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Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

We do not need to pander to people who do not like what we stand for.

You know it’s bad when the Project 2025 people have to create training videos on “How To Be Normal”.

We can’t confuse what’s necessary to win elections with the policies that we want to implement when we do.

It is not hopeless, and we are not helpless.

Giving up is unforgivable.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

The line between political reporting and fan fiction continues to blur.

An almost top 10,000 blog!

Humiliatingly small and eclipsed by the derision of millions.

One way or another, he’s a liar.

The National Guard is not Batman.

The desire to stay informed is directly at odds with the need to not be constantly enraged.

If rights aren’t universal, they are privilege, not rights.

We are builders in a constant struggle with destroyers. keep building.

How stupid are these people?

Shut up, hissy kitty!

Is trump is trying to break black America over his knee? signs point to ‘yes’.

The gop is a fucking disgrace.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Nothing worth doing is easy.

Democracy cannot function without a free press.

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Open Thread:  Hey Lurkers!  (Holiday Post)

Open Threads

You are here: Home / Archives for Open Threads

Whatever Happens…

by @heymistermix.com|  November 5, 20242:50 pm| 91 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

Whatever Happens...

Harris has run a great, almost flawless campaign.

Walz was a great pick, and win or lose, I can’t see that any of the alternatives would have been better.

She took over the Biden campaign apparatus with very little apparent agida.  They’re the A-team and it shows.

Her campaign has quickly seized on Trump’s mis-steps, the garbage comments being the most recent example.

Her social media people are really good, and their impact on the vote via TikTok, Instagram and other outlets that most of us over the age of 40 don’t use is something that will have to be studied by other campaigns.

She was able to campaign with Liz Cheney as well as AOC, and make the most of both of them.

Finally, and most importantly, Kamala, Tim, Doug and Gwen all seemed to be having the times of their lives doing it.

Whatever Happens…Post + Comments (91)

If at first you don’t succeed, try try again

by WaterGirl|  November 5, 202410:30 am| 260 Comments

This post is in: Elections 2024, Open Threads

I heard this a thousand times growing up.  One of my mom’s frequent refrains.

If at first you don’t succeed, try try again.

But my mom also used to say that if you have to cheat to win, it’s not winning.

Unfortunately the orange anti-christ learned the first one, but not the second.

So the folks at Popular Information have teamed up with the More Perfect Union folks to create an election night guide for our 7 swing states – so we can be prepared for how the vote totals will fluctuate as the night progresses.

But let’s build on this.

Maybe we can think of this as hurricane prep.  (Or tornado, earthquake, flood, depending on where you live.)

I bet that at least a few BJ peeps will remember what day each of these states was called – or the time it was called if it was called overnight on election night.  Share your recollections below and I’ll add notes to the states.

Hell, I’ll even add notes to the states if you know useful information that was’t covered.  Then, if it seems like we have a great collection of information I’ll post it again tonight, or put it in the sidebar.

Forewarned is Forearmed

show full post on front page

Pennsylvania

Polls open at 7 a.m. ET in Pennsylvania and close at 8 p.m. ET. Election officials are required to wait until polls open to process mail-in ballots. Pennsylvania is typically slow to report votes due to the high number of mail-in ballots cast in the state. In 2022, “almost a quarter of the total vote” came from mail-in ballots. Since 2020, some counties have purchased new envelope opening machines to speed up the process.

The first reports released shortly after polls close will include mail-in ballots, and will therefore likely lean Democratic. Later reports will also contain votes cast on Election Day, causing the race to tighten. More mail-in ballots will be reported later in the night. If the race is close, it could take multiple days to determine the winner. In 2020, it took four days for President Joe Biden to be determined the winner of the state. Some counties to watch include Erie and Northampton, which both flipped from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020, the AP reported.

In 2020, Biden had a lead as early votes were reported. On Wednesday morning, Trump had gained a lead of “nearly 700,000 votes,” but Biden ultimately won the state as more mail-in votes were counted. In 2020, Trump used this to falsely claim election fraud. As a result, on election night most counties will now be required to announce “how many mail ballots remain to be counted in an effort to forestall conspiracy theories.”

Notes from the Balloon Juice Hive Mind:

geg6: it took 4 days for PA to be called in 2020.  Expected to be shorter than that this year.

bleh: As to PA, I think (link) the counties may PROCESS mail-in ballots — open ’em, get ’em ready to be counted — starting when polls OPEN (7am), but they may not TABULATE them — generate results, or do any audits, etc. — until after polls CLOSE (8pm), so any mail-in results reported early will only have been generated starting at 8pm and therefore likely will be from smaller (red-leaning) counties or ones where glitches or challenges are unlikely. All of which is to say, PA early returns likely are vulnerable to multiple mirages.


North Carolina

In North Carolina, polls open at 6:30 a.m. ET and stay open until 7:30 p.m. ET. The State Board of Elections estimates that “about 98 percent of all ballots” will be “reported by the end of election night.” Because election officials in North Carolina can start counting mail-in ballots before the polls close, the state typically reports votes quickly, but the counting process may be slower this year in areas affected by Hurricane Helene. Legislators also passed a law requiring election officials to wait to count early voting ballots until after polls close, which could slow down the reporting process by around an hour. According to the State Board of Elections, “65 percent of N.C. voters cast their ballots during early voting” in 2020.

After polls close, mail-in ballots are reported. Early voting ballots are reported next, followed by ballots cast on Election Day. Because of this, it is likely that early reports will lean Democratic, but later reports will favor Republicans. In 2022, for example, Senate candidate Cheri Beasley (D) “had a lead of nearly 200,000 votes” half an hour after the polls closed, but by midnight, Republican Senator Ted Budd had overtaken Beasley with “a lead of over 150,000 votes.”

Some counties of interest include Nash and New Hanover, which both flipped from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. Nash and New Hanover are expected to finish counting at 10 p.m. ET and 10:30 p.m. ET, respectively, the AP reported. If the election is close, the state may not be called on Election Day. After election night, election officials count mail-in ballots that arrived on Election Day, ballots from overseas, ballots from military voters, and provisional ballots. In 2020, it took 10 days to call the state for Trump.

Notes from the Balloon Juice Hive Mind:

jeff47: The official NC results will be posted to the NC election dashboard as the data comes in from the counties: https://www.ncsbe.gov/results-data/election-results


Wisconsin

In Wisconsin, polls open at 8 a.m. ET and close at 9 p.m. ET. Election officials in Wisconsin are not permitted to begin processing mail-in ballots until Election Day, causing the state to take longer to report results. Mail-in ballots, which usually lean Democratic, are often reported later in the night or early the next day.

Each Wisconsin municipality can choose to report its results differently, either reporting mail-in ballots at the same time as ballots cast on Election Day, or choosing to report them separately. Milwaukee, for example, reports mail-in ballots after it reports votes cast on Election Day. Some larger Democratic areas, like Milwaukee and Dane, often take longer to count votes. In 2020, Milwaukee reported “nearly 170,000 absentee ballots around 3:30 a.m.” local time. These ballots leaned heavily Democratic and put Biden in the lead.

Notes from the Balloon Juice Hive Mind:


Nevada

In 2020, Nevada was among the slowest states to count their votes. The AP did not officially declare Biden the winner in Nevada until just after noon on November 7, four days after Election Day. While the results are unlikely to be final by the end of Election Day, Nevada has made changes that state election officials hope will speed up the process.

While in 2020 counties had to wait until Election Day to start counting mail-in ballots, they were able to begin counting this year on October 21. Any early votes cast in-person will start being counted at 11 a.m. ET on Election Day, instead of after polls close at 10 p.m. ET. Finally, Clark County, which accounted for 69% of the state’s vote in 2020, has purchased additional equipment to help process ballots faster.

Although Nevada’s polls close at 10 p.m. ET, no results will be released until the last person waiting in line to cast an in-person vote has done so, which could be much later. Nevada also allows mail-in votes postmarked by November 5 to be counted up to four days after Election Day, further delaying final results.

In 2020 and 2022, when mail-in ballots were not counted prior to Election Day, Republican candidates looked dominant early on, but as the mail-in results were reported, their races became tighter and tighter. Now that the mail-in ballots are counted first, a blue mirage might be expected to replace the red one. But Nevada Republicans are voting early in large numbers, which could dampen the blue mirage effect.

Notes from the Balloon Juice Hive Mind:


Michigan

Because Michigan spans two time zones, most of its polls will close at 8 p.m. ET, while some others in counties on the state’s Upper Peninsula will close at 9 p.m. ET. The most important counties in determining Michigan’s final count — Wayne, Oakland, and Washtenaw — all close their polls at 8 p.m. ET.

Like Nevada, Michigan has also changed its election procedures to allow more time for counting mail-in ballots. Michigan towns with more than 5,000 residents can now begin counting ballots up to eight days before the election.

This change will also impact which candidates appear to be in the lead as results come in. In 2020, Trump started with a significant lead over Biden because in-person votes were reported first. But the mail-in results chipped away at that lead until Biden ultimately took over. This year, counting mail-in ballots early could lead to the opposite scenario, where Democrats seem to have the advantage initially, but lose it as more results come in.

Notes from the Balloon Juice Hive Mind:


Georgia

In Georgia, where early in-person voting is popular (state officials expect it to account for 65-70% of the vote total), election workers cannot start counting early votes until 7 AM on Election Day. These votes, as well as early mail-in ballots (expected to be about 5% of the vote) must be totaled by 8 PM, one hour after polls close.

The blue mirage from these early votes has been known to last for hours in Georgia. In the state’s 2022 senate race, Democrat Raphael Warnock held a 40-point lead for two hours until it dipped to less than a 1-point lead over Republican Herschel Walker.

In 2020, Biden beat Trump in Georgia by less than half of a percentage point, and the race was not called by the AP until November 19. Final results could be slow to materialize again this year. The state saw 21,000 requests for overseas or military absentee ballots, which Georgia will count up to three days after the election if they are postmarked by November 5. In 2020, Biden beat Trump by about half as many votes.

Notes from the Balloon Juice Hive Mind:


Arizona

In Arizona, polling locations will be open from 8 AM Eastern to 9 PM Eastern. The first batch of results, released around 10 PM Eastern, will include any mail-in ballots or in-person votes that were cast and counted before Election Day.

Once the early voting results are released, votes cast in-person on Election Day will be reported in the hours after polls close. The final votes to be counted and reported will be mail-in ballots dropped off too close to Election Day to be counted in advance. According to the AP, about 20% of mail-in ballots in Maricopa County, where most of the state lives, were dropped off on Election Day in 2020.

Typically, results from early voting and mail-in ballots favor Democrats, meaning Arizona results tend to see a blue mirage after the first batch of results is reported, which fades as the votes cast on Election Day are counted. In 2022 for example, Democratic Senator Mark Kelly started election night with a 20-point lead over challenger Blake Masters, but that lead dwindled to five points as results continued rolling in.

Arizona Republicans, however, have voted early in larger numbers than in 2020, while Democrats’ numbers are down. This could mean that Arizona’s blue mirage doesn’t materialize this year.

Notes from the Balloon Juice Hive Mind:

 


 

If at first you don’t succeed, try try againPost + Comments (260)

Tuesday Morning Open Thread: All We Can Do

by Anne Laurie|  November 5, 20247:30 am| 346 Comments

This post is in: Elections 2024, Kamala Harris for President, Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat

Kamala Harris could've easily worked in a shot at Trump here but instead she didn't even so much as allude to him. She's turning the page. pic.twitter.com/c2ZHa7CQF3

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) November 4, 2024

Spread this far and wide! pic.twitter.com/iL86j70ojU

— Ally Sammarco (@Ally_Sammarco) November 5, 2024

Tim Walz just gave a rousing speech in Milwaukee without mentioning Donald Trump's name a single time

[image or embed]

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar.bsky.social) November 4, 2024 at 7:34 PM

If you encounter violence, threats, or intimidation at a polling place, call 911 immediately. After alerting local authorities, report the incident to the Justice Department.

For election-related complaints, contact the FBI: https://t.co/psjiI0c3qy pic.twitter.com/XyBx2H1Doz

— U.S. Department of Justice (@TheJusticeDept) November 4, 2024

"The @JoeBiden Administration promised to be pro-worker and pro-union, and it has fulfilled that promise. VP @KamalaHarris has played a major role in making this happen."

Here's how…https://t.co/bYfr2Wp9dJ

— UAW (@UAW) November 2, 2024

Want to watch election night like a professional? Here’s how to understand the results as they come in from different states. pic.twitter.com/yXoxPh8aiz

— The Associated Press (@AP) November 2, 2024

Either this post will be at top-of-page for the next six hours, or there will be a spatter of bigfooting where we all fall over each other’s Hawt Taeks. Who’s taking the odds?
Tuesday Morning Open Thread 16

(Matt Davies via GoComics.com)

Tuesday Morning Open Thread: All We Can DoPost + Comments (346)

Open Thread: Dawn Always Arrives, Eventually

by Anne Laurie|  November 5, 20244:29 am| 154 Comments

This post is in: Elections 2024, Kamala Harris for President, Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat, Republicans in Disarray!, Trumpery

They released a version of the "secret vote" ad for men.

[image or embed]

— Matt Novak (@paleofuture.bsky.social) November 3, 2024 at 11:29 AM

Friendly reminder that from now until Wednesday, we are living in the metaphorical equivalent of an airport lounge. Calories don't count. Money doesn't matter. No one will judge you for having a beer at 10am.

— Katie Howland (@katieshowland) November 4, 2024

Riot fencing is being installed in DC ahead of the election. This isn’t normal and the press needs to be clear why. Trump incited a violent insurrection and continues to present an ongoing threat to our democracy. The security measures are entirely due to the danger he presents. https://t.co/8kebeyx5uf

— Matt McDermott (@mattmfm) November 3, 2024

Mighty thin crowd https://t.co/QQBcbHYe48

— Darius Rocker (@drocker875) November 4, 2024

Lots of people were leaving the Trump rally early today. pic.twitter.com/YstB4DNPPc

— The Good Liars (@TheGoodLiars) November 4, 2024

show full post on front page

pic.twitter.com/5fd6gd2xOV

— chekovian jubilee (@CollieYimby) November 4, 2024

imagine you think you’re going to a beatles concert and it’s just ringo singing octopus’s garden for two hours

[image or embed]

— not an art thief (@famousartthief.bsky.social) November 3, 2024 at 4:49 PM

Wow. Trump is basically a washed up lounge act at this point. Just… pathetic. pic.twitter.com/t9ZoxGrTes

— BadgerStew (@BadgerStew) November 2, 2024

Maybe people really are just sick of him https://t.co/3dlWKD5fh8

— chekovian jubilee (@CollieYimby) November 4, 2024

I don’t think unleashing RFK’s crankery or calling Puerto Ricans garbage helped, but as I keep saying the real October surprise is that Republicans started talking about their policy agenda — ACA/CHIPS repeal, “temporary hardship” for you + huge tax breaks for Elon Musk. https://t.co/hqKV7uwpdA

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) November 3, 2024

Voters of Iowa, you have an opportunity to do the funniest thing in the history of mankind pic.twitter.com/QnILrxJbhS

— Liam Nissan™ (@theliamnissan) November 3, 2024

Counter-argument:

"Donald Trump spends four years staging an elaborate criminal scheme involving hundreds or even thousands of actors to subvert the 2024 election only for it to not matter at all because he clearly loses Iowa at 10 PM ET and concedes before bed" is THE funniest possible outcome

— knife-wielding hemophiliac (@NickTagliaferro) November 2, 2024

Open Thread: Dawn Always Arrives, Eventually

(Jack Ohman via GoComics.com)

Open Thread: Dawn Always Arrives, EventuallyPost + Comments (154)

War for Ukraine Day 985: We Now Know Exactly What Putin’s Terms Were in 2022

by Adam L Silverman|  November 4, 20248:21 pm| 25 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Foreign Policy, Military, Open Threads, Russia, Silverman on Security, War, War in Ukraine

Two quick housekeeping notes. First, Rosie is still doing great. Thank you for all the good thoughts, well wishes, prayers, and donations.

Second, there’s a lot going on and I know everyone is on edge regarding tomorrow’s election. I’m going to try to keep this as brief as possible tonight. And I will be very happy if tomorrow night or, Wednesday night, I have to write that I am very, very, very glad that my assessment of what was likely to happen did not.

Before we start I want to note an unfortunate anniversary. Today is the 29th anniversary of the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. I’d only been back from Scotland for about two months and I remember walking into the house and my dad sitting on the arm of the soda just sobbing. I asked what happened, what’s wrong and he just kept gesturing at the TV with his right hand as CNN was running its breaking news coverage.

Rabin was not perfect and there was no guarantee that his vision for Israel and the Palestinians would have worked had he not been assassinated. But it would definitely be better than what we have now with the man responsible for inspiring the assassination continuing to serve as Israel’s Prime Minister while one of the young extremists who had been trying to assassinate Rabin serves as the Israeli Minister of National Security and has subverted Israel’s police.

💥PM Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated 29 years ago today. pic.twitter.com/uGTrusA63p

— Noga Tarnopolsky נגה טרנופולסקי نوغا ترنوبولسكي (@NTarnopolsky) November 4, 2024

That’s a very young Itamar Ben-Gvir in the lower left holding the hood ornament of Rabin’s official vehicle. He, along with a number of his violent extremist buddies, had broken through the security cordon around Rabin’s vehicle in the days leading up to the assassination and since he couldn’t get his hands on Rabin, he broke the hood ornament off as a trophy and then boasted to the news media that they got to the car, they would get to Rabin. In the bottom right is one of the incendiary images that were everywhere at Bibi’s campaign rallies. The other ones were Rabin’s face superimposed on Arafat’s head. Bibi’s incitement and Ben-Gvir’s extremism won that day and have been winning every day since.

Here is President Zelenskyy’s address from earlier today. Video below, English transcript after the jump.

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We’re Seeing an Increase in the Number of North Koreans, Not an Increase in Our Partners’ Response – Address by the President

4 November 2024 – 20:38

I wish you health, fellow Ukrainians!

Briefly about this day.

Military briefings were given by Commander-in-Chief Syrskyi, Chief of the General Staff Barhylevych, and Ukraine’s Defense Minister Umerov. The current combat situation across all fronts was discussed, with particular attention, of course, to the Donetsk directions. Although we are also seeing Russian activity in the south of Ukraine. The Defense Forces must ensure a response. Today, we discussed the Kursk operation separately. It will soon be three months of our active operations in the Kursk region. And this is important, as we keep this “sanitary zone” in designated areas near our state border. It is essential to recognize the significance of this operation – Kursk operation – in replenishing our “exchange fund.” It helped a lot to liberate our people from Russian captivity. I thank all the soldiers, sergeants, and officers involved in our active operations in the Kursk region. Today, there was also a separate report from the Defense Intelligence of Ukraine and the Foreign Intelligence Service on the North Korean troops in the territory of Russia. There are already 11,000 of them in the Kursk region. We are seeing an increase in North Koreans but, unfortunately, not an increase in our partners’ response.

Today, I also held a meeting of the Staff. A key issue discussed was air defense. Everyone can see how much more the Russians are using “Shaheds” and aerial bombs. This terror is increasing every month. We need more countermeasures. This includes strengthening mobile fire groups, introducing the real practice of shooting down “Shaheds” with drones, and developing our forces in such a way as to finally solve the problem of Russian aerial bombs. There are urgent decisions that need to be implemented. And there are also more strategic matters that will be taken into account in Ukraine’s internal Strengthening Plan, in the relevant defense clause. Today, there were also many questions about increasing the production of our weapons, primarily drones and missiles. We are expanding contracts for Ukrainian manufacturers and creating long-term opportunities for them to produce these weapons and invest in developing such manufacturing. Relevant instructions have been given to the Defense Minister and the Staff.

And a few more things.

I had a conversation with the President of Moldova. I congratulated Maia Sandu on winning the election and, in general, on the fact that Moldova’s commitment to true sovereignty has stood the test. For all the countries in our region, real security, real social justice, and real poverty alleviation are only possible through true integration into the common European space. The European Union is a global actor, one of the most attractive markets in the world, and a genuine defender of human rights and opportunities for every community. Of course, there are various internal issues and contradictions in Europe as well. But a choice – when it is a European choice – is always a choice in favor of a normal life. Something that has never existed and will never exist under regimes like the one in Moscow. Therefore, it is important that Moldova remains with Europe, and we in Ukraine are always ready to support our friends on the path of integration.

Today I spoke with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. I thanked him for supporting our country and our people. Recently, our team presented the details of the Victory Plan in Canada. Canada supports the Victory Plan – both the motives of Ukraine and the urgency of this plan. I thanked him for the conference held in Canada on the return of all our prisoners and deportees. Adults and children.

I also had a meeting in Kyiv with German Foreign Minister Baerbock. I thanked her for all of Germany’s support for Ukraine. We discussed the current situation in Europe as a whole and in our region, focusing on how to put pressure on Russia to bring peace closer.

And one more thing. Today is a professional holiday for almost two hundred thousand Ukrainians – all employees of Ukrainian Railways. I had the opportunity to congratulate them and thank them. Please, let’s not forget to always express gratitude to people like them – those who work in such essential sectors that keep everything else in the country running. I am proud of our people!

Glory to Ukraine!

Thanks to the excellent reporters at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and at Meduza, we now know what Putin’s terms were in 2022:

That’s a remarkable document. Essentially, a blueprint for Ukraine’s destruction as a state: no army, no weapons, communist symbols, Russian as state language and UA pays for the reconstruction of Donbas that then goes to Russia. Full control, but for freehttps://t.co/MNN1FjYTJJ

— Eugene Finkel (@eugene_finkel) November 4, 2024

Here’s some excerpts:

RFE/RL’s Russian investigative unit Systema has obtained a copy of Russia’s initial proposal for a “peace agreement” with Ukraine, which the Kremlin drafted shortly after launching its full-scale war against the country in 2022. The document reveals exactly what Russia was seeking in the full-scale war’s first weeks and how it envisioned Ukraine’s future if it surrendered. Meduza shares an abridged translation of Systema’s report on the previously unpublished proposal, what it shows about Putin’s intentions, and how Russia’s demands evolved in the subsequent months as it failed to achieve its goals on the battlefield.

Journalists from Systema have obtained the earliest known document in which Moscow laid out its demands for Ukraine after launching the full-scale invasion. Russia presented the proposal, which contains a list of conditions for a ceasefire and peace agreement, to Ukraine’s delegation during the countries’ third round of talks in Belarus on March 7, 2022. Systema received the document from a Ukrainian source familiar with the course of the negotiations and a source from the Russian side verified its authenticity.

The first official meeting between Russian and Ukrainian negotiators took place just a few days after the start of the full-scale war. The Ukrainian delegation, led by Verkhovna Rada deputy Davyd Arakhamia, traveled to Poland before taking a helicopter to Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko’s Lyaskovichi Residence near the Polish-Belarusian border. There, the group met with a Russian delegation led by Putin aide Vladimir Medinsky.

The document consists of six pages containing the draft agreement’s main text and four pages of attachments. The proposal’s 18 articles touch on a wide range of issues, including requirements for Ukraine’s neutrality, border placement, and humanitarian concerns such as language, religion, and history.

The proposal was written long before Russia’s annexation of four Ukrainian regions in September 2022 and does not include the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions. However, it does include Russia’s long-standing demand for Ukraine to fully forgo any claims to Crimea and Sevastopol as well as the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

In the initial version of this “peace agreement,” Russia also insisted on the near-total disarmament of Ukraine under Moscow’s supervision, the country’s isolation from Western assistance, and the long-term stationing of Russian troops on the territories captured in the war’s first weeks. Some of these demands remained unchanged throughout the entire negotiations process.

In early March, the Ukrainian delegation tentatively agreed to what appears to have been Russia’s main demand: to become a “permanently neutral state” that would never join NATO or allow foreign troops to be stationed on its territory. Throughout the negotiation process in 2022, until its suspension in April, this point remained unchanged and was not disputed by either side.

After comparing this version of the proposed agreement with later ones, Systema’s journalists were able to identify multiple points that either disappeared from the document, were heavily modified, or that Ukraine’s delegation began refusing to discuss altogether. These details make clear just how extensive Russia’s demands were.

Russia’s initial demands

  • The Ukrainian army must be reduced to a minimum: 50,000 people, including 1,500 officers (five times smaller than Ukraine’s existing army in 2022).
  • Ukraine must not “develop, produce, invent, or deploy on its territory any missile weapons of any type with a range greater than 250 kilometers.” Russia also reserves the right to ban Ukraine from using “any other types of weapons that may be developed as a result of scientific research” in the future.
  • Ukraine must “recognize the independence” of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk “people’s republics,” including all of the territory within the borders of Ukraine’s Donetsk and Luhansk regions (despite the fact that Russia controlled only part of these territories, as is still the case today).
  • Ukraine must assume the costs of repairing all of the infrastructure in Donbas that had been destroyed since 2014.
  • Ukraine and its partners must lift all sanctions against Russia and withdraw all lawsuits filed against Russia since 2014.
  • Ukraine must make Russian an official state language and restore all of the property rights of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.
  • Ukraine must “repeal of and permanently ban any prohibitions of symbols associated with victory over Nazism”; in other words, it must re-legalize Soviet and communist symbols.

Essentially the only things Russia offered Ukraine in this initial proposal were a “ceasefire regime” and “measures to halt combat operations.” There was no mention of any withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukrainian territory; Russia only committed to not occupying territory beyond what it already controlled.

At the same time, Moscow wanted Ukraine to withdraw all its forces to their permanent bases (or to places “designated by Russia”), and for Kyiv’s foreign partners to immediately end all assistance to Ukraine and withdraw any personnel involved with Ukrainian troops, including military advisors.

Russian troops, as well as national guard forces, were to remain in place until “all of the requirements of this agreement” were fulfilled. Since these requirements included large-scale legislative changes, disarmament, and international guarantees, the agreement could feasibly have seen the Russian army stationed near Kyiv for years. Russia also proposed taking control of the troop withdrawal process, allowing for the involvement of Ukraine and, if necessary, the U.N. Secretary-General.

Much more at the link.

What Putin was trying to achieve her was capitulation providing Russia de facto control over Ukraine. This fits with what was observable in February 2022. Specifically, that Putin had wagered that Russian forces could make a speed run to Kyiv, seize, and hold it very quickly while his special forces captured as many Ukrainian national, regional, and municipal officials possible. These officials would be needed to sign the very official documents placing Putin’s Ukrainian surrogates into power and establishing the de facto devolution of Ukrainian sovereignty to Russia. All done in front of US and European news media. When that failed, he then tried to achieve those goals through negotiations in the late winter and spring of 2022.

Which brings us to now:

There’s no such thing as the “goals of the special military operation,” according to a source familiar with Putin’s position on the negotiations process: these “goals” will be whatever Putin decides is necessary for him to declare victory at the moment he decides to end the war. “If he wants, he’ll say he created a land corridor to Crimea and reclaimed ’Novorossiya’; if he prefers instead, he’ll say that he destroyed all of Ukraine’s energy infrastructure. He can declare any outcome he chooses to be his victory and the achievement of his goals, at any moment.”

The only question is when Putin will decide to end the war — and what battlefield conditions are necessary for this to happen.

In the summer of 2024, the Russian president said that for any negotiations to begin, Ukraine must agree that Crimea as well as the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia regions are part of Russia. A source familiar with Putin’s current position on negotiations told Systema that after the Ukrainian military’s cross-border offensive in Russia’s Kursk region, Putin has been actively conveying to his inner circle that Russia will fight until Ukraine capitulates completely.

That’s never going to sell in Ukraine.

Russia’s “peace plan” demands Ukraine reduce its military to 50,000 (ask yourself why), adopt Russian as official, and pay reparations for Donbas. The West to lift post-2014 sanctions. It’s easy to call Zelensky’s plan unrealistic, but where’s the same scrutiny for Russia’s plan?

— Tatarigami_UA (@Tatarigami_UA) November 4, 2024

Okay, @RFERL has obtained a doc describing a “peace treaty” that Russia offered to Ukraine in March 2022, namely on March 7 — on the full-scale invasion’s day 10, when it became crystal clear that the initial blitz plan was going off the rails and that Russian invasion forces…

— Illia Ponomarenko 🇺🇦 (@IAPonomarenko) November 4, 2024

Okay, @RFERL has obtained a doc describing a “peace treaty” that Russia offered to Ukraine in March 2022, namely on March 7 — on the full-scale invasion’s day 10, when it became crystal clear that the initial blitz plan was going off the rails and that Russian invasion forces had stalled at Kyiv.

Here’s what they demanded:

– Ukrainian armed forces of just up to 50,000 (including just 35,000 in the ground – forces), including 1,500 commissioned officers.
– No more than 300 tanks and 700 IFVs and APCs
– No more than 400 artillery pieces, rocket systems, and tubed pieces, and mortars.
– No more than 70 airplanes and 55 helicopters
– No more than 4 warships
– No missiles with an effective range of over 250 km
– Ukrainian “neutrality”
– Reparations to Russia for ruined infrastructure in Ukraine’s Donbas, where Russia had waged an undeclared war on Ukraine since 2024
– Ukraine recognizing the ‘independence’ of Russian-controlled puppet pseudo-states in Donbas
– Russian as an official language in Ukraine
– All assets held by the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine reinstated
– Permanent Russian occupation and military presence in all territories seized after February 2022, including the close outskirts of Kyiv, until Russia considers that all of its demands are fulfilled
– No international sanctions
– No Western defense aid to Ukraine

What Ukraine would have gotten in return:

– Nothing.

No Russian formal obligations other than assurances of no further advances in the occupation of Ukrainian territory as long as Russia considers the “ceasefire treaty” carefully fulfilled by Ukraine.

Let me tell you what this all is called: unconditional surrender. And turning Ukraine back into a Kremlin-controlled, defenseless client state, with a Russian soldier boot pressing its throat.

Moreover, this had been a Russian demand for unconditional surrender 22 days before Russian forces were eventually withdrawn from the Kyiv area as a result of a military defeat and the failure of the “special military operation’s” foremost objective.

To call THAT “just peace” or say “Ukraine had a chance for peace” over THAT, one needs to be simply extraordinarily incompetent or just full of shit.

Or both.

Unfortunately, Olaf Scholz has an even worse peace proposal:

2/ The (unofficially) voiced proposal comes amid talk in Berlin of setting up a “contact group” together with China, India and Brazil to negotiate a peace solution with Russia.

Giving Ukraine a NATO membership perspective would make such peace talks impossible, the thinking goes

— Hans von der Burchard (@vonderburchard) November 4, 2024

4/ Notably, Finland’s ambassador in Berlin, Kai Sauer, speaks up to oppose the idea: “It is not in our interest to restore any artificial spheres of interest”, he told me.

We are “obliged to respect the freedom of choice” of Ukraine, “as well as its territorial integrity.”

— Hans von der Burchard (@vonderburchard) November 4, 2024

Scholz is so afraid of taking necessary action that he won’t call the fire department while his own shoes are on fire. Yes, Ukraine should “be like Finland” — Finland just joined NATO! https://t.co/P0l5IDUhfL

— Garry Kasparov (@Kasparov63) November 4, 2024

By all means, let’s have Ukraine capitulate to these fine folks:

Russia is increasingly deploying unidentified gas in its latest chemical warfare tactic against Ukrainian troops, who are losing ground across the hotspots of the eastern front line, writes @AsamiTerajima. https://t.co/IAGQZW3fDY

— The Kyiv Independent (@KyivIndependent) November 3, 2024

From The Kyiv Independent:

Russia is increasingly deploying unidentified gas in its latest chemical warfare tactic against Ukrainian troops, who are losing ground across the hotspots of the eastern front line.

Ukraine is currently unable to identify the majority of the gas used on the battlefield, compared to previous months when it could diagnose about half of the chemicals, according to Ukrainian Colonel Artem Vlasiuk.

Russian troops have used chemical agents banned in warfare as a psychological operation to sow panic among the Ukrainian forces, said Vlasiuk from the Support Forces’ Radiation, Chemical and Biological Protection Command, a branch of the army responsible for inspecting chemical warfare.

Russian drones throw gas grenades into dugouts or trenches in a brutal tactic to force Ukrainian soldiers out into the open field, making them easy prey for drone or artillery attacks.

Of the 323 recorded cases of Russia’s chemical attacks in October, nearly all except 15 incidents were “unidentified,” Vlasiuk told the Kyiv Independent on Oct. 28.

The officer said that Ukraine struggled to identify the new types of gas because it lacked sophisticated high-end detector technology to diagnose beyond the few prototypes in its library.

“It is dangerous both for our troops and for Ukraine as a whole, which will not be able to prove anything at the international level,” Vlasiuk said.

Ukraine needs “hundreds” of complex detectors that cost $100,000 to $600,000 each to better identify what exactly is being used by Russian troops, according to the colonel. Kyiv also needs additional simpler ones already being used to identify whether there are “dangerous chemicals,” he said.

The insufficient number of detectors to identify gas makes it harder for Ukraine to record what Russian troops are deploying, in what quantity and in which parts of the front line, Vlasiuk added.

The colonel said gaining Western interest in providing these sophisticated detectors to Ukraine has proven difficult. Other resources seen as more crucial, such as ammunition, are usually considered the priority.

Discussions are held at venues such as the Ramstein format meetings, also known as the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, which are held nearly monthly, he added. The upcoming one, delayed last month, is scheduled for November in a virtual conference call format.

Identifying chemical agents is “very easy” with the right detectors, according to Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, former commanding officer of the U.K.’s Joint Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear Regiment. He estimated that Ukraine might need “a few hundred” hand-held detectors that cost roughly $10,000 to $50,000 each.

More at the link.

Moldova:

Moldova, today you are victorious. Together, we’ve shown the strength of our unity, democracy, and commitment to a dignified future.

Thank you, dear Moldovans, at home and abroad. Walk with pride—you are freedom, hope, and resilience. I am proud to serve you all. pic.twitter.com/yGGlrjAMEC

— Maia Sandu (@sandumaiamd) November 3, 2024

Kyiv:

When Ukrainians say that the war has changed their daily routine, they mean it.

When Ukrainians say that the war is still ongoing, they also mean it – Russia’s attacks against Ukrainian people continue every single day. pic.twitter.com/HZuxnnNaLz

— MFA of Ukraine 🇺🇦 (@MFA_Ukraine) November 3, 2024

Kharkiv:

These minutes Kharkiv is under massive russian aerial attack!!! Multiple explosions reported in the city!

— Iryna Voichuk (@IrynaVoichuk) November 4, 2024

These new ones flew into Sumy

— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) November 4, 2024

Here’s the full text of the first tweet:

Two barrages of Russian glide bombs just struck Kharkiv, and they are going to fire again in a couple of seconds, according to monitoring channels. We are powerless to do anything, including reach the shelter in such a limited time. So we are just hiding in our bathrooms or corridors, hoping to survive.

Russia is trying to turn Kharkiv into a ghost city, forcing us to leave. They are bombing our homes, destroying our infrastructure, killing people in their beds and on the streets, and bombing our food stores and markets. Yet, as every day before, we got up, cleaned the rubble,… pic.twitter.com/MQbbVGcwGv

— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) November 4, 2024

Russia is trying to turn Kharkiv into a ghost city, forcing us to leave. They are bombing our homes, destroying our infrastructure, killing people in their beds and on the streets, and bombing our food stores and markets. Yet, as every day before, we got up, cleaned the rubble, and carried on.

Last night:

Yesterday evening in Kharkiv. Police pov. pic.twitter.com/3AgnUDCsGk

— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) November 4, 2024

Video of one of Kharkiv’s supermarkets after tonight’s russian glide bomb attack. At least 14 people got injured pic.twitter.com/MUpEZFttCP

— Kate from Kharkiv (@BohuslavskaKate) November 4, 2024

Kupiansk, Kharkiv Oblast:

Last night, russian forces targeted an apartment building in Kivsharivka, Kupiansk district of Kharkiv Oblast, with an aerial bomb. Three lives are feared lost, buried under rubble as relentless shelling stalls rescuers. pic.twitter.com/RodTx0ZZWM

— Iryna Voichuk (@IrynaVoichuk) November 4, 2024

Vovchansk:

Ruins of the 350-year-old city of Vovchansk, completely destroyed by the so-called Russian army during their unsuccessful offensive in the Kharkiv region. Just six months ago, this thriving town was home to thousands of people. pic.twitter.com/F7z81KJiZJ

— WarTranslated (Dmitri) (@wartranslated) November 3, 2024

Not sure where in Ukraine this is:

Rare footage of eight GBU-39 Small Diameter Bombs launched by Ukrainian MiG-29 on Russian positions. https://t.co/RGfOJ1yLJZ pic.twitter.com/T4bHTrm8zJ

— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) November 4, 2024

That’s enough for tonight.

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Open thread!

War for Ukraine Day 985: We Now Know Exactly What Putin’s Terms Were in 2022Post + Comments (25)

Relentless Positivity Open Thread: No More Handmaids

by Anne Laurie|  November 4, 20245:22 pm| 194 Comments

This post is in: Elections 2024, Kamala Harris for President, Open Threads, Proud to Be A Democrat, Women's Rights Are Human Rights

STOCKPILE - No More Handmaidens

(Mike Luckovich via GoComics.com)

On Saturday, in a fierce show of support for Kamala Harris, thousands of women marched in Washington, D.C. and across the country. ???????????????? pic.twitter.com/qV3HdxIx1F

— Bill Madden (@maddenifico) November 3, 2024

"why do we need an ad telling women that their vote is private"

Meanwhile on Fox: https://t.co/yBXjb2sr8V

— ??Dante Atkins?? (@DanteAtkins) October 31, 2024

When your marriage is rock solid

[image or embed]

— Molly Knight (@mollyknight.bsky.social) November 1, 2024 at 11:08 AM

As I wrote yesterday, "The word reflects a larger tendency of Trump and his followers to see women not as people, but as property of men, especially powerful white men." https://t.co/DNmtrstQm2 https://t.co/Dlhxc6zcuZ

— Amanda Marcotte (@AmandaMarcotte) November 2, 2024

This happened to me in NC last week. The man told us his wife was napping and couldn’t come to the door. https://t.co/NfJ03y4Bgl

— Neera Tanden?? (@neeratanden) November 2, 2024

STOCKPILE - No More Handmaidens 2

(John Deering via GoComics.com)

show full post on front page

This actually tracks, and not just for women. It isn’t so much husbands women fear as people generally knowing they’ve violated community norms. The fusion of politics with religion makes the stakes very high. Extremely hard to stand up against Trump when you’ll be accused of… https://t.co/cZzBidN6lr

— Brent Orrell (@OrrellAEI) October 31, 2024

My wife is from rural central PA. The community is quite stable, lots of great support from neighbors. But the price of inclusion is conformity. Being outside that circle is extremely risky from a psychological standpoint.

— Brent Orrell (@OrrellAEI) October 31, 2024

It is a habit formed in the pews where pastors and other leaders are very concerned about policing theological boundaries. It is a religious sociology applied to politics.

— Brent Orrell (@OrrellAEI) October 31, 2024

This post and the ad it is based on is getting the response it is getting is because being a petty tyrant over at least your family, and then moving that circle outward, is the basis of most of conservative politics. https://t.co/yiz2Flrz2m

— A. Bartaway????????? (@Bartaway) October 30, 2024

I agree with this. A personal anecdote: a female relative who has never voted for Democrats told me today that she was voting for Harris. I asked why. Abortion. Horrified by what she's learned about the state-level bans. https://t.co/o8JuCZC3xP

— Alex גדעון בן װעלװל (@JewishWonk) November 4, 2024

if it turns out that we (harris) win, and that it was due to a shift with women voters, remember that "should women vote?" was absolutely not a question serious people were entertaining in 2016 and it's visible as discourse in 2024. who knows if it'll be enough but it is a thing

— cai (@AnneNotation) November 3, 2024

"Women are not without electoral or political power." https://t.co/AFjDTCXRQo

— Molly Jong-Fast (@MollyJongFast) November 4, 2024

Trump’s hatred of women is bolder and clearer than ever. There’s no turning back now, Republican misogyny has long lost the woman vote. See you next Tuesday, Donald. pic.twitter.com/2BE6waAAbK

— The Lincoln Project (@ProjectLincoln) November 4, 2024

STOCKPILE - No More Handmaidens 1

(Matt Davies via GoComics.com)

Relentless Positivity Open Thread: No More HandmaidsPost + Comments (194)

I Refuse to Learn About the Martyred MAGA Porn Squirrel

by Rose Judson|  November 4, 20243:40 pm| 132 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Republican Stupidity, Assholes

Like everyone who gives a shit about the fate of the republic, I am way Too Online at the moment. But to preserve one’s sanity, one must draw a line somewhere. Over the weekend I began to see posts about a squirrel named Peanut, and how MAGA influencers were apparently up in arms about it being euthanized by government agents, calling it a martyr every bit as innocent as our lord Jesus Christ, and I have to stop typing this sentence here because, you know, I fuckin’ can’t. I don’t want to know about it.

But social media persists on putting more details about Peanut the squirrel in front of me, because the story has bobbed up to the very top of the septic tank GOP ticket:

“Democrats killed the Elon Musk of squirrels” what the fuck are we doing here
bsky.app/profile/mari…

[image or embed]

— Michael Hobbes (@michaelhobbes.bsky.social) November 4, 2024 at 7:12 PM

I don’t know what the fuck we are doing here, Michael Hobbes. I am much more confident of an unambiguous win for the Democrats than I was three weeks ago. However, like most of you, I am gnawed by the existential dread. If the Rough Beast gets back in the White House, I will resign myself to becoming a British citizen at last and living away from most of my family for the foreseeable future. I will be terrified for my LGBT relatives, particularly the T ones, and for all LGBT Americans. If Social Security is cut, my parents will lose a key income stream, and I may have to try to get them over here. The Child could lose her birthright citizenship. And so on.

“It’s funny when you think about it, because if Trump wins, Peanut’s owner won’t be able to make money on Only Fans because Project 2025 will ban porn.”

:the attendant swabbing my burning forehead with a cloth in 8th century Byzantium: “She has been delirious and babbling all night my lord.”

— Jessica Ritchey (@jmritchey.bsky.social) November 4, 2024 at 7:28 PM

But the dread isn’t all that we’ll have to handle. We’ll have to cope with news organizations and well-meaning historians or journalists we follow constantly elevating and giving airtime to whatever imagined grievances the worst people in the nation are obsessing about today. You all remember what it was like when he was president, even before COVID. Everything he or his coterie of paranoid dipshits were fixated on was in our faces. It was like being under house arrest awaiting a trial while some asshole honked showtunes at you through a spit-filled kazoo.

learning about the homoerotic onlyfans maga squirrel rabies euthanisation

if this is your activation codeword i’m sorry

— tef (@tef.bsky.social) November 4, 2024 at 8:00 PM

I don’t have the bandwidth for their bullshit. Dealing with the fallout from a Project 2025-powered second Trump administration would, if it came to pass, be difficult enough. So over the next few days, I am muting every possible keyword about Peanut the Martyred MAGA Porn Squirrel. Hopefully well before the end of the week we’ll all know that we never have to “be informed” about  another one of these losers’ hate fantasies ever again.

That is, unless it is really, really funny to us.

Open thread for any topic EXCEPT the martyred MAGA porn squirrel. I beg of you.

I Refuse to Learn About the Martyred MAGA Porn SquirrelPost + Comments (132)

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