Two State Solution. It is not defensible or sustainable when Israeli policy is to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and to permanently destroy the conditions for the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Needless to say, Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Palestinians in general, the Sunni Arab states, Iran & its proxies, non-Western powers, all have varying levels of agency & few have been helpful now or in the past. Nonetheless, it is Israel & its Western supporters (as in governments) that hold most of the cards on how things shake out going forward in Gaza & the WB (where settler violence against Palestinian civilians are escalating by the day), Iran & its proxies being a distant second IMHO.
Alison Rose
@Michael Bersin: Yeah, I have always loathed how Republicans in this country insist Jews should support them more because they care about Israel. I’m not from there, I don’t have relatives there, I have a massively complicated set of emotions about the place. I care more about the GOP’s domestic policies and those are all garbage. And as you say, they don’t care about Israel or Jews beyond the role we’re meant to play for them. Mendacious little putzes.
FelonyGovt
Exactly.
YY_Sima Qian
@Geminid: My much more cynical read, though I am sure I have not followed the issue nearly as closely as you, is that the Sunni Arab states, like Israel, the U.S. & the EU, thought they could contain, compartmentalize & largely ignore the brewing Palestinian discontent in their normalization w/ Israel. That was an elite sentiment not necessarily shared by their general populations.
Jake Sullivan was touting how well the Biden Administration has managed the Middle East shortly before Hamas’ barbarous surprise assault. He even wrote a piece for Foreign Affair that had a self-congratulatory section on the ME, specifically stating how dormant the Palestinian issue has become. The FA issue went to print before 10/7, but the CFR let him excise the entire embarrassing section from the online version, which is actually a worse look. Goes to show that the delusion has not been restricted to Jerusalem.
Albatrossity
@Another Scott: Perfectly summarized, IMHO. Thanks for putting into words what I wanted to say.
Geminid
@YY_Sima Qian: I think that the various state actors decided that this problem could be managed, and not solved. And as you say, it was subordinated to considerations of geopolitical competition.
An unrelated observation: I saw a Times of Israel article about the press conference PM Netanyahu held this evening. There was a picture him, and my very subjective take was that he looked ten years older than he did a month ago.
Adam L Silverman
@Another Scott: The simple child, as I explained in describing its role in the ritual, is actually a complement. In the recounting of the four sons it is the simple child – the one that knows they need to learn – that begins the actual process of learning, of becoming enlightened on the topic. The wise son (thinks he) already has all the answers. The wicked son is contrary for the sake of contrarianism. The son who is to young to even formulate a question is just that. It is the simple son that allows for the tale of the Exodus and the Passover to properly be recounted and for its true meaning to be learned.
If someone chooses to be offended by that, that is on them.
Alison Rose
@Geminid: Cool, maybe he’ll die soon. Not that whomever follows would necessarily be better, but you know…
Adam L Silverman
@oldgold: Then I have failed. Because I’m usually going for majorly off-putting.
schrodingers_cat
Thanks for your perspective Adam.
I spit out my coffee after reading this. I have railed against those culture threads before. I have given up and even tried to participate in them and even those post card writing ones. But I often feel like I am talking to myself. I guess because my culture and background is differs from the norm on BJ.
schrodingers_cat
@Adam L Silverman: Do you have any thoughts about BJP cozying up to Netanyahu, while trafficking anti-semitic tropes like framing Soros as the big bad.
It so off-putting to see RW Indian politicians take their cues from the very worst of the Republican party.
Geminid
@Alison Rose: I think Netanyahu will survive his time as Prime Minister. But I was reminded of stories that Likud founder Menachim Begin died a broken man a couple years after he resigned the premiership. It was said his responsibility for the Israel’s costly and failed invasion of Lebanon weighed heavily on him.
Michael Bersin
Allison Rose:
Have cousins there. Visited once in 1964.
My mother’s ancestors were expelled from Spain at the end of the 15th century. The family lived in North Africa for approximately 450 years. My grandparents only spoke Arabic and Ladino. My mother and her siblings spoke Arabic at home and French in school.
At one point during WW II the Vichy government and Nazis wanted to appropriate the property of and deport 250,000 Moroccan Jews. Sidi Mohammed Bin Youssef, the Sultan, reportedly said, “There are no Jews, there are only Moroccans”.
My mother was 13 years old in 1942 when the Allies invaded North Africa in Operation Torch. They lived near the port in Casablanca. They spent three days in their cellar during the Allied shelling (including the 16 inch 2000 pound shells from the U.S.S. Massachusetts – one that skipped off the dock and landed next to a synagogue, unexploded).
I am acutely aware that I only exist because a Muslim Sultan intervened to save the life of my mother and 250,000 others.
After 1954 my aunts, uncles, and cousins dispersed across the world.
Yeah, it’s really, really complicated.
Ohio Mom
@Tom Levenson: Oh, please find the time, I would be very interested in this.
I sometimes joke that my feelings about Israel are the youngest thing about me. I wish them and their neighbors peace and prosperity just like I wish for everyone. But I feel no attachment to Israel.
terraformer
Thanks very much for this, and just know that as a fellow American I support you.
laura
Words fail. I’m heart broken for the Israelis and Palestinians who each have a right to exist and who have no say in who lives and who dies. If that makes me an enemy of somebody, I guess that’s a burden worth bearing.
YY_Sima Qian
@Michael Bersin: Fascinating history!
coin operated
Just wanted to pop in and say thank you Adam. There is some serious inside baseball going on here that nobody had laid out as succinctly as you just have. Thank you.
Ohio Mom
@Michael Bersin: Wow, thank you for sharing your family’s story.
I am reminded of all the times I heard about the King of Demark saving his country’s Jews. Somehow though I was never taught about the Sultan of Morroco. Hmmm….
Michael Bersin
@YY_Sima Qian:
It’s taken a long time to piece that much together. I only found out about my mother’s experience in 1942 about twenty years ago when we were watching a documentary on the North Africa campaign on one of those cable history channels. My mother turned from the screen and, matter of fact, said, “I was thirteen years old. We spent three days in the cellar. One of my brothers went out to get food.” That was it. I asked, “Why am just I learning about this now?” No response. That conversation was over.
I did finally understand why she wouldn’t allow guns in the house when we were growing up.
Quiltingfool
Thank you, Adam. I agree that I, raised as a Christian, do not have the knowledge or background to offer any sort of advice to Jews. Therefore, I think it best that I listen to Jewish folk and learn. I have learned so much from you, and I appreciate it.
I had never met any Jewish person until I started working as a secretary in Kansas City – first job was as a personal secretary to a real estate developer and my second job as a secretary to an attorney. I got a bit of insight into Judaism from the attorney. He was a brilliant attorney, a good family man and a devout Jew. He was one of the finest people I have known.
Even though I grew up not being acquainted with anyone Jewish, I could never, even as a child, understand why Jewish people were hated. It made no sense to me. It still doesn’t.
Now, if you want to know anything about Baptists, I’m your gal! For example, why are there so many different Baptist churches (southern, northern, bible, primitive and so on)? Simple answer is there would be a fight in the congregation, one faction would split off and form a “new” Baptist church. But I suppose that happens in just about any religious group, lol!
wjca
It can be startling to realize that, in a number of cases, the right thing happened in places where there was a monarch (in the 20th century!) who said “No!” to the Nazis. And made it stick. As opposed to various nominally democratic countries which just rolled over (collectively, not all the individuals there) and let a chunk of their citizens be destroyed.
Dmbeaster
This essay reminds me of a somewhat obscure historical fact, and that is the debate in the late 19th century amongst Jews as to whether or not Zionism should become a pillar of the Jewish faith. There was a lot of opposition to Zionism which took many different forms. But one line of opposition was that it would corrode the Jewish faith by infusing it with a nationalism as if Jews and Judaism would become something akin to Buddhist warrior monks (my expression – not what they literally said).
I would say that there ended up being a lot of truth in that, and is part of the problem with Israel. A growing awareness of this seems to be underlying the generational shift in attitudes about Israel.
Israel also has a founding myth concerning itself which is horribly false regarding rather important events, and also makes it difficult to solve problems. Even an ardent Zionist like Benny Morris has uncovered this fact, even though he seems reconciled to it (i.e., the ethnic cleansing of 1948 was necessary for the founding of Israel).
It is worth noting that a rather large plurality of Israelis (40% or so according to polling) favor further ethnic cleansing – a second Nakba – as a solution for the West Bank and Gaza. The two state solution has been killed by the Israeli politicians elected by these people, and its not just Netanyahu. Hamas is the same spirit on the Arab side that has existed since 1948. An awful lot of Palestinians share their beliefs.
This war has been ongoing for 100 years now, and dominated by these two factions.
Neal
@japa21: @zhena gogolia: @YY_Sima Qian:
I am very serious when I say that I wish that even a quarter of our population would be able to express thoughts and ideas as well as you do. I find your tone respectful and your arguments challenging. It is truly a lost art these days.
In discussions such as this accuracy of language and rigor of thought becomes all the note important. I look forward to more of your comments and again, I am serious.
Adam L Silverman
@schrodingers_cat: Honestly, that was meant as tongue in cheek smartassedness, which is why I started with underwater macrame. I figured no one would take it seriously if I did. I figured wrong.
Sally
@Adam L Silverman: I took it that way (snark) and kept rereading it as people piled on. I’m glad I didn’t misunderstand. Thank you for this, and all your posts.
sab
@Adam L Silverman: Sorry, but we always take you seriously.
sab
@Geminid: Glad to hear that.
Netanyahu cannot be broken. He has no soul.
Feathers
@jackmac: One thing about the peace in Northern Ireland that people forget is that it came after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of Soviet funding and training of Marxist terrorist organizations, including the IRA. Also, as the peace talks began, Irish-American politicians, including Ted Kennedy, met privately with Irish-American “patriotic” organizations, letting them know that funding and gun running for the IRA was not going to be tolerated. That collapse of outside funding is a large part of what brought the IRA. I don’t think we’re going to see that on either side when it comes to Israel and the Palestinians.
One thing from growing up Irish in America I’ve learned is that living through trauma (or be raised by people affected by it) is that it can either help you to see injustice more clearly when it harms others or curdle you into a hateful resentment.
Sally
@Sally: I have mis-stated – not snark, “smartalec”. Sorry, I’m making a real hash of this fairly worthless comment!
Adam L Silverman
@sab: It is my curse.//
Adam L Silverman
@wjca: Democracies are not very good at stopping fascism. The only thing that has ever stopped fascism is the application of force. Bullets, bombs, blood, bodies.
Adam L Silverman
@Dmbeaster: It is not obscure at all. And what you’ve described is all too true and unfortunately so.
sab
I am reading this as a shiksa who has always gone to school with Jews, lived with Jews, liked Jews, admired Jews, married for ten years to a Jew and never felt I had any chance of being one of you. And that is not a complaint or a criticism. Just history. And my family has its own painful history elsewhere in the world.
Read Adams post and thought that pretty much said it all. Showed it to my husband the Irish lapsed Catholic and he got all indignant. How dare Adam!
At this point I don’t know what to think. I wish Israel well ( good luck with that) and Palestinians well ( better luck with that) and I desperately wish my country hadn’t hooked its prestige to a tiny country we admired and hoped would behave better than it possibly could.
Thank God my ancestors were Swiss and Irish in their north, and came to America ( and Canada.)
Adam L Silverman
@sab: Please tell your husband I’ve dated more Irish Catholic women than I have Jewish women, including my high school sweetheart. So he’s good!
Ohio Mom
@Dmbeaster: Oh yes, Israel *has* become a pillar of the Jewish faith, those are the words I’ve long been searching for.
I sometimes say that long after I am dead, scholars will determine that what led to the demise of American liberal Judaism was the centering of Israel instead of putting effort into developing liturgy and new customs that spoke to the people in the pews.
That is certainly true of me, I don’t like going to synagogue and seeing an American flag and an Israeli flag on opposite sides of the bimah. I am looking for an experience that speaks to unanswerable questions and eternal truths that transcend the modern nation state.
I am tickled to learn that this was predicted long ago and not just some quirk of mine.
sab
@Adam L Silverman: That will piss him off royally. No issue with you Jewish. Why are you dating Catholic girls. They ate unmanageable. What were you thinking?
His sisters are Catholic girls and a handful.
sab
@Ohio Mom: You maybe posted my e-mail. I hadn’t checked. Too late to respond?
Ohio Mom
@sab: I have a vague memory of asking WaterGirl to forward an email to you about setting up a meetup, months and months ago. Is that what you’re referring to?
I don’t think it’s ever too late for anything.
WaterGirl
@sab: @Ohio Mom: I just wrote to both of you again.
DanOnTheEarth
I’m long-time reader of BJ and I want to say I really have appreciated Adam’s very deliberate and nuanced words about This.
I’m a (youngish) Brooklyn-born Jew, non-secular due to fallout of these exact specific cultural walls. Lower-case “o” & “c” orthodoxy and conservative attitudes to these cross-cultural points have long put a bad taste in my mouth. Not only with P-I issues, but how the community handles tangible & real life ones like adoption and what/who is truly Jewish.
In the last 3 weeks, the outward (and proudly so) racism coming from pro-Israel individuals and groups against the Palestinian people have disturbed me in a way I wasn’t expecting. I expected the regular dingdongs on the far right to be dingdongs against everyone; that’s an unfortunate given.
To have family & friends excuse and then celebrate actions that cause the obliteration of life is so deeply unsettling. Victim blaming children & families and cheering on war crimes as morally right was not what I thought was “ a shared value”.
At the most basic, this has one Jewish person’s experience with This Terribleness and how what the heck it’s been for younger generations, seeing the Never Again message being shrugged to a Maybe.
Adam L Silverman
@DanOnTheEarth: You’re most welcome.
ChrisSherbak
I add my thanks – a lapsed Catholic with a firmly established Jesuitical bent (yes, they had me for 4 years) with passing familiarity with Jewish culture and religion and (sadly) little history. The nuance and challenges of that history are only now becoming present to me as the dialog that comes with war and protest and resurfacing of hatreds and wounds provides education I should have received many years ago. I yearn for peace but know it is not in my hands to form or even formulate it. I look forward to thoughtful insights like yours to help me gain deeper understanding, esp. if and when I need to make choices about support and protest. I know I will try to be sympathetic to those closer to the issues than I can ever be.
way2blue
@Josie:
Years ago, I came across a series of maps showing how the boundaries of Israel had changed over time. To make sense of it—I superimposed the current map of Israel over the State of California. And was astonished to see that it wasn’t much bigger the the SF Bay Area. I kept checking the map scales & projections to make sure I hadn’t messed up somewhere. Tiny indeed.
way2blue
@wjca:
If I remember correctly—the King of Denmark wore a Jewish Star of David.
sab
@way2blue: Israel is tiny by American standards. A smallish state.
Geminid
@sab: Israel is small, with a population of around 9.5 million. It is still larger by population than Austria and Switzerland. Hungary has a few more people, and Sweden about a million more.
Ella in New Mexico
@Adam L Silverman: I got it 100%. When you know your shit and it’s just the frigging truth, it gets old arguing with people who don’t.
I’m one of those walk and chew gum people–actually I can do both of those and about 6 other things–who believes you can support Israel’s right to exist peacefully, Palestinian civilians right to a decent life, hold Israel’s government accountable for it’s terrible choices and rid the world of terrorists who would shoot babies point blank in the head to further their cause. It’s complicated, so fucking complicated but at least we good humans have to try to do the right things.
That being said, I just wish there was a way to protect innocent people on both sides of the border from mass destruction. To find a way to separate them as much as possible from a war they don’t want to fight. Children don’t choose where they live or what religion their parents follow, and they certainly don’t choose to die for a cause they don’t even know exists. I just want to hear what the options for that are.
So in a wierd way, being the “simple child” might actually be the most rational position to be in.
Thank you, as always, Adam for your knowledge and insight on so many complex and heartbreaking issues.