Anything but talk of Biden stepping down.
What do you want to talk about that isn’t that?

This post is in: Open Threads
Anything but talk of Biden stepping down.
What do you want to talk about that isn’t that?
This post is in: Elections 2024, Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat
.@speakerpelosi: "I'm not abandoning Joe Biden right now for any speculation… So while the intelligentsia may have some analysis of what people are thinking, what we're hearing that people are thinking is they support the ticket and I support the ticket." pic.twitter.com/lsByx3blex
— Inside with Jen Psaki (@InsideWithPsaki) June 30, 2024
1/It’s possible the best option is Biden steps aside. But I think it’s more likely that would make things worse. I see lots of people saying Biden needs to step aside, I see almost nobody explaining what happens next & why that would be better
Bad vs not-bad doesn’t exist… https://t.co/aQVffEvfE3
— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) June 30, 2024
2/…in this situation. It’s about bad vs worse.
Not bad RE Biden’s performance; his performance has been stellar. Top ten President-caliber. And not certain that he’ll decline so badly he can’t effectively perform the duties of the office. Just bad that he’s 81. That’s old…
3/ Actuarial tables are real things. Few people stave off significant decline in their 80’s. Of course it’s no certainty that being younger guarantees good health; I can attest to how being in excellent shape & decades younger than Biden is no protection from life-threatening…
4/…illness & disease. 8 years ago I was in better physical condition than Joe Biden. Today he’s probably in better condition than me.
But this dilemma didn’t arise last Thursday. It was a risk the entire time. (Note that had she won in 2016 & again in 2020 Hillary Clinton…
5/…would be 77 at the end of her term; the same risk existed w her in 2016, & in 2020 Biden’s two closest competitors [Sanders & Bloomberg] were both _older_ [and Warren is only 6 years younger].)
Age & incapacity aren’t directly linked; JFK was young, & was horribly ill.
6/And w Trump, who knows? We’ve never seen trustworthy medical reports. (In fact, his former doctor’s office was raided by unknown men who grabbed all of Trump’s records, which were probably destroyed.) Cognitively Trump was never smart; now he’s energetically incoherent.
7/But this is the situation we’re in. Wishing it were different doesn’t make it so. @JamesFallows
—who’s been in the White House, looking at choice & trying to figure out which & bad & which are worse—has the right take. We can’t know w great confidence that it would be…8/…better if Biden stepped down (he almost certainly can’t be removed against his will).
Like almost everything in our politics, ultimately this is probably Trump’s fault. Biden’s story—which I believe is largely true—is Charlottesville compelled him to run. He believed he…
9/…could beat Trump. He not only beat Trump, he became only the third Democrat since FDR (along w LBJ & Obama) to get over 50% of the vote. He won by over 7m votes.
Biden also believed he could be a great president. He was right, beyond just about anyone’s imagination…
10/Our problem was Biden won the 2020 election, but he still hasn’t defeated Trump. Too many Americans support a guy who tried to keep power through violence, & our system & institutions aren’t strong enough to block his return to power
So it depends on a Dem nominee…
11/And only one Democrat has beaten Trump: Joe Biden. Do we assume it would be easy for someone else to replicate Biden’s result? That not an easy question to answer, but I have yet to see anyone offer a strong argument that it’s more risk for Biden to remain the nominee…
12/…than for him to be replaced. And I don’t think it could be anyone except Kama Harris; it won’t be Perfect Unnamed Democrat
This isn’t easy. Among the many great disservices of the press is discussing a replacement for Biden as if there are clear procedures for that switch…
13/…or that it’s obvious that replacing Biden increases Dems’ odds of winning
Ultimately, I think @joshtpm is right, this will be decided by Joe & Jill Biden, Barack Obama, Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, & Nancy Pelosi. Not the press, not you or me.
But we’re not helpless…
14/We can & should continue to volunteer, donate, persuade family & friends to vote Dem & against Trump/Trumpers/Trumpism. And we can challenge The Great Simplifiers, the pundits through to the Twitter randos who talk about our situation—that we’ve been in since 2020–as if…
15/…it’s easy. It’s not. And it’s politically irresponsible or worse to talk as if there’s an easy way to get through the Trump crisis of American democracy.
Actual reporting on the mechanics of dumping our nominee, at this stage. Sharing is caring!
There is no evidence Biden is willing to end his campaign. And it would be nearly impossible for Democrats to replace him unless he chooses to step aside. Here’s why:https://t.co/ang0DbQNnn
— Steve Peoples (@sppeoples) June 28, 2024
My take on where the Biden campaign goes from here: https://t.co/ZxiCYMRudn
— Inside with Jen Psaki (@InsideWithPsaki) June 29, 2024
… [T]here is no question the next few weeks are going to be rocky for the Biden campaign. There will be ongoing discussions about the possibility of an open convention, and about replacing Biden on the ticket. While that may sound like a good idea on editorial pages, it would be quite challenging to pull off. The public has already chosen Biden, and a brokered convention means party delegates — and not the public — pick the nominee (from a large field of ambitious and talented people) in what would also be a messy and divisive process. This is not a “West Wing” episode.
The next few weeks are critical. The campaign needs to mobilize its surrogates, in particular the vice president and the group of promising Democratic governors like Gavin Newsom, Josh Shapiro, Wes Moore, J.B. Pritzker and others. It needs to keep raising money and highlighting that continued support.
And if Chris Christie is waiting in the wings to announce his endorsement, by all means they should roll out something big to change the subject.
But more than anything, the buck stops with the president. As Biden himself said on Friday, he is older, he is slower and he is not as strong of a debater. But he is still a deeply empathetic leader who has spent his adult life fighting for the little guy. And he has a hell of a record to prove it. Trump is still a man convicted of 34 felony counts who believes that women shouldn’t make choices about their own bodies and insurrectionists should be free. So Biden should watch the debate, rip up the notecards with numbers and data, speak from his heart and use this lousy performance as his motivation to once again prove people wrong. It’s far from over. Scranton Joe is far more appealing than creepy convict Don. But after Thursday, at least among the chattering class, Biden is the underdog.
Sunday Night Open Thread: We’re Ridin’ with Biden & HarrisPost + Comments (182)
by Adam L Silverman| 16 Comments
This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Military, Open Threads, Russia, Silverman on Security, War, War in Ukraine

(Image by NEIVANMADE)
A couple of quick housekeeping notes. First, Rosie is doing fine. She’s got another week off before she starts round three. Thank you all for the good thoughts, well wishes, prayers, and donations.
Second, if you are, might be, could be in the path of Hurricane Beryl start making your preparations now. This includes where you’re going to go if you have to evacuate. Better the be ready and not need to do anything than not be ready and it becomes too late.
The Russians opened up again on Kharkiv today.
About half an hour ago, russian troops struck a residential neighborhood in Kharkiv with a glide bomb. A fire engulfed a post office and seven vehicles. One person is reported dead, and at least seven civilians were injured, including an 8-month-old baby, Governor Syniehubov said
— Iryna Voichuk (@IrynaVoichuk) June 30, 2024
And once again they targeted a Nova Poshta facility:
The aftermath of the Russian strike on a Nova Post terminal in Kharkiv. A FAB-500 bomb attacked it.
A civilian object, hit on a Sunday afternoon to increase the number of possible victims. That’s Russia.
📹: Radio Svoboda https://t.co/bbCSGLgWQv pic.twitter.com/zUv7ekOD43
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) June 30, 2024
Russia hit Nova Poshta terminal in Kharkiv with a guided bomb. Truck driver was killed, another 10 people wounded. Some inside are still missing. One by one, Russia is trying to take out industrial capacities in Kharkiv. pic.twitter.com/EROYPN9SJu
— Maria Avdeeva (@maria_avdv) June 30, 2024
Russian attacks on Nova Poshta facilities began right after Nova Poshta began opening more offices throughout the EU back in the late winter/early spring. Screwing up the mail is one way to terrorize Ukrainians, but apparently opening these stores in EU cities and expanding services to Ukrainians in exile from the war, as well as those wishing to support Ukraine by using Nova Poshta services, seems to have really pissed off someone in Moscow.
Kharkiv and the Nova Poshta facility was not the only civilian target that the Russians hit today.
Vilniansk, Zaporzhzhia Oblast:
російські військові вдарили по центру міста Вільнянськ Запорізької області.
Станом на 20:15 загинуло 7 людей, з них 2 дітей. Ще 18 осіб, серед яких 4 дітей – травмовано.
Внаслідок влучань сталося загоряння торгових приміщень, домоволодінь та транспортних засобів. pic.twitter.com/2ezqA7EpgE
— DSNS.GOV.UA (@SESU_UA) June 29, 2024
Here’s the machine translation:
the Russian military hit the center of the city of Vilniansk, Zaporizhzhia region.
As of 20:15, 7 people died, including 2 children. Another 18 people, including 4 children, were injured.
As a result of the hits, commercial premises, houses and vehicles caught fire.
this is Vilniansk in the suburbs of my homecity Zaporizhzhia. burning kids alive while they were trying to have a normal school graduation ball. name more evil culture than russian 😩@SESU_UA pic.twitter.com/EOKBCbG4uu
— вареничок.eristavi 🇺🇦🏳️🌈 (@maksymeristavi) June 29, 2024
More after the jump.
Last night in comments BSChief asked:
A regular reader of your posts, this is my first time in comments, so apologies if this has been hashed through previously, but do you think there is any chance of North Korean troops fighting with the Russians in Ukraine?
First, thank you for reading. To answer your question, the reporting from earlier in the week is that the DPRK is sending a combat engineering unit to join with the Russians against Ukraine. What we don’t know is what size the unit will be – brigade, battalion, company, platoon, squad to use our nomenclature – and whether they will actually fight or just build something in the rear.
Here is President Zelenskyy’s address from earlier today. Video below, English transcript after the jump.
Strikes on the Russian Border Areas Helped Protect Lives; So Will Further Decisions – Address by the President
30 June 2024 – 19:52
Dear Ukrainians!
Today in Kharkiv, another strike by a Russian guided bomb hit a postal terminal, an ordinary civilian facility. As of now, there are reports of ten injured. All are being provided with the necessary assistance. Unfortunately, one person died. My condolences to all their loved ones. These bombs are one of the key elements of Putin’s ability to wage war. The sooner the world helps us deal with the Russian combat aircraft launching these bombs, the sooner we can strike – justifiably strike – at Russian military infrastructure, military airfields, the closer we will be to peace. Real peace. The world has enough power to force Russia into peace. And in particular, defending the Kharkiv region from the Russian offensive, we have proven that the determination of our partners truly helps. Strikes on the Russian border areas helped protect lives. So will further decisions – the bold decisions that must be made, that we need and that we are discussing with our partners. In the coming weeks, we will continue our communication to achieve the necessary decisions.
Today, at the end of this day and these weeks, I want to thank all our people who invariably arrive at the scene after any Russian strike, conduct rescue operations, clear the rubble, and help the wounded. I am grateful to the entire staff of the State Emergency Service of Ukraine and all the employees of public utilities who are helping. I thank the police and medical workers – those who are always on the scene and always with people. Thank you to everyone involved in rescue efforts.I would especially like to mention the guys from the Dnipropetrovsk region: Ihor Sorokin, Andriy Koriaka, Ivan Podoliak from the paramilitary mine rescue squad. Also, rescuers Roman Kurmaiev, Mykhailo Ishychkin, Ihor Hetalo, Vitaliy Tymofeyev, Ivan Svynoboy, Oleh Tokariev, Yevheniy Shapoval. Thank you and all your colleagues in the region! Also, the Donetsk region, which Russia wants to turn into ruins entirely. Today, I would like to commend the rescuers working there who literally save lives every day: Ihor Korzhov, Andriy Lenfira, Oleksandr Kachan, Anton Pavliuchenko, Dmytro Rudenko, Andriy Dolzhenko, Pavlo Zakharov. Thank you, guys, and everyone working with you and helping you!
And one more very important thing. In the weeks following the first Peace Summit, we have not stopped communication with our partners for a single day to secure support for our Summit communiqué. We now have ten more signatures after the Summit from various entities around the world. The world must be represented in the work for peace as broadly as possible, and I thank our team for their active efforts. We also have more details about working in groups on specific security issues, according to the Formula points. Peace has no alternative, and no matter how much Russia tries to expand the war, we will do everything to bring peace back to Ukraine – a just peace.
Thank you to everyone who helps! Thank you to everyone who defends our country and people! Glory to all who fight for Ukraine!
Glory to Ukraine!
This week alone, Russia has used more than 800 guided aerial bombs against Ukraine. Against our cities and communities, against our people, against everything that makes life normal.
Ukraine needs the necessary means to destroy the carriers of these bombs, including Russian… pic.twitter.com/c4pYjSUJZ7
— Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський (@ZelenskyyUa) June 30, 2024
This week alone, Russia has used more than 800 guided aerial bombs against Ukraine. Against our cities and communities, against our people, against everything that makes life normal.
Ukraine needs the necessary means to destroy the carriers of these bombs, including Russian combat aircraft, wherever they are. This step is essential.
Clear decisions are needed to help protect our people. Long-range strikes and modern air defense are the foundation for stopping the daily Russian terror. I thank all our partners who understand this
President Zelenskyy sat for an interview with Trudy Rubin of The Philadelphia Inquirer:
Negotiations with Russia can start only after the world works out a settlement plan and agrees it with Ukraine.
This is how Volodymyr Zelenskyy @ZelenskyyUa responded to Trudy Rubin’s @trudyrubin question, a journalist of the Philadelphia Inquirer, on whether direct… pic.twitter.com/HBnm6HUwn6
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) June 30, 2024
Negotiations with Russia can start only after the world works out a settlement plan and agrees it with Ukraine.
This is how Volodymyr Zelenskyy @ZelenskyyUa
responded to Trudy Rubin’s @trudyrubin
question, a journalist of the Philadelphia Inquirer, on whether direct negotiations between Kyiv and Moscow are possible.According to Zelenskyy, “countries from different continents”, from Europe and America to Asia and Africa, should take part in the development of the plan.
Here’s more from the interview: (emphasis mine)
KYIV, Ukraine — When President Volodymyr Zelensky walked into the high-ceilinged, ornate conference room in the presidential office building, the exhaustion on his face was so stark I almost felt guilty about taking his time.
Wearing his trademark black T-shirt and olive drab pants, and arriving after a morning of security meetings, he appeared to be carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. That may literally be the truth: The future of Western democracies rests heavily on what happens to Ukraine.
In a wide-ranging interview last week, Zelensky laid out how Ukraine could still win if the West can lose its fear of Vladimir Putin and recognize the Russian leader’s weakness.
Zelensky defined what victory would mean. And he insisted that direct peace talks with Moscow wouldn’t end the war but would encourage further Russian aggression against Ukraine, Europe — and America.
“It is impossible to help Ukraine with one hand and shake Putin’s hand with the other,” Zelensky insisted. “It will not work.” It is not just a question of the West protecting Ukraine, he stressed. “It is Ukraine which protects all of the democratic countries that Putin will attack further on.”
“The biggest [current] issue is with glide bombs,” Zelensky told me, referring to Moscow’s recent use of thousands of bombs each month that can be released at a great distance from their target, protecting the launching aircraft from antiaircraft defenses. “So you need to search for long-range solutions against their aerodromes where their military aircraft land, which Russia uses to launch glide bombs and missiles.”
If President Joe Biden would let Ukraine use long-range U.S. missiles such as the recently delivered ATACMS to hit those airports in Russia, then the attacks could be prevented, Zelensky said. But so far that permission has not been granted. Ukraine’s innovative, home-produced long-range drones are hitting those airports but don’t have the power of missiles.
Biden recently gave permission for shorter-range U.S. missiles to be used just across the Ukrainian border where Russian troops were massing, which halted the Russian offensive toward Kharkiv.
“But that doesn’t solve our issues,” Zelensky told me. “It is tactical, not strategic.”
I asked Zelensky whether he believed Biden wanted Ukraine to achieve victory.
“Yes,” he answered quickly. “I think that for the United States it is important and for Europe and for many countries. But we can have different ideas toward the word victory.”
“The West wanted to deny Putin the opportunity to fully occupy Ukraine and to put the aggressor in his place. I think for them it is the victory already,” Zelensky said.
“But for us,” he continued, growing emotional, “for the people at the front line who lost their brothers at arms, the civilians who lost their relatives, those who fled abroad but have husbands on the front line — for us, victory is a moment of satisfaction.
“We are grateful that the West did not let Russia occupy us [fully], but we need justice.”
In other words, Zelensky, who still maintains a 60% popularity rating among Ukrainians, must listen to the voices of his people and his soldiers, who won’t accept surrendering one fifth of their land to Russia after all they have suffered. That burden is visible in the lines on his face.
There is much, much more at the link.
Right now, Russia has parked its strategic aviation assets just beyond the range of where Ukraine is allowed to use US weapons. They have removed them from near the border with Kharkiv and Sumy oblasts and placed them outside of the permission distance that the Biden administration has given Ukraine. As I’ve repeatedly written, the Biden administration’s senior nat-sec team’s inability to clearly articulate what it means by victory for the Ukrainians combined with extreme risk aversion has created a situation where Ukraine may not be able to achieve it’s strategic objectives. The current geographic range problem is a prime example. The only weapons that can effectively hit these Russian weapons systems and thereby effectively deter Russia from using them are American. The Russians know what geographic limitations the Biden administration has placed on the Ukrainians in regard to using these weapons and, as a result, have positioned their own weapons systems just out range. Even if enough of these US munitions get to Ukraine it won’t make a difference because the Ukrainians cannot use them effectively.
This is even worse than for want of a nail. The Ukrainians have the nail, they are just not allowed to use it.
The cost:
Iryna can’t eat, thinking about how her sons, marines, are starving in captivity. And 10 people from Olena’s family are fighting in the war. Her brother was killed, her son-in-law was sentenced to life imprisonment in Russia, and her daughter has been in captivity for three… https://t.co/ZWJ9flbT2s pic.twitter.com/WTCJzRY7xB
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) June 30, 2024
Iryna can’t eat, thinking about how her sons, marines, are starving in captivity. And 10 people from Olena’s family are fighting in the war. Her brother was killed, her son-in-law was sentenced to life imprisonment in Russia, and her daughter has been in captivity for three years. Six-year-old Nastia, the daughter of a missing soldier, is waiting for her father to take her and her mother home.
All of them came to the Red Cross
headquarters in Geneva to find out at least something about their relatives. For eight hours, the Ukrainian women asked the organization’s representatives questions. At this meeting, they stated bluntly: The Red Cross is inactive. The women also organized demonstrations calling for the release of the prisoners.📹: Ty Yak
On the shield: Peter “Hasta La Vista” Fouché
It is with the heaviest of hearts that we announce the passing of Pete, our beloved director and founder.
There are no words that can do Pete’s life justice. No words or phrases that could ever encapsulate how much he meant to all of… pic.twitter.com/acrtrtkcDV
— Project Konstantin (@KonstantinTeam) June 30, 2024
On the shield: Peter “Hasta La Vista” Fouché
It is with the heaviest of hearts that we announce the passing of Pete, our beloved director and founder.
There are no words that can do Pete’s life justice. No words or phrases that could ever encapsulate how much he meant to all of us.
Pete’s unwavering dedication, endless compassion, and relentless commitment to Ukraine and her people have left an everlasting impact on the countless lives he touched.
His heroism knew no bounds. He was actively involved in saving more than 200 wounded Ukrainian soldiers, evacuating civilians from the most dangerous frontline cities, as well as bringing humanitarian aid to people in those towns and cities.
Pete’s bravery and selflessness in the face of danger were nothing short of extraordinary, and his actions will forever be etched in our hearts.
Pete was more than a leader; he was a beacon of hope, a true hero, and a friend to all.
His wisdom, compassion, and faith in God inspired us every day.His death feels like the worst nightmare: the kind of nightmare where you wish you could wake up, but then we wake up and realise that it wasn’t just nightmare.
We will honour Pete’s memory by continuing the work he was so passionate about, carrying forward his legacy of courage and kindness, of fighting for what is right, and of speaking up in the face of injustice.
Rest in peace, Peter. We know that our Heavenly Father has welcomed you into His arms.
Your heroism and contributions will never be forgotten and we will make sure that it was not in vain.
The reason:
Glory to our Defenders! pic.twitter.com/kHi6lgeGDa
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) June 30, 2024
Want to help with the “wedding” drone? Donate here: https://t.co/xMu5b2lBze
You can also check out @dzygaspaw‘s demining efforts here: https://t.co/6m0Jv9D0e1 pic.twitter.com/DT1kIlTGFV
— Maria Avdeeva (@maria_avdv) June 30, 2024
Here’s an update on the search and rescue operations in Dnipro:
Дніпро: вже другу добу рятувальники продовжують шукати людей, які ймовірно перебувають під завалами
Наразі вважаються зниклими безвісті ще 2 людини.
За час робіт розібрано та вивезено 480 т будівельних конструкцій та сміття.
Психологи ДСНС надали необхідну допомогу 47 людям. pic.twitter.com/5UY4syjI4X
— DSNS.GOV.UA (@SESU_UA) June 30, 2024
Here’s the machine translation:
Dnipro: for the second day, rescuers continue to search for people who are probably under the rubble
Currently, 2 more people are considered missing.
During the works, 480 tons of construction structures and garbage were dismantled and removed.
Psychologists of the State Emergency Service provided the necessary assistance to 47 people.
Kyiv:
Сьогодні ввечері ворог здійснив чергову атаку на Київ. Попередньо, падіння уламків зафіксовано у Оболонському районі міста.
Сталася часткова руйнація балконів на 6 та 7 поверсі. Також існує загроза руйнації балкону на 8 поверсі багатоповерхівки.
Попередньо, без жертв. pic.twitter.com/Pj2hXI04xV
— DSNS.GOV.UA (@SESU_UA) June 30, 2024
Tonight, the enemy launched another attack on Kyiv. Previously, the fall of debris was recorded in the Obolon district of the city.
The balconies on the 6th and 7th floors were partially destroyed. There is also a threat of destruction of the balcony on the 8th floor of the high-rise building.
In advance, without victims.
10 residents were evacuated from a residential building in Kyiv that was hit by the remains of a shot down Russian missile – Kyiv mayor.
Five people needed medical help. One elderly lady was taken to the hospital.
Rescuers were able to take a cat out. He was terrified. https://t.co/9wAOt5xSBx pic.twitter.com/4BtMpSkxfZ
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) June 30, 2024
Residents of the damaged building were trying to put the fire out themselves, to help the fire fighters. https://t.co/9wAOt5xSBx pic.twitter.com/mpBEbsoNjN
— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) June 30, 2024
Novomykhailivka front:
79th Brigade repelling Russian attacks in the Novomykhailivka area. As said, 7 Russian IFVs were destroyed. https://t.co/kJD2QJTuAT pic.twitter.com/VSFoLyS5kQ
— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) June 30, 2024
Not quite sure where in Ukraine this is:
Mr. HIMARS destroyed a russian «Zala» and «Lancet» UAVs crew.
📹: 58th Mechanized Brigade pic.twitter.com/cr0iXjkVff
— Defense of Ukraine (@DefenceU) June 30, 2024
Obligatory!
Russia:
Russian media report about the alleged downing of 36 UAVs during the repulse of a Ukrainian drone attack across six regions. Specifically, 15 drones were downed in the Kursk region, 9 in the Lipetsk region, 4 in the Voronezh region, 4 in the Bryansk region, 2 in the Oryol region,… pic.twitter.com/9BgJeh8zDF
— NOELREPORTS 🇪🇺 🇺🇦 (@NOELreports) June 30, 2024
Russian media report about the alleged downing of 36 UAVs during the repulse of a Ukrainian drone attack across six regions. Specifically, 15 drones were downed in the Kursk region, 9 in the Lipetsk region, 4 in the Voronezh region, 4 in the Bryansk region, 2 in the Oryol region, and 2 in the Bilhorod region.
Additionally, a fire broke out in Nizhny Novgorod at a waste disposal production site, affecting an area of 500 square meters.
That’s enough for tonight.
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Open thread!
War for Ukraine Day 858: Russia’s War Against Nova Poshta ContinuesPost + Comments (16)
This post is in: Open Threads
Life goes on – one thing I’ll say for this summer, it certainly hasn’t been quiet!
Trump’s sentencing date is July 11, just over 10 days from now. I found the comment below, by lurker, really helpful, so I saved it for when we were a bit closer to sentencing time.
I looked for a good image to use for a Trump thread, and I decided on this one.
Partly this is collecting some of the sentencing/appeal comments into a thread … um … cuz?
There are a few points that seem to be coming up:
One, he may or may not go to prison immediately. Judges have some discretion to allow someone to get their affairs in order in a gentlemanly way – this tends to be granted in white collar crime cases and much less so for violent offenses or drug crimes. The court is mainly analyzing whether the convicted felon is a flight risk and a public safety risk. Sadly, money is typically considered an indication of not being a flight risk, even though it might enable flight that a poor person could not achieve (like using a private plane, e.g.)
Two, the order on when to report is often stayed pending appeal based on the same kind of analysis – flight and public safety risks, and that order can be handed down by the trial-level judge (Judge Merchan in this case) or by the appellate level court if an appeal is filed and a stay is requested.
Realistically, Trump will not go to jail right away in this case regardless.
Third point – whether he goes to jail for contempt – hard to say what to make of it in terms of the initial sentence, it can be considered as part of the sentence for the conviction or considered separately, subject to the controlling statutes which seem to be somewhat lenient in NYS. Any post-conviction contempt sentence could likely also be stayed and appealed. However, the gag order was already upheld during the case in an appeal which happened in parallel with proceedings at the trial court, so the best chance he would have if he is sentenced to jail for contempt is to get the appeals court to say the jail order was reversed. Contempt is supposed to alter future behavior as much as penalize past behavior, and here the future behavior is likely considered attenuated since the verdict has been reached. (Not saying that is correct, just where a court seems likely to go.)
Fourth point, probation can be very onerous or not very onerous – consider how many mob guys with organizational connections manage to deal with pretty light probation, versus onerous probation restrictions that seem to be designed to cause a probation violation and a sentence to jail/prison. Trump is not likely to have a very onerous or burdensome set of restrictions unless he starts violating more court orders and probation restrictions – leading to the judge revising and tightening the restrictions. This will not have an immediate effect in this case, but he seems to have the personality to get in trouble, combined with some fear of authority that kicks in to keep him safer from many more consequences. Consider that he is not a defendant who has had outbursts in court – the judge did not have to tell him to stop yelling during court sessions, only to stop with the out-of-court behavior. How that plays out on probation is hard to say and I am a little morbidly curious.
Fifth point (which is about six too many so far) is that he could get a suspended prison sentence with probation – this is commonly what someone gets in a situation like this – meaning that violations of probation (probably more than one) would lead to revocation of probation and immediate imposition of the otherwise suspended prison sentence. A guy in Trump’s socioeconomic status tends to get a lot of leeway on this.
Sixth, Trump could also get a prison sentence with an offer of a shorter stay and then parole. Parole is a post-incarceration option, and tends to mean a longer term of supervision in exchange for getting out early. He is not likely to even get into this type of situation, but parole can be an even bigger challenge than probation, as the length of time and restrictions tend to be tougher.
Seventh, (probably about ten points to many now), he could opt to spend the time in prison while he appeals. Notable examples of this were Martha Stewart and Barry Bonds, both of whom seemed to feel that taking the hit for serving their sentences (Stewart incarcerated briefly, Bonds on house arrest if I recall correctly) would be better than the public relations hit for staying out while on appeals at one level or another. Bonds announced he would begin serving his sentence, it is not entirely clear if he did, but the sentence was mainly 30 days of house arrest and then _two_ years probation plus community service. Bonds ultimately had his sentence overturned due to issues with whether he ever should have been prosecuted for perjury in the first place.
It is laughable that Trump would voluntarily serve his sentence before appealing to the US Supreme Court and what ever other court he could think of after that…
Ok, this was exhausting, hope it helps someone…
It helped me! Open thread.
Trump Sentencing Date Is About 10 Days From NowPost + Comments (307)
This post is in: Open Threads
What you see below is a post I started drafting 2 months ago on May 2. I offer this post – not to talk abut the specifics of Gaza or Israel – but because it’s the perfect example of the current rules of the game. The deck is stacked against us. By people who are influenced by disinformation, by people who lie whenever they open their mouths, by the media.
The deck is stacked against us, but I still think we will win. We do that, I think, by working hard and by tuning out all of the noise.
In 2007-08 when I was in Iowa volunteering for Obama, they wouldn’t let us do any sort of social media, and they worked us so hard morning and night that we didn’t have time to even hear the noise, let alone listen to it or be influenced by it. There’s a lot to be learned from that, I think.
I don’t accept that Democrats are the only ones with agency, but I sure as hell think we need to be using ours. We fight for Biden. We fight for the House. We fight for the Senate. We do our thing, clear-eyed and focused, and let the chips fall where they may.
If we’re smart, we’ll save our energy for the fight, and not spend it on infighting.
Anyway, here’s the post I started then, useful as evidence of the rules of the game.
I hate what’s happening to the people in Gaza.
I have trouble making sense of the decision not to vote for Biden because of it.
I see that I’m not the only one.
Gen Z: WE DEMAND A CEASEFIRE!
Biden: I want that too.
Blinken: I’m working on that right now.
Trump: Israel has to finish the problem. FINAL SOLUTION!!
Biden: no, that’s wrong. Civilians must be protected.
Hamas: we aren’t releasing the hostages
Israel: we aren’t going…
— Angry Staffer 🌻 (@Angry_Staffer) May 2, 2024
Full text of the tweet.
You’d think the fact Netanyahu wants Trump to win would be enough to convince them to vote for Biden.
— THEE Montana DemGirl 🐝 (@BeccaRocks7399) May 2, 2024
x
by WaterGirl| 52 Comments
This post is in: Open Threads, Political Fundraising, Targeted Political Fundraising 2023-24
If you’re not interested in the fundraising efforts, skip the updates and jump right to the comments.
We’re not matching in the usual way in the final push to fund a student at the Worker Power Leadership School, but we are matching!
At the end of the last Angel match, we needed $1,524 to get to $13,500 in the thermometer, And as soon as the thermometer hits $13,500, the “$500 bonus Angel” from last week will add the final $1,500 – taking us to the $15k goal.
So we are effectively matching the donations, and we’re matching any amount – until the thermometer shows $13,500 – but we’re not tracking individual donations so you don’t need to tell us about your donation in the comments unless you want to help inspire other folks to donate, too.
All matching stops the second the thermometer hits $13,500. (Then our “$1,500 bonus Angel” will add the final $1,500!
As I write this, $1,349 will get us to $13,500.
Had a great meeting with the NC folks on Friday! Truly kindred spirits.
We are focused on targeted and strategic fundraising; they are equally focused on strategy and data as they choose where to put their efforts with youth engagement in North Carolina. So excited to have found this group and to be able to support them.
I would venture a guess that they are equally excited about partnering with us, and are very happy that we knocked on their (virtual) door.
Open thread.
Getting Over The Finish Line Open ThreadPost + Comments (52)
This post is in: Elections 2024, Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat, Vice-President Harris
*READ*
"A closer look at Harris shows how effective she’s become."
"Her delivery is crisp and authoritative. She appears relaxed, confident and centered in formal and informal settings. And she appears to relish taking on bullies."
— Herbie Ziskend (@HerbieZiskend46) June 24, 2024
Jennifer Rubin, a week ago — “A closer look at Harris shows how effective she’s become”: [gift link]
On Friday [June 21], after the Supreme Court issued its latest batch of opinions, I spoke briefly on the phone with Vice President Harris. After several days spent attending her appearances, it had become obvious to me that far from being a liability, as her critics insist, she is an effective communicator and skilled advocate — especially on causes on which she has developed expertise over decades.
Given the recent court scandals, I asked her about ethics reform. Even when in the Senate, she recalled, she supported a code of ethics for the Supreme Court. “The reasons are more evident today, ” she said. She pointed to blindfolded Lady Justice. “This is how ingrained it is in our system of justice,” she added. “I’m concerned there has been loss of confidence” in the court, Harris said, highlighting not only ethics concerns but also the extreme ideology of a court that has shredded precedent.
From there she spoke passionately about her work since Dobbs to defend reproductive freedom. According to her office, since that decision, she has delivered scores of speeches and held more than 90 gatherings in 21 states (as well as convening groups at the White House) to discuss reproductive freedom with elected officials, health-care providers, faith leaders, students, and advocates. On her Fight for Our Freedoms College Tour, beginning in 2023, she raised the issue at college campuses.
Harris told me her campus visits have been standing room only, with overflow rooms. “Students stood in line for hours,” she said, “not for a rock concert, but to have a conversations with the vice president.” Contrary to the impression that Gen Z voters are disengaged, she came away “inspired” and more certain that they will mark a “sea change” in politics. Guns, abortion rights and climate are not academic issues to this generation. “It is a lived experience. In the height of their reproductive years, the Supreme Court took away the right to make decisions about their own body. . . . They understand we need practical solutions.”…
Political media largely underplays the vice president’s role in the campaign and specifically her task in reaching out to critical Democratic constituencies. But her political strength is not lost on the Biden team — as a senior aide exiting the gate on Monday acknowledged to me — which now deploys her during event-packed weeks. This past week alone, Harris’s schedule included a quick trip to Switzerland; her Monday event; a gun-safety appearance and Juneteenth celebration in Atlanta; abortion events back in D.C.; and finally, a New York speech to the largest hospitality union.
As is true with the entire campaign, the voters most enthusiastic about Harris are those who are most engaged. Now, the campaign must ensure the entire electorate gets to see what those watching her up close have observed: a formidable candidate.
vp as a pride flag is gay rights pic.twitter.com/I84V091iP8
— Florida Chris (@chrislongview) June 19, 2024
This interview was published ten days ago, and it demonstrates very well why attempting to pass over or replace VP Harris is a non-starter:
I sat down with @KamalaHarris this afternoon to talk about, among other things, the importance of this coming presidential election. “I think this is one of the most significant elections of our lifetime.” @theatlantavoice #gapol https://t.co/ws1C7TyRpZ pic.twitter.com/trA9a0zlSV
— Donnell Suggs (@suggswriter) June 18, 2024
In case you forgot, the thing that scares people most about Joe Biden's age is Kamala Harris's race and gender. pic.twitter.com/UjKCNyC82Z
— Victoria Brownworth (@VABVOX) June 30, 2024
I'll take calls for Biden to step aside seriously when they're proposing Harris (the only possible alternative) and not Johnny Electable, the hypothetical ideal candidate who is certain to win because he agrees with the pundit in question on every issue
— Houthi and the Blowfish (@canderaid) June 29, 2024
If it’s Harris or Biden (seems this is the case as a basic logistical question) and you don’t want it to be Biden you should start talking about how Kamala is actually pretty great and the mashups of her laughing a lot don’t really indicate she’s a bad politician
— the pier doesn’t need you (@CentristMadness) June 29, 2024
Because she’s a female politician we’ve all decided to make fun of her saying pretty boilerplate stuff, or pretending a metaphor about a coconut tree is somehow impossible to understand.
Kamala has been quite articulate and righteous about important issues for some time. You occasionally see clips of these speeches, usually from people trying to draw daylight between her and Biden to stir up controversy.
But what’s not going to work is to act like you can just drop a white guy from the Midwest in when the practical considerations make it impossible. And my understanding is that it basically is.
The subtext of ignoring all these practicalities to pass over Kamala is that we should just stick with the old white guy. Voters pick up on this subtext.
To say this is a complication is like saying Biden's debate performance didn't meet expectations. Yes, a pretty big one. The D party is defined by being the party of women & Blacks. I don't see how passing over the black woman veep isn't like setting off a bomb in the coalition.
— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) June 29, 2024
Sunday Morning Open Thread: Madam Vice-President Kamala HarrisPost + Comments (352)
